cRPG

Off Topic => General Off Topic => Topic started by: Tomas_Miles_again on May 20, 2014, 11:06:50 pm

Title: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: Tomas_Miles_again on May 20, 2014, 11:06:50 pm
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Got an interesting fact: We've never had a bad Green Party Government.
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Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: Kafein on May 20, 2014, 11:16:54 pm
Where's the money?


Also, "green" party proposing to "end fuel poverty" what?
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: Oberyn on May 20, 2014, 11:23:09 pm
My biggest beef with the Greens in almost every (every, even? I don't know every single Green euro party's stances) euro country is their stance on nuclear power. It is portrayed as even more horrifying and destructive than coal or oil or gas by relying on fearmongering and propaganda, and I completely disagree. You should see the stuff that has been appearing on the net since Fukushima happened, so much blatant misinformation. And this isn't new, this fear and disgust of nuclear power. Fact is all the so-called sustainable forms of energy are nothing more than pipedreams atm. They are not realistic replacements. I see nuclear as, at worst, the only possible stopgap solution, something to rely on while making the transition between overreliance on fossil fuels and simultaneously pouring funding into scientific solutions that may one day be viable. I really doubt their "increased science funding" encompasses nuclear for example, despite the giant strides that have been made since it's discovery, and that it is an actual alternative that can only get more efficient and attractive with further breakthroughs.
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: Chosen1 on May 20, 2014, 11:51:34 pm
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Green Party? Sounds more like the Communist party to me.
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: Osiris on May 20, 2014, 11:54:00 pm
Nationalise everything because the govt runs everything efficiently!  :|



*hope labour never nationalise anything. they ruined our economy and are nearly bankrupt as a party :D
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: Tomas_Miles_again on May 21, 2014, 12:11:29 am
I have to say I do disagree with their stance on nuclear power, but I think most of their policies are healthier for our country on the whole. I would rather have our infrastructure under the responsibility of government than businesses that operate for profit.
Afaik the Greens also prioritise military funding pretty low and would probably push for nuclear disarmament, something that all nations should do imo.
And universal living wage. Surely the investment would actually be worth it?

http://policy.greenparty.org.uk/ed.html
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: Oberyn on May 21, 2014, 12:21:20 am

Afaik the Greens also prioritise military funding pretty low and would probably push for nuclear disarmament, something that all nations should do imo.


Yes, it makes sense if it's something done worldwide, and good luck with that. Doing so without that guarantee is extremely foolish and naive.
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: LordBerenger on May 21, 2014, 09:20:41 am
I have to say I do disagree with their stance on nuclear power, but I think most of their policies are healthier for our country on the whole. I would rather have our infrastructure under the responsibility of government than businesses that operate for profit.
Afaik the Greens also prioritise military funding pretty low and would probably push for nuclear disarmament, something that all nations should do imo.
And universal living wage. Surely the investment would actually be worth it?

http://policy.greenparty.org.uk/ed.html

And then best Korea is only nation in the world with nukes and rules the world. GG well played.


Also i always get the feeling that if a Green party would rule a country the hipsters would have an orgasm.
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: Molly on May 21, 2014, 09:34:00 am
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I really have to wonder how you come to the conclusion that there isn't a viable alternative while blaming misinformation and propaganda on others :lol:
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: Teeth on May 21, 2014, 11:04:52 am
7 policies that cost a lot of money, where is the money gonna come from?
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: FleetFox on May 21, 2014, 12:05:20 pm
Nice thread Tomas, the Greens are having a major surge in popularity, I need to become a member actually. Of course you wont hear much of this surge because our press focus on UKIP.

Nationalise everything because the govt runs everything efficiently!  :|



*hope labour never nationalise anything. they ruined our economy and are nearly bankrupt as a party :D

Oh you mean like the effiency of the private sector? Come on as if... Just look at your privatised rail service always being late.

The Green Party would be the best option for our country, we just need to convince people that it is. As to the nuclear power discussion, the sheer cost of building the damned nuclear power plants, then dismantling them safely, finding a place for the waste is something you really need to think about. Yes France has most of its power from Nuclear and it may be used for a transition source, but the problem is that al of money goes into the Nuclear Industry which would be much better spend on those new technologies that are ready ,wind  and solar for example. Hydrogen is our best bet for a really "clean" source. Nuclear may well be deemed carbon free but its not. It takes a lot of fossil fuels to mine the Uranium Ore and transport that from Australia for example. I could go into a lot of detail but I dont have the time.

After Fukishima, the safefty of these nuclear plants are certainly under question.

7 policies that cost a lot of money, where is the money gonna come from?


lol thats the easy part, we have a sea of ultra rich who dodge tax. We just need to totally shut all these loop holes which involve tax havens and the like and then set a wealth tax similar to what Thomas Pikkety has suggested. There is plenty of money its just needs to be spent more smartly and in the interests of everyone not just the elite...

P.s Im voting Green!
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: Nightmare798 on May 21, 2014, 12:11:26 pm
And then best Korea is only nation in the world with nukes and rules the world. GG well played.


Their military is a fucking joke tho. They still use outdated AK-47s and RPG-7s.
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: FleetFox on May 21, 2014, 12:14:58 pm
And then best Korea is only nation in the world with nukes and rules the world. GG well played.


Also i always get the feeling that if a Green party would rule a country the hipsters would have an orgasm.

These comments can't be serious surely? If they are then you got a real problem there buddy. The North Korean threat is completely over stated, America has them easily covered, don't you worry about a thing. If there are people to be concerned its the South Korean people but again no nukes would make it before being shot down.
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: LordBerenger on May 21, 2014, 12:32:55 pm
Don't underestimate Kim Jong Un. He's the future of planet Earth.

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North Korea Best Korea
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on May 21, 2014, 01:27:40 pm
In Australia the greens party get all of their policies costed by external economics organisations and actually finds ways to pay for it in the budget. From reading this thread it leads me to believe that the UK greens just rant like crazy people... Is that the case?
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: [ptx] on May 21, 2014, 01:35:18 pm
After Fukishima, the safefty of these nuclear plants are certainly under question.
Yes, i certainly wouldn't want any more nuclear plants in EU, what with all the 7+ magnitude earthquakes and tsunamis that we get.
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: Overdriven on May 21, 2014, 02:21:34 pm


Got an interesting fact: We've never had a bad Green Party Government.
(click to show/hide)

Except the Green party have been heavily criticised over their handling of things in Brighton. I certainly wouldn't want to see them ever become a real contender until they can straighten up their actions there.

It seems to me they spend far to long fighting each other over every little thing without ever implementing anything remotely useful.

(I live in Brighton btw).

From reading this thread it leads me to believe that the UK greens just rant like crazy people... Is that the case?

Pretty much. That and protesting about anything there is to protest about. But then that's just general Brighton/Sussex mentality.

Edit:

In regards to Nuclear power, I have firmly believed for a long time that is the best option for satisfying our power needs at the moment. Wind and solar simply wouldn't produce enough and aren't really that cost effective, and other energy sources aren't developed enough to consider them a viable option to meet an immediate need for energy. For somewhere like the UK, that doesn't generally have extreme weather events or any real tectonic activity, Nuclear really is the most viable course. I simply can't stand the propaganda fear mongering crap that comes from parties like the Green party.

Not to mention they are pretty much against any viable energy source other than wind and solar energy.

Anyway, part of the reason the Green party got in in Brighton was due to the 2 Universities there. 2 Universities worth of students overwhelmingly voting for the Green party at the time in a relatively small city. I seriously doubt they'd get in to many other constituencies as Sussex Uni (where I studied) and Brighton Uni are both very hippy, left wing Universities to suit the general mood in Brighton. A huge portion of the students at Sussex voted Green just because its what you do when your in your hippy student years there, any other's voted Lib Dem (look how that worked out) and the others with their heads screwed on voted for the two parties who we are unfortunately stuck with as the only viable options of running the country at any form of 'effectiveness' even in a limited capacity.

For the Green party or even UKIP to gain power would be a disaster. They simply wouldn't have the structure of capability to cope.
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: jtobiasm on May 21, 2014, 02:40:32 pm
Dunno if anyone has seen this yet but one thing I do agree on is banning the burka.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgLZSZqEZF8

I think pretty much everyone in my area is going UKIP or BNP.
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on May 21, 2014, 02:46:27 pm
Yes, i certainly wouldn't want any more nuclear plants in EU, what with all the 7+ magnitude earthquakes and tsunamis that we get.

I believe he is talking about the Tridents not the handful of power plates. The UK does spend billions on it's nukes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_the_United_Kingdom

"The current Trident system cost £12.6bn (at 1996 prices) and costs £280m a year to maintain. Options for replacing Trident range from £5bn for the missiles alone to £20-30bn for missiles, submarines and research facilities. At minimum, for the system to continue after around 2020, the missiles will need to be replaced.[89]"

Take a look at this https://bze.org.au/

It's Australian spesific but it's doable pretty much everywhere. I used to work for these guys. Pretty impressive stuff.

If we rolled out CST just to power Victoria that would reduces it's cost per kilowatt hour to the same as brown coal. What you have to realise about that is this. Australia pays almost nothing for Brown Coal because we produce something like half the worlds supply. Queensland (where I live) produces 25% of the worlds coking coal... Pretty crazy. When QLD flooded it drove the price up massively.

Another random fact the area flooded during the 2011 floods that shut the mines and ports down was the same size as... Germany and France combined, that was just the flooded area and that was about 50% of the state. We are a big fucking country.
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: [ptx] on May 21, 2014, 02:51:52 pm
See what i quoted.
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on May 21, 2014, 02:55:29 pm
See what i quoted.

I actually thought you were responding to HESKEYTIME, sorry.

Last time I checked Britian topped out at 8.3 for max potential Earth Quake (I used to study geology at UNI, 2 years of a degree before I gave up). Still, Britians power through neuclear isn't a huge issue.

What I think is interesting is the potential for Spain to become Western Europe's power plant.
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: Kuujis on May 21, 2014, 02:58:24 pm
I believe he is talking about the Tridents not the handful of power plates. The UK does spend billions on it's nukes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_the_United_Kingdom

"The current Trident system cost £12.6bn (at 1996 prices) and costs £280m a year to maintain. Options for replacing Trident range from £5bn for the missiles alone to £20-30bn for missiles, submarines and research facilities. At minimum, for the system to continue after around 2020, the missiles will need to be replaced.[89]"

Take a look at this https://bze.org.au/

It's Australian spesific but it's doable pretty much everywhere. I used to work for these guys. Pretty impressive stuff.

If we rolled out CST just to power Victoria that would reduces it's cost per kilowatt hour to the same as brown coal. What you have to realise about that is this. Australia pays almost nothing for Brown Coal because we produce something like half the worlds supply. Queensland (where I live) produces 25% of the worlds coking coal... Pretty crazy. When QLD flooded it drove the price up massively.

Another random fact the area flooded during the 2011 floods that shut the mines and ports down was the same size as... Germany and France combined, that was just the flooded area and that was about 50% of the state. We are a big fucking country.
YEAH! Getting rid of nukes is cool and cheap! And look around - there are countries who had nukes, got rid of them, received security guarantees and didn't suffer much for that... well... <cough> loosing parts of their territory </cough>... erm... right...  that got bongled up somehow. Shaite.
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on May 21, 2014, 02:59:11 pm
The UK won't be anexed by Russia any time soon. That reference is straw manning bullshit.
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: Kuujis on May 21, 2014, 03:02:21 pm
The UK won't be anexed by Russia any time soon. That reference is straw manning bullshit.
YEAH! So glad. Much happy!  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: Leshma on May 21, 2014, 03:02:32 pm
Dunno if anyone has seen this yet but one thing I do agree on is banning the burka.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgLZSZqEZF8

I think pretty much everyone in my area is going UKIP or BNP.

If he was British, Panos would definitely vote for BNP.
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on May 21, 2014, 03:03:21 pm
If he was British, Panos would definitely vote for BNP.

Panos would be a candidate.
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: Kafein on May 21, 2014, 03:44:28 pm
I really have to wonder how you come to the conclusion that there isn't a viable alternative while blaming misinformation and propaganda on others :lol:

For the time being, there is no better alternative. Nuclear is space-efficient, GHG-free, safe, cheap and we are only using one of the oldest technologies right now. Fourth generation nuclear plants will be awesome.
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: SirCymro_Crusader on May 21, 2014, 03:48:08 pm
.
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: FleetFox on May 21, 2014, 04:08:11 pm
Yes, i certainly wouldn't want any more nuclear plants in EU, what with all the 7+ magnitude earthquakes and tsunamis that we get.

Haha yeah, but we do get a lot of flooding and any coastal areas are not completely safe.

Anyway for all you Nuclear power lovers check this out

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sellafield (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sellafield)

It says here that this one site has cost the UK £70 billion, and because I know someone who works on it, I have been told it is way behind its target of decommissioning and will cost many more billions. What a great legacy to have, I'll look forward to more of that in 40 years time when all your nuclear power plants need upgrading/ replacing...
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: Overdriven on May 21, 2014, 04:24:25 pm
'Commission date   1956'

'Sellafield's biggest decommissioning challenges relate to the leftovers of the early nuclear research and nuclear weapons programmes.'

Things have come a long way since then.

Full the full note on the decommissioning problems:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: Molly on May 21, 2014, 04:24:37 pm
For the time being, there is no better alternative. Nuclear is space-efficient, GHG-free, safe, cheap and we are only using one of the oldest technologies right now. Fourth generation nuclear plants will be awesome.
That's is probably one of the most common misconceptions there are: Nuclear power is NOT cheap.

Well, if you leave out waste disposal and dismantling the plants after their use, it comes equal to coal or something (don't have the exact numbers ready and I am too lazy to look them up).
German energy providers are right now trying to sell of their old plants, which were shut down, to the state with some obvious stupid fond-ruse. If they have to pay dismantling and waste disposal by themselves, they gonna be broke within a few years just by those costs. Nuclear power is only cheap when the plant is running.
Funny fact, when you get numbers for the energy costs by "way of generation", waste disposal is always calculated into the price for every single one of them except Nuclear. One should wonder why.

I am not saying that every Nuclear plant should be shut down right now. That's Green people bullshit but saying Nuclear energy is clean and cheap is just the same bullshit on the other side of the scale.

Not to mention big consortium of enterprises being sabotaged by state interests when they actually try to build big alternative stuff (looking at you, France). Lame excuses, some are hilarious even, by politicians why certain deals for really clean energy from other countries are not made (Norway and Germany have one incident which is pathetic and ridiculous at the same time).
There is hardly another topic I've seen more bullshit being spread through official channels than "Energy generation". Maybe cuz I am an electric engineer and happen to know that stuff... So many blatant lies going round, it ain't even funny.

/rant
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: Overdriven on May 21, 2014, 04:27:06 pm
I wouldn't argue it is either clean or cheap. I'd simply argue that it is the most viable route for solving short term energy problems until a more viable solution has been researched and can be implemented. That is purely in terms of meeting supply demands for current growing energy consumption.
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: Leshma on May 21, 2014, 04:41:36 pm
Growing energy consumption? Seems to me that home appliances are designed to use less power than before. Regular people at their homes don't use more energy. Unless you take population increase in that equation, but areas where population is raising rapidly are rural and undeveloped areas.

If there really is need for more energy, we can thank industry for that. With different social organization there would be no need for nuclear power. Actually our needs for energy will decrease in that case.

Wind and solar energy is still horribly ineffective and thus expensive for industrial use but it could prove useful for households, again, if we change current social structure a bit. I personally don't need billboards and shiny lights everywhere, actually don't need them at all. My ideal world doesn't contain something we call marketing.

So yeah, we greens are kinda like communists. But not in soviet communism sense.
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: Molly on May 21, 2014, 04:58:59 pm
I wouldn't argue it is either clean or cheap. I'd simply argue that it is the most viable route for solving short term energy problems until a more viable solution has been researched and can be implemented. That is purely in terms of meeting supply demands for current growing energy consumption.
I don't really know for other countries but Germany shut down like 8 plants after Fukishima and is still selling something between 30% and 40% of their energy production to Austria, France and other states.
And considering that it takes up to 10 years to plan a plant, get the paperworks for it and actually build it and make it run, you can hardly argue with short term stuff. Not to mention that Nuclear power isn't flexible. It takes days to shut down or power up a reactor, so it's nothing you use for anything else but basic power supply. The consumption overall isn't a flat line though. You get peaks in the morning for example when everyone is getting up and turning on their coffee machines. Those peaks are buffered by coal or gas plants, they can be fired up in minutes... Well, already off topic that, I guess :wink:

Growing energy consumption? Seems to me that home appliances are designed to use less power than before. Regular people at their homes don't use more energy. Unless you take population increase in that equation, but areas where population is raising rapidly are rural and undeveloped areas.

If there really is need for more energy, we can thank industry for that. With different social organization there would be no need for nuclear power. Actually our needs for energy will decrease in that case.

Wind and solar energy is still horribly ineffective and thus expensive for industrial use but it could prove useful for households, again, if we change current social structure a bit. I personally don't need billboards and shiny lights everywhere, actually don't need them at all. My ideal world doesn't contain something we call marketing.

So yeah, we greens are kinda like communists. But not in soviet communism sense.
Light pollution comes to mind here.
There are actually light safe zones all over Europe where you're not allowed to build any more lights :D
I know the UK/Scotland/Ireland has like 3 or 4 them, Germany 3 I think... Background lighting is actually becoming a serious problem.
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: Overdriven on May 21, 2014, 05:05:42 pm
I don't really know for other countries but Germany shut down like 8 plants after Fukishima and is still selling something between 30% and 40% of their energy production to Austria, France and other states.
And considering that it takes up to 10 years to plan a plant, get the paperworks for it and actually build it and make it run, you can hardly argue with short term stuff. Not to mention that Nuclear power isn't flexible. It takes days to shut down or power up a reactor, so it's nothing you use for anything else but basic power supply. The consumption overall isn't a flat line though. You get peaks in the morning for example when everyone is getting up and turning on their coffee machines. Those peaks are buffered by coal or gas plants, they can be fired up in minutes... Well, already off topic that, I guess :wink:

Well 10 years is relatively short term in terms of energy production. I seriously doubt we will have any major leaps in clean, efficient and cheap energy production so something has to replace conventional fossil fuels as becoming more reliant on imports isn't exactly desirable.

Anyway you are right, off topic I suppose  :P
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: Leshma on May 21, 2014, 05:14:50 pm
There is cheap and there is cheap. Nuclear waste is horribly expensive in both ways. Because it is very dangerous. Whatever you do with it, you're creating pollution somewhere (unless you send it to the Sun). Solar and wind energy are expensive because it is novelty and isn't supported by major industry players. But it is much cheaper if you take out capitalism out of equation.

There are ways how to improve efficiency of both wind and solar energy. Don't build turbines and solar panels on the ground, build them higher in the atmosphere. Of course that could create a lot of issues. Because on the ground there is already a lot of objects and it's not possible to build too many turbines (but it's perfectly possible to place solar panels on the roof of every building). But in the air there is barely any obstacle and I fear if that becomes "a new way" people will build so many of those and pollute air above us...
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: Molly on May 21, 2014, 05:25:34 pm
Well 10 years is relatively short term in terms of energy production. I seriously doubt we will have any major leaps in clean, efficient and cheap energy production so something has to replace conventional fossil fuels as becoming more reliant on imports isn't exactly desirable.

Anyway you are right, off topic I suppose  :P
Last post, I swear :D

Clean and renewable energy is viable from the pure technical point of view. There are so many more concepts beside the windmill and the photovoltaic everyone knows..

Lemme tell you a little story about my country, Germany in case you don't already know...

There was this crazy offer from Norway once. They approached the German chancellor(ette) and some Minister of Industry/Economics/whatever it's called and said "Listen, we have so much water running trough our country, energy is so cheap for us, we can even heat our pedestrian walks in the winter to keep them free from snow and ice. We wanna make you an offer which could be awesome for both our nations. We build more water plants, like a bunch of them, and get people working there. Then we produce so much energy, we sell it to you for as good as nothing. You'll get clean and really cheap energy and we get some money and places for people to work at. And since we need to transport that energy, we would even put the cable into the sea for cheap, hell, we'll do it for free! What do you say?"
Some time went by, analyst made calculations claiming that deal could save the average energy consumer in Germany costs up to 45%! They were excited and full of joy. "We can have really cheap energy and clean on top! How awesome!"
Above mentioned Minister said nothing. Chancellor(ette) said nothing.
One day the crazy Norwegians came by again and asked "So? Did come to a decision about that energy thing we suggested?"
The proud and fine Minister took a deep breath and answered "Yea... well... you know... that cable in the sea... yea, no can do... it has a different specification than we need it according to our rulebook. No, sorry, not interested. Have a good day!"

It really happened like that. The "No" from our fine Minister had been made official like 2 - 3 years afterwards.
One of the main reasons it didn't go through was some "expert" of the ministry who said that the cable can't be connected to the plugs (simplified) we have at the shore. After the elections the Minister was replaced by someone else and that expert went working for Vattenfall. :lol:

Keeps pissing me off whenever I think about that shit.
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: Kafein on May 21, 2014, 05:36:32 pm
That's is probably one of the most common misconceptions there are: Nuclear power is NOT cheap.

Well, if you leave out waste disposal and dismantling the plants after their use, it comes equal to coal or something (don't have the exact numbers ready and I am too lazy to look them up).
German energy providers are right now trying to sell of their old plants, which were shut down, to the state with some obvious stupid fond-ruse. If they have to pay dismantling and waste disposal by themselves, they gonna be broke within a few years just by those costs. Nuclear power is only cheap when the plant is running.
Funny fact, when you get numbers for the energy costs by "way of generation", waste disposal is always calculated into the price for every single one of them except Nuclear. One should wonder why.

I am not saying that every Nuclear plant should be shut down right now. That's Green people bullshit but saying Nuclear energy is clean and cheap is just the same bullshit on the other side of the scale.

Not to mention big consortium of enterprises being sabotaged by state interests when they actually try to build big alternative stuff (looking at you, France). Lame excuses, some are hilarious even, by politicians why certain deals for really clean energy from other countries are not made (Norway and Germany have one incident which is pathetic and ridiculous at the same time).
There is hardly another topic I've seen more bullshit being spread through official channels than "Energy generation". Maybe cuz I am an electric engineer and happen to know that stuff... So many blatant lies going round, it ain't even funny.

/rant

Isn't nuclear cheaper than the usual suspects of green energy if we really count everything ?

Building dozens of wind turbines far away from each other, producing energy when nobody needs it doesn't seem to be a good deal.
Neither do solar panels that have a barely positive energy balance.
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: Leshma on May 21, 2014, 05:41:51 pm
Last post, I swear :D

Clean and renewable energy is viable from the pure technical point of view. There are so many more concepts beside the windmill and the photovoltaic everyone knows..

Lemme tell you a little story about my country, Germany in case you don't already know...

There was this crazy offer from Norway once. They approached the German chancellor(ette) and some Minister of Industry/Economics/whatever it's called and said "Listen, we have so much water running trough our country, energy is so cheap for us, we can even heat our pedestrian walks in the winter to keep them free from snow and ice. We wanna make you an offer which could be awesome for both our nations. We build more water plants, like a bunch of them, and get people working there. Then we produce so much energy, we sell it to you for as good as nothing. You'll get clean and really cheap energy and we get some money and places for people to work at. And since we need to transport that energy, we would even put the cable into the sea for cheap, hell, we'll do it for free! What do you say?"
Some time went by, analyst made calculations claiming that deal could save the average energy consumer in Germany costs up to 45%! They were excited and full of joy. "We can have really cheap energy and clean on top! How awesome!"
Above mentioned Minister said nothing. Chancellor(ette) said nothing.
One day the crazy Norwegians came by again and asked "So? Did come to a decision about that energy thing we suggested?"
The proud and fine Minister took a deep breath and answered "Yea... well... you know... that cable in the sea... yea, no can do... it has a different specification than we need it according to our rulebook. No, sorry, not interested. Have a good day!"

It really happened like that. The "No" from our fine Minister had been made official like 2 - 3 years afterwards.
One of the main reasons it didn't go through was some "expert" of the ministry who said that the cable can't be connected to the plugs (simplified) we have at the shore. After the elections the Minister was replaced by someone else and that expert went working for Vattenfall. :lol:

Keeps pissing me off whenever I think about that shit.

Answer is really simple in that case. Germany doesn't want to be dependent on Norway.
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: Molly on May 21, 2014, 06:01:38 pm
Isn't nuclear cheaper than the usual suspects of green energy if we really count everything ?

Building dozens of wind turbines far away from each other, producing energy when nobody needs it doesn't seem to be a good deal.
Neither do solar panels that have a barely positive energy balance.
Granted, saving wind energy somewhere is an issue. And solar panels get better by the month but are not that efficient (current gen is at something like 40% efficiency... BUT - it's a big but - the energy costs are Null. Sunshine is free, wind is free (though wind when you don't want/need one is an actual problem).
But those 2 are just the most commonly known ways of renewable stuff. There are even simpler methods using the sun for example (oil, mirrors, turbine) which are way easier to build and maintain with just a part of the costs.
There have been calculations - theoretical! - that planting half the Sahara with those oil-mirror-things could supply full Europe.

I am not saying they are perfect or good enough to make Nuclear power obsolete. But saying they are not viable is not true, neither is saying Nuclear power is cheap.
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: cmp on May 21, 2014, 06:49:20 pm
here are even simpler methods using the sun for example (oil, mirrors, turbine) which are way easier to build and maintain with just a part of the costs.
There have been calculations - theoretical! - that planting half the Sahara with those oil-mirror-things could supply full Europe.

4 million square kilometers of parabolic mirrors?
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: Molly on May 21, 2014, 06:52:34 pm
That's why there is the word "theoretical".
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: Kafein on May 21, 2014, 06:59:22 pm
In my opinion, the best results for the least effort can be achieved through energy efficiency and perhaps a better energy grid. And by energy grid I mainly mean locating power-hungry industry near dams, like in Brazil.
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: cmp on May 21, 2014, 06:59:44 pm
That's why there is the word "theoretical".

I don't get the purpose of that statement. What I read is: "Renewable energy is good because x, y, z. Here's a theoretical example that shows how inefficient and unfeasible it is."
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: SirCymro_Crusader on May 21, 2014, 07:38:32 pm
.
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: Molly on May 21, 2014, 08:14:23 pm
I don't get the purpose of that statement. What I read is: "Renewable energy is good because x, y, z. Here's a theoretical example that shows how inefficient and unfeasible it is."
Right now the most heard/used argument against renewable energy is their cost/power rate. Too expensive for the power they supply. My argument against this statement is that sunshine and wind doesn't cost a thing and that even today a proper amount of power could be generated if people were willing to get their arse going and/or the industry giants stop spoiling it wherever they can... I digress.

Listen, that Sahara example is just a mind game, a thought. Though there have been activities to get something like that going - in a smaller case - in Armenia. That's the thing with the consortium being undermined by a country's government.
Imagine every single house in a country had cheap solar panels on top. Does it really matter how efficient they are? When you burn coal, gas or use radioactivity, you're burning money. You don't burn anything when the sun shines.
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: Overdriven on May 21, 2014, 08:20:18 pm
Living Wage - This country needs this, the minimum wage is ok but it is not sufficient enough to live on, it needs to be increased by around £1-2

Depends on your situation. I'm married, my wife is currently not earning as is working on a start up business idea, I only earn minimum wage, pay £250 a month to commute an hour each way every day for my job, we rent a 1 bed flat (in Brighton so expensive) and we manage fine. We don't live lavishly, we live well within our means but can still eat out once a week (more than most) and can plan holidays and day trips all within that budget.

I think if people managed their budgets more it wouldn't be an issue. The problem is people feel the need to spend on things they can't actually afford rather than prioritising between needs and wants. A lot of people don't understand that if you want something, you need to save for it rather than spending money you don't have because you want it NOW.

If you have kids, that's another story.
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: Tore on May 21, 2014, 10:27:46 pm
Green parties are like watermelons, green on the outside, red on the inside
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: NejStark on May 21, 2014, 10:56:48 pm
Depends on your situation. I'm married, my wife is currently not earning as is working on a start up business idea, I only earn minimum wage, pay £250 a month to commute an hour each way every day for my job, we rent a 1 bed flat (in Brighton so expensive) and we manage fine. We don't live lavishly, we live well within our means but can still eat out once a week (more than most) and can plan holidays and day trips all within that budget.

I think if people managed their budgets more it wouldn't be an issue. The problem is people feel the need to spend on things they can't actually afford rather than prioritising between needs and wants. A lot of people don't understand that if you want something, you need to save for it rather than spending money you don't have because you want it NOW.

If you have kids, that's another story.

Move to Newcastle man. We have a 3 bed house in a decent part of town for the price of a 1 bed appt in brighton, the commute is about 5 mins to town. And min wage is same for the whole country so even on it, you'd be better off.
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: NejStark on May 21, 2014, 10:58:03 pm
7 policies that cost a lot of money, where is the money gonna come from?
Selling weed.
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: Tomas_Miles_again on May 22, 2014, 12:27:04 am
Government regulated weed.  :lol:

Also perhaps a change in income tax.
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: SirCymro_Crusader on May 22, 2014, 12:46:29 am
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Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: FleetFox on May 22, 2014, 09:59:52 am
You are extremely luck then.

I've had to study a lot of stuff based on poverty and minimum wage and all sorts of stuff like that. It depends more on location, benefits, hours, etc etc than how much you earn, but a living wage (all in all) would be a huge benefit.

Yes definitely, and like Overdriven said its those young families or single mothers with kids who are only on minimum wage suffer the most.
Title: Re: UK peeps, thinking of ever voting in your life? Must see!
Post by: Overdriven on May 22, 2014, 10:05:30 am
Move to Newcastle man. We have a 3 bed house in a decent part of town for the price of a 1 bed appt in brighton, the commute is about 5 mins to town. And min wage is same for the whole country so even on it, you'd be better off.

Tempting if it weren't for all the jordies  :P