Honestly, I can't run, I can't spam/backpedal/do any footwork, I am less accurate and draw my bow with much more time than every agi archer, and I do less damage. The only good thing is the trajectory of the arrow. Well played there, I trade damage, moving speed, acuraccy, drawing time, wpf in melee for a better missile speed.You do more damage, especially compared to a build of your same level and dedication, even your own screenshots show that. You haven't made a good comparison if you're comparing a level 30 build to a level 35 build; complaining about the difference in effectiveness is pointless. The only thing you've done, is proven what has already been proven, that levels matter more than anything else. It's not a problem with archery (although it's largest with archery), it's a problem with all level 33+ builds(and we are trying to address it.)
Look at the medium damage, and the effective wpf, 27/15 got two times less effective wpf than 18/24, and three less times than 18/30. Still 27/15 isn't doing anything better about anything related to damage. I didn't test 21/24, 24/24, or other dedicated archer builds, since those two ones were enough to show the bullshit going on.
I'm simply tired to see any archer with a horn bow doing more damage than me with 9 PD. Lost Something around 90 millions of XP to respec to that shit, before it gets destroyed. If you balancers can't be arsed to solve internal balance into archery by making strenght ranged builds somewhat viable, at least, give me a free respec. Nothing personal, but I'm somehow pissed off to see my arrows scratching on anything better than a mail.
Note that this problem related to Power draw is also true for Power Throw. When I see the damages from Fin (15/24), and Mendro (30/15), I truly ask myself if that's even worth to play anything outside of the mainstream builds like 18/24.
QQ, mod iz dead.
I perfectly knew this thread would be somehow carefully ignored.The only people to have replied are those whose attention you actually need to get. I'm sorry that you don't like that fact that we saw a flaw in your analysis and pointed it out. You have two options though, either prove that your analysis is correct, which will be met with the balance change you desire, or continue to say stuff like the above, without actually accomplishing anything.
It's probably easier to analyze this by just comparing the gains from +3STR/+1PD vs +3AGI/+1WM from a balanced starting point.The only thing I would disagree with (aside from you not using bodkins, which should favor the str build more) would be your last two sentences. One could easily come up with varying hypothetical scenarios that serve to benefit one build over the other, based on factors like how much cavalry there is, whether or not cav can access all locations close to the fighting, how large the map is (what your effective visual range/field of view is), archer:infantry ratios of both teams, whether or not you have any sort of protection.
Base (18/18, 6PD 6WM)(click to show/hide)
STR (21/18, 7PD 6WM)(click to show/hide)
AGI (18/21, 6PD 7WM)(click to show/hide)
Here's the summary:
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By going Strength, you gain 12% damage and lose 11% WPF
By going Agi, you gain 4% damage and gain 13% WPF
So the Strength character has 8% more damage per arrow than the Agi character, but 21% less WPF
Archery is kind of weird though. More damage is always good, but at some point you have enough WPF to consistently hit typical shots on stationary targets, and then it really doesn't matter much above that. I honestly haven't played enough archer since coming back to tell where that WPF threshold after all the changes that have happened.
It does seem like Agi is clearly superior to Str until you hit that threshhold, though. Especially considering the benefits from agility (athletics, riding/HA, secondary weapon WPF) far outweigh the benefits from strength (HP, PS) for a typical archer.
The only people to have replied are those whose attention you actually need to get. I'm sorry that you don't like that fact that we saw a flaw in your analysis and pointed it out. You have two options though, either prove that your analysis is correct, which will be met with the balance change you desire, or continue to say stuff like the above, without actually accomplishing anything.
In light of what we see as a flawed analysis, we cannot merely take your word on it (succumb to bias), without sacrificing Intellectual Honesty (act in opposition of the apparent facts.) Sorry.
Tell me how to prove what I say, and I may do it. If you tell me what I have to do to convince you to buff/rebalance archery, I will be happy to do it. As I don't have any software to make ingame videos, I can ask someone who is willing to help me with that. But on your side, it would really help if you could simply test 27/15 on a stf and compare it to 18/24 on a stf, you will quickly understand why my biased and flawed analysis is somehow true.I need some sort of irrefutable argument that would show agility's superiority over strength or 1s bow's superiority over 2s bows. You attempted this, but were unable to find an irrefutable argument. If I knew what exactly the argument would be that you could make, I'd have already made a proposal to rebalance archery. Unfortunately, what evidence there has been so far, isn't nearly good enough to justify a balance change.
I need some sort of irrefutable argument that would show agility's superiority over strength or 1s bow's superiority over 2s bows. You attempted this, but were unable to find an irrefutable argument. If I knew what exactly the argument would be that you could make, I'd have already made a proposal to rebalance archery. Unfortunately, what evidence there has been so far, isn't nearly good enough to justify a balance change.
I recently tested 24/18 and 30/12 on my STF though and I didn't find them to be lacking. Furthermore, I have not only thoroughly tested damages in game, I have also tested accuracy (and not just reticule size) as well. Again, the conclusion I have come to is that when you consider the potential that each build has, the actual potential is higher for str builds, but they're also more specialized, as one would expect under a perfectly balanced setting. As you specialize, you sacrifice, else you gain for free.
Ok, then lets go.Your comparisons aren't appropriate, you're comparing unequal builds.
Horn bow is better than rus and long bow, for the following reason :
If the bow A, a powerful bow, got long loading time, bad accuracy, bad arrow trajectory, 2 slots (not able to take a decent side weapon), and high repair (not entering into the description of potential of the bow, simply saying that the worst bows (to me) are also the most expensive), it's enough to me to see that slightly higher damage is not sufficient to that. This bow A will do lets say 25 damage per shot.
Then, we got the bow B. The bow B, is a weapon with short loading time, pin point accuracy, huge missile speed, low price (lol), but got less damage per shot. It's doing 17 damage per shot.
Which bow is the best ? A or B ? better damage, or accuracy + speed + short loading time.
Note that in crpg, low damage can be compensated by headshots (easy to land with bow B, since if you miss, you can almost fire another instant arrow) or simply by taking tatar or bodkin arrows.
To conclude my biased as fuck text, bow B> bow A, which means that horn bow and other nomad bows are generally better than longbow and rus bow.
This time, let's go for builds.
A good ranged build is a build allying moving speed, shooting speed, accuracy, ability to fight in melee, damage with the bow. Lets take level 31 builds
Build A : 18/24 at 31, or 18/21 at level 30
Moving speed : check
Shooting speed : check
accuracy : check
arrow trajectory : unchecked, actually shit with high tier bows
ability to fight in melee (footwork, wpf and shit) : check
damage : depends of the bow, target armor, etc.
As you seen on my screen shots, the damage wasn't that different from high str builds, still shooting much faster than str builds, so, "DPS" is therefore higher.
Build B : 27/15 on level 31, 24/15 on level 30
Moving speed : unchecked (clearly shit, can't kite, if you want to escape from death by dropping your bow, you still get caught by anyone with 6 athletics.)
shooting speed : unchecked (you are slower than any archer to shoot)
accuracy : unchecked (simply terrible when you wear a bit more than the limit of weight before losing wpf)
arrow trajectory : checked (wow, the only thing you got when using a strength build).
ability to fight in melee : unchecked (you move too slowly to get enough speed bonus, plus you hit slowly and get spammed)
damage : checked (you do slightly more damage than agi builds), but what can you do when you miss your arrows half of the time, and have to wait 2.5 seconds to fire another one ? You got in fact lower "DPS" than agility archery builds.
I know, you will say it's biased as fuck, but what isn't in your way to balance the game ? ATM, strength archery is more like throwing on high distances, not a second way to play archery. You can't pretend to play archery if you don't even fill half of the requirements of a real archery build. People cried about that bug you fixed, it was only for my build something to not be completely fucked by agi archery builds. Once you removed it, builds like 18/24 got nerfed, but still, I barely got enough effective wpf to shoot with my build, and not enough to use the weapons of a strength archer, which are the high tier bows.
QQ thread by a bad builder about his bad build. 18 is archer strength, going over that has always been a stupid choice. You made a stupid choice, now respec or retire and make better choices.
18/18 has and always will be best archer build, skills are
6 Powerstrike, 6 Powerdraw, 6 athletics, 6 weaponmaster: at lvl 30 you are already overlevelled and can take 5 ironflesh, or save those points and become horse archer at lvl 32, or be a real hero and be a shielder/archer.
Any other archer build is for bundle of stickss: Mount and Blade has no inventory for horses, but it is VERY FUCKING CLEAR that all the bows with "bow-sheaths" are modelled to look like saddle attachments for horse archers, and should carry the tag "Unusable on foot". bundle of stickss who use these bows on foot look fucking retarded.
So you are gonna want to use of the 3 remaining bows: Bow is quite nice but lacks dmg, so longbow or warbow you are left with: There's no reason to go past 18, ever, never has been, and your desperate attempt to milk more damage out of the easiest class to play in the game is pathetic.
QQ thread by a bad builder about his bad build. 18 is archer strength, going over that has always been a stupid choice. You made a stupid choice, now respec or retire and make better choices.
I don't want anything to be nerfed, I would simply like to make str archers viable again by increasing the wpf that low agi builds get, because every problem here is related to wpf. I don't want to see 27/21 , 24/24 or any other build become OP tho, so, the wpf increase should limit to 18 agi with 6 WM. Passed it, it should become a negligible difference compared to what it is currently.
...
By taking a longbow, you lose 4 missile speed (huge difference, even if it doesn't looks like), gain 1.3 weight, get less accuracy (accuracy being related to damages, the longbow's 106 accuracy isn't enough to make it accurate compared to the other bows), lose 7 speed rating (quite a lot to me), get one more slot occupied and increased repairs on top of that.
...
It's only +6 wpf which won't really solve your issue even if people decide to change it. I'm still confused how it's more inaccurate for you with the bow accuracy increases. Additionally, Agi archers took a larger hit so they should be comparatively easier to deal with than before, so I'm wondering why it's more difficult or if there was an error involved at any point.It's very likely not, since every point of accuracy is in fact worth 13 wpf. He probably just has lower hold time before his reticule begins to spread, which would reduce his effective accuracy rate if he's not adjusting his playstyle.
It's very likely not, since every point of accuracy is in fact worth 13 wpf. He probably just has lower hold time before his reticule begins to spread, which would reduce his effective accuracy rate if he's not adjusting his playstyle.
I need some sort of irrefutable argument that would show agility's superiority over strength or 1s bow's superiority over 2s bows. You attempted this, but were unable to find an irrefutable argument. If I knew what exactly the argument would be that you could make, I'd have already made a proposal to rebalance archery. Unfortunately, what evidence there has been so far, isn't nearly good enough to justify a balance change.
I recently tested 24/18 and 30/12 on my STF though and I didn't find them to be lacking. Furthermore, I have not only thoroughly tested damages in game, I have also tested accuracy (and not just reticule size) as well. Again, the conclusion I have come to is that when you consider the potential that each build has, the actual potential is higher for str builds, but they're also more specialized, as one would expect under a perfectly balanced setting. As you specialize, you sacrifice, else you gain for free.
Damage Hits to Kill
1 60
2 30 (-30)
3 20 (-10)
4 15 (-5)
5 12 (-3)
6 10 (-2)
7 9 (-1)
8 8 (-1)
9 7 (-1)
10 6 (-1)
11 6 (-0!)
12 5 (-1)
13 5 (-0!)
14 5 (-0!)
15 4 (-1)
16...19 4 (-0!)
20 3 (-1)
21...29 3 (-0)
30 2 (-1)
30...59 2 (-0)
60+ 1 (-1)Thats... actually a good idea. IF reducing stun duration/stagger of arrows/bolts/throwing weapons.it also could be funny if full plate full str guys (Butan etc) will be almost unstunnable :twisted:
it also could be funny if full plate full str guys (Butan etc) will be almost unstunnable :twisted:
buff like this for str bulids could be nice :)
str unplayable??? ;P
That's why at least would like to se melee str got buffed
The less hits you require to kill someone, the harder it is for you to get any effect from increasing your damage.While thats absolutely true, it's not a good idea to just leave things at that and say "once you're able to 2 shot, until you can 1 shot, any damage increase is pointless." There are just too many other factors that come up in a real scenario that this doesn't speak to such as: distance, positive or negative speed bonuses, armor values, variable hp amounts, multiple damage sources (both before and after getting shot.) We have already established that ranged get the lowest damage:kills ratio(meaning that the hits it takes to kill, are almost irrelevant since most people will be dying to another's hand) on average. Still, I'm not trying to say this isn't important, I think about this fairly often, but mostly from the other direction.
Similarly, the less hits you take to die, the harder it is to get any surviving hit gains from STR/IF.
Why is this thread still active. Heres the lowdown:
Anything Tydeus touches turns to shit, any change you make will kill even more of the population, pop dropoff and tydeus at the helm are not unrelated. Just fuck off.
Tydeus had the idea to make a wpf spread, but this was one of the best ideas, so, it makes your whole sentence wrong. Also, you're going too far by using personnal insults against someone who put his time, without any kind of remuneration, to try improving the mod and adding features. Althought I disagree with his way to balance the game, I consider it's enough to deserve some respect.
Tydeus had the idea to make a wpf spread, but this was one of the best ideas, so, it makes your whole sentence wrong. Also, you're going too far by using personnal insults against someone who put his time, without any kind of remuneration, to try improving the mod and adding features. Althought I disagree with his way to balance the game, I consider it's enough to deserve some respect.
You also should remember that Str archer have 12 hp more than agi on lvl 34 (it can be 1 shot or hit from melee, and that's a lot IMO).
Also what are values for ATH for both lvl 34? It's really important thing to be honest :)
fighting with no PS is sometimes fun, but still dedicated archer should shoot more rather than fight in melee.
Anyway i have 2 ps. Putting it together with high ath -> higher speed bonus i can deal dmg to almost everyone even without wpf in melee (i have 1 wpf in 1h). Still most of time ii'm trying to avoid putting my sword in hand unless i'm forced to do that :). IMO that's normal behavior for dedicated archer.