cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Breidr on July 19, 2014, 11:50:35 am

Title: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Breidr on July 19, 2014, 11:50:35 am
Yeah, I'll just flat out say it, I think it's absolute crap, especially on public servers.  It's become a special occasion when I can have x2 for a round now, or it at least feels that way.  If I put anything heavier than a Byrnie on, I seem to lose money, yet I see people run full plate all the time.

cRPG is a great concept, and I keep coming back to it, but it's the multiplier system that kills it for me.  I don't even play all that often, so when I do sit down to play, mostly on the weekends, it grates at me even more to be stuck at x1, and then the repair bills kick in and I just think "there's another three-five minutes of income gone."

I noticed some recent changes to team balance, and I still see games end in stomps with 20 enemies still standing, but at least it's being looked into. Is this ever going to happen to the EXP system?  I keep reading that the multiplier system was only temporary, but it doesn't seem that way.

I can tell you one thing, if Melee: Battlegrounds has a similar system, I'll probably pass on it as well.  Don't need to develop a love/hate relationship with too many games.


EDIT: I'd also like to add that it makes other game modes, like Siege, almost pointless in terms of progression, and that sucks because you get to fight a lot more in non-battle mode, but it's hardly populated.  Also, I still don't know what this "Rageball" thing is, or why it's on my server list.  :P
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Angantyr on July 19, 2014, 12:01:45 pm
Remove the dated multi system and replace it with fixed xp (say the current x3), or fixed xp with a very small bonus for your team wining rounds, so that won't be what's keeping players from logging when they're on x5 or what makes them stop when on x1. Lot of frustration for a lot of players already removed then (if not so much myself).

If players invest the same time in the game sure they could and should be rewarded for personal contribution (like valour), but mainly basing this on the team balancer is leaving a lot to chance.
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Utrakil on July 19, 2014, 12:09:24 pm
From what I read in this forum there is no reason to believe that the multiplier-system is going to be changed.
But the autobalancesystem gets reworked at the moment. this might lead to a more ballanced multiplier and with this to a more ballanced xp- and gold- gain.
This is my very optimistic hope on the subject.
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Macropus on July 19, 2014, 12:12:02 pm
I don't get how is multiplier system so bad. Works fine, imo.
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Angantyr on July 19, 2014, 12:13:27 pm
@Breidr, sell your first loom to have a gold buffer and use what equipment you like until you know what to loom one day in the future (where you may also have access to an armory).
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Panos_ on July 19, 2014, 12:15:23 pm
What always bothered with the current XP system, is that all of the players get the same reward no matter of how much did they contribute to the victory of their team.

For example, you have a player who made plenty of frags, and on the other hand you have a guy who did absolutely nothing, yet they both get the same reward, just a multi.

What I would like to see, is a mix of the current xp system, and a proximity/damage dealt xp bonus. Since the first day I started playing c-rpg. I believed that a frag xp bonus is needed, something like this

Total gear cost + Current level of the enemy + frags/points he currently has = XP bonus , of course the bonus should be low, something between 100 and 500 xp per kill.                                                   
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Angantyr on July 19, 2014, 12:17:06 pm
I don't get how is multiplier system so bad. Works fine, imo.
Maybe not to us, but seems newer players suffer a lot when on bad streaks of x1.
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Macropus on July 19, 2014, 12:34:34 pm
For example, you have a player who made plenty of frags, and on the other hand you have a guy who did absolutely nothing, yet they both get the same reward, just a multi.
Because both of them have the same result - they didn't win the round. That's the aim, not "plenty of frags". And besides, those who do really well get valour, so they are awarded anyway.

What I would like to see, is a mix of the current xp system, and a proximity/damage dealt xp bonus. Since the first day I started playing c-rpg. I believed that a frag xp bonus is needed, something like this

Total gear cost + Current level of the enemy + frags/points he currently has = XP bonus , of course the bonus should be low, something between 100 and 500 xp per kill.                                                   
Imo, people are killhungry enough now, no need to make it even worse.
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Teeth on July 19, 2014, 12:45:10 pm
Combine the old proximity xp/gold system with a fixed base xp/gold rate per tick independent of previous rounds and add a 1.2 multiplier of the entire income for the winning team. This would give you a fairly consistent xp/gold income that you can personally boost significantly by playing smart and making your team win.

The old proximity xp/gold system incentivized targeting high levels, staying alive, staying with the group and it brought a fun element of very direct personal influence on the amount of xp/gold you would gain. Disadvantages were low xp/gold income for lone wolves and dumb tactics to maximize xp/gold like XP barn. These disadvantages are made much less severe because of the fixed base rate and I think the advantages would definitely do the current server meta some good. In any case an improvement over the multiplier which really doesn't come off too well if you sum up the advantages and disadvantages. It's reliance on winning and losing is unjustifiable with a decisively bad autobalancer.

Obviously even if the old proximity xp/gold system code is still available, it would still take some code work and then a lot of balancing to match it with the current economy mechanics. Yet it seems to me as a layman that this should not be a very dev-time intensive improvement. Further improvement could be basing the xp/gold proximity on damage instead of kills and putting the proximity radius for ranged players around the ranged player instead of his target.
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: jtobiasm on July 19, 2014, 01:00:36 pm
fuckkk leveling, takes way too long


fuckkk eu1, don't play that shit no more unless i have to
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on July 19, 2014, 01:43:17 pm
fuckkk leveling, takes way too long


fuckkk eu1, don't play that shit no more unless i have to

who is forcing you to play? Are your parents hitting you if you dont play?  :o
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Sniger on July 19, 2014, 03:42:03 pm
From what I read in this forum there is no reason to believe that the multiplier-system is going to be changed.
But the autobalancesystem gets reworked at the moment. this might lead to a more ballanced multiplier and with this to a more ballanced xp- and gold- gain.

Yeah but then you gotta choose: What do you want the most? Multiplier greater than x2 or balance? Cant have both. Thats exactly the paradox®.

edit: Also
Autobalance test this Saturday, July 19th at 4:00 PM (16:00) ET / 10:00 PM (22:00) GMT+2.
Server: cRPG_Tyd_Testbed

We have to test by simulating a normal battle environment, so we need as many people as possible, for a good 30 minutes or so. I'll take screenshots of everyone that comes and hold a raffle for the Boulder on a Stick (has stats of a +3 Long Maul, can't be loomed, so don't transfer it to your STF.)
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: jtobiasm on July 19, 2014, 04:26:21 pm
who is forcing you to play? Are your parents hitting you if you dont play?  :o

Playing with people on ts or warming up before a scrim
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Lichen on July 19, 2014, 05:19:26 pm
Well they have scores based on how much damage you do so why not have xp based on the same? Oh I know players who don't do much won't get much xp...well that sounds about right doesn't it since that is the main problem with this system anyway is players getting xp for doing nothing more than getting lucky enough to be put on the winning team. I was leveling a character and I kept saying wow when am I going to lose and it was just round after round after map continuing x5 and I had hardly done anything since I was low level plus hardly trying. So yeah that can be either good or bad depending on what the goal is. I would prefer a system as I said which is based on the total damage. 

Also for dtv I would really like xp to be based on damage/kills which each wave providing more xp per bot
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Sniger on July 19, 2014, 05:21:32 pm
Personally, i hope that the test will give some useful results for future balance, i think we still will see alot of 2h/polearms on the same team, but it wont be highlevel highscores, those will (or should :p) be spread evenly... Well wtf do i know, i know shit about the code, but im sure that it ultimately eventually will improve gameplay.

edit: And... Lets not forget that if/when we get something called balance, we wont get as much XP as we use to! Not until other system has seen the daylight anyways
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Grumbs on July 19, 2014, 05:26:04 pm
I don't get how is multiplier system so bad. Works fine, imo.

Multi system is good. It gives teams a concrete reason to win the rounds and a proper punishment for losing the round. It encourages players to do whats in the team's best interests to win rather than to play selfishly

The base x1 xp and gold amount can be tweaked for sure, but I like the multi system as it is
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Sniger on July 19, 2014, 05:30:37 pm
Everyone has their own opinion on whats the best interest of the team, everyone not on the same Teamspeak.....

edit: and, lol,
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Grumbs on July 19, 2014, 05:33:53 pm
Everyone has their own opinion on whats the best interest of the team, everyone not on the same Teamspeak.....

edit: and, lol,
(click to show/hide)

Players can make their own decisions on what they think will help the team to win. Without the threat of losing gold/xp for losing people will instead not help their team mates. They will make decisions that suit themselves rather than the team

It also creates a competitive environment because there is something to lose and gain, which to me makes the game more fun
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Sniger on July 19, 2014, 05:43:21 pm
Players can make their own decisions on what they think will help the team to win. Without the threat of losing gold/xp for losing people will instead not help their team mates. They will make decisions that suit themselves rather than the team

They already do now! Because we have valour, where you will be rewarded despite losing.

edit: lol, the zillionz of times ive run around some map and for some reason was in need of cover... I run into some ruin and what do i see hiding in the inner darkest corner, completely crouching into the wall... Some 2h/polearm waiting for the worst chaos to wear off...  :lol:
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Grumbs on July 19, 2014, 05:51:12 pm
Valour for the losing team could be removed, but I think there should be some kind of reward if you lose but had a good contribution. Problem is that if you lose there is no way for the game to know if your contribution helped you nearly win or if you just tried to get valour
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Sniger on July 19, 2014, 06:07:46 pm
I dont know any game where losers is rewarded in any way, other than the "reward" of the shameful 2nd and 3rd place of course :p

Winners take it all, losers go home with sadface. Thats how "games" is :p

edit: Here you see two winners. One of them just won World Cup and received best goal keeper trophy, other one is also a way a winner because he is use to winning, he wanted to win this time also, he got the best player trophy (!) but neither of them doesnt give a rats ass about it. Goal keeper won the tournament so WTF a goal keeper trophy, trash for the bin. Messi got the best player in the tournament, but all he wanted was win.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Grumbs on July 19, 2014, 06:12:31 pm
I dont know any game where losers is rewarded in any way, other than the "reward" of the shameful 2nd and 3rd place of course :p

Winners take it all, losers go home with sadface. Thats how "games" is :p

What about people who can carry their team though? You might get 10 kills while half the team get none at all and don't really contribute. In the end the guy with 10 kills and the guy with 0 gets the same reward. The guy with 10 kills might even lose more gold because he took decent gear so that he could help the team to win. Thats why I think we need some kind of consolation prize, but I don't think you should be able to game the system
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Sniger on July 19, 2014, 06:17:47 pm
Imagine cRPG was football

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Utrakil on July 19, 2014, 06:23:57 pm
I think the best would be to have a base xp (like x1) + xp by damage dealt and proximity. Some extra for the winning team might give some incentive to help other players but I don't think it is necessary because hurting and damaging  enemies is the best thing to help your team win.

Right now I can run a x5 wave without contributing at all because I was lucky to be in the winning team (and vice versa). this is not the way it should be.
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Shemaforash on July 19, 2014, 06:30:37 pm
Unless you're getting valour every third round like some then perhaps it's difficult to maintain a good economy, I'm always overflowing with money gaining around 50K gold every session so I can't really make any valuable input.
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: San on July 19, 2014, 06:47:49 pm
Since the devs are so busy elsewhere, it may turn into a joint effort like autobalance/score that will take months to get to a nice spot if something is done.

I personally think the multi system is too heavily weighted on winning consecutive times. I don't think that's really effective as a rewarding device, and it runs counter to a good functioning autobalance. I think one should be rewarded more for sustained good play for the entire map that provides better rewards for lower levels. Valour rewards extraordinary performance for a single round.

Some form of multi rewards getting your team to win. However, there really isn't anything for simply doing your work as a valuable member of the team. In an appropriately packed server, the multi is not much different than a coin flip for the average player. Siege definitely needs its own tweaked system as well, since guarding locations can be just as important as fighting at the front lines.
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Angantyr on July 19, 2014, 06:49:21 pm
Perhaps slightly less upkeep would help. Not being able to afford just decent armor or weapons is what you hear most from new players, who perhaps also need these the most, both as a help but also to feel they are creating the character they want, a main theme of this mod.
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Screaming Idiot on July 19, 2014, 07:46:11 pm
Imagine cRPG was football

>rageball
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Teeth on July 19, 2014, 08:42:42 pm
How about we reduce regular upkeep and increase upkeep on loomed items? The whole no strings attached upgrade thing is bullshit anyway.
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Thryn on July 19, 2014, 09:17:15 pm
i dont feel like grammar

there needs to be xp for the accumulation of points; this helps peasants get in the fight and stop leeching


also it would make players like allers not suicide leech, and that whole controversial (lol) topic disappear

"OH NO THRYN WAT ABOOT BOOSTERS"
those motherfuckers would be easy enuff to ban, take screens n shit

im tired of fighting at level 15 after retiring only to get realize i have to put in 30 hours of leeching in order to stop weilding a flaccid dick as a weapon
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: NJ_Legion_Icedtea on July 19, 2014, 09:28:28 pm
I normally find when you join a server you are balanced onto the losing team, therefore you will only be getting x1 for the first few rounds. Just play and enjoy it and when the map changes you may find you are on the winning team and will get x3 or above without even realising it.

If you are just here to get a high level character and farm xp then you will just find yourself not enjoying and quitting and joining another server to be balanced again on the losing team, and then of course repeat the cycle.

Just enjoy the game and forget the multi.
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Little Lord Lollipop on July 20, 2014, 12:57:51 am
A system based on score won't help new players as they glance on EVERYTHING. While a proximity system is a little better new players will struggle to survive due to low athletics and the fact that all the heroes (Timmy_The_Two_Hand_Tard, Sir_Ridesalot_The_Cumguzzler, and Elite_Sniper_F@ggot) aim for peasants to pad their precious K/D's.

I think a better system would be to make the multi system more forgiving for new players such as losing a round reduces the multiplier by 1 instead of reducing it to x1.
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Sniger on July 21, 2014, 03:29:14 pm
Just play and enjoy it

Just enjoy the game

gain and income should be same for everyone. i cannot enjoy a game where im used as a sparring tool for unfair rapeage. the problem is that the losing team usally have no chance whatsoever, they are creamed, no competition. only when player amount is close to 100 (really best when more than 100) we see some pretty even matches. but how often do we have 80-100 players these days? on a daily basis the player amount is less than 60 average.
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Admerius on July 21, 2014, 04:12:56 pm
And now I see this thread, I made a suggestion about this earlier today...

Multiplier system is good.

Effort should get some more reward though, not just valor, and to not break the xp/gold income system why not tie it to something like:
Based on score you should get an increase on your minimum multiplier, so someone that contributes much gets a minimum of for example x2 or x3(it can never go lower than that on that game(based on score, after map change score resets to 0, and thus x1 as min multi). This way the focus is two fold when wanting money/xp, get high score(to raise minimum multiplier) or to win to reach x5 asap.

(Read my suggestion for details: http://forum.melee.org/suggestions-corner/score-should-affect-minimum-multiplier/ (http://forum.melee.org/suggestions-corner/score-should-affect-minimum-multiplier/))

Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: San on July 21, 2014, 04:20:10 pm
Interesting idea. Perhaps it can be a function of score and level.
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: RedShield on July 21, 2014, 04:28:47 pm
As a newer player, I think the current XP/Gold system is okay but needs to be improved as it caters far too much to older players.  Remember, whatever system is decided upon needs to take into account new or more casual players so they aren't left too far behind.  Being non-competative is absolutely no fun and a game where new players cannot hope to bridge the gap is one that will not grow very well; the community with atrophy in an unhealthy way.

A system based on personal performance is not a good solution because the divide between those who play a lot and those who are new or play casually becomes too large too quickly.  I like the idea of a system where the base rewards are significant and consistent with small bonuses for personal performance.
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: RedShield on July 21, 2014, 04:33:47 pm
Players can make their own decisions on what they think will help the team to win. Without the threat of losing gold/xp for losing people will instead not help their team mates. They will make decisions that suit themselves rather than the team

It also creates a competitive environment because there is something to lose and gain, which to me makes the game more fun

Again, this kind of system will punish new players who are just starting out.   
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Sniger on July 21, 2014, 05:40:24 pm
Multiplier system is good.

Interesting idea.

 :lol:
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Breidr on July 21, 2014, 06:04:00 pm
At least this is generating some good discussion, I think.

I wanted to add my two cents about valor.  I've only ever received valor about 6 times in my career.  That may be an understatement, but I don't get it all that much.  I do see the same individuals getting it all the time, at least it seems that way.  Not saying it needs to go, but I give it little weight when it comes to EXP/Gold gains.

I'm just going to throw this out there and see where it goes.  In DTV you are rewarded at the end of a round with an amount of EXP and Gold based on certain factors.  Would it be feasible to have a system like this for battle and siege servers?  It removes the multi, which I feel is the #1 demotivating factor for me, far less so than the low XP rewards.  It can also give a sense of accomplishment, "wow, look at all the exp/gold I received for that last map, new personal best!" etc.  I believe it would also make playing siege more rewarding and viable.

I bring this up because DTV seems to be the most effective way to grind up a new generation.  I just hop on EU_7 for a morning or so and I've got some levels under my belt, and I can actually kill bots as a peasant.

Keep it coming guys.  I'd really like to see this mod improved, especially for newer guys that I hope come in.
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: rebbrown on July 21, 2014, 09:26:26 pm
Same shit as always: +3 loomed lvl33-35s wreck havoc and get valor, even if they lose the round. They got enough gold to survive some setbacks so they rock expensive gear. If you're under level 20, you're cannonfodder. You might say 'lol, get skill' but only the 1% can contribute - assuming they do not face the tougher opponents.

The current system favors clan/vet stacking and that's all there is to it. If you're on the wrong side, you'll lose money unless you run ghetto gear. Run ghetto gear and you increase your team's chances of losing. For all those who say 'lol, sell ur first loom point' - you're asking new players to invest a ridiculous amount of time into a game before they can 'enjoy it'. Do you think they'll stick around? Hell no. I've had three friends who I introduced to c-rpg leave after only 3 days. The first left pretty much straight away, the second gave it a couple of hours before saying he felt like he kept running up against a wall and the third thought he could have fun as an archer. Then he realized that as a lvl20 he could only get kills by shooting enemy peasants - who are snatched up by cavalry within the first 40 seconds of the round. Say a new player uses medium armor in the 6 to 10k range together with a shield that's anywhere from 2 to 4k, he'll immediately run into the danger zone when he uses a difficulty 12+ weapon. Getting the armor and weaponry itself is hard enough, but once he has them, he can't use it all the time. Even with said gear he won't be competitive so go figure how killing it is to having to resort to the crappier stuff.

If the mod wants to extend its lifespan, things will have to change and the xp system is part of that. Let it favor those who contribute and give bonusses dependant on the level of the player (a lvl1-10 should see a huge bump in gold/xp for hitting and killing enemies). I'm not asking for lvl1 to 30 to be a one day affair, but right now the crawl is absolutely killer on newbies. Timesinks are bad and level 1 to 20 simply is a timesink.
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Sniger on July 21, 2014, 09:58:05 pm
Same shit as always: +3 loomed lvl33-35s wreck havoc and get valor, even if they lose the round. They got enough gold to survive some setbacks so they rock expensive gear. If you're under level 20, you're cannonfodder. You might say 'lol, get skill' but only the 1% can contribute - assuming they do not face the tougher opponents.

The current system favors clan/vet stacking and that's all there is to it. If you're on the wrong side, you'll lose money unless you run ghetto gear. Run ghetto gear and you increase your team's chances of losing. For all those who say 'lol, sell ur first loom point' - you're asking new players to invest a ridiculous amount of time into a game before they can 'enjoy it'. Do you think they'll stick around? Hell no. I've had three friends who I introduced to c-rpg leave after only 3 days. The first left pretty much straight away, the second gave it a couple of hours before saying he felt like he kept running up against a wall and the third thought he could have fun as an archer. Then he realized that as a lvl20 he could only get kills by shooting enemy peasants - who are snatched up by cavalry within the first 40 seconds of the round. Say a new player uses medium armor in the 6 to 10k range together with a shield that's anywhere from 2 to 4k, he'll immediately run into the danger zone when he uses a difficulty 12+ weapon. Getting the armor and weaponry itself is hard enough, but once he has them, he can't use it all the time. Even with said gear he won't be competitive so go figure how killing it is to having to resort to the crappier stuff.

If the mod wants to extend its lifespan, things will have to change and the xp system is part of that. Let it favor those who contribute and give bonusses dependant on the level of the player (a lvl1-10 should see a huge bump in gold/xp for hitting and killing enemies). I'm not asking for lvl1 to 30 to be a one day affair, but right now the crawl is absolutely killer on newbies. Timesinks are bad and level 1 to 20 simply is a timesink.

so awesome that i read it twice.
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Grumbs on July 21, 2014, 10:13:03 pm
Same shit as always: +3 loomed lvl33-35s wreck havoc and get valor, even if they lose the round. They got enough gold to survive some setbacks so they rock expensive gear. If you're under level 20, you're cannonfodder. You might say 'lol, get skill' but only the 1% can contribute - assuming they do not face the tougher opponents.

The current system favors clan/vet stacking and that's all there is to it. If you're on the wrong side, you'll lose money unless you run ghetto gear. Run ghetto gear and you increase your team's chances of losing. For all those who say 'lol, sell ur first loom point' - you're asking new players to invest a ridiculous amount of time into a game before they can 'enjoy it'. Do you think they'll stick around? Hell no. I've had three friends who I introduced to c-rpg leave after only 3 days. The first left pretty much straight away, the second gave it a couple of hours before saying he felt like he kept running up against a wall and the third thought he could have fun as an archer. Then he realized that as a lvl20 he could only get kills by shooting enemy peasants - who are snatched up by cavalry within the first 40 seconds of the round. Say a new player uses medium armor in the 6 to 10k range together with a shield that's anywhere from 2 to 4k, he'll immediately run into the danger zone when he uses a difficulty 12+ weapon. Getting the armor and weaponry itself is hard enough, but once he has them, he can't use it all the time. Even with said gear he won't be competitive so go figure how killing it is to having to resort to the crappier stuff.

If the mod wants to extend its lifespan, things will have to change and the xp system is part of that. Let it favor those who contribute and give bonusses dependant on the level of the player (a lvl1-10 should see a huge bump in gold/xp for hitting and killing enemies). I'm not asking for lvl1 to 30 to be a one day affair, but right now the crawl is absolutely killer on newbies. Timesinks are bad and level 1 to 20 simply is a timesink.

Everyone could be set to lvl 30 and the same people will get valour and the same people will have difficulty getting kills. The biggest hurdle for new players is the skill gap. BUT the high level/loom situation makes matters a lot worse because the good players are also the guys with high levels and looms. So not only would they beat you on a level playing field, the field is in their favour too

The multi system isn't really anything to do with this though. We could have the same multi system that rewards players for winning as a team (rather than as individuals) and punishes teams for losing (especially if they lose when on a streak - keeps the pressure up) but have better diminishing returns on levelling, and give newbies a more competitive start in the game. Theres a lot of ways to do that like limiting lvl 30+ (less stats/skills), encouraging high level people to retire, giving newbies a few +3's, more XP at x1 etc. The multi system is separate tho imo. Newbies will get on the winning team 50% of the time
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Joker86 on July 21, 2014, 10:14:45 pm
Yeah, I'll just flat out say it, I think it's absolute crap, especially on public servers.  It's become a special occasion when I can have x2 for a round now, or it at least feels that way.  If I put anything heavier than a Byrnie on, I seem to lose money, yet I see people run full plate all the time.

cRPG is a great concept, and I keep coming back to it, but it's the multiplier system that kills it for me.  I don't even play all that often, so when I do sit down to play, mostly on the weekends, it grates at me even more to be stuck at x1, and then the repair bills kick in and I just think "there's another three-five minutes of income gone."

I noticed some recent changes to team balance, and I still see games end in stomps with 20 enemies still standing, but at least it's being looked into. Is this ever going to happen to the EXP system?  I keep reading that the multiplier system was only temporary, but it doesn't seem that way.

I can tell you one thing, if Melee: Battlegrounds has a similar system, I'll probably pass on it as well.  Don't need to develop a love/hate relationship with too many games.


EDIT: I'd also like to add that it makes other game modes, like Siege, almost pointless in terms of progression, and that sucks because you get to fight a lot more in non-battle mode, but it's hardly populated.  Also, I still don't know what this "Rageball" thing is, or why it's on my server list.  :P

I think the devs of cRPG are incredibly skilled programmes, and it's really amazing what they managed to create from such a limited and basic thing like M&B Warband MP. There is no doubt in it.

What they incredibly suck at though, is game design. Honestly they never managed to introduce anything else than what Warband already had, some half assed team deathmatch and siege modes. And don't let me even get started on how you develop your characters or earn your XP/money. It's such an incredibly stuipid system, it started to hurt my physically the moment they announced it, and over all those years it only became worse, because one might have thought that after some time they realize what gigantic pile of crap they created there. But nope, they just stuck to it and tried to make the best out of it, which in the end resulted in a system which barely does the job and is only marginally better than the system before.

I don't know how you can not recognize how imbecilic the idea is to restrict people only temporarily in their choice of equipment. Having to save some money to run around in black plate on a plated charger is unbalanced either way, and when I get trampled by such a behemoth it is only little comforting for me that he can do that only like once in a week. Let alone those people who are in a clan or have fiefs in Strategus and have more money than others on average. What a great idea to give the most professional players advantages on public servers (this includes the fucking banner balance system).

The upkeep system is doing a really bad job at restricting players properly, and you always see the same cookiecutter builds and equipment loadouts. Every class has a hand full of viable builds which all look the same, and all of them play the same. There is little room for effective hybridization, and due to the poor performance the upkeep system is showing you see like ten percent of all items on eighty percent of all players. The different characters on a server differ only on two direction: the level and the average amount of money a player has at his disposal. Which means if you are a random, casual player, the first thing you can look to buy as an armour would be a buttplug. Take care it's at least a chainmail one, better plate. Leather buttplugs won't protect you at all.

As dumb the XP/money gain and the character development are, as dumb is the gameplay itself. It doesn't encourage players to do anything else than keeping [W] pressed and running towards the closest player like some kind of heat seaking missile, with the same amount of intelligence.

If the kickstarter project the devs currently have running gets released one day, and it turns out to be a copy of cRPG just on another engine, then they will have the same problems they are having right now, including the equipment restrictions, character development, XP and money gain, general balance between different players and the balance between the classes. And all they will do to fix those problems will be nerfing stuff. Because it's the only thing they really know to do.

After all I have seen I can safely say that the devs won't fix the problems cRPG has anytime soon, if at all. They simply fail to see the retardedness of some decisions, or they are too proud to admit a mistake, and thus we will be stuck to what we have now, until one day the server gets shut down. cRPG might have become a great thing, but the chance was missed. It is good, yes, but that's utter shit if it could have been something awesome.
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: San on July 21, 2014, 10:19:04 pm
Make +2s the current upkeep, +3 have increased upkeep, and everything else have lower upkeep (most expensive equipment may need to be made cheaper, such as horses, plate, etc.). Lower levels should get rewarded for personal performance with EXP/gold much more than they do currently, while high levels get rewarded more with getting their team to win and valour. Lower levels aren't able to get valour or affect the winning chances of their team.

Sniger, you're silly if you think I was referencing that part of his post at all. There are aspects I like and vastly dislike about the current multi system.
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Sniger on July 21, 2014, 10:20:40 pm
oh the amount of quality posts, im getting a boner
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: rebbrown on July 21, 2014, 10:29:41 pm
Lower upkeep for non-loomed items and lower upkeep in general for anything but the highest of difficulty gear (difficulty 16+ weapons and armor) would be a vast improvement for newer players. Not dying from being bumped by heavy cav is a nice experience and it brings you closer to being competitive with better equiped players. Add changes to the xp/gold system and you got yourself a stew goin'.
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Grumbs on July 21, 2014, 10:40:04 pm
I think there is a place for the upkeep system and it does limit some things that you don't want to see over used to some extent. But i'd rather things that are too strong when stacked are simply balanced through the game design instead. Everything should be balanced by the players choosing different loadouts that they think opposes the gear that is over used. So you have too many of X and more people will take y for eg. Right now we don't really have that. We have high price tags that are supposed to limit them which works to some extent, but its again putting more power in the hands of people that played the game more. We don't have decent counters to certain builds and loadouts regardless of repairs. Repairs can be crippling for newbies too, who need to buy their own gear at the same time as repairing what they have

Gold could be more about the gameplay you get outside of the game, like trading for +3's. It can be used ingame for fun but it shouldn't ever be a big balancing factor. It not for a fair amount of things already. Weapons over a certain price are all generally as good as each other. Heavy armour, while offering more protection does have some limiting factor on other stats (well unless you're riding a horse)
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Jacko on July 21, 2014, 11:17:50 pm
cRPG has a lot of inherent flaws that won't make it over to MBG. Upkeep being one of them.
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: the real god emperor on July 21, 2014, 11:22:28 pm
cRPG has a lot of inherent flaws that won't make it over to MBG. Upkeep being one of them.

Whaat? Why :( Upkeep is a pretty logical system which keeps players from stacking expensive stuff, why wouldn't it exist in the future plans? I would even be cool with item durability during rounds, it would be exciting to fight with broken spears or shield pieces, IMPLEMENT.
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: San on July 21, 2014, 11:25:16 pm
Upkeep was okay until they added the marketplace, then looms/levels went even more out of control with the armory. I was a high level with only 1 loom until the armory came out, with the marketplace allowing me to buy looms myself. I'm hoping they find a great system that can be used with a healthy economy.
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Jacko on July 21, 2014, 11:29:32 pm
Holding content hostage for grind is bad (unless you're an F2P). There are better ways.

I do think the current cRPG system is 'fine' for the most part, but nowhere near good.
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 21, 2014, 11:30:02 pm
...Upkeep ... keeps players from stacking expensive stuff...




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Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Tindel on July 22, 2014, 03:11:08 pm
Removing upkeep would be great. Then everyone can go gothic plate and ride an elephant. All the time........
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Grumbs on July 22, 2014, 04:20:32 pm
Removing upkeep would be great. Then everyone can go gothic plate and ride an elephant. All the time........

Which wouldn't be a problem if the game were balanced better. The fact we need to punish people in terms of their gold suggests we don't really have good game balance
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Joker86 on July 22, 2014, 04:32:29 pm
Removing upkeep would be great. Then everyone can go gothic plate and ride an elephant. All the time........

Yeah, because upkeep is totally the only system which allows a limitation of the overall value of the equipment wielded. At all.

"Remove upkeep" has always to be understood as "replace upkeep with something different". Since most people don't really know how that replacement would look like, and they only care about upkeep being gone, they write "remove upkeep".
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Admerius on July 22, 2014, 04:38:27 pm
What about...

Rewarding "skill"(score) this way:
You get a DTV style reward(not affected by generation) according to this formula at end of map:

Gold: Score multiplied by Start parenthesis 31 minus level end parenthesis=Score*(31-Level)
Experience: Score*20*(31-Level)

All negative values should be treated as 0(Lvl 32+ generates negative values)
(click to show/hide)

Side effects: low level friends farming points on each other, the main benefit being that low level characters(alts) becomes a good source of income instead of semi-naked lvl 31+ running about fake peasanting.

Do note that 100 pts as level 1 is worth 12 min of x5 multi.
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Sniger on July 22, 2014, 05:03:04 pm
Yeah, because upkeep is totally the only system which allows a limitation of the overall value of the equipment wielded. At all.

"Remove upkeep" has always to be understood as "replace upkeep with something different". Since most people don't really know how that replacement would look like, and they only care about upkeep being gone, they write "remove upkeep".


"upkeep" could be altered to "rent fee" or "gear maintenance" or something. Gear Maintenance would only need to be paid at start of every map.

Before a battle, you prep your gear and make sure everything works as it should. There is some cost related to this, smith needs a coin for the armor repair or fletcher need a coin to make more arrows... and so forth.
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Joker86 on July 22, 2014, 05:23:26 pm


"upkeep" could be altered to "rent fee" or "gear maintenance" or something. Gear Maintenance would only need to be paid at start of every map.

Before a battle, you prep your gear and make sure everything works as it should. There is some cost related to this, smith needs a coin for the armor repair or fletcher need a coin to make more arrows... and so forth.

Actually the idea I had the moment the upkeep system was announced was to raise the level cap a bit and have a "wealth" skill. It's a skill without a governing attribute (like STR or AGI), which raises the worth of equipment you can wear. You get a basic equipment value which raises for every level a bit, but if you want to have more equipment, you have to spend points in that skill. So let's say on level 33 (the new soft level cap) without any skill point in that skill whatsoever you can run around with some cloth armour and a bastard sword, and that's it. But you will have amazing stats. On the other hand, if you spent 10 points in it, you can ride around on a plated charger with plate armour, but your stats will suck. Or you can spend like 5 points, have reasonable equipment and reasonable stats.

This system allows a much wider variety of builds, it allows weapons to finally be balanced properly by their value (which upkeep didn't allow, since it was not strict enough), you can keep your permanent equipment as long as you want, there is no RNG at the end of the round determining if you go broke or not, you don't have to downgrade equipment if you lost a few rounds in a row, clan members don't have better equip by default than random players who don't benefit from banner balance, you can't run around completely OP for a limited amount of time like you can with upkeep, owning a fief in strategus or trading a lot on the marketplace won't allow you to simply IGNORE the equipment restriction system any more, and utlimatively your equipment is not determined by the performance of the other people in your team. Only advantages, where ever you look. chadz said that my system would be "interesting" or something like that, but that they would probably stick with the upkeep system since it is what they implemented now and wouldn't want to create another system. If they only asked the community about the system change before starting to work upkeep and announcing it when it was already too late.
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Sniger on July 22, 2014, 05:29:16 pm
Simplicity® man  :P
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Konrax on July 22, 2014, 09:57:25 pm
What I would like to see is something similar to the old xp system with a few minor tweaks to make it like the "new" one also.

Bring back xp/gold per kill, make it unlimited range, and shared with the team.

Gain a multi if you win, up to 3x, valour works as normal.

When you die, you only get xp/gold for another 30 seconds afterwards.


One addition I would LOVE to see added to this, is that the person who scores the killblow gets 3x xp for that person.
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Breidr on July 23, 2014, 10:03:16 pm
What about...

Rewarding "skill"(score) this way:
You get a DTV style reward(not affected by generation) according to this formula at end of map:

Gold: Score multiplied by Start parenthesis 31 minus level end parenthesis=Score*(31-Level)
Experience: Score*20*(31-Level)

All negative values should be treated as 0(Lvl 32+ generates negative values)
(click to show/hide)

Side effects: low level friends farming points on each other, the main benefit being that low level characters(alts) becomes a good source of income instead of semi-naked lvl 31+ running about fake peasanting.

Do note that 100 pts as level 1 is worth 12 min of x5 multi.

This I like.  Still has some downsides, but is nowhere near as harsh as it is now, and makes it so I'll actually play my alts, and siege!
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: UnholyRolyPoly on July 23, 2014, 10:25:06 pm
Yeah, I'll just flat out say it, I think it's absolute crap, especially on public servers.  It's become a special occasion when I can have x2 for a round now, or it at least feels that way.  If I put anything heavier than a Byrnie on, I seem to lose money, yet I see people run full plate all the time.

cRPG is a great concept, and I keep coming back to it, but it's the multiplier system that kills it for me.  I don't even play all that often, so when I do sit down to play, mostly on the weekends, it grates at me even more to be stuck at x1, and then the repair bills kick in and I just think "there's another three-five minutes of income gone."

I noticed some recent changes to team balance, and I still see games end in stomps with 20 enemies still standing, but at least it's being looked into. Is this ever going to happen to the EXP system?  I keep reading that the multiplier system was only temporary, but it doesn't seem that way.

I can tell you one thing, if Melee: Battlegrounds has a similar system, I'll probably pass on it as well.  Don't need to develop a love/hate relationship with too many games.


EDIT: I'd also like to add that it makes other game modes, like Siege, almost pointless in terms of progression, and that sucks because you get to fight a lot more in non-battle mode, but it's hardly populated.  Also, I still don't know what this "Rageball" thing is, or why it's on my server list.  :P

I'm not opposed to a fixed XP system with major bonuses to valor and minor bonuses to winning the round.  If the current system is a major problem to people then I'm not opposed to changing it.  I just rarely pay any attention.  I wear light armor.  My upkeep is balanced.  And I usually win plenty of rounds.  Overall I'm happy either way. 

Just a suggestion...  Marketplace trading can help generate revenue.  Get a +3 Item and swap it for other +3's in the same class (especially weapons) and ask for a little gold on top.  You can also try banner stacking or join an active clan.  Clans generally teamwork better because of TS.  A good clan can coordinate and help you win more rounds etc etc.  I don't know how long you've played or if you're already doing those things.  But if not....  try it out.  You might find that CRPG is a lot more fun when you play with other people. 
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Breidr on July 25, 2014, 04:24:12 am
Not only did I lose my x5 recently before this, but between that and the bullshit team balance, it completely sapped my desire to play in about 30 seconds.  GG cRPG. 23-0
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Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Admerius on July 25, 2014, 10:34:31 am
If score etc affects gold/exp gain at the end of the round, then nudging people of the edges of things to punish their score/K:D becomes even better

But that messes with Valor as well, it will just affect all players xp/gold if you do that.

The code that gives this bonus would be inserted just before or after valor in the flowcharts.


Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Thryn on July 25, 2014, 04:37:36 pm
If you notice it, you'll see that most of the team is fat and the other half is carrying it along. The problem with the XP system is that it rewards leeching rather than strong gameplay. Even the noobs in NW melee more than some of these nerdbags just standing at spawn collecting their XP.
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Breidr on July 27, 2014, 02:59:31 am
If you notice it, you'll see that most of the team is fat and the other half is carrying it along. The problem with the XP system is that it rewards leeching rather than strong gameplay. Even the noobs in NW melee more than some of these nerdbags just standing at spawn collecting their XP.

Just give me offline ticks so I can stop playing this game and just log in everyday to update my character sheet.  I think I'd have more fun, really.
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: San on July 27, 2014, 04:48:58 am
If you notice it, you'll see that most of the team is fat and the other half is carrying it along. The problem with the XP system is that it rewards leeching rather than strong gameplay. Even the noobs in NW melee more than some of these nerdbags just standing at spawn collecting their XP.

My problem is that those who are very good essentially ride on a x5 all day because of valour anyways, while people who don't try at all can just leech. There's not much of a place for those in-between who want to play and have fun. They're just statistics in a team balancer. Even if team balance becomes more robust, a 50/50 win/loss is not that rewarding outside of your own personal enjoyment. Weeding out leechers by design (or nullifying their impact on enjoyment by introducing options other than the multiplier) with some sort of reward system for your average player that is sufficiently supporting his team would be a very good thing. There have been some great ideas already that wouldn't require that much work.
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Breidr on July 27, 2014, 04:58:23 am
My problem is that those who are very good essentially ride on a x5 all day because of valour anyways, while people who don't try at all can just leech. There's not much of a place for those in-between who want to play and have fun. They're just statistics in a team balancer. Even if team balance becomes more robust, a 50/50 win/loss is not that rewarding outside of your own personal enjoyment. Weeding out leechers by design (or nullifying their impact on enjoyment by introducing options other than the multiplier) with some sort of reward system for your average player that is sufficiently supporting his team would be a very good thing. There have been some great ideas already that wouldn't require that much work.

As one of those in between players, I can't bump this enough.
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Thryn on July 27, 2014, 08:41:30 am
I'm guessing that if we had a good balancer and a reward for good gameplay (like xp based on points gained in a round rather than valour, because sometimes valour is out of certain people's grasps), grinding wouldn't be so bad. There are loads of other ideas as well, but why make a long post when it's unecessary :3

Oh, and one thing that really needs to be done: Throwing weapons sticking in players on impact. I want dis bayck D:
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Breidr on July 27, 2014, 06:24:56 pm
I was going to try and retire one more time before taking another break, as I just hit 30, but I think I'll just say fuck it.  Last night I believe I spent almost 40 minutes at x1, fun, right, when you can't win?

Logged on today after lunch and ya know what, there's no point!  This may be simplifying the situation, but there was a certain individual that just ran the server when he appeared.  ridiculous scores like 25/2 in two rounds, and there were only about 20 people on each team.  If he's on your team, you get a multi, if not, tough shit.  Even if that weren't that case he gets valor every round, so why the fuck even bother.

I'm out bros. If I want to have a shitty gaming experience, I'll just reinstall War of the Roses, at least that had a decent EXP system.
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Utrakil on July 27, 2014, 06:45:06 pm
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Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: tisjester on July 27, 2014, 06:55:05 pm
Yeah, it's all twice as fast as it was.. so nobody should be bitching ha ha.

Getting x5 is a lot easier once you're skilled enough to make a difference on the team.

Mad about x1's? Just concentrate on getting better, and help change it!

If the team balancer was perfect, Team A would win as much as Team B and there would be only x1 and x2's anyway.
Title: Re: Can I reasonably expect a change to the current EXP/Multiplier system?
Post by: Breidr on July 27, 2014, 07:42:17 pm
A 25/2 isn't ridiculous at all. It's a good score, yes. But was has it to do with you having x1 for 40 minutes?

Also, I play more than 40 minutes on x1 every single day. Why is that a problem for you, is the multi the only thing you play for?
I am honest: The grind (or the levelling, if that even is a english word) + customization is what keeps me playing cRPG.
If I want to play, I play, even if I am on x1. Even with x1 I am grinding, so what.

Gold and xp gain already is ridiculous high compared to the good old times, levelling is really fast even on x1. Actually everything in this game is alot easier than it was in the first year or two. It's so friendly to newcomers and low-levels. There is even a server for low-levels, DTV to get alot of xp and even more, ridiculous amounts of gold in a few hours.

I don't know how people playing cRPG in 2014 still dare to complain about things like that.

Removing EXP from the equation for a moment, gold income at 50 a minute at x1 means I'm losing gold to upkeep, and I'm not even wearing expensive equipment.  I'm sorry I haven't been around long enough to amass a huge stockpile to allow me to fund decent gear despite my multi.  Yet I see people in full plate 24/7.

This game is starting to make even less sense.