cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Soldier_of_God on July 27, 2014, 09:17:21 pm

Title: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: Soldier_of_God on July 27, 2014, 09:17:21 pm
No offense meant to zangibu, but we need an active item manager to.... well manage items and add new items.
March 10, 2014, 12:17:30 am - his last active login. note, just because he logged in still doesn't mean he was actively doing anything important.


http://forum.melee.org/suggestions-corner/%28item-suggestion%29-european-cavalry-sword/msg969248/#msg969248
European cav sword, modeled and textured. not added.

http://forum.melee.org/suggestions-corner/crescent-moon-blade-halberd/
Crescent halberd, modeled and textured. not added.

http://forum.melee.org/suggestions-corner/highlander-armor-re-textured-for-crpg-no-skin-showing/
Highlander armors, modeled and textured. not added.

Panos has many suggestions, some good, some bad, i wont bother to list them all. There are MANY more suggestions, people who have worked their butt off creating all new material for nothing, simply because the item manager is awol.

This is not a hate thread or a complaint about zangibu in any way, rather, i'd like to see about getting an item manager who can be active and actually do something if needed; there's no point having an item manager that's never on. If anyone else feels the same, vote yes, and maybe we can elect someone who is more interested in the job.

Also, if you are interested, this might be a good place to declare it so that if the devs are looking, everything will all be in one place.





Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: 722_ on July 27, 2014, 09:18:53 pm
Zagibu left btw
Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: Soldier_of_God on July 28, 2014, 04:01:33 am
all the more reason for a new item manager
Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: Battlepriest on July 28, 2014, 04:20:51 am
I say yea

also plated donkey needs to be added too
Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on July 28, 2014, 06:56:35 am
I am not part of the process, but as I understand it Tydeus (and maybe san?) are still able to get models added as items. If they suggest it, a group of devs votes on whether it should be done.

Zagibu was an excellent asset to the team, it's a shame he is gone. Tydeus is able to add fully modeled items but has said that he does not have the time or experience to modify items to fit with those that are already in the game.
Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: Jacko on July 28, 2014, 01:06:45 pm
Currently no one has the time and energy (and the skillset) to do what Zagibu did. We still have an active balance team that does plenty of work, so we are not by any means stranded.
Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: Joseph Porta on July 28, 2014, 05:22:39 pm
Isnt xynox an "item manager"?
Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: San on July 28, 2014, 05:29:29 pm
Tydeus can.

It would be nice to have people like Senni T, Segd, etc, but often times the most qualified are the most busy themselves. Personally, I didn't like the extra involvement for voting on new items, since I didn't feel like I had the necessary standards and understanding. I think there should be a separate group wholly devoted to adding items and tweaking looks, with the balance team figuring out the stats, even if some people like Tydeus are in both. Zagibu had way too much workload on himself if you saw him on irc.
Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: Thryn on July 28, 2014, 05:44:42 pm
rip zagibu

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: MURDERTRON on July 28, 2014, 06:27:32 pm
I bet Huscarlton Banks could do it.
Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: Krex on July 28, 2014, 06:34:40 pm
I bet Huscarlton Banks could do it.

He could,or Raylin whos forum name is something with matt if I remember right.
Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: Lord_Bernie_of_Voodoo on July 28, 2014, 06:39:47 pm
A thread I made a long time ago when I was still new to cRPG - it got a lot of support, hopefully it's realistic to ask that at least some of these can be included.
http://forum.melee.org/suggestions-corner/more-dark-age-helmets/new/#new (http://forum.melee.org/suggestions-corner/more-dark-age-helmets/new/#new)
Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: Angantyr on July 28, 2014, 07:33:32 pm
Give Tydeus the power to also overhaul the xp and level system, please. He has the skills, energy and right attitude, I'd trust he'd make something good out of it.
Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: Molly on July 28, 2014, 07:52:14 pm
Give Tydeus the power to also overhaul the xp and level system, please. He has the skills, energy and right attitude, I'd trust he'd make something good out of it.
...and already like 26376 other things on his table.
Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: Senni__Ti on July 28, 2014, 08:51:40 pm
I bet Huscarlton Banks could do it.
In his sleep ;).

He could,or Raylin whos forum name is something with matt if I remember right.
+1

I would offer, but I'm pretty unknown to the Dev team and really busy IRL atm.
(+ I think nordinvasion would string me up ;P)

Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: BlameMeForTheNoise on July 28, 2014, 09:01:27 pm
So basically that means: The dev team approves of the suggestion but there is just none who could?
Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on July 29, 2014, 07:48:27 am
There are people who could, but they would not accept the position because they are busy with other things or unwilling to spend the giant load of time that roll would require.

It's not like they get paid. CRPG is pretty old for a mod, it's wonderful that we still have anyone willing to put time into what they are doing now. Even if I had the skills to help, I would not have the time to do so. I'm really grateful for their work.
Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: STR_aD_Sargon_eqv on July 29, 2014, 12:40:33 pm
Quote
No offense meant to zangibu, but we need an active item manager to.... well manage items and add new items.
March 10, 2014, 12:17:30 am - his last active login. note, just because he logged in still doesn't mean he was actively doing anything important.


http://forum.melee.org/suggestions-corner/%28item-suggestion%29-european-cavalry-sword/msg969248/#msg969248
European cav sword, modeled and textured. not added.

http://forum.melee.org/suggestions-corner/crescent-moon-blade-halberd/
Crescent halberd, modeled and textured. not added.

http://forum.melee.org/suggestions-corner/highlander-armor-re-textured-for-crpg-no-skin-showing/
Highlander armors, modeled and textured. not added.

Panos has many suggestions, some good, some bad, i wont bother to list them all. There are MANY more suggestions, people who have worked their butt off creating all new material for nothing, simply because the item manager is awol.

This is not a hate thread or a complaint about zangibu in any way, rather, i'd like to see about getting an item manager who can be active and actually do something if needed; there's no point having an item manager that's never on. If anyone else feels the same, vote yes, and maybe we can elect someone who is more interested in the job.

Also, if you are interested, this might be a good place to declare it so that if the devs are looking, everything will all be in one place.

ZED IS DEAD M0D IS DEAD
Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: Soldier_of_God on July 29, 2014, 05:29:50 pm
well, if one person alone could not do it, why not have a GROUP of people do it? an item management team? surely with 4 or 5 people something could be done, and with all the interested parties who do not have the time, this is a chance for them to be a part of it without having to do too much work in one sitting.
Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: MURDERTRON on July 29, 2014, 06:54:49 pm
well, if one person alone could not do it, why not have a GROUP of people do it? an item management team? surely with 4 or 5 people something could be done, and with all the interested parties who do not have the time, this is a chance for them to be a part of it without having to do too much work in one sitting.

My guess is that the direction from the devs is pretty poor, so trying to split the work and then delegating the actual work would be even more catastrophic than having one item manager who runs away.
Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: Admiral Ballsack on July 29, 2014, 11:19:47 pm
       As it would be nice to have more of a variety, I personally don't think this mod can handle any more items. People rip two models together, and say 'TEXTURE IT' thinking they are contributing, which just makes me cringe. Just take a look at all the one-handed swords, if they add another one handed sword what could they even do differently with the stats, nobody even uses the recently added crusader sword.
       There's other models out there, but I don't think they have a place in this mod. That being said, I do think that these 'novelty' items have a place in the mod if they have the right balance, and of course not everyone has them.
     
Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: darmaster on July 29, 2014, 11:29:15 pm
since zagibu left could any admin please tell us what was his ingame name? phyrex?
Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: Dionysus on July 30, 2014, 12:03:19 am
A thread I made a long time ago when I was still new to cRPG - it got a lot of support, hopefully it's realistic to ask that at least some of these can be included.
http://forum.melee.org/suggestions-corner/more-dark-age-helmets/new/#new (http://forum.melee.org/suggestions-corner/more-dark-age-helmets/new/#new)

Shameless repost of my post on that thread, because the Early Middle Ages is my second favorite historical time period, and I am desperate to see these armors added.

Totally going to necro this post (hopefully Zagibu comes back from the dead too). I STRONGLY suggest taking another look at the armors in Víkingr. They are all very well textured and should be compatible with cRPG since Víkingr runs on WSE (I am computer illiterate, so I might be very wrong about that).

Here are some screens I captured of my favorite armors from the mod.

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(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

A few more in my album on imgur for the curious. (http://imgur.com/a/EBwU9#XBDyiZD)
Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: Smoothrich on July 30, 2014, 03:24:40 am
If you want shit added, at least when I was active the best bet was to go in IRC and harrass people there directly. Also have everything packaged up neatly with suggested stats, or open a thread to discuss stats and get balancer input. Prob make it easier for everyone to get a few, high quality pieces of gear, with agreed upon stats.
Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: Battlepriest on July 30, 2014, 05:00:26 am
Well, if nobody knows how to be an item manager, I would like to volunteer, though all I'd know how to do is add items and stats. I can modify models, but don't expect me to be able to do anything with textures

If nobody else knows how to add items to cRPG, then I can serve as a substitute until we find an actual item manager
Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: Rico on July 30, 2014, 05:10:25 am
Well, if nobody knows how to be an item manager, I would like to volunteer, though all I'd know how to do is add items and stats. I can modify models, but don't expect me to be able to do anything with textures

If nobody else knows how to add items to cRPG, then I can serve as a substitute until we find an actual item manager

We have a volunteer, give this man a title and let him begin.
Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: Soldier_of_God on July 30, 2014, 07:07:40 am
Well there we go :)
Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: FleetFox on July 30, 2014, 09:16:26 am
Awesome Battlepriest, thanks for volunteering. As Dionysus has just said, adding those early medieval helmets and stuff should be top priority :)

Cheers
Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: Battlepriest on July 30, 2014, 09:19:33 am
Awesome Battlepriest, thanks for volunteering. As Dionysus has just said, adding those early medieval helmets and stuff should be top priority :)

Actually, I'm pretty sure the item manager's job is to see how good the models suggested are, then give it to the devs to vote on it. In other words, the Item Manager is just a tool  :|
Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: Tydeus on July 30, 2014, 04:18:37 pm
Well, if nobody knows how to be an item manager, I would like to volunteer, though all I'd know how to do is add items and stats. I can modify models, but don't expect me to be able to do anything with textures

If nobody else knows how to add items to cRPG, then I can serve as a substitute until we find an actual item manager
As the Acting Item Manager (Read: Stats-Bitch), I should probably straighten a few misconceptions out, as well as offer what information I can about the position.

Actually, I'm pretty sure the item manager's job is to see how good the models suggested are, then give it to the devs to vote on it. In other words, the Item Manager is just a tool  :|
At the moment, your statement would certainly seem to have some truth to it.

We use a Google Docs Spreadsheets to add stats, we don't edit module_items manually. When chadz compiles for a patch, the module_items.py file is generated using the spreadsheet, so the issue isn't that we need someone do to simple stuff like creating item stats (Item Balancers create the stats anyway, all an Item Manager does is put them into the sheet.) It's that any "Item Manager" will have to have an eye for quality. There are a lot of restrictions that items have to pass through before getting accepted, so it turns out to be quite a tedious task. If you as Item Manager create/edit models/textures, it still has to pass through the normal voting procedure to be able to get implemented. While It's not a rigorous test or anything, it does mean you as the author, don't get the final say.

Really, just about anyone could suffice, but here's a list of things that any candidate will be confronted with or will need to know (might also be worth noting that it would seem, understandably, that chadz highly values initiative). Without the knowledge of how the modeling and texturing process works, so you can fix other people's models/textures, as well as have the willingness to do so, any Item Manger is going to be rather hard pressed to find acceptable OSPs. You must have the author's approval (many people, surprisingly, don't understand this), and you have to scrutinize each OSP filtering out all the items that don't really fall within the timeline or style that cRPG has (Nothing fantasy for example, it shouldn't stick out like a sore thumb), as well as ensuring the items have an appropriate poly count and LOD meshes.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: Senni__Ti on July 30, 2014, 06:34:07 pm
well, if one person alone could not do it, why not have a GROUP of people do it? an item management team? surely with 4 or 5 people something could be done, and with all the interested parties who do not have the time, this is a chance for them to be a part of it without having to do too much work in one sitting.

I'd be up for a team effort.

Well, if nobody knows how to be an item manager, I would like to volunteer, though all I'd know how to do is add items and stats. I can modify models, but don't expect me to be able to do anything with textures

If nobody else knows how to add items to cRPG, then I can serve as a substitute until we find an actual item manager

Hurrah a volunteer!
Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on July 31, 2014, 04:43:19 am
I think that if ready-to-use items are posted in the suggestion forum and they fail the approval vote (or require the creator's approval for use in crpg), then an item manager or dev or someone relevant should post that they will not be added, and why. Then close the thread. There's stuff that's been floating around in suggestions for a year. They get bumped over and over with no acknowledgement by anyone that they have even been considered.
Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on July 31, 2014, 04:52:01 am
i am not the item manager that this community needs, but i AM the item manager it deserves
Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: LordLargos on July 31, 2014, 06:42:47 am
i am not the item manager that this community needs, but i AM the item manager it deserves
Are we really that bad?
Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on July 31, 2014, 05:13:29 pm
Are we really that bad?

worse
Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: Soldier_of_God on July 31, 2014, 06:44:07 pm
As the Acting Item Manager (Read: Stats-Bitch), I should probably straighten a few misconceptions out, as well as offer what information I can about the position.
At the moment, your statement would certainly seem to have some truth to it.

We use a Google Docs Spreadsheets to add stats, we don't edit module_items manually. When chadz compiles for a patch, the module_items.py file is generated using the spreadsheet, so the issue isn't that we need someone do to simple stuff like creating item stats (Item Balancers create the stats anyway, all an Item Manager does is put them into the sheet.) It's that any "Item Manager" will have to have an eye for quality. There are a lot of restrictions that items have to pass through before getting accepted, so it turns out to be quite a tedious task. If you as Item Manager create/edit models/textures, it still has to pass through the normal voting procedure to be able to get implemented. While It's not a rigorous test or anything, it does mean you as the author, don't get the final say.

Really, just about anyone could suffice, but here's a list of things that any candidate will be confronted with or will need to know (might also be worth noting that it would seem, understandably, that chadz highly values initiative). Without the knowledge of how the modeling and texturing process works, so you can fix other people's models/textures, as well as have the willingness to do so, any Item Manger is going to be rather hard pressed to find acceptable OSPs. You must have the author's approval (many people, surprisingly, don't understand this), and you have to scrutinize each OSP filtering out all the items that don't really fall within the timeline or style that cRPG has (Nothing fantasy for example, it shouldn't stick out like a sore thumb), as well as ensuring the items have an appropriate poly count and LOD meshes.

(click to show/hide)

So according to Tydeus, the person in question needs to be able to create item stats and add them to a google document, probably like excel in microsoft  office for spreadsheets,  propose good quality models for vote... and that's about it really. We're sort of at the point here where almost every item suggestion is ready to go ingame (with the exception of some of panos's many suggestions), so really, a well trained monkey could do this job pretty much.

The only thing is that someone WOULD have to know something about graphic design and texturing and all that for the occasional bad apple, if the manager in question didn't just pass it over for being poorly done or redundant or whatever. there are also models that look good that end up needing more work, sometimes has to do with the way they're animated too soo...

Really, at the end of the day, what we need in an item manager is someone who has a good mind for the balance already, who has a good eye for model errors and whatnot, and who can coordinate with model creators and crpg balancing/moderating community to add good models. Modeling and all that stuff is secondary. Therefore, just about anyone could do this.

So does anyone here have a good idea/history of posts about item/game balance, a fair amount of time 10+ hours a week to lend to doing the job, and has a good ability to communicate? That's really all we need right now.

As a matter of fact, I wouldn't mind seeing exactly whats involved in the nitty gritty of it, I have some experience with 3d 3+ years, game and item balance suggestions, and i get along fairly well off with people. I may just want to do it. I'm still a fan of having an item management team rather than just 1 guy doing it though, simply because it its easier that way on everyone, and more work can be done with less effort at a higher quality.
Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: Dexxtaa on July 31, 2014, 10:04:22 pm
Tydeus can.

But the smarmy bastard is busy giving himself retextures of shit to show off for events !!!
Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: Jona on July 31, 2014, 10:52:36 pm
I have some experience with 3d

What does that even mean, exactly? Seeing in 3D in the real world? Playing 3D games? 3D modeling in a CAD program? 3D modeling in zbrush or a related program? 3D modeling in blender? 3D animation? "Experience with 3D" really doesn't mean much of anything, considering anyone who has two eyes has some experience with 3D. No offense, but your resume-writing skills could use some work...

Anyways, I do agree with you that really, anyone could do this job. The most important quality for any candidates would be enthusiasm, and of course having plenty of free time to devote to this task would be another perk. However, the more knowledge on the subject someone has, the better they could do their job. If the crpg community as a whole really likes an armor set, however it won't be added since the chainmail is too dull, then the item manager could work on it to make it acceptable if they know how to do some texturing. Really, it all boils down to how useful the devs would want their item manager to be. If they want someone who simply funnels in all of the many requests, then they could pick anyone. If they want someone who really knows their stuff like zagibu did, then they will have a harder time finding someone. Regardless, the odds of them hiring a new item manager are slim to none, since they "are not by any means stranded" without an item manager. Granted, the community wants one so we could get more shiny things added, the devs don't really understand that and thus we shall be stuck where we are.

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Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: Soldier_of_God on August 01, 2014, 04:03:15 am
Well Jona, I have 3+ years of experience of
-texturing/texture baking (3d program specific texture creation via ingame materials)
-3d and 2d graphic design with 3d studiomax 20XX, cs3 adobe suite Photoshop, Gimp, Wings 3d.
-Animating and rigging (Creating bone structures for animation of objects/characters)

http://forum.melee.org/game-balance-discussion/a-new-2h-mace-%28model-project-to-add-mace-wip%29/msg433134/#msg433134

http://forum.melee.org/suggestions-corner/more-black-armor-plz/msg970802/#msg970802

As a reference, ask evil eye ernie of hospitaller, i did some gratis 3d art for him.

I wont list all the game balance threads i've commented on, or my other game suggestions.
Also, it was not so much an official proposal or request to be considered, but rather i would like to see what all is involved before i decided to take up the torch. So that's what I meant that I had 3+ years experience with 3d, if the statement itself was not self-explanatory in nature.


Title: Re: Do we need a new item manager?
Post by: Tydeus on August 01, 2014, 04:47:22 am
Anyways, I do agree with you that really, anyone could do this job. The most important quality for any candidates would be enthusiasm, and of course having plenty of free time to devote to this task would be another perk. However, the more knowledge on the subject someone has, the better they could do their job. If the crpg community as a whole really likes an armor set, however it won't be added since the chainmail is too dull, then the item manager could work on it to make it acceptable if they know how to do some texturing. Really, it all boils down to how useful the devs would want their item manager to be. If they want someone who simply funnels in all of the many requests, then they could pick anyone. If they want someone who really knows their stuff like zagibu did, then they will have a harder time finding someone. Regardless, the odds of them hiring a new item manager are slim to none, since they "are not by any means stranded" without an item manager.
Pretty much this. The last sentence of course is completely off the mark though. "Devs don't really understand" No, it's because we understand that the community just wants nearly anything (not necessarily a bad thing, it just isn't what we want) that finding an appropriate Item Manage is so much more difficult. If we could guarantee that every applicant had high standards, we wouldn't have to worry about things getting added that don't deserve to be in game. What's more, is that Item Managers have to have access to the cRPG MS files, as well as write access to the Item Sheet we use, so trust plays a factor as well.

Just to clarify, Item Managers aren't Item Balancers. Unless after we find a new Item Manager (assuming we do) things change, they won't be able to vote on any item/mechanics balance changes, so their views on balance are irrelevant. What's important is that they value quality over quantity. Yes we have some low quality models, but we do not remove items and considering how cRPG began, that's to be expected. If we can replace the uglier models and textures we have with better ones, it's better to do that than to add all new items.

Edit: I probably didn't stress the 'trust' factor properly. Of all the requirements, being able to trust a candidate I'd imagine, would certainly fall in the top 3.