cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Grey on May 17, 2011, 10:35:23 pm
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B-swords and katanas use 2 slots. Thats fine IMHO, they are bulky items. If people want a "IF IT GOES ON YOUR WAIST, ITS ONLY 1 SLOT" argument go elsewhere pls. Or buy "Fighting axe" and "Langes Messer", both 1h/2h weapons for 1 slot.
I really want to know what the opinion is: if an item uses 2 slots, should it go on your back?
I would hate for players to have to wear their bastard swords and katanas on their backs if they didnt want to, but since the rule seems to be: Waist=1 slot. Back=2 slots. I PERSONALLY would really love to be able to wear katanas on the back like the larger swords, whats the opinion out there?
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Carrying weapons on the side looks more stylish.. at least for me. :wink:
Also, it would go against the purpose of the Katana, everyone knows that the first swipe comes when you pull it from the sheath, yeah?
I know it doesn't work like that in-game, but at least it looks like it.
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What about adjusting stats and use 1 slot ? Add it to the poll.
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What about adjusting stats and use 1 slot ? Add it to the poll.
No way, allowing players katana in 1slot is ok....but bastard swords in 1 slot would make them too useful imho, as it is, I would sooner fight with a bastard sword than any of the great swords (Back worn swords) except maybe the nodachi, but the nerf its taken.... *Im my opinion, using it with 12STR chars was its ONE advantage*
Anyway back to the point, if you have any polearms wpf as well as 2h, B-swords can be used SO effectively against any oponent...
Katana doesnt have the halfsword, and YES, its supposed to be drawn as you engage so you slash up and outwards from the sheath, but that is a dueling style, you would not "snap" your blade out of the sheath into armoured opponents, you cannot get the full force into it.....
BACK TO THE POINT: Katana on my back is WHAT I CRAVE.....now, you guys want it too, or not, thats the poll. If nuff ppl want it maybe we can bitch and moan untill some amazing person is like....WOAH!, They want back katanas? I can totally do that!
VOTE NOW!
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Katana belongs on the belt. Bastard sword I don't really care either way, but I don't see why it should be changed.
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Yuck
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Both the katana and bastard sword were worn at the hip.
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Both the katana and bastard sword were worn at the hip.
But historically it was recorded that mountain and hill forest dwelling people wore their swords on their backs in japan to not get tangled....
Im talking WANT, not what did happen.
I want back katana for my 10 armour 27 agi char....
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Katana and swords on the back is silly. Swords were carried on the back when packed for traveling and could not be drawn over the shoulder. The alternative was a kind of baldric that you can adjust the position of the sword either on the back for travel or more loosely hang to be drawn from under the left arm (usually left hand grabing the sheath, the other pulling out the sword) - never over the shoulder.
2 slots for this weapon is fine, what exactly is the problem with that? If anything, it is the 2H swords that need the "unsheathable" flag instead.
edit:
OK I remembered, ninja swords could be drawn over the shoulder. It still required a loosely hanging baldric-like sheath and the left hand to grab it.
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OK I remembered, ninja swords could be drawn over the shoulder. It still required a loosely hanging baldric-like sheath and the left hand to grab it.
THIS.
Also, yes, Flamberge and the Great swords should unsheathable, or have some kind of delay, the way you can pull and chop is ridunculous.
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It annoys me that I can't go Shield + Longsword + Lance when cavalry
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It annoys me that I can't go Shield + Longsword + Lance when cavalry
You can go shield + lance + (short) sword/spamitar/mace...
It's not like lance cav is underpowered...
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You can go shield + lance + (short) sword/spamitar/mace...
It's not like lance cav is underpowered...
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It's not like it would make it overpowered either, just the same before slots :p
Just musing here, perhaps the unsheathable weaponry like lances needs to be 1 slot
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It's not like it would make it overpowered either, just the same before slots :p
Just musing here, perhaps the unsheathable weaponry like lances needs to be 1 slot
Well, that was just the reason slots were removed, ppl were carrying lance + bow + arrows + flamberge lol
In the current state of the game, that would be kind of op.
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only in comics and legend of zelda games would you find a warrior sheathing a weapon of that size on his back
its completely impractical for a combat situation.. this gives me an idea though
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Well, that was just the reason slots were removed, ppl were carrying lance + bow + arrows + flamberge lol
In the current state of the game, that would be kind of op.
If you make all large weapons unsheathable (like they should be!), then regardless of the # of slots assigned to them two things immediately apply:
1. You cannot carry two unsheathable weapons (so no lance+flamberg, or pike+poleaxe, etc)
2. If you switched weapons the unsheathable drops. So in the example of lance+bow, you have to start with the lance in hand. If the players switched to bow the lance dropped and while galloping on a horse it means bye-bye to the lance.
Conclusion:
Lowering the slots # of unsheathable weapons is a good idea if and only if ALL large weapons are made unsheathable. This means all pure 2H swords and nearly all polearms.
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If you make all large weapons unsheathable (like they should be!), then regardless of the # of slots assigned to them two things immediately apply:
1. You cannot carry two unsheathable weapons (so no lance+flamberg, or pike+poleaxe, etc)
2. If you switched weapons the unsheathable drops. So in the example of lance+bow, you have to start with the lance in hand. If the players switched to bow the lance dropped and while galloping on a horse it means bye-bye to the lance.
Conclusion:
Lowering the slots # of unsheathable weapons is a good idea if and only if ALL large weapons are made unsheathable. This means all pure 2H swords and nearly all polearms.
A simple leather loop attached to the back of your armor allows you to sheath a great many weapons like 2h swords and polearms that are reasonably short (e.g. for 2h swords, the blade should be shorter than the distance from the loop to the bottom, obviously, which might rule out the flamberge, but not all the other 2h swords).
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2H swords were packed and slang over the shoulder for travel. The 2H swords in game have 120 cm of blade and an overall length of 150 cm or more, quite similar to many real swords. The length of your arm is much less than 120cm and this is the distance from the shoulder you need to pull in order to get the blade in/out of this loop you describe. It is completely impractical in real life - the user arrived to the battle with the sword in hand and did not sheath it till he was preparing to travel again.
In game terms, which is much more important, the unsheathable tag makes the weapon a "primary" weapon by definition: you can have only one, start with it in hand and loose it if you pull out another weapon/shield. This naturally eliminates the xbow-flambergers, the archer-poleaxer, thrower-longaxeman etc. A hybrid limiter, which was one of the goals. It does not even require slot # limitation.
Large 2H weapons and polearms are role defining weapons. A bow is what makes an archer, if you carry a pike you are a pikeman fore and foremost and if you carry a big ass 2H sword you are primary big ass swordman - you do not bring a meter and a half sword as a sidearm, nor a polearm like the Bec, nor a GLA.
I think that this is a perfect and fair balanced system. I see no problem setting all slot # of unsheathable weapons to 1. Lance+shield+longsword sounds like a reasonable setup which will be allowed if unsheathable lance requires 1 slot. Lance+shield+GLA not so much and should be ruled out when the GLA gets the unsheathable flag.
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good read
MouthnHoof lays it out nicelly
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It's not impractical at all, I have a scottish claymore and can easily "sheath" it into my back loop and also "unsheath" it in a matter of 1-2 seconds. It's no lightsabre, you know, it's perfectly possible to touch it on the blade.
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I was about to make a long explanatory post as to why that is stupid and they can't be drawn from there -- but mouthnHoof already did a good job.
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It's not impractical at all, I have a scottish claymore and can easily "sheath" it into my back loop and also "unsheath" it in a matter of 1-2 seconds. It's no lightsabre, you know, it's perfectly possible to touch it on the blade.
Touching the blade without propper care will rust it
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It's not impractical at all, I have a scottish claymore and can easily "sheath" it into my back loop and also "unsheath" it in a matter of 1-2 seconds. It's no lightsabre, you know, it's perfectly possible to touch it on the blade.
I'd love to see it. Sure, I can unsheath a sword which hangs on my back from shoulder to ankle by hanging upside down from a tree.
Regardless, my main arguments is gameplay and balance. The fact that it goes hand in hand with historical accuracy is the icing. "Unsheathable" tag create primary and secondary weapons. It solves many previous balancing problems even without slot # limitations. Flagging ALL** large weapons as unsheathable allows to reduce the slot requirement of such weapons to 1.
Advantages:
1. Cannot carry two large primary weapons even if slots are available (example: pike+GLA, pike+German)
2. All ranged hybrids will loose they melee weapon if they bring one and switch to xbow/bow/throw. Archers cannot shoot and then pull out a Bec/GLA/German. Hybrids that wish to switch back and forth between melee/range must use 1H or short 2H weapons.
3. The lowered slot requirement for large unsheathable weapons allows a more varied secondary equipment selection which is not overpowered. Example: Lance+shield+2slot medium melee item like bastard. Or two small weapons.
4. Makes 1h and other short 2H weapons much more valuable even if you do not intend to use a shield because you can always carry it.
5. Exposes 2H sword / polearm users to ranged because they cannot carry the unsheathable weapon when holding a shield - need more team work.
**ALL - Practically every 2H item which currently carried on the back. Some concessions are possible for short 2H weapons like some axes. All polearms - yes, ALL of them: Poleaxes, Bardiches, GLA are all fine pieces, but the concession is that if you bring one, you have to stick with it or drop it. The largest Xbows - in return, the reduced slot requirement get you more bolts, or the ability to carry a large shield, or bringing a siege shield (your pavis), or a 2-slot sheathable weapon. Throwing lances.
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The katana is never sheathed on the back. You cant speed draw that way, iaido doesnt work from the back, and the draw has been an integral part of learning the blade for centuries.
besides. it looks cool on the waist, and you can tell instantly whether an opponent is usinag a katana or nodachi simply by looking at sheath location.
it would be cool if you equipped both katana and wakazashi if both sheaths were displayed all samurai style
I dont use eastern armors or the katana or nodachi, btw. but I appreciate the diversity on the field, and I think that altering this would look silly.
the OP is about where to put these specific weapons.... not the entire classes in general. so lets stay on topic
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Touching the blade without propper care will rust it
Using the blade in battle will break it.
This is a back scabbard: http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/OL1038.jpg
But a simple leather loop works, too. If you can't imagine how a long, cross-shaped object can be carried in a leather loop attached at the back of your armor, you have my pity. Additional to the back scabbard and the leather loop, a whole host of more sophisticated methods existed to carry long weapons on your back, from simple double hooks to devices with mechanical locks.
I voted no, btw.
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I'm serious, if you're going to touch the blade each time...and I imagine you would touch the blade when sheathing it back in....you will rust the blade. I wouldn't want you to handle your claymore like that, good sword's don't come cheap.
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You are serious? Well, I oil my blade regularly, so touching is no problem. Also, I usually wear leather gloves or gauntlets, so touching is no problem at all.
I was serious, too, blocking mace-swings with a blade is not recommended.
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the OP is about where to put these specific weapons.... not the entire classes in general. so lets stay on topic
THANK YOU.
READ FIRST POST:
Slot system and sheathable, unsheathable, incredible, edible, thats ALL ANOTHER DISCUSSION>
The whole point of this thread was to see whether I should try and get backkatana's for community, which I can see from poll only a few want, or whether I should get the model made and just use it myself. I can see its most likely gonna be myself.
To those who say katana cannot be worn and drawn from back
http://cashtank.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=37_58&products_id=37
I merely want that. To me armour is a....prolonger of life, the sword is the only pure way top defend yourself, well the sword, stick, mace, dagger, hatchet, halberd, THE WEAPON is not affected by ooponents P dmg or B dmg, doesnt break after X number of hits and doesnt need IF points to work. It just works. So for me the weapon is the MOST important thing. And being stylish at all times is MORE important than armour, any decent blocker will tell you. So I just wanted a backsling for the long sidedraw, since katana anymation still seems to run from backsling......
EDIT: Just read back through some posts again: There are records from the Norman (lit. NORTH MAN, tribes once of northern Europe, several generations living in France, pushed out by germanic expansion) during "passifying" of the north of England after 1066 (They killed one person in every 4 in some northern counties)of the anglo-saxons (for those not good on history, read as English, but mostly of Northern European stock themselves, had conquered Britton and the Brittons by aggresive attrition over many generations and vast migration from their harsher climates to gain the arrable land of Britton) arriving with axes slung on their back on 2 things:
1. Slings: Believed to be a leather strap from the base of the axe handle, running to below the head. This would allow slinging and unslinging over the shoulder a matter of maybe 3 to 5 senconds between deciding you want your axe and having it ready to chop.
2. Hooks. One of these has been recovered whole I think, not too many years ago: I cant remember the name but the thing looks like a leather "bondage straps" over the chest, worn over the armour or clothes, and has 2 hooks on the leather straps on the part that runs down from right shoulder to left hip, a large axe could be easily worn and retrieved in under 10 seconds.....resitting it could take longer in a mail shirt I imagine, it looked slightly fiddly if youve got mittens on have been giving yourself blisters all day....
In both these cases the axe was worn with the "head" DOWNwards, and retrieval ("equiping") the axe was done with the right hand over the right shoulder, grasping the end of the handle or the SlingStrap (in cases of it being slung), and making circular motion the axe is brought "round" the body, the right forearm passing over the head, so the axe is "upside down and in the wrong hand" as we imagine it, on the wrong side of the body too, but pivoting it with both hands is a matter of seconds, remember, they were not fighting "Agility stacking Ninjas" and or "Run, jump, land AND PEW" archers, they didnt need to pop from SHIELD to AXE to THROWING every second, you stood in a line, got your shit together, SCREAMED at the enemy untill you had both got your balls up, and then advanced.
(I imagine you could retrieve a "slung" axe by passing the head UNDER the left arm and up into the "rest" position for axe handling in two hands but I have tried this IRL and in a tricky situation it would raise these 2 problems: FIRST, I dont wanna be grabbing blindly behind my left hip for an AXEHEAD with my HAND, that leads to only reaching 9 when you fingercount, and SECOND issue would be: Ok youve swung the axe round in perfect place to enter the fray BUUUUUT its still slung over your back, so good luck fighting with a weapon youve attached to yourself)
You are serious? Well, I oil my blade regularly, so touching is no problem. Also, I usually wear leather gloves or gauntlets, so touching is no problem at all.
I was serious, too, blocking mace-swings with a blade is not recommended.
I dont "oil" my "blade" regularly, since m'lady says "touching is no problem at all" :D
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I was obviously not referring to THAT blade, or else my third sentence would have been wrong :).
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I dont "oil" my "blade" regularly, since m'lady says "touching is no problem at all" :D
Someone made a suggestion about naming your weapon, but naming the sheath? Cmon! :D
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Mountnhoof, I agree.
Even though I mostly play as a polearm specialist, I'd like to see them become unsheathable-1 slot for realism and balance purposes.
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This is a back scabbard: http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/OL1038.jpg
It is a baldric scabbard for traveling with the weapon, where the hanging strip is very short. The sword it is not useable this way. To be used in combat they'd take the scabbard off, take out the weapon and then do whatever with it. Not really a speed draw.
To those who say katana cannot be worn and drawn from back
http://cashtank.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=37_58&products_id=37
It is not drawn "from the back". This is a weird version of a baldric - a hanging scabbard. To be draw, the scabbard is pulled to the hip in the left hand and drawn from there like a normal sword.
Here is how a Nodachi is carried:
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Either like a big stick, or using the strap across the body - it dangles on the back, but drawn from the hip. It is not the fastest way to pull a sword, but at least it functions for a large blade. You can see it hanging here, starting at 3:15:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5cyKZAbYQI&feature=player_detailpage#t=185s
Seven Samurai is a great movie. The western version is not bad either though on a completely different dimension.
You can find wood-axe scabbard in shops to hand it from the back. Those I saw look like a pistol holster, the shaft goes through like the barrel and the head is covered in the leather like the pistol grip, so you do not hurt yourself. Again, it is not meant to be drawn in a hurry in case a tree attacks you - it is just a carrying device for travel to the tree.
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MouthNHoof: Your points all very good, especially about 7 Samurai: one of the best epics of all time; Epic meaning here, Epic battles. The storyline is solid, the acting pretty topnotch, and the historical accuracy is ntb either:
back ontopic: the katana now has the correct draw animation so this whole topic is rendered useless :D