cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: EyeBeat on April 28, 2014, 06:53:19 am

Title: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: EyeBeat on April 28, 2014, 06:53:19 am
How many people feel the same?

I disagree with the change.  It has messed everything up for me.
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: Life on April 28, 2014, 06:54:02 am
I like it. i feel like i glance less or hit the head of my target more.
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: EyeBeat on April 28, 2014, 07:02:16 am
I like it. i feel like i glance less or hit the head of my target more.

It is a direct nerf to my play style.  The range is reduced.
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: San on April 28, 2014, 10:09:28 am
I'm skeptical that the reach was nerfed.

A few quick images I took for Tydeus' right swing vs native's (I don't have the first tweaked right swing from Tydeus, but I'll assume the reach is the same as native's). Since the player's position is constant, you can see the difference in reach by looking at the shadow. It's easy to see how far off to the side it reaches by looking at the number of boxes down, and reach by looking at the number of boxes it reaches forward. Slightly longer than 3 boxes still outreaches pretty much every swing and is close to 1h stab/2h overhead.

Frames didn't align, so this was as close as I could get. This doesn't take into account any animation blending and other possible effects that could alter distance by a few cm, but at least it's something. I might do some in-game reach tests tomorrow evening just to be sure. To be honest, native's right swing also looked awkard, so now it's just another kind of awkward we have to deal with. I think performance-wise it's better (maybe too much better) with the same reach.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: EyeBeat on April 28, 2014, 11:07:22 am
It is better in close range.  I do not disagree with that. 

But you know how I play with the long range pokes.  It does not feel at all the same.
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: Admiral Ballsack on May 07, 2014, 11:39:16 pm
It is better in close range.  I do not disagree with that. 

But you know how I play with the long range pokes.  It does not feel at all the same.

I feel the same way, S-Keying with the new swing does no justice and glances more often it feels.

I only used that swing when I skeyed to outrange the enemy.
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: San on May 08, 2014, 01:15:09 am
That seems like something that would have to be done with WSE(so it won't happen), since native functionality is to use the same exact animation for 1hers, regardless of the presence of a shield. I don't know of a trigger that I could use, to tell the character to use the appropriate release animation.

I added the .brf to a .rar file so it can be downloaded easier. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/24876970/cRPG%20Stuff/anim_tydeus_nudges.rar (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/24876970/cRPG%20Stuff/anim_tydeus_nudges.rar). Just replace the anim_tydeus_nudges.brf found inside your warband/modules/crpg/resources/ folder, with the one inside the .rar.

See if the edited version works for you. The current right swing looks odd, especially when warband tries to blend the animation while you're moving; from what I notice in-game, however, my right swing lands just the same as the old one. I do think the diagonal slice may cause one to miss in some situations and it is slightly faster, but I still don't believe the reach is shorter.
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on May 08, 2014, 01:25:41 am
It doesn't seem to have reduced range to me. I'm also a mostly shieldless warhammer user, so when the fuck am I going to outrange someone with a right swing, when a dagger guy is coming at me?
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: Kafein on May 08, 2014, 08:34:34 am
Now that I got used to it I think it's fine. Still odd-looking, but otherwise fine.
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on May 08, 2014, 09:04:46 am
I felt that with longer 1h weps like the high end swords I still got caught on walls/players despite feeling like shorter reach. With axes/maces/daggers it just feels like a faster right swing and lets you spam left & right more smoothly. When I am doing some fancy footwork with my knife, I can spin freely right or left, where before I had to do figure 8s turning left only or else I would get beaten to the swing.
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: HarunYahya on May 08, 2014, 09:52:03 am
I'm skeptical that the reach was nerfed.

A few quick images I took for Tydeus' right swing vs native's (I don't have the first tweaked right swing from Tydeus, but I'll assume the reach is the same as native's). Since the player's position is constant, you can see the difference in reach by looking at the shadow. It's easy to see how far off to the side it reaches by looking at the number of boxes down, and reach by looking at the number of boxes it reaches forward. Slightly longer than 3 boxes still outreaches pretty much every swing and is close to 1h stab/2h overhead.

Frames didn't align, so this was as close as I could get. This doesn't take into account any animation blending and other possible effects that could alter distance by a few cm, but at least it's something. I might do some in-game reach tests tomorrow evening just to be sure. To be honest, native's right swing also looked awkard, so now it's just another kind of awkward we have to deal with. I think performance-wise it's better (maybe too much better) with the same reach.

(click to show/hide)
Range is reduced. Since the swing is angled horizontally now,effective reach of the sword is fucked up. Play with a long 1h like ACS on foot, you'll see that your swings go on top of the head of 2handers who aim at your feet. They simply bow their heads to dodge your awkwardly high aimed swing.
I dunno what was the intention of this change but it nerfed long 1handers bigtime while buffing short 1handers heavily since right swing does not glance now. 1hander class doesn't need an alternative to leftswing though, it's the best animation to deal damage to the head at close distance, right swing was a good poke now 1handers are even more defenceless against backpedaller bundle of stickss.
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: Sniger on May 08, 2014, 10:47:30 am
why was it changed?
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: HarunYahya on May 08, 2014, 10:52:30 am
why was it changed?
Because fuck you and all other 1handers, that's why.
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: bavvoz on May 08, 2014, 11:11:06 am
Im trying to endure until it get reverted (plz say it will)
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: Kafein on May 08, 2014, 04:40:05 pm
Range is reduced. Since the swing is angled horizontally now,effective reach of the sword is fucked up. Play with a long 1h like ACS on foot, you'll see that your swings go on top of the head of 2handers who aim at your feet. They simply bow their heads to dodge your awkwardly high aimed swing.
I dunno what was the intention of this change but it nerfed long 1handers bigtime while buffing short 1handers heavily since right swing does not glance now. 1hander class doesn't need an alternative to leftswing though, it's the best animation to deal damage to the head at close distance, right swing was a good poke now 1handers are even more defenceless against backpedaller bundle of stickss.

Mmh, maybe you are right, I didn't think about people duking below the swing. It's not like it happens all that often though.
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: Teeth on May 08, 2014, 05:32:18 pm
Wat, now the tendency to hit at head height for an animation is a disadvantage because people duck under the swing? That is the most desperate, far fetched whine I have ever heard.
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on May 08, 2014, 06:08:36 pm
It seems fine to me with my 90 length sword. Turn into your right swing and get a free headshot.

I'm disinclined to be sympathetic to the whines of s-keying huscarl shield and 100 length sword players, though.
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: kono yaro! on May 09, 2014, 12:03:17 am
the right swing is fine. it glances less at close range and generally makes a lot more sense now
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: Sniger on May 09, 2014, 02:41:40 am
the right swing is fine. it glances less at close range and generally makes a lot more sense now

.... said the 2h mauler tincan  :lol:
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: Sniger on May 09, 2014, 02:44:29 am
why was it changed?

i really like to know. and some logic reasoning too! please.

id like to know who thinks he is smarter than the ones creating the game he have made a mod for.
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: HarunYahya on May 09, 2014, 04:02:53 am
Teeth did u just remove my post ?
You know forum admining is for actually admining not throwing shit at people then delete their responds to you.

Mmh, maybe you are right, I didn't think about people duking below the swing. It's not like it happens all that often though.
It's happening quiet often, 2handers tend to bow their heads down to avoid teamhit in fights and even some nerds aim your feet if you wear low armored footgear

Wat, now the tendency to hit at head height for an animation is a disadvantage because people duck under the swing? That is the most desperate, far fetched whine I have ever heard.
If i am not high enough to think i sent my reply imaginary, you really are fucked up in the head terribly.
You are playing this game for 5 years, still don't have a clue about 1hander class...

Leftswing = High damage, low reach
Overhead = Medium damage, medium reach
Rightswing = Medium damage, high reach (Downside compared to overhead = no damage at close reach by glancing)

Fucking up with this default balance is a terrible idea.
With this change, right swing has the function of overhead with a retarded,gimpy animation medium range-medium damage

I am taking screenshot of this post, I hope this time you'll try to learn the game you've been playing for 5 years instead of removing this post due to butthurt.

Turns out i was really high enough to think that, sorry for accusations Teeth !  :oops:
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: San on May 09, 2014, 04:26:20 am
This is what right swing will look like next patch unless you provide feedback: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/24876970/cRPG%20Stuff/anim_tydeus_nudges.rar Drop it in your  warband/modules/crpg/resources/ folder and temporarily rename the old tydeus_anim.brf.

You have the option of whining while doing nothing, or helping out with a future change.

why was it changed?

Considering it was tweaked by the same person last year (for the better).. I have faith that it'll eventually get to a satisfactory level.

Quote
Leftswing = High damage, low reach
Overhead = Medium damage, medium reach
Rightswing = Medium damage, high reach (Downside compared to overhead = no damage at close reach by glancing)

Overhead deals more damage than right swing and left swing. Left swing and right swing deal the same damage. The way glancing works for sideswings is also a lot dumber than you can believe.
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: HarunYahya on May 09, 2014, 04:41:27 am
Overhead deals more damage than right swing and left swing. Left swing and right swing deal the same damage. The way glancing works for sideswings is also a lot dumber than you can believe.
I dunno the math part of it, basing my feedback on my experiences.
Left swing goes directly to head and can have speed bonus by turning into swings thus crowning it champion of 1h swings.
Overhead doesn't have the speed bonus, can be aimed to head but might glance,hit body,stuck on guy behind you etc long story short: Risky compared to left swing.
Right swing is the only poking option against opponents who rely on range such as 2h,polearms,cavs

Not mentioning stabs since i've been using manly arabian stuff since start.

This is what right swing will look like next patch unless you provide feedback: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/24876970/cRPG%20Stuff/anim_tydeus_nudges.rar Drop it in your  warband/modules/crpg/resources/ folder and temporarily rename the old tydeus_anim.brf.

You have the option of whining while doing nothing, or helping out with a future change.

Considering it was tweaked by the same person last year (for the better).. I have faith that it'll eventually get to a satisfactory level.
I'll try this and share feedback here.
This is not only going to fix the bulky animation but the hitbox and angle of the swing aswell with future patch ?
What is the intention of this change in first place anyway ?
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: San on May 09, 2014, 05:02:34 am
Whoops, yeah, outside of the head-hitting part. Left swing would deal more when it hits the head, then (I personally look down when I fight, so my left swings hit the body  :oops:). For some reason, overheads just deal more damage in general, with additional bonus damage to the head.

I can't really speak for Tydeus. I just shrugged and said go for it if he thinks he can improve it since I liked his last right swing change.

Edit: Clarified a few points better.
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: Tydeus on May 09, 2014, 05:10:14 am
id like to know who thinks he is smarter than the ones creating the game he have made a mod for.
Anyone who thinks Warband is a Masterpiece, is simply ignorant of the facts.  :|
This is not only going to fix the bulky animation but the hitbox and angle of the swing aswell with future patch ?
What is the intention of this change in first place anyway ?
Once patched, the server will use the new animation for hit detection.

The intention was to simply make it a more viable swing. It's not really the type of change that is easy to get perfect on the first try since you have to find the right angle where it won't collide with things that it shouldn't(not just from a user's standpoint, but a balance standpoint)and will still connect when desired.

The old animation certainly had its use, and it definitely excelled in its area of expertise. The intention is simply to increase usability. When people talk about weapon reach, it's spoken about from a "best case scenario", which is with your opponent directly in front of you. In this situation, the 1h right swing hasn't lost anything(at least nothing worth mentioning). It's only on the sharper angles where this becomes an issue. If the issue is effective reach at any given time, then I'd rather focus on when in the old animation the reach really started getting used, and make the new animation's reach available at that same point in time.
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: HarunYahya on May 09, 2014, 05:45:35 am
Anyone who thinks Warband is a Masterpiece, is simply ignorant of the facts.  :| Once patched, the server will use the new animation for hit detection.

The intention was to simply make it a more viable swing. It's not really the type of change that is easy to get perfect on the first try since you have to find the right angle where it won't collide with things that it shouldn't(not just from a user's standpoint, but a balance standpoint)and will still connect when desired.

The old animation certainly had its use, and it definitely excelled in its area of expertise. The intention is simply to increase usability. When people talk about weapon reach, it's spoken about from a "best case scenario", which is with your opponent directly in front of you. In this situation, the 1h right swing hasn't lost anything(at least nothing worth mentioning). It's only on the sharper angles where this becomes an issue. If the issue is effective reach at any given time, then I'd rather focus on when in the old animation the reach really started getting used, and make the new animation's reach available at that same point in time.
Thanks for detailed explanations, even if you create the best animation, people will rage because messing with animation brings a new learning curve to adept the change and everyone hates that process  :lol:
I tried the new animation but haven't noticed anything to be honest. Feeling a bit dull now  :rolleyes:

Did I do something wrong when overwriting BRFs ? Or am i really a stupid who can't see the difference ? :(




PS: 2nd animation is future animation. Failed and named it native animation
CBA to reedit and upload since its already 7 am and i haven't slept.
Animations in order
1) Current
2) Planned, future
3)Standart native

Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: San on May 09, 2014, 06:00:02 am
From my perspective, it looked like a slightly upward angled "older" right swing. I can try to upload a small clip tomorrow.
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: HarunYahya on May 09, 2014, 06:10:29 am
Lol all 3 seem pretty close, i thought the initial delay of the animation was added with this patch aswell.
We tend to throw shit at new stuff without testing it i guess  :twisted:

So basically
Native animation = Horizontal cut
Current animation = Diagonal cut
Future animation = Something between native and current one

Correct ?

After seeing those 3 in slow-mo, i have to admit i overreacted to this change,reach seems pretty same (Maybe lower due to angle but who knows the true reach of right swings anyway ?) and the angle can be adjusted by practice. My "people bow their heads and you can't hit em" whine won't be valid after i adapt and aim a lil low to compensate the swing's angle to hit my enemy's head.

This is just a very very small change which i still don't think it's necessary just because i don't want to be arsed with that adaptation process.

Edit: I forgot the upside of the new animation  :oops:
Downside =We got to practice it and learn how to use it properly
Upside = Now right swing doesn't glance at close targets

Wouldn't expect to say that but good work Tydeus lol. I just had to see those on slow motion to understand this rework is actually good .
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: Sniger on May 09, 2014, 12:05:08 pm
warband is still good enough for you to spend years on creating and maintaining a mod for that game.

chadz not working on it anymore. crpg is now the trainee project, the way to train and teach the new young devs. they are alchemisting and we are testdummy'ing and if we aint testdummy'ing, we should stfu about anything cos trainees knows wtf they do.

 :lol:
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: Thryn on May 09, 2014, 02:24:58 pm
We should force San and Tydeus to drop everything and rework the BearForce mod.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: Gravoth_iii on May 09, 2014, 03:45:22 pm
The 1h right swing is amazing i dont know what people dislike about it, its got amazing reach, instant hit potential, wonky animation can be confusing and its fast. I right swing 90% of the time now.
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: HarunYahya on May 09, 2014, 04:42:53 pm
warband is still good enough for you to spend years on creating and maintaining a mod for that game.

chadz not working on it anymore. crpg is now the trainee project, the way to train and teach the new young devs. they are alchemisting and we are testdummy'ing and if we aint testdummy'ing, we should stfu about anything cos trainees knows wtf they do.

 :lol:
Well both Strat and cRPG are beta for 4 years for a reason :D
I don't mind being the labrat if experimentalists keep explaining their projects,asking my opinion about what they gonna do to my poor body :)
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: Kafein on May 10, 2014, 12:05:05 am
Wat, now the tendency to hit at head height for an animation is a disadvantage because people duck under the swing? That is the most desperate, far fetched whine I have ever heard.

Zlisch is pretty much the only player I know who does that intentionally.
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: Thryn on May 13, 2014, 05:09:42 pm
I like the idea of the new animation;
(insane concept art coming up)

From native, the slash directions looked like: \ (left) and _ (right)

Now the idea is to do something that looks more comfortable: \ (left) and / (right)

The original slash made me think of a pitcher's arm mid-pitch
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: Kafein on May 14, 2014, 04:14:07 pm
(click to show/hide)

Screw you now I'll have nightmares of chickenmen.
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: spiritus on May 15, 2014, 04:08:12 pm
Whoops, yeah, outside of the head-hitting part. Left swing would deal more when it hits the head, then (I personally look down when I fight, so my left swings hit the body  :oops:). For some reason, overheads just deal more damage in general, with additional bonus damage to the head.

I can't really speak for Tydeus. I just shrugged and said go for it if he thinks he can improve it since I liked his last right swing change.

Edit: Clarified a few points better.
san you should try the wakishashi for king weabooness and ulti spam power
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: San on May 15, 2014, 04:09:40 pm
Meh, chinese is where it's at.
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: MURDERTRON on May 19, 2014, 01:08:16 am
I think the new animation makes the ghost reach of the Elite Scimitar less (more?) apparent, which is why Eyebeat is having a hard time.  It's awesome that this change has fixed longstanding glaring issue, although in a roundabout faction.  Eyebeat may just have to find something else to crutch.
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: Tydeus on May 19, 2014, 02:12:55 am
I am getting used to the new right swing.  I guess it isn't that bad.
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: Sniger on May 19, 2014, 07:16:57 am
I like the idea of the new animation;

From native, the slash directions looked like: \ (left) and _ (right)

Now the idea is to do something that looks more comfortable: \ (left) and / (right)

before, we had \ (left) and | (overhead) and _ (right)

now, we have \ (left) and | (overhead) and / (right - same as left just mirrored)

\ | _

\ | /

do you see difference? i do and also i feel the difference. i hate it. will never get use to it. before i had 3 "directions", now only 2.
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: Soldier_of_God on May 19, 2014, 07:58:51 am
Meh, leave it in, its better for gameplay. animations are shitty, but thats being worked on.
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: Thryn on May 19, 2014, 02:47:20 pm
Since we're on animations, does the 2h up attack nudge look kind of wonky (it stutters) in-game?

I've looked at it in openbrf and it looks fine there.
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: Tydeus on May 19, 2014, 03:54:03 pm
Since we're on animations, does the 2h up attack nudge look kind of wonky (it stutters) in-game?

I've looked at it in openbrf and it looks fine there.
It's because of how it was implemented(the animation had to be sped up a ton). So yes.
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: Thryn on May 19, 2014, 03:56:42 pm
It's because of how it was implemented(the animation had to be sped up a ton). So yes.

Awww :(

I really liked the thought of a sword hilt smashing in a visor  :)
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: EyeBeat on May 23, 2014, 09:06:15 pm
I think the new animation makes the ghost reach of the Elite Scimitar less (more?) apparent, which is why Eyebeat is having a hard time.  It's awesome that this change has fixed longstanding glaring issue, although in a roundabout faction.  Eyebeat may just have to find something else to crutch.

Haha.

I seriously doubt anyone EVER crutched on the old right hand swing.  Or even the new one.
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: Sniger on May 24, 2014, 05:08:04 pm
also: in close 3rd person fights, many players tend to look more down than usal cos its so close fight, if they dont they wont see where enemy is. this makes their character in game to bend over, making right swing more likely to miss, rendering rightswing even more useless than it was before (i dont think old was useless at all. its not suppose to be used in closefights. use other attack or step back if you want to right swing. but instead you change the gameplay into something YOU want, you changed it so it fits YOUR idea of how its suppose to be. +1000 for effort, -900 for the idea)
Title: Re: Revert right 1h swing change.
Post by: Teeth on May 24, 2014, 07:21:29 pm
If people look down in close-up fights, then a right swing with a higher angle makes them more likely to hit.