cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Templar_Steevee on June 03, 2014, 10:33:03 pm

Title: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Templar_Steevee on June 03, 2014, 10:33:03 pm
I think pin point accuracy is a problem with tiny bows. Noone should have such good aim .

Getting pin-point accuracy with nomad or tatar bow isn't a problem, but IMO it should be impossible.

Below I posted screenshots while aiming with bows.
Every bow I used is MW, I have 6 PD and 198 wpf in archery (dedicated archer 18/27 lvl 35)
horn bow
(click to show/hide)
rus bow
(click to show/hide)
long bow
(click to show/hide)

As you can see non of those bows have pin point accuracy.
IMO max accuracy should be the one like on horn bow.
X-bows max accuracy is capped so why we shouldn't we have same thing in bows?

Why I'm for removing pin point accuracy?
1. There's no man at earth that can shoot tons of arrows in exactly same point. Body is getting tired and hands are shaking.
2. There are hardly ever perfect weather conditions allowing to make thing from point 1.

Admins can call this accuracy cap "wind factor" os something like that.


Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: jtobiasm on June 03, 2014, 10:39:49 pm
hehe we use the same crosshair

+1 agree though, the nomad/tatar needs an nerf
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Kafein on June 03, 2014, 10:40:01 pm
Low CoF is good because it puts power in the hands of the player, it pushes the skill ceiling higher. CoF is pure RNG and is a bad way of simulating imperfect accuracy. But we can't implement something better.

In my opinion the good way of reducing accuracy is to nerf missile speed, and increase the timing constraint. Right now projectiles fly much too fast, hence very little leading is required. Making arrows slower would punish bad archery and reward good archery. Additionally, a bow can be held fully drawn for much too long without losing significant power and accuracy. Making the time window shorter would introduce an element of timing similar to hold breath mechanics in traditional FPS. That would increase the player skill requirement for using a bow.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Templar_Steevee on June 03, 2014, 10:42:57 pm
Quote from: Kafein on June 03, 2014, 10:40:01 pm
...nerf missile speed...
I'm talking about it for a really long time :)
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Jeade on June 03, 2014, 11:46:57 pm
Quote from: Kafein on June 03, 2014, 10:40:01 pm
nerf missile speed, and increase the timing constraint. ... Additionally, a bow can be held fully drawn for much too long without losing significant power and accuracy.

How about no.
If you're suggesting nerfing the missile speed on the nomad bow, yes, do that.
That would effectively put the bow in its place as a low tier bow.
The nomad bow's draw speed is absurd for its accuracy and missile speed, and as it follows, damage.

The other bows are fine.

As for the OP, pinpoint accuracy shouldn't be part of the game (personal opinion, strictly).
However, using a build with 198 archery WPF is far outside the norm from most archers.
The level 35 part should be bolded or something in the main post.

Maybe it's different in EU, but I'm not familiar with any archers in NA, save maybe one, who use a build like that.
If they are using a build like that, it's never been effective enough for me to notice.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Templar_Steevee on June 04, 2014, 12:02:54 am
You can easilly make a stf char with pinpoint accuracy
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Grumbs on June 04, 2014, 12:10:15 am
COF doesn't separate the good and bad players. It doesn't punish you for doing badly or reward you for doing well

If accurate ranged is an issue that says a lot about the game mechanics. The parameters that determine whether a shot is good or not is the problem. ATM you just have minimal missile speed that makes you lead a target a bit, with minimal projectile dip that means you don't have to judge the distance so much. There is no modern game mechanics like sway of the weapon..its a fixed point that never deviates. With a xbow you can hold the shot forever. You can even run&gun with them. No momentum when you turn. Loads of ammo so you aren't punished for just spamming. Its just got a very "meh" set of game mechanics, so much so that people don't even want people to hit stuff even if they couldn't physically do anything better as far as the game is concerned. They will just miss based on random chance rather than something to do with how the players interact with the game

Ranged should be more of a player vs player system. Enemies should be able to counter by playing well (dodging). Ranged should have to be more careful with ammo and do more to make a "good" shot. But if you do well you should not be punished with a random chance of missing
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Little Lord Lollipop on June 04, 2014, 12:16:58 am
Balance bows through pricing, the intra-class stats balance is fine. Right now the higher tier bows are for archers who wish to counter heavy armor, the little bows are best to counter other range. The problem with bows is that lower tier bows are too cheap and higher tier bows are too expensive.
Every bow is currently viable at the moment which gives a lot of diversity to the class (unlike in the past when everyone and their mother used a rus bow etc etc).

TLDR; Balance bow prices, don't fuck with the stats.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: XyNox on June 04, 2014, 12:19:47 am
Missile speeds is something I am thinking about again and again and I can see how the system right now feels kinda awkward but I am hesitating to propose a change yet. This is why:

Prior to the low tier bows missile-speed-buff, next to nobody used them. Other than melee weapons, bows dont have a lot of stats than can be messed around with, which makes it pretty difficult to make bow tier progression interesting and diversified.

Melee weapons can have very diverse combinations of stats, drawing from a large pool of modifiers such as weight, length, speed, swing damage, swing damage type, thrust damage, thrust damage type, balanced, unbalanced, bonues against shields, crushthrough, 4 directional, 3 directional, 2 directional, knockdown, horse rearing, no parry and probably more. This is why we have a metric ton of melee weapons which, more or less still all feel different and come with their distinct benefits and downsides instead of just being straight upgrades or clones from each other.

Bows on the other hand are very limited in that regard. Pretty much the only stats that matter for bow performance are speed rating, damage, accuracy and missile speed. Sure, bows have weight as well but the weight of a bow will have no impact on balance when it comes to the actual shooting performance. An arrow from a 2kg bow will have the exact same ballistical properties as an arrow shot from a 10kg bow, contrary to melee weaponry where weight actually affects turnrate, knockdown probability, movement speed and block stun probability.

Even accuracy is a bit problematic to look at as a balancing factor IMO since it is a non-skill related modifier and not a constant that can be mastered by player skill. To give yet another example, no matter how low the speed rating of your melee weapon is, a skilled player will know the limitations of this low speed rating and be able to act accordingly. You dont try to outspam a katana with a longspear but rather keep your distance and take advantage of your reach so the low speed rating is least likely to get in your way. With an inaccurate bow though, it does not matter how skilled of an archer you are, if RNG decides to mess up your shot you cant do anything about that and this is not good gamedesign at all.

With this said, I'd rather not touch accuracy if its avoidable and rather work with damage, speed rating and missile speed. With only 3 variables at hand though, the possibilities to create an interesting and fair progression among bows is obviously quite restricted. This situation begs for the implementation of a new mechanic such as "reticule sway rating" or something alike. However, I talked to Tydeus about these things a lot and unfortunately the gameengine is just too limited to realize any of that.

So what are we left with ?

We can have low tier bows with fast reload, low damage and slow arrows ( old system ), we can have low tier bows with fast reload, low damage and fast arrows ( current system ). Giving low tier bows more damage than high tier bows is out of the question and giving high tier bows faster reload than low tier bows also seems a bit weird.

I repeat, the current system is bugging me as well every now and then but when considering all the alternatives this engine can offer, I think the current system is still the one that offers the most fair bow progression IMO. This is why I am hesitating to propose anything different yet. For now, I am afraid any attempts to "fix" internal bow balance might break more than needs to be repaired. At least unless cmp will come up with some magic that adds new balancing tool for ranged into the game.

This is how I look at it. Nevertheless, I appreciate any form of constructive criticism or suggestions as long as they are more elaborated than "nerf missile speed" because that would require a stat rework for all bows in order to keep bow progression at an appropriate proportion.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Templar_Steevee on June 04, 2014, 12:45:17 am
XyNox
By nerfing misile speed I mean decreasing it on nomad and tatar bow to values close to horn bow have atm.
Why? Horn bow is strongest (highest DMG) from one slot composit bows (i'm not talking about yumi, this bow is kind a joke and missundestand for me).
So it should mean that arrows released from it should have higher speed.

Non loomed horn bow have 44 missile speed. IMO you should try and give 43 ms for nomad bow and 45 for tatar bow (as i know it's recurved bow and accumulated energy in it is higher than in horn bow with same dimentions).
Changing only missile speed you will not naef them directly. They will be still perfect against other ranged because of their speed and accuracy, archers will only have to get used to a bit slower projectiles and that's all.

Making arrows a bit slower you will force archers to have higher skill in aiming because ATM shooting with tatar bow is close to shooting with rifle. Aim, click, hit, because arrows are really hard to dodge in medium range.

Let's give a try for decreasing missile on those two bows for let's say a week with stats I suggested and you will see that good archers will still kill with them, and noobs will have to increase their skill in aiming to be effective.
 
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: XyNox on June 04, 2014, 01:27:55 am
I see your point about the required player skill Steevee. Nobody likes to be killed by a player of inferior playerskill just because his equipment is doing the job for him.

A nomad bow with 43 missile speed and 21 damage will be quite useless though.

Even with the high missile speed of 48 the nomad bow has right now it is a subpar choice against anything in medium armour and up. Because of the way armour soak works, bodkins scale a lot better with high base bow damage than with low base bow damage. Also, the ammo efficiency is poor compared to harder hitting bows and the maximum damage increase of powerdraw is reached quite early at just 6 PD.

With 43 missile speed this thing would probably never be seen again appart from low tier dtv "leech" waves and maybe rageball. There may be some melee weapons as well which are not exactly overused but contrary to melee weapons where we have a stunning total of 180 items, the bow category just offers 8. This proposal would make the nomad bow the new shortbow, which also nobody uses other than for trolling.

I am sorry, this bow may be annoying, especially against archers but I dont see how its overall battlefield performance is justifying a major nerf like this. I remember the times before the missile speed overhaul and taking a rusbow/longbow was a no brainer there. These days however I constantly switch bows because of their distinct benefits and downsides and I think this is a good thing.

I will talk to the council again, maybe there are some technical possibilities that havent been considered yet.

E: prices on the otherhand could use some reevaluation I guess.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Leshma on June 04, 2014, 01:43:42 am
Nerf archers.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: BlindGuy on June 04, 2014, 02:18:42 am
Steevee: just look at who are the "balance team" atm, and Xynox as item advisor, and give up all hope. Common sense, historical accuracy and game balance have been thrown to the dogs long ago, best to shake head, grimace and think to yourself what could have been.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Jona on June 04, 2014, 02:34:03 am
Quote from: XyNox on June 04, 2014, 01:27:55 am
Nobody likes to be killed by a player of inferior playerskill just because his equipment is doing the job for him.

Heh... if this was the case no one would be playing crpg.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Dark_Blade on June 04, 2014, 02:35:56 am
in my opinion the one and only good way to fix the issue is removing the ranged and bows especially
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Tydeus on June 04, 2014, 03:06:54 am
Quote from: BlindGuy on June 04, 2014, 02:18:42 am
Steevee: just look at who are the "balance team" atm, and Xynox as item advisor, and give up all hope. Common sense, historical accuracy and game balance have been thrown to the dogs long ago, best to shake head, grimace and think to yourself what could have been.
Most long time players that I talk to think cRPG's current problem is that it's too balanced (understandable). Yet here you are stating the exact opposite. To be honest BlindGuy, I'm not sure we could ever satisfy you, even if (however unrealistic) that was our sole objective. Hell, I'm not even sure you know what it is you want.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Rico on June 04, 2014, 05:33:36 am
I hope to show some of the people who intuitively voted against pinpoint accuracy why they were wrong. In essence, pinpoint accuracy as well as high missile speed on low-tier bows reduces (!) the danger archers are for infantry and cavalry, and adds diversity to the archery class without breaking balance. This seems counter-intuitive at first, but it is plausible once you understood it. Please read my text.

It's really hard to keep this short. I don't want to bore you, but I don't want to seem rude either. Forgive me if anything I write either bores or offends you.

With level 35, 18/27 and 185 archery wpf, my build is considered agi-centric and squishy compared to the usual 18/24 "max athletics max powerstrike some ironflesh"-version other archers of my level usually pick. I get pinpoint accuracy with Nomad Bow and Tatar Bow only, and need at least 2 headshots and 1 body shot to kill a Kuyak hero with a helmet like Chapel de Fer. Even with pinpoint accuracy, this is hard to pull of, and I feel like I deserve the kill. Other bows do not have pinpoint accuracy with my build, the crosshair is rather wide.

I think the current system allowing high-agi archers to obtain pinpoint accuracy with low-tier bows is good. I also consider the high missile speed an important, well balanced feature of low-tier bows. These are the reasons for my opinion:
I think the poll in the opening post is not representative. It is distorted at the expense of pinpoint accuracy because:
In my opinion, the council did a good job when they increased accuracy and missile speed of low-tier bows. I completely agree with everything Xynox wrote for the reasons listed above. The only thing that is wrong right now are the upkeep prices. Tatar Bow and Nomad Bow should be more expensive, because they are just as useable as Long Bow, Rus Bow and Horn Bow, with the exception that the variety of targets is limited to weakly-armored opponents, especially enemy ranged. In particular, the Nomad Bow is way to cheap for what it does. If I could decide, I would give the Tatar Bow the same price as the Bow, and the Nomad Bow an upkeep of 450 gold so that it is in between the Bow and the Horn Bow. The Nomad Bow should be more expensive than the Tatar Bow, because it is even better at placing accurate headshots against enemy archers than the Tatar Bow.

Sankyu for reading. I hope I convinced you.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Hoppster on June 04, 2014, 05:45:54 am
Quote from: Tydeus on June 04, 2014, 03:06:54 am
To be honest BlindGuy, I'm not sure we could ever satisfy you

Honey, i've been trying for years  :lol:

As for OP; i've not played archer very much, so i can't say much from a my old friendchers perspective. but from a medium/heavy armoured melee perspective nomad/ tatar bow users arent really a major threat unless there in a group. It might be annoying for you stevvee coz they can machine gun u with your longbow. but i quite like the fact that the archers that can't really hurt me on their own are going arond killing the archers that can hurt me on their own. id say with there much smaller effective range and lack of power those bows should be more acurate and faster than the bigger bows

As tydeus said the games pretty balanced atm. Not perfect but as good as ive known it to be
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: DKNhz on June 04, 2014, 06:32:34 am
Quote from: Panuru on April 25, 2014, 02:01:14 pm
I can imagine some archers are pissed because of the agi archers with their fast and accurate bows. But these builds are designed to hunt other archers. It's like a no-shield-onehander crying about a horse archer or heavy cav hunting him. It is a natural counter, and you are supposed to rage about that. Deal with it.

Dat.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Grumbs on June 04, 2014, 09:06:33 am
(click to show/hide)

Using ranged to counter ranged is a really sloppy way to balance. That shouldn't be a necessity in the first place because the lower PD bows are still very effective at killing infantry, for the same reasons they may be better at killing ranged. Its still pierce, there is hardly any prediction required and they still hit through armour perfectly fine. Longbows might do more damage, but they won't hit people as often and take longer to draw a shot.

Ideally what we need is to have more weaknesses in the ranged classes that can be exploited by different classes. You shouldn't have to have ranged going after ranged, its backwards balancing and creates a feedback loop that exacerbates any ranged issues. No one should be playing ranged to shoot other ranged. People should be going cav or shielder. That creates a more varied and balanceable game.

I'd suggest just making melee and cav better at killing ranged. The 0 slot weapons are way too good, 1 handers have too much weight so aren't stunned as much as before. You shouldn't have a 2 hander by taking 1 stack of arrows. You shouldn't have as much armour. You shouldn't have PS or be able to split WPF between melee and ranged. Low armour should have more downsides, or heavier armour should be better and exclusively used by melee. Ranged are just too versatile of a class and too easy to do well with. Especially xbowers with decent armour and 1 hander

Stuff like that will create natural balance that doesn't simply add more ranged to the game.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Gnjus on June 04, 2014, 09:17:33 am
Seriously.......people like Xynox becoming "Item Advisers" ? People like Casper Baggelund becoming admins ? What's next ? Panos & Blind Guy the Overlords ? Corsair the Main Balancer ? This mod had turned into a god damn freak show........
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Algarn on June 04, 2014, 10:46:24 am
To anyone thinking that nomad bows and tatar bows aren't deadly, I can say from my point of view, that they are a realy threat when the guy using them knows what he does. Simple as that. If you drop instant headshots with pin point accuracy to a target with less then 50 body armor with a tatar bow, you'll kill him faster than with the rus/long bow on this point, since he won't be that able to dodge, because you draw quickly the bow, the arrow is almost instant, and you can, afaik, hold the bow drawn for years. It's simply too easy to use, and even if I do agree with the reload time, and partially high accuracy, a weaker archer (ex: 4PD) shouldn't be able to hold the bow for years compared to a "strong archer" (ex: 6/7PD or more), and missile speed SHOULD come from PD, which is for me how much you can draw the string of the bow. As we can't do things like that, nomad bows, designed for horse archers, and physically "light" archers, should see their missile speed lowered. Hunting archers with high rate of fire and high accuracy should be enough, no need to have such instant missile speed.

Also, note that I didn't mention damages. Damages become high when you use bodkin arrows, or tatar on light armored targets or with less than 45 body armor, and of course, with PD bonus maxed or almost maxed.



Also, to Grumbs, archery is a sacrifice of PD, and wpf in archery, and so is using an armor for my part, mail armors bring A LOT of disavantages, because you move slowly compared to other archers, you draw the bow slowly (doesn't matter if this is high or low tier bow, you're simpoly slower, since the wpf reduction is not linear with the armor), and do not forget that an archer already got low wpf in melee (got 40 atm, for 129 wpf in archery), and you can easily spam an archer with low wpf and an armor. Play with a heavy stuff at your own risk, you will be protected, but won't dodge cavs, arrows, and you'll loose the ability to flee effectively from a fight with your bow and arrows on you.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Templar_Steevee on June 04, 2014, 12:13:03 pm
I support Algarn.
Reducing missile speed will only force archers using those tiny bows to learn to shoot, not only laser shooting.
Their ability of spamming arrows with perfect accuracy will stay the same, so archers using those bows will still be suprior to long bow users (to be honest i love shooting low tier bow users and don't afraid them :D )
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Mr.K. on June 04, 2014, 12:23:52 pm
Having played with Yumi on horseback for a while now it feels much more realistic for me than something like a nomad bow. I think all bows should feel similar.

Faster draw speed is key against other archers anyway, that should be enough of an advantage for the lower tier bows, they don't need the sniper like accuracy and lightning speed arrows as well. No bow should be able to hit the same spot every time from 200 meters like Nomad can do now. Also the prices in no way reflect the efficiency of the bow. Tatar bow costs three times as much as nomad and is arguably worse. Maybe increase the damage slightly on the lower tier bows or make them just a tad faster, but get the missile speeds to the same level as Yumi and Long Bow. They would still hit at long ranges if you know how to aim and they would still be better against enemy archers.

I also agree with the 0 slot weapons being too good, especially for xbows.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Tomas_Miles_again on June 04, 2014, 12:35:11 pm
Would it be possible to make a predefined weapon sway path with WSE2? For example a left to right and up to down sway which is deterministic and thus can be compensated by the player?
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Tydeus on June 04, 2014, 02:14:15 pm
Quote from: Panuru on June 04, 2014, 05:33:36 am
(click to show/hide)
This guy understands.

It's not that the nomad and tatar aren't deadly, it's that they're only good against low-medium armor values, and who generally has the lowest armor values? Fellow ranged. That being said, I do think there's room to lower projectile speed slightly, but only by one or two points on the weapon itself.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

*Ignore the "armor" row at the very top.

If a Long Bow or a Rus Bow is too hard for you to consistently land shots with, then use a 1s bow, otherwise you're probably much better off with one of those two bows (particularly for EU, where everyone stacks higher amounts of armor.)

Edit: All cut damage values are 1-2 points higher than they actually should be, since these numbers are tested with a 12c Tatar arrow, rather than the current 10c.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: BlindGuy on June 05, 2014, 03:25:28 am
Quote from: Tydeus on June 04, 2014, 03:06:54 am
Most long time players that I talk to think cRPG's current problem is that it's too balanced (understandable). Yet here you are stating the exact opposite. To be honest BlindGuy, I'm not sure we could ever satisfy you, even if (however unrealistic) that was our sole objective. Hell, I'm not even sure you know what it is you want.

Mate we could revert to some rules. RULE ONE, common sense rule. yumi is massive and 1 slot, bow is tiny and 2 slot. Sort your fucking life out Tydeus.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Tydeus on June 05, 2014, 03:49:26 am
Quote from: BlindGuy on June 05, 2014, 03:25:28 am
Mate we could revert to some rules. RULE ONE, common sense rule. yumi is massive and 1 slot, bow is tiny and 2 slot. Sort your fucking life out Tydeus.
You are one classy cat. How you manage to transition so quickly from items to this type of personal insult is completely beyond me.

If we're talking about balance, which was a word you used first, models (specifically in the case of bows) are completely irrelevant. The only thing that matters for bow balance are the item stats. We can talk about realism as long as we want, but at the end of the day, balance trumps all. The previous issue with bows, before I reworked their stats, was that only three bows were ever getting used. So things were changed for the sake of variety, something most people in this community tend to think of as being rather important.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Prinz_Karl on June 05, 2014, 05:04:07 am
I understand that you steevee have a very good build but holy shit, I didn't know archers were THIS accurate. I don't know who is responsible for this but come on, archers accuracy shouldn't exceed actual historical accuracy or this game mode just looks ridiculous.


Also don't forget that archers are unliked because of their incompatibility in multiplayer game. Usually they aren't that good and not doing that much kills but if they do it's horribly annoying for the guy getting shot, as he has no real counter. Archers and especially horseachers shouldn't wonder why they are hated.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Templar_Steevee on June 05, 2014, 07:58:12 am
I sacrifice melee abilities to be accurate like this, my lvl 35 char have 2 ps and 1 wpf in 1h, so that's fair IMO. It's squished foot archer char.
You should also remember that all bows I used were MW.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Joseph Porta on June 05, 2014, 11:35:28 am
Nomad and tatar bows are quite simply headshot machines, headshots are far too easy with these. Playing with unloomed bows getting headshots is the only way to effectively get kills if you are not solely aiming for unarmored players.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Molly on June 05, 2014, 11:50:45 am
I thought that I arranged myself with archers. They felt less annoying for some reason.
Over the last couple of days I noticed that those dead on accurate machine guns seem to be back. Dunno how or why but being headshot or killed by 3 bodyshots in rapid succession by a tiny horn bow across half the map is kinda screwed up.
I improved in dodging quite a bit and manage to do it a lot. But it only works to a degree. When 3 archers aim for you and you manage to dodge 8 out of 10 arrows, you're still dead in a few seconds.

I don't claim to know a proper way to counter such a development but I've seen at least 10 people switching server or straight quitting the game, just on this one map. That ain't cool.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Teeth on June 05, 2014, 12:14:03 pm
I think giving the low tier bows high missile speed was a huge mistake. As has been argued in this thread their low damage and high missile speed makes other archers the perfect target, but I just think that is an extremely lame way of balancing things. For example, I used to play lance cavalry in a very anti infantry focused way. High PS and low movement speed, hanging around the fight, distracting people and dishing out a lot of hits. Very often however, there would be couch cavalry players that completely focus on killing other cavalry and it is incredibly annoying. I am trying to make my team win by using my horse to influence the outcome of group fights the best I can, and these fast cav fucks only focus on getting easy cav kills which makes them the perfect counter to my playstyle.

The same scenario has been happening to longbow archers, but then increased by a factor of like 10. Now I don't usually sympathize with pure archers and arguing against ranged countering ranged is probably not smart, but giving the fastest and most accurate bows such vastly superior missile speed values is just a huge big fuck you to any archer that is trying to make his team win by taking out key infantry targets. I honestly don't know how the likes of Steevee and jtobiasm haven't GTX'ed in the face of the balance encouraging people like Shokoshugi to focus on nothing else but ruining their day, all day.

Missile speed is the devil and it should be nerfed to seperate the wheat from the chaff. Pin-point accuracy is fine but increase accuracy sway from moving quickly from side to side, decrease missile speed and increase how fast accuracy reduces from holding your shot. Timing and leading your targets are the only sources for really putting skill into archery.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Algarn on June 05, 2014, 12:27:06 pm
(click to show/hide)

Agreed to everything, except for the last part about increasing how fast accuracy should decrease when you hold. This last part should depend exclusively, or at least, principally of PD. Strength archer builds aren't that viable already, no need to fuck them again (low wpf  = shit holding time, which is already shitty)
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: BlindGuy on June 05, 2014, 01:02:38 pm
Quote from: Tydeus on June 05, 2014, 03:49:26 am
Blah blah blah I dont ever watch and learn from my mistakes.

(click to show/hide)

As far as the smaller bows: 1/ Their accuracy/damage/firerate is obscene, and I'll explain it simply so Tydeus can manage the ideas without getting his head sweaty: I will use simplified values and use A and B to make this as easy as possible:

Weapon A hits for 100 dmg, can fire once a second and has an accuracy of 100.
Weapon B hits for 60 dmg, can fire three times in 2 seconds and has an accuracy of 150.

Which does more dmg? Well, tbh, its B, isnt it? While A may hurt more, B has higher DPS since it has better rate of fire. But targets move and try to avoid being hit: who is going to hit more? Well, again B, since B is more accurate, and also has better rate of fire, so since you are firing more shots, with better accuracy, so missing is not such a big deal, missing one shot is a much smaller dent in your DPS for weapon B.

So weapon B is the superior, since in a live battle situation, the rate of fire combined with the accuracy mean 1/ you have more hits, more often and 2/ you have more OPPORTUNITY for hitting since you dont have to prepare for so long before shooting.

So B is the better weapon.

BUT WAIT THERES MORE: We will make the misiles fired by B FASTER than those fired by A. So now B does more effective damage due to hitting more often AND has faster misiles. B really is a good choice at this point.

SO surely, we can all see B is better: A must be cheaper right? NO, B is cheaper. Ok that's retarded? sure it is. Good point.

WAIT THERES MORE!!!

You don't need as high stats for B.

Wait WHAT? its the better weapon, with higher effective damage, costs less, and is EASIER to use? That's silly man. Yep, sure is.

What's the effect of this ease of use? Well the effect is that the user can put more of his points into agility, so he gets to RUN AWAY FASTER, SHOOT FASTER, AND MORE ACCURATELY!!

Long story short: B is faster, more deadly, more accurate, cheaper, gives more utility to the user.

YOUR A FUCKING RETARD TYDEUS. Happy  now? Fuck me.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Teeth on June 05, 2014, 01:17:06 pm
Few people manage to present such a flawed argument in such a cocksure manner ^
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: BlindGuy on June 05, 2014, 01:25:58 pm
Not really flawed though is it Teeth?
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Teeth on June 05, 2014, 01:40:04 pm
Quote from: BlindGuy on June 05, 2014, 01:02:38 pm
Weapon A hits for 100 dmg, can fire once a second and has an accuracy of 100.
Weapon B hits for 60 dmg, can fire three times in 2 seconds and has an accuracy of 150.

Which does more dmg? Well, tbh, its B, isnt it? While A may hurt more, B has higher DPS since it has better rate of fire.
Well, first of all there is this

A) 1 * 100 = 100 dps
B) 1,5 * 60 = 90 dps

A has higher DPS

Though even that little error is irrelevant, as you simply pulled some numbers out of your arse. Calling someone a 'fucking retard' because you invented a case where he is wrong is quite an incredible way of handling things. Your guesstimates of damage, accuracy and fire rate are downright terrible and if you are lucky Tydeus will spare you the real math. The argumentation itself is sound, but an argument based on flawed data is a flawed argument by default.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: BlindGuy on June 05, 2014, 02:05:53 pm
Yes teeth, because every shot taken by every archer is a hit. Not one miss. Ever.

EDIT: your being slow today teeth so let me explain: Miss once with bow A = ZERO dps.
Miss once with bow B and u get another go before A does.

And sure, the numbers are random, I'm just trying to explain the idea that when you can shoot much faster and more accurately your damage output is higher, since you hit more often, even if not a higher % of your shots fired.

Combine that with added mobility of the shooter, it's a no brainer. He took it from there being 3 effective bows to 2. Now they are cheaper and fire more often, with increased accuracy. He literally did the opposite of what he claimed he was aiming for.

I tried asking Tydeus nicely many months ago to stop. Now all I can say is that his personality or something in his psyche is making him do these things since it cannot be a genuine concern for the good of the game. Hes a nice guy too, we have chatted by text a few times, but he has lost the plot Teeth.

Today, I look like the dick, because of how I express myself. In a few months, you will all feel the same, if Tydeus keeps "balancing".

But if what I write on an internet forum is going to offend Tydeus I have greatly misjudged him.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: JasonPastman on June 05, 2014, 02:37:07 pm
I agree most with the following,

Quote from: Kafein on June 03, 2014, 10:40:01 pm
Low CoF is good because it puts power in the hands of the player, it pushes the skill ceiling higher. CoF is pure RNG and is a bad way of simulating imperfect accuracy. But we can't implement something better.

In my opinion the good way of reducing accuracy is to nerf missile speed, and increase the timing constraint. Right now projectiles fly much too fast, hence very little leading is required. Making arrows slower would punish bad archery and reward good archery. Additionally, a bow can be held fully drawn for much too long without losing significant power and accuracy. Making the time window shorter would introduce an element of timing similar to hold breath mechanics in traditional FPS. That would increase the player skill requirement for using a bow.

It's just that I get head shot and I see other sharing in the same fate way to often (the game feels and the "death feed" (or what ever you call it) looks like CSGO way to often).  Much of the time when I'm head shot, it's while I'm on horseback with 9 riding.

Secondly, I can't chase HA's down without getting dismounted often times before I can hit them once.  Which means if they are targeting me which is often the case on NA1, I've got to spend the round avoiding and generally evading them, which is absolutely no fun, just frustrating really. 

Quote from: Tydeus on June 04, 2014, 03:06:54 am
Most long time players that I talk to think cRPG's current problem is that it's too balanced (understandable).

I've been around since 2010, and I agree the game is very balanced right now (and that balance is a very good thing that can't be over done), especially with this last patch, however I feel that something needs to be done with archery, and I think Kafein's idea is not only the way to go but is also quickly implementable.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Tydeus on June 05, 2014, 03:31:48 pm
Quote from: BlindGuy on June 05, 2014, 01:02:38 pm
(click to show/hide)
You sir, are a prime example of the Dunning-Kruger effect. Please leave the arguing up to the rest of the community.



If you'll notice in my post with the damage calculations, damages range from 2/3 to 1/2 (Red column Longbow, Blue column Horn, Yellow column Nomad). The thing you're not keeping in mind, is that it doesn't take into account distance or player movement. This means you will almost always do less damage (except for headshots) than what this calculator shows. But distance doesn't reduce damage post armor soak/reduce, it factors into the raw. Its at this point, that if you don't immediately go "I see, guess I overlooked something in my argument" you don't deserve to be discussing balance through numbers, as you clearly don't understand how the numbers work.

Furthermore, your argument about PD requirements is a moot point. Sure you can use a nomad bow with only 2 PD but no one does that, because any bow at lower than 4 PD will be complete garbage for damage. Every single point in Power Draw adds just over 15% damage in effect (because of wpf). It doesn't really matter how fast you are, if you consistently hit for a mere 5 damage on the average opponent, and bounce on anyone in plate.

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Keep in mind that 40 armor is closer to the average armor for archers and that the average for melee is about 60, depending on when and where you're playing. Also, I just realized that I hadn't fixed things for when I was testing 0p bodkins, so the cut arrow side is actually using a 12 cut Tatar, rather than a 10 (the 'c' column takes the damage from the pierce column and adds a set amount from there). So in most situations, damages on the cut side will actually be 1-2 points lower (all except the 2pd 70 armor setup, which is about .8 lower).

Again, as I have said in the past, I could see reducing projectile speed by 1 to 2 points on the nomad/tatar/horn, and as I mentioned yesterday in IRC to XyNox, possibly also reduce the difference in rate of fire between bows. New features are out of the question, though.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Algarn on June 05, 2014, 03:38:37 pm
Quote from: Tydeus on June 05, 2014, 03:31:48 pm
Again, as I have said in the past, I could see reducing projectile speed by 1 to 2 points on the nomad/tatar/horn.

In the next patch or december 2010 ?  ;)
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: HarunYahya on June 05, 2014, 03:57:08 pm
Don't nerf archers.
Enough with fucking nerfs.

Nerf melee, nerf cav, nerf ranged, nerf armor wtf is this? It is a damn battle game and at the end all men must die how the fuck we gonna die if you keep nerfing everything ?

Enough with "make archery so fucked up so only skilled archers may do some good" idea.
Look at 2h, give you cat a 2h sword and watch it top the fucking scoreboard.

Deal with it. Seriously fed up with nerfs...
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Gnjus on June 05, 2014, 04:15:59 pm
Quote from: Teeth on June 05, 2014, 01:17:06 pm
Few people manage to present such a flawed argument in such a cocksure manner ^

Few people manage to get their asses muted in such a convincing manner like this Blind Guy.  A few of us here were handed a 100% mutilations back in the day but we could all learn from this guy how to act like complete and utter imbeciles while totally uncalled for. We couldn't even role-play it let alone mean it.



Quote from: Tydeus on June 05, 2014, 03:31:48 pm
You sir, are a prime example of the Dunning-Kruger effect. Please leave the arguing up to the rest of the community.

You're completely in the wrong job there Yank, you should've been a dedicated forum moderator instead of item balancer, I'd dare say you do it much better.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: the real god emperor on June 05, 2014, 04:17:11 pm
Why can't we focus on more important things like Crossbow is being 2 slots and no one is using it except SB_SeeYa ? :D
Or Shashka being removed
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Kafein on June 05, 2014, 05:54:13 pm
The "light bows counter heavy bows" argument is bollocks. Everybody knows the only rule that archers follow when shooting is the one that maximizes the number of kills they get. Why would they shoot other ranged when obviously melee and cav enemies are going to be easier to hit (either closer or larger), distracted and unable to retaliate ? Sure, light bows are better than heavy bows in an archer duel, but battle and siege are anything but ranged duels.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: YnScN on June 05, 2014, 05:57:57 pm
Quote from: Kafein on June 05, 2014, 05:54:13 pm
The "light bows counter heavy bows" argument is bollocks. Everybody knows the only rule that archers follow when shooting is the one that maximizes the number of kills they get. Why would they shoot other ranged when obviously melee and cav enemies are going to be easier to hit (either closer or larger), distracted and unable to retaliate ? Sure, light bows are better than heavy bows in an archer duel, but battle and siege are anything but ranged duels.

Rangers are always easier to hit because they stand still, and light bows have to counter ranged to be useful, I dont want to pray for my luck to headshot an unaware ranged from long range. I want precision.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Kafein on June 05, 2014, 06:07:59 pm
Quote from: YnScN on June 05, 2014, 05:57:57 pm
Rangers are always easier to hit because they stand still, and light bows have to counter ranged to be useful, I dont want to pray for my luck to headshot an unaware ranged from long range. I want precision.

When I melee I don't want my opponents to block my swings either.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Gmnotutoo on June 05, 2014, 06:23:46 pm
Quote from: Kafein on June 05, 2014, 06:07:59 pm
When I melee I don't want my opponents to block my swings either.

Honestly I'd love to see melee combat speed increased.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: YnScN on June 05, 2014, 06:28:21 pm
Quote from: Kafein on June 05, 2014, 06:07:59 pm
When I melee I don't want my opponents to block my swings either.

There is a difference between what i'm saying and what you're saying. I'm saying that i don't want to be based on luck to do what i do best. You're saying that you want your opponent shouldn't do what he needs to counter you.

There were only 2 bows before they made low tier bows useful. By the changes they made room for specialization in archery. You can either take high tier bows and hunt infantry, or low tier bows and hunt archers. And if they remove pin point accuracy from low tier bows, why should i use them to counter ranged? You can say because they are fast, but draw speed is not an issue because if an enemy archer is aware of you having a low tier bow and aiming at him,  he will just dodge until he finds a cover.

Most of my kills come from archers that are not aware of me. I saw them first, aim carefully and i don't give them another chance to reply. I trained on duel servers, with different ranges to precise my aim. That's why i don't want to be based on luck. And with having these i 'm not very useful over enemy infantry as it should be. Sometimes it takes more than 5 body arrows for a guy with kuyak and heavy gauntlets.

To conclude, i think ranged diversity is good and pin point accuracy should stay as it is.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Teeth on June 05, 2014, 09:50:31 pm
Quote from: Gmnotutoo on June 05, 2014, 06:23:46 pm
Honestly I'd love to see melee combat speed increased.
Combat has been sped up significantly over the past year.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Rebelyell on June 05, 2014, 09:56:37 pm
Quote from: Teeth on June 05, 2014, 01:17:06 pm
Few people manage to present such a flawed argument in such a cocksure manner ^
he was muted for" being total twat"
no jokes here that was a reson
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Hoppster on June 06, 2014, 02:26:16 am
Quote from: Rebelyell on June 05, 2014, 09:56:37 pm
he was muted for" being total twat"
no jokes here that was a reson

looks like the truths out at last :D
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Oberyn on June 06, 2014, 06:24:51 am
Quote from: Teeth on June 05, 2014, 12:14:03 pm
For example, I used to play lance cavalry in a very anti infantry focused way. High PS and low movement speed, hanging around the fight, distracting people and dishing out a lot of hits. Very often however, there would be couch cavalry players that completely focus on killing other cavalry and it is incredibly annoying. I am trying to make my team win by using my horse to influence the outcome of group fights the best I can, and these fast cav fucks only focus on getting easy cav kills which makes them the perfect counter to my playstyle.

Heavy cav, heavy armored lancer hunting down inf was just your "playstyle" and "trying to make my team win", but light cav fighting other cav is "easy kills"? Backstabbing and bumping unaware, already engaged infantry is doable by all cav, and frankly it's by far the easiest aspect, whether as heavy or light. You really think light cav trying to take you down were going for "easy kills"? Literaly everything else other than maybe horse ranged is an easier target. Maybe taking your fat, OP elephant riding, inf harassing ass down was about making their team win too, just maybe.
Don't pretend heavy cav was defenseless, or light cav it's"perfect counter", even couches werent enough to kill your horse in 1 hit, whereas most light horses died if you coughed at them. For being a "perfect counter" it's funny how all it takes is one little mistake and bam, no more horse. As opposed to the relentless tide of fails you could afford to bumble into as heavy, and still good to go to trample more peasants. Seriously, this is so fucking backwards.

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Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Kafein on June 06, 2014, 11:44:28 am
Quote from: Oberyn on June 06, 2014, 06:24:51 am
Heavy cav, heavy armored lancer hunting down inf was just your "playstyle" and "trying to make my team win", but light cav fighting other cav is "easy kills"? Backstabbing and bumping unaware, already engaged infantry is doable by all cav, and frankly it's by far the easiest aspect, whether as heavy or light. You really think light cav trying to take you down were going for "easy kills"? Literaly everything else other than maybe horse ranged is an easier target. Maybe taking your fat, OP elephant riding, inf harassing ass down was about making their team win too, just maybe.
Don't pretend heavy cav was defenseless, or light cav it's"perfect counter", even couches werent enough to kill your horse in 1 hit, whereas most light horses died if you coughed at them. For being a "perfect counter" it's funny how all it takes is one little mistake and bam, no more horse. As opposed to the relentless tide of fails you could afford to bumble into as heavy, and still good to go to trample more peasants. Seriously, this is so fucking backwards.

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I believed light cav wasn't even part of the argument anymore. How many arrows do these things even survive these days ? Minus 2 ?
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Algarn on June 06, 2014, 12:10:56 pm
4 shots for the arabian with 6 PD, 5/6 shots for the destrier using bodkins (with almost no bonus speed).
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Mr.K. on June 06, 2014, 12:14:23 pm
Quote from: Algarn on June 06, 2014, 12:10:56 pm
4 shots for the arabian with 6 PD, 5/6 shots for the destrier using bodkins (with almost no bonus speed).

Two if you hit the head, prolly for both of those. +0 Rouncey can be onehit by ranged and it's not much lighter than +3 arabian. Remember bodkins are far worse against cavalry than tatars.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Templar_Steevee on June 06, 2014, 01:45:26 pm
Quote from: Mr.K. on June 06, 2014, 12:14:23 pm
Two if you hit the head, prolly for both of those. +0 Rouncey can be onehit by ranged and it's not much lighter than +3 arabian. Remember bodkins are far worse against cavalry than tatars.
Untill it's heavy cav  :D
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: polkafranzi on June 06, 2014, 02:34:01 pm
STF Minjy using Fins +3 Barbed arrows and a +0 Tatar bow, 6PD, 170wpf (pinpoint accuracy lol)...

Arabian warhorses are consistently going down in 2-4 arrows.

There, nobody needs to fucking speculate anymore.

Just look on eu1 at how many archers there are, there, that's your problem.  Fix it!
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Templar_Steevee on June 06, 2014, 05:06:04 pm
There's only one problem, lots of archers playing at EU1 are quite hi lvl archers, not a STF.

I don't think that there are so many of them, because last month I'm playing mosty on my 2h alt with 15 agi and to play without shield you have to think more, that's it.

Charging archers on open fields is not a good idea, ofc there are maps wher they will dominate, but on lots of maps if you will think you can sneak up behind them and make a happy spam on their faces. I Suggest learn to aim head, to oneshot them, because plendy know how to block and have some ps to hit back with quite good short swords.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Thomek on June 06, 2014, 05:14:07 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on June 06, 2014, 06:24:51 am
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No need for crazy pills..

Cav still OP, just not as OP and game wrecking as it was. Sorry folks, the bump, backstab, 1hit mayhem was not good or fair gameplay.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Kafein on June 06, 2014, 06:28:20 pm
Quote from: Thomek on June 06, 2014, 05:14:07 pm
No need for crazy pills..

Cav still OP, just not as OP and game wrecking as it was. Sorry folks, the bump, backstab, 1hit mayhem was not good or fair gameplay.

The irony of ninjas complaining about something that only requires awareness to be hard countered by any class.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Rebelyell on June 06, 2014, 06:36:42 pm
Quote from: Thomek on June 06, 2014, 05:14:07 pm
No need for crazy pills..

Cav still OP, just not as OP and game wrecking as it was. Sorry folks, the bump, backstab, 1hit mayhem was not good or fair gameplay.
get some armour maybe
and give me your reall phone number
layde from sexshop is nice but cant ban all that abuzers on eu1
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Joseph Porta on June 06, 2014, 06:42:50 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on June 06, 2014, 06:24:51 am
Snip

You and I, we must hug someday, in-game, no homo.

Cant agree more, comparing horses that take 2 hits to die with elephants that take 6 doesn't seem right.

Any heavy cav with brains will block a light horse and just glance him to death with his 1h. Not even taking in account the amount of archers/throwers that just love to shoot light horses, something heavies wont even notice.

Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Gmnotutoo on June 07, 2014, 05:39:17 am
Quote from: Teeth on June 05, 2014, 09:50:31 pm
Combat has been sped up significantly over the past year.

Yes it has, but I'd still like to see it a little faster. Just a personal preference honestly and not something that I'd say is a must need. I like high pace combat sequences because it keeps me engaged and I don't get bored.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: woody on June 09, 2014, 08:05:08 pm
I would instead get rid of zoom function. This was in shooters to mimic a telescopic sight, why its there for medieval bows I find bizarre.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Mr.K. on June 09, 2014, 08:28:43 pm
Quote from: woody on June 09, 2014, 08:05:08 pm
I would instead get rid of zoom function. This was in shooters to mimic a telescopic sight, why its there for medieval bows I find bizarre.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, because I very well might be; In reality you would easily be able to aim (as in see the target) at a human head from 200 meters. Common display at common viewing distance is something like 30-50 degrees field of view. When you set the ingame FoV to 90 degrees that means you "zoom out" by factor of two or three.
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: STR_aD_Sargon_eqv on June 09, 2014, 08:40:46 pm
Quote from: Templar_Steevee on June 03, 2014, 10:33:03 pm
I think pin point accuracy is a problem with tiny bows. Noone should have such good aim .

Getting pin-point accuracy with nomad or tatar bow isn't a problem, but IMO it should be impossible.

Below I posted screenshots while aiming with bows.
Every bow I used is MW, I have 6 PD and 198 wpf in archery (dedicated archer 18/27 lvl 35)
horn bow
(click to show/hide)
rus bow
(click to show/hide)
long bow
(click to show/hide)

As you can see non of those bows have pin point accuracy.
IMO max accuracy should be the one like on horn bow.
X-bows max accuracy is capped so why we shouldn't we have same thing in bows?

Why I'm for removing pin point accuracy?
1. There's no man at earth that can shoot tons of arrows in exactly same point. Body is getting tired and hands are shaking.
2. There are hardly ever perfect weather conditions allowing to make thing from point 1.

Admins can call this accuracy cap "wind factor" os something like that.

i would never thought that i say: "i luv u Steevee",... but i am sayin this  :wink:

i am agree with that great thought, esp now when i'm gettin dismounted by someone who shot my horse from another map side
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Templar_Steevee on June 09, 2014, 10:05:09 pm
Quote from: STR_aD_Sargon_eqv on June 09, 2014, 08:40:46 pm
... esp now when i'm gettin dismounted by someone who shot my horse from another map side...
nothing new for me, doing it since I started playing this game XD
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Ubereem on June 10, 2014, 03:34:24 am
Quote from: Dark_Blade on June 04, 2014, 02:35:56 am
in my opinion the one and only good way to fix the issue is removing the ranged and bows especially
Title: Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
Post by: Templar_Steevee on June 10, 2014, 08:59:41 am
remove your brain, it will help to wield 2h better  :mrgreen:

Without ranged this game will be boring as hell. Renged were always a part of battlefield.