cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: WITCHCRAFT on May 29, 2014, 06:12:09 am

Title: FIX THE CAV RESPEC, GOOD LORD
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on May 29, 2014, 06:12:09 am
Quote
Harald: partial respec for cav: removes 3 str and all riding skill + decreases str-skills when necessary for all chars which have at least 1 riding.

When crossbows increased in str requirement, crossbow users got 3 agility refunded. This was fine because the largest increase in str requirement for any crossbow was 3. You could re-assign your points and continue to use your favorite weapon, even if you had to cut back on the agility part of your build.

With the horse rework, you are refunded 3 str so that you can apply those points to agility since horse requirements increased by up to 3 points.

BUT WAIT A GOD DAMN MINUTE. HORSES DON'T USE AGILITY FOR REQUIREMENT, THEY USE RIDING. SO YOU NEED 9 AGILITY MORE TO USE THE SAME HORSE. IF YOU HAD 15 AGILITY AND 5 RIDING BEFORE, AND USED ANY HORSE FROM A WARHORSE AND UPWARD IT IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR YOU TO USE THIS "PARTIAL RESPEC" AND CONTINUE TO USE YOUR FAVORITE HORSE. YOU'RE FUCKED. SELL YOUR HORSE OR RETIRE OR RESPEC OR QUIT THE GAME, GG NO RM.

I urge the powers that be, please please change the "partial respec." Give back 9 strength to cavalry, so they can continue to use the item they love and built their character around. I haven't played cav in almost a year, I have no personal investment in this change. I just don't want to see players locked out of using their character and items that they have spent months or maybe even years to obtain. This is the kind of thing that makes long-time players quit the game. There is no reason to do this if you are willing to offer a "partial respec" so please make it a valid respec and not a big ol' middle finger to cav.
Title: Re: FIX THE CAV RESPEC, GOOD LORD
Post by: Thranduil on May 29, 2014, 07:34:41 am
I have to agree and I don't usually play cav. Hell, I'm usually ticked off by most cav (typically the couch potatoes and the heavy tramplers), though once a year I'll respec my STF char for a few days of being able to get around with a heavy lance. I was happy to see a cav nerf to be honest, but not to all the cav and certainly not to the extent it has been executed. I still feel that 7 difficulty is the most any horse should require, but even then, the partial respec wouldn't help cav players because of just how much the difficulty requirement has gone up.

I would ask that devs rethink what the difficulty requirements should be with 7 being the max difficulty. And also to give cav players a respec that would actually allow them to use their horses, so give them back 6 STR.


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Title: Re: FIX THE CAV RESPEC, GOOD LORD
Post by: Grumbs on May 29, 2014, 10:21:26 am
Seems the guys that don't abuse OP stuff will never get a free respec. If you get 9 str refunded you can change a lot with your character for free while people that don't abuse OP stuff get nothing once again like with the minor xbow change
Title: Re: FIX THE CAV RESPEC, GOOD LORD
Post by: Macropus on May 29, 2014, 11:02:16 am
People seem to overestimate the damage caused to their builds. It's not really like your build got "destroyed", it's more like you are forced to use lighter horses. Which, of course, could mean one of your looms became useless for you, but hey, didn't that happen before when some items got nerfed heavily? Remember the Danish Greatsword? Did 2h ask for a full respec or get loom refund back then? No.
If you had 5 riding pre-patch, you can now use Barbed warhorse and Padded warhorse which are pretty decent.
Title: Re: FIX THE CAV RESPEC, GOOD LORD
Post by: Gravoth_iii on May 29, 2014, 11:06:08 am
Try the lighter horses, they are really strong too. Destrier is 6 riding now, if you had 5 you could use those 3 str points to get a 6th riding point. Padded warhorse looks like the best horse anyways  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: FIX THE CAV RESPEC, GOOD LORD
Post by: Macropus on May 29, 2014, 11:15:26 am
Really, Macropus? It's all about that I build my 1h cav build lvl 32 around heavy horses, especially War horse now. I need a full respec to make that char playable again, nothing else. Nobody will trade any lighter horse for my war horse, and also I don't want to play light cav, I want to play heavy cav, that's the sole purpose of that very char.
You can't build your character around heavy horses because there's no direct link between a build and a horse to use, just your preferences. Yes, you are forced to change your equipment, but my point is that it's not new to this mod and happened many times before for the sake of balance.
Archers didn't want to fight in melee, they wanted to shoot, that was the sole purpose of their chars. Yet quiver weight increased and they were forced to, which changed their playstyle but hey, that's balancing.

The motive for this patch was that you didn't need much dedication to play cav, just invest 5 points and you're able to use the most heavy horses without really sacrificing much infantry playstyle. Almost all cav players were just an infantry builds + riding added. Now there will actually be a term "dedicated cavalry build".
Title: Re: FIX THE CAV RESPEC, GOOD LORD
Post by: Macropus on May 29, 2014, 11:24:31 am
Well, my build was a dedicated cavalry build with maxed out riding and NO athletics, so your whole point is invalid for me. They made my dedicated cav build useless.
They made your horse useless.*

Which is still sad, but not as terrible as you seem to think.
Title: Re: FIX THE CAV RESPEC, GOOD LORD
Post by: NJ_Legion_Icedtea on May 29, 2014, 11:27:59 am
Agree with this. I was fortunate to be using a Destrier before. However I do feel sorry for those who could not put in their required amount of riding for their horse
Title: Re: FIX THE CAV RESPEC, GOOD LORD
Post by: Macropus on May 29, 2014, 11:29:26 am
Nope. They made my build useless, not my horse. Or maybe both. I don't even care anymore. I guess I will have to use that shitty partial respec to make my char being able to use war horse and then never play that char again.  :|
Still I don't get how was your build made useless. You still can use medium-armoured horses with your build, don't you? How is that "made useless"?
Title: Re: FIX THE CAV RESPEC, GOOD LORD
Post by: Macropus on May 29, 2014, 11:38:30 am
Now I can't play that build anymore - "they made my build useless".
But you do realize these are not the same thing?
You can't play the build you planned to play with the horse you planned to use - yes.
It made your build useless - well, no it didn't.
Title: Re: FIX THE CAV RESPEC, GOOD LORD
Post by: Switchtense on May 29, 2014, 11:44:13 am
GG partial respec fucking up cav builds

(Serious, cause cav = meh)
Title: Re: FIX THE CAV RESPEC, GOOD LORD
Post by: Kafein on May 29, 2014, 11:49:14 am
Seems the guys that don't abuse OP stuff will never get a free respec. If you get 9 str refunded you can change a lot with your character for free while people that don't abuse OP stuff get nothing once again like with the minor xbow change

what the fuck grumbs
Title: Re: FIX THE CAV RESPEC, GOOD LORD
Post by: Sparvico on May 29, 2014, 12:11:52 pm
I can count on one hand the number of melee cav I know that have builds with 8 riding and are not above level 32. I cannot count how many HA and HX naturally have really high agi and riding. Seems to me they've made HA even more enticing. I mean agi cav with a heavy horse is fun and all, until you get shot once, or grazed by literally any weapon in the game and die while your horse has full health. Agi ranged cav with a heavy horse on the other hand  :?

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Title: Re: FIX THE CAV RESPEC, GOOD LORD
Post by: Grumbs on May 29, 2014, 12:18:07 pm
what the fuck grumbs

OP suggests to give back 9 STR alongside refunding all riding skill like is already given + you will have all those skill points refunded from any skill over your str limit. Thats a pretty hefty respec. You don't even need to put any points back into cav if you feel like trying something else. Meanwhile people that don't use OP stuff get no respec whatsoever
Title: Re: FIX THE CAV RESPEC, GOOD LORD
Post by: Sparvico on May 29, 2014, 12:25:16 pm
OP suggests to give back 9 STR alongside refunding all riding skill like is already given + you will have all those skill points refunded from any skill over your str limit. Thats a pretty hefty respec. You don't even need to put any points back into cav if you feel like trying something else. Meanwhile people that don't use OP stuff get no respec whatsoever

Horses are not over powered (annoying as shit yes, but not terribly difficult to kill for anyone with half a brain), unless you were using OP to refer to over played, which is the only actual thing anyone balances around in this mod.
Title: Re: FIX THE CAV RESPEC, GOOD LORD
Post by: LordRichrich on May 29, 2014, 01:29:32 pm
Just waiting for when they increase armour str req so people with the 15/24 so they can use their heavy cav won't be able to use armours that look the right weight xD
Title: Re: FIX THE CAV RESPEC, GOOD LORD
Post by: Macropus on May 29, 2014, 02:17:48 pm
Just waiting for when they increase armour str req so people with the 15/24 so they can use their heavy cav won't be able to use armours that look the right weight xD
There's a difference though.
Raising horses difficulty makes sense because they were OP.
Raising armour difficulty doesn't make sense because it's not OP.
Simple as that.
Title: Re: FIX THE CAV RESPEC, GOOD LORD
Post by: Nightmare798 on May 29, 2014, 02:52:55 pm
Well, my build was a dedicated cavalry build with maxed out riding and NO athletics, so your whole point is invalid for me. They made my dedicated cav build useless.

If you maxed out your riding skill then you should be able to ride whatever the hell you want anyway, right?
Title: Re: FIX THE CAV RESPEC, GOOD LORD
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on May 29, 2014, 05:34:31 pm
People seem to overestimate the damage caused to their builds. It's not really like your build got "destroyed", it's more like you are forced to use lighter horses. Which, of course, could mean one of your looms became useless for you, but hey, didn't that happen before when some items got nerfed heavily? Remember the Danish Greatsword? Did 2h ask for a full respec or get loom refund back then? No.
If you had 5 riding pre-patch, you can now use Barbed warhorse and Padded warhorse which are pretty decent.

Even if the Danish was heavily nerfed, you could still equip the item to your character. Players with ANY mail/plate armored horse cannot use the item they were using before. In fact, they can't use ANY armored horse. If your character is level 32+ and you built it to be heavy cavalry with 15 agi, you cannot be heavy cav anymore. You have to retire or use a full respec. Not just "your item was nerfed." Not just "use a different item of the same type." The respec will let you get 6 riding for light-medium horses, but you cannot play heavy cavalry on your character that was built to play heavy cav.

If my level 34 polearm character was locked out of using the weapons that I built the character for the express purpose of using, I would be pissed. If 1/3 of polearms became impossible to use without a full respec or retiring, I would want to quit.
Title: Re: FIX THE CAV RESPEC, GOOD LORD
Post by: Rico on May 29, 2014, 05:37:10 pm
what the fuck grumbs

He has a point. When you compare the current state of the mod to several years ago, it's obvious that back then, pretty much everything used to be stronger than it is now. Roflcoptering pikes, 34p Espada, Arbalests with 15 STR, pierce damage on all arrow types, stun from ranged damage, stronger knockdown, the old heavy cav stats, Looney Tunes Axe, Awlpike Hiltslash abuse, the old Danish... In summary, in the long run, it is more likely that the tears of this community lead to nerfs than anything getting buffed.

Picking OP classes gives you flexibility due to the new idea of partial respecs. Luckily, these are partial and not full respecs, and not in the sense of "a part of the community gets it", but "a part of the build can be modified". So after an OP class became normal, you cannot switch to the next OP class, but you have to stick with what you got to a certain extend. In consequence, there is no migration from master race to master race without exp loss or training lessons, at least, and people are forced to play what they like, instead of playing the strongest of the current meta.
Title: Re: FIX THE CAV RESPEC, GOOD LORD
Post by: Nightmare798 on May 29, 2014, 07:21:04 pm
No, why?

You know, when you max out a skill, it does NOT matter whenever they raise skill requirement for an item that needs the very skill you maxed out...
Title: Re: FIX THE CAV RESPEC, GOOD LORD
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on May 29, 2014, 07:30:09 pm
Hey I'm not gonna bother to read this whole thread because I get the point and anyone arguing against my man WC is just wrong and needs to shut up.

Fix the cav respec.
Title: Re: FIX THE CAV RESPEC, GOOD LORD
Post by: Nightmare798 on May 29, 2014, 07:33:18 pm
Of course it does. Maxed out means as much as your attribute level (i.e strenght or agility) allows you to put in the skill.
I had 18 agi with 6 riding, and they raised the requirement for my horse to 7 riding.  :wink:

Maxing out means you have raised the level of the skill to the maximum of what the game allows. You did not max it out. You merely raised it to a point that suited you at that time...

Besides, stuff changes. L2adapt or be victim of the change...
Title: Re: FIX THE CAV RESPEC, GOOD LORD
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on May 29, 2014, 08:32:10 pm
Yeah, you can do great with 6 riding and medium tier horses. The thing is, if you were heavy cavalry before with 15 agility, you can't be heavy cav unless you respec or retire. If your heavy cavalry character was high level and the only reason you spent all that time levelling them up was to play your dream heavy cav build, you're 100% fucked. That's not cool.
Title: Re: FIX THE CAV RESPEC, GOOD LORD
Post by: Nightmare798 on May 30, 2014, 11:39:09 am
Well, we got a different definition of what "maxed out" means obviously.
I already adapted to the change, but there are cav players who can't adapt, because they would need to full respec to do so. For me the partial respec worked, although I am now playing a build I didn't plan. But it's ok too. Played two rounds, had 9:2 and 50ish points, so thats enough for me.

Good, glad it worked out.

Dont get me wrong it is not hate or anything, but Imagine my disdain after I triple loomed my long espada and it got nerfed to the ground. My first three looms were wasted completely in one patch, and I wont ever get my looms back.

The thing is the game changes, and you gotta either roll with it, or be trampled underneath the others.
Title: Re: FIX THE CAV RESPEC, GOOD LORD
Post by: Simon_Templar on June 01, 2014, 06:48:15 pm
It worked out. pffff this community is now not so big as we can have satch a bullshit all the time. when you nerf something now give always a full respec. and of discussion here.  :P
Title: Re: FIX THE CAV RESPEC, GOOD LORD
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on June 01, 2014, 07:42:58 pm
Good, glad it worked out.

Dont get me wrong it is not hate or anything, but Imagine my disdain after I triple loomed my long espada and it got nerfed to the ground. My first three looms were wasted completely in one patch, and I wont ever get my looms back.

The thing is the game changes, and you gotta either roll with it, or be trampled underneath the others.

When the long espada was nerfed, you could still equip it. Imagine if you could not equip the long espada or any of the high tier swords, and your character would lose more than 100m experience from respec or retire. That's more than 10 gens' worth. You can trade the horse away, but you can't use any armored horse on that character so you can't be heavy cav on your long-term heavy cav character.
Title: Re: FIX THE CAV RESPEC, GOOD LORD
Post by: ZEE_BISHOP on June 01, 2014, 09:55:48 pm
The community isn't huge, people put a lot of "work" into their characters - you cannot change an entire class of players so dramatically and only allow a partial respec....
Title: Re: FIX THE CAV RESPEC, GOOD LORD
Post by: Gawin on June 01, 2014, 10:43:03 pm
Yes please http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/new-cav-patch/
Title: Re: FIX THE CAV RESPEC, GOOD LORD
Post by: Rico on June 02, 2014, 03:22:20 am
Could we just have a free global respec thanks
Title: Re: FIX THE CAV RESPEC, GOOD LORD
Post by: Nightmare798 on June 02, 2014, 01:54:48 pm
When the long espada was nerfed, you could still equip it. Imagine if you could not equip the long espada or any of the high tier swords, and your character would lose more than 100m experience from respec or retire. That's more than 10 gens' worth. You can trade the horse away, but you can't use any armored horse on that character so you can't be heavy cav on your long-term heavy cav character.

As far as I know there are still armored horses on 6 riding. And honestly, this game and the rpg system is centered around retiring. When you push that 34lvl character to the next level, you should think about that something like that could happen in the future.

That said, I understand that you people are angry because you can no longer use your fav piece of equipment.
Title: Re: FIX THE CAV RESPEC, GOOD LORD
Post by: Kafein on June 02, 2014, 04:05:44 pm
Meanwhile people that don't use OP stuff get no respec whatsoever

what the fuck grumbs
Title: Re: FIX THE CAV RESPEC, GOOD LORD
Post by: Sniger on June 02, 2014, 06:11:08 pm
i hate cav (but i do acknowledge them, the game is called MOUNT & blade) and throwing is just a thing recently, will always be a shielder no matter how much its "buffed", but i also agree with OP. respec would seem fair when big change patch like this, as mentioned, people have invested time not only into the character but many also into upgrading horse and other gear using loompoints.
yeah its a huge middle finger. or two fingers, take a pick. personally i prefer the two fingers  :lol:  :P

the amount of players on servers in primetime doesnt lie
Title: Re: FIX THE CAV RESPEC, GOOD LORD
Post by: MURDERTRON on June 02, 2014, 07:33:52 pm
It is off that the devs had more sympathy for the WPF change and subsequent respec than this change.  And while I agree that heavy cav str builds had to go, they are certainly not worse than the 45-3 builds of last year.