cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: woody on June 29, 2014, 11:56:22 pm

Title: S Key Pls slow backpedal
Post by: woody on June 29, 2014, 11:56:22 pm
Playing as 1h no shield with pick axe did not realise before how many lame arse guys just s key backwards spamming left to right with a 2h/pole. Ok once or twice fine but high lvl guys can do this for ever. People cannot go that fast backwards while swinging a weapon its ridiculous.

Come on nerf this. The only people who will object are the s key back spammers and they should be ignored on the basis they are lower life forms than horse x bows.
Title: Re: S Key Pls slow backpedal
Post by: Switchtense on June 30, 2014, 12:07:56 am
Don't use a steel pick and get 6+ath :D
Title: Re: S Key Pls slow backpedal
Post by: woody on June 30, 2014, 12:44:19 am
Surprised I seem to be alone on thinking pressing s while swinging left and right is lame. Or that people cant run backwards that fast.
Title: Re: S Key Pls slow backpedal
Post by: Grumbs on June 30, 2014, 12:55:24 am
W is faster. If you stay out of kick range you shouldn't have much trouble with S keyers
Title: Re: S Key Pls slow backpedal
Post by: San on June 30, 2014, 01:58:54 am
Maybe. Backpedaling reduction would be okay, but I'm worried it would break the movement system very easily with the wrong tweaks. It's not like people wouldn't use A, D, and W spin attacks to "backpedal" either, so it doesn't feel like a true solution as well.

I do think that W+attack/block should be faster than it currently is. When an skeyer is holding an attack and the appraocher has to block, he moves so slow that the skeyer has most of the control. I also had an idea about something like an extra run tier for holding W+attack/block, but it wasn't polished and couldn't be done I believe.
Title: Re: S Key Pls slow backpedal
Post by: Rico on June 30, 2014, 02:33:54 am
Oh please do not screw the movement mechanics even more. Everyone should have understood by now that low agi builds are useful with long weapons and high agi builds are useful with short weapons. Using a short weapon with low agi gives the S-key heroes an advantage, using a long weapon with high agi wastes the potential of a high weapon speed approach. No need to break these rules, because they are obvious.

San, how can I bribe you so you undo the character turn rate limit, at least for swashbucklers?
Title: Re: S Key Pls slow backpedal
Post by: StonedSteel on June 30, 2014, 02:42:38 am
Good luck with this op. Tydeus and his team are all agi biased, and think there is nothing wrong or ridiculous with their playstyles. And since you literally CAN NOT defeat them without taking more agi yourself...well you can see where im going with this.

Back in chadz crpg you could make multiple builds that do well against anything...that was then. This is Chaos crpg, and you will play the game the way THEY want you to play, or u will fail \ get banned.

Harsh words, and while some of the people im aiming them at, are cool people, great players, i ultimately blame them for whats happened to crpg. I ve had multiple conversations with very old crpg players, and we all see the same thing, how one clan with all the power cant...hmm, make you wonder.
Title: Re: S Key Pls slow backpedal
Post by: San on June 30, 2014, 02:43:00 am
Is it that noticeable? I would imagine only the 100+ length would really feel anything.

Good points Panuru.
Title: Re: S Key Pls slow backpedal
Post by: Rico on June 30, 2014, 03:01:47 am
What are you referring to?
>Is it that noticeable? I would imagine only the 100+ length would really feel anything.
Title: Re: S Key Pls slow backpedal
Post by: San on June 30, 2014, 07:03:23 am
Mostly, I don't really notice the effects of the turn rate limit on most 1handers until I use weapons such as the spathion and arabian cavalry sword. I was wondering if it was that much of a hindrance for you.
Title: Re: S Key Pls slow backpedal
Post by: XyNox on June 30, 2014, 12:53:03 pm
Continual S-Key spam surely is one of the lamest "tactics" in melee combat in the game, coupled with spamming hiltslashes as a high agi 2h. I wouldnt mind every class getting a form of the knockdown nudge against backpaddlers, which only swashbucklers have at the moment.
Title: Re: S Key Pls slow backpedal
Post by: Rico on June 30, 2014, 04:14:42 pm
Yes San, it is a terrible hindrance for me. If I want to land a well-timed hit now, I have to look directly at the enemy; he must be permanently centered at my screen. Before the patch, I could sneak in a stab from far away, without risking that my character's reaching out hand gets struck. Overheads could land from the side - I am not saying that I want to take a greatsword, hit the ground with it, turn to the left and the enemy is supposed to take damage; it was good that you removed this - but when the mouse movement is good enough to make an otherwise missing overhead from far away land directly on the head of the enemy, a capped turn rate should not prevent the swing from hitting. The right swing had a very wide cone where it dealt damage, now it is much smaller due to the turn rate nerf. The latter is observable especially with short weapons.

Patoson recorded a video about the turn rate nerf mechanics. I try to show some attacks that would have hit before the patch and now miss due to turn rate nerf. Going to upload it soon.

I think the combat would have more depth without the turn rate nerf. I understand if you think that two handed weapons, polearms and one handed weapons with shields are well-balanced and the turn rate nerf is fair. As a shielder, you always turn your shield towards the enemy, which makes you automatically focus him in the center of your screen. And two handed weapons and polearms are unarguably strong anyways. But for some one handed weapons, when they are used without a shield, it is rather intuitive NOT to look directly at the enemy, because stuff like swashbuckling an Espada is good when you have a great momentum and a surprise effect, and you get this by fast camera movement.

A swashbuckler does not have both hands on a hilt, and does not carry a shield that would restrict movements. To me, it feels natural that a swashbuckler should not suffer turn rate penalties. With little advantages over other classes, this would make the swashbuckler style at least swift and dynamic - the way it should be.
Title: Re: S Key Pls slow backpedal
Post by: Teeth on June 30, 2014, 04:49:49 pm
With speeding up the combat people have grown fearful of being facehugged with close to 100 speed weapons and naturally players with slower weapons will choose to backpedal, making it a lot easier to block the fast attacks. Honestly I don't see why facehugging leftswinging shielders have the moral high ground towards s-keying 2h heroes. If the one class has really good animations and speed up close, naturally the class with the longer weapon will try to play at it's own strenghts, reach.

Nerfing backpedal speed has far reaching effects on gameplay, most importantly on making it harder to fight 1 versus 1+, which is already hard enough. Also with the range of kicks lower backpedal speed will make them really OP.
Title: Re: S Key Pls slow backpedal
Post by: Rico on June 30, 2014, 05:43:51 pm
Here is the announced video:


The Espada thrusts would have all hit or dealt significantly more damage before the turn rate nerf. That was what made this weapon interesting and tricky to use. The overheads I used in the video aren't very well timed and look weird, which is probably because of the artificial situation of a completely stationary enemy. It is still obvious that the weapon is much much much much faster than the maximum turn rate of the character. It makes sense to move an arm faster than the whole body, but in real life, you can move your arm however you want, and in Warband, only in 4 different ways. A faster turn rate for swashbucklers who do not restrict their movement with a shield or a large weapon makes sense, in my opinion, and it would compensate the limited attack directions with a more responsive camera. The point of the right swings, which hit Patoson but glance, or barely miss, is to show that the right swing is still, even with the new animation, an attack that requires good aim and timing when you do not want to glance (especially with a weapon like Espada). Good aim and timing are impossible when the right swing is started from afar and the turn rate is low, which makes the right swing another attack of situational use for swashbucklers: Perform it only when you have the enemy centered on your screen, but do not try to get any tricky timing done.

The Hand Axe part looks really ridiculous, and it seems like I am missing on purpose, but I am not. With such a weapon, it should not be impossible to move fast and hit swings from a far angle, because this weapon is fast, compact and light, and it should allow better movement than a greatsword or an awlpike, for example. Even though my character is standing directly next to Patoson, it is sometimes impossible to turn to him fast enough to hit with the Axe. Similar with the Knife.

Allow me a weird comparison: cRPG characters behave like a StuG III casemate:
Quote
In regards to armoured fighting vehicles, casemate design refers to vehicles that have their main gun mounted directly within the hull and lack the rotating turret commonly associated with tanks. Such a design generally makes the vehicle mechanically simpler in design, less costly in construction, lighter in weight and lower in profile. The saved weight can be used to mount a heavier, more powerful gun or alternatively increase the vehicle's armour protection in comparison to regular, turreted tanks. However, in combat the crew has to rotate the entire vehicle if an enemy target presents itself outside of the vehicle's limited gun traverse arc. This can prove very disadvantageous in combat situations with no clearly drawn front line.

If they had the agility of a shifting dune, I would not mind. But you can have builds with fast running speed, fast weapons and high wpf, without a shield or large weapon to restrict your movement, and you still can not even land hits that require more than a tad bit of turning.

P.S.: Sankyu Patoson for volunteering your time and your bandwith
Title: Re: S Key Pls slow backpedal
Post by: San on June 30, 2014, 06:12:56 pm
Sweetspots were tightened on all attacks, but the turn rate hasn't been changed in well over a year. That's why the drag overheads, late stabs, and swings end up glancing where they would have landed more easily at the beginning of 2014. Side swings never received a turn nerf of any sort afaik since I started playing. This coupled with high speed weapons (the espada and hand axe both being 101+ at least) makes it so that you have less time to turn.

I see what you mean, though, but comparatively, 1h has the best turn rate already. Could be worth looking into for all weapon types with the new sweetspots and relaying some thoughts to the higher-ups.
Title: Re: S Key Pls slow backpedal
Post by: XyNox on July 01, 2014, 12:49:22 am
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on June 30, 2014, 02:32:33 pm
And requires you to be right in their face... which requires you to not be blocking, and leaves you horrendously open to kicks which are more consistent at connecting and far longer reach than nudges

Tbh it already works quite well when you play 1h only and specifically pay attention to opportunities to use attack-nudge when the criteria are met. The range is even quite large from a melee point of view, you dont have to touch the enemy playermodel at all. The only problem I got with knockdown nudge currently is that it only immobilizes the lower part of the body. Your enemy will fall down but he can still block/attack.
Title: Re: S Key Pls slow backpedal
Post by: Gravoth_iii on July 01, 2014, 03:02:05 am
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on June 30, 2014, 05:13:26 pm
Backpedaling vs facehuggers is one thing, but we arent all facehuggers. Not every 1hander is even a facehugger. I hate picks more than most, but still... backpedalling is just gayness.

S-key is a strategy to keep control of the fight, especially vs shorter weapons. If you cant learn how to fight this with a short weapon then get a longer one. If someone is backpeddal spamming usually a single hold attack puts them off their tempo.

If backpeddaling wasnt an option you would get shit on by the insane speed and confusing animations of 1h.

Quote from: HESKEYTIME on June 30, 2014, 05:13:26 pm
Backpedaling vs facehuggers is one thing, but we arent all facehuggers. Not every 1hander is even a facehugger. I hate picks more than most, but still... backpedalling is just gayness.

If you get the chance to facehug and dont then you are not making full use of being 1h, just like how a longer weapons should make us of, guess what, the range through backpeddaling. Its just how the game works, what people have found to be the most effective ways to play their classes. Changing this would change too much of a core mechanic in the game i feel.




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Title: Re: S Key Pls slow backpedal
Post by: Kafein on July 01, 2014, 02:12:25 pm
Quote from: Grumbs on June 30, 2014, 12:55:24 am
W is faster. If you stay out of kick range you shouldn't have much trouble with S keyers

W isn't faster when holding an attack or block. It's actually the exact same speed as S.
Title: Re: S Key Pls slow backpedal
Post by: Gravoth_iii on July 01, 2014, 03:01:31 pm
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on July 01, 2014, 07:39:21 am
Nudge

And not lolstabbing or hitting through walls is not full use of a 2hander or polearmer, but i dont see how that improves the game. Just cos you can do it, does not mean it's a positive thing for the mod - like getting so close that people can't see your animations, or the reaction to this which is to fight your entire battle holding the 'Run Away' key, it shits all over immersion if that was even possible in this game. Like with everything to do with this mod, agree to disagree.

Nudge isnt very reliable.

You say all these things are bad for the mod, maybe for immersion but thats not what we play it for is it? no its because its competative, its difficult and theres a lot of neat stuff you can learn to make the fight in your favor. People usually call these things abuse but i just see it as knowledge and skill, remove this and suddenly the game becomes very dull, block-attack-block with no real strategies but patience untill one fails multiple blocks enough to die.
Title: Re: S Key Pls slow backpedal
Post by: Rico on July 01, 2014, 03:53:27 pm
Quote from: Gravoth_iii on July 01, 2014, 03:02:05 am
REMOVE TURNRATE NERF 2k14 PLS, it's still pissing me off more than anything in this game, it just makes the game feel clunky.

Haven't you heard what San said? There hasn't been any sort of turn rate nerf at all since over a year!

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Title: Re: S Key Pls slow backpedal
Post by: San on July 01, 2014, 04:12:19 pm
Yeah, the turnrate stuff is from 2012 (or was it 2011..), maybe the beginning of 2013, and kept the same until now.
Title: Re: S Key Pls slow backpedal
Post by: Gravoth_iii on July 01, 2014, 06:07:24 pm
Quote from: Panuru on July 01, 2014, 03:53:27 pm
Haven't you heard what San said? There hasn't been any sort of turn rate nerf at all since over a year!

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Talking about the really old one, i want native turnrates.