cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Prpavi on February 23, 2014, 02:41:28 pm

Title: About Horse Archers
Post by: Prpavi on February 23, 2014, 02:41:28 pm
With the recent patches I found my HA to be completely useless. Heaven't played much last couple of weeks, even deleted the game but I managed to play more this weekend.

What I noticed is even with top tier gear for HA (Yumi, Bodkins) and a completely dedicated build (no athletics, no powerstrike, all wpf in archery) I deal no damage to example Plated Charger (tracking the points) sometimes I deal 1 point of dmg, using Barbed or Tatars makes no sense any more. Getting valor is impossible because of the low dmg so that was also taken away from a class that barely survives financially.

Now I understand the hatred towards the class and am aware of the massive unpopularity of it, I was the one who hated it too but have grown to like it. It is quite sad that a lvl34 char with high tier equipement can't help his team and is forced to retire. I made sacrifices reagarding the build (fully dedicated), I grinded my melee alt just to sell loom point so I can afford the upkeep (lost over 800k so far since September) and now I can't do shit for my team and contribute. (I accept that my data is not 100% correct but not that far off either)

Maybe changes like this are the reason people are fleeing, I will not rage quit or make "I'm butthurt and quitting so everybody must know it" thread on the forums but I'm sure as hell gonna play less.

Please in the future when balancing the game these things in consideration, I'm sure HT will be hit next, HX already dead. Would be fair to the players if you just removed mounted ranged classes instead of nerfing them till nobody plays them. I would have no problem with that

Love, Prpavi
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: jtobiasm on February 23, 2014, 02:47:12 pm
Getting valor is impossible because of the low dmg so that was also taken away from a class that barely survives financially.

I disagree, getting valour is a lot easier than doing it as a foot archer.
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Panos_ on February 23, 2014, 02:49:19 pm
Please buff polearms, I find it sad that I cant 1hit everyone.
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on February 23, 2014, 02:57:31 pm
Has to be only you then. I get damaged by HA regularly. My +3 Plated Charger is quite durable against HA, but not immune.
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: oreshy on February 23, 2014, 03:08:01 pm
...try dedicated ht with 5 pt & jarids then , only 2 headthrows & 5-6 bodyhits out from 12 jarids needed on a full str plate (for example fins plated ha-alt) , but i still don't feeling useless.

..but i agree, the speed damage nerf sucks.
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Tzar on February 23, 2014, 03:18:03 pm
When will you dumb inbreed attention whores, stop posting your buff me threads in general section??

FFs, HA´s was OP as fuck, you had it comming.....

/End thread
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Ronin on February 23, 2014, 03:19:39 pm
When will you dumb inbreed attention whores, stop posting your buff me threads in general section??

FFs, HA´s where OP as fuck, you had it comming.....

/End thread
"were"
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Prpavi on February 23, 2014, 03:24:35 pm


FFs, HA´s was OP




No doubt, I even suggested some, but you seem to miss the point of the thread, I forgive you tho :*
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Miwiw on February 23, 2014, 03:29:33 pm
HA wasn't "op as fuck" for a long long time. That's just the hate speaking of you.

If there are more than some ranged or ranged cav players online and threatening your life, you (the average crpg player, typically melee without throwing or even a spear (so bumps cannot be avoided)) think the class itself is too strong.
HA is getting nerfed all the time and comparing HA today to HA 2 years ago, you quickly notice the class was nerfed a lot. And when I'm saying a lot, I really mean A LOT!
Not speaking of how HA was in native and in the beginning of crpg, but that's of course not how HA's want their own class to be however.

Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Zhyang on February 23, 2014, 03:52:12 pm
I dont think HA is Op ..Its just annoying as shit even if there are more than 5 HAs in the server..I think they nerf it to reduce the amount of HAs and frankly speaking I support that because they are annoying and "destroying " the fun
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Sniger on February 23, 2014, 03:58:10 pm
With the recent patches I found my HA to be completely useless.

good
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Riddaren on February 23, 2014, 04:02:25 pm
Why do yo u need to deal damage vs plated chargers?
Just focus on the unarmoured horses.
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Prinz_Karl on February 23, 2014, 04:04:59 pm
If it was me I would remove uncounterable kiting completely from a multiplayer game....

But prpavi you really can't complain about not being able to damage cav that isn't even near the speed of even attacking you, that's only fair in my opinion.
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: BattalGazi on February 23, 2014, 04:07:54 pm
HA's are always effective as a group, that's their natural strength. Eventhough you nerf them to their bones, putting a couple of HA's together will definitely inflict some "good damage". This "good damage" used to be individual kills before the nerf-train. Now it's generally shooting down other horses, bumping to help your mate kill his opponent, or stun the enemy. If that can satisfy your game session, then it is most of what you get nowadays.

However, I strongly suggest new players to avoid being a HA as it is useless to invest your time. As we have a player community that is only concerned about getting easy kills, and not being bothered by other classes, and a dev team that supports this crowd, HA has been made the least enjoyable and satisfactory, and with one of the highest  upkeep class in this game.



Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Prpavi on February 23, 2014, 04:09:03 pm
Why do yo u need to deal damage vs plated chargers?
Just focus on the unarmoured horses.

I understand not everyting can counter everything, but at level this high and also high equipement it just sucks being semi useless and basically a drag on the team, i used to help out now I can just take peasants out.
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Leesin on February 23, 2014, 04:09:18 pm
I stopped playing HA because I got bored of it, I did renew my fun for a while before I stoppes by making a HA/1h hybrid, which I actually didnt to bad with, but even that got boring because its massively gimped, useless for strat and just still a huge gold drain. HA is without a doubt the most nerfed build in the game, anyone sitting here saying they were OP are most likely shiedless infantry with no ranged or cavalry support. I think some people forget this is a team game.
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Sniger on February 23, 2014, 04:11:40 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


im sorry. but you may have forgotten that once i promised you that when HAs were nerfed id be on forum collecting every single tear. here i am.
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: San on February 23, 2014, 04:16:04 pm
HA vs. plated charger is quite an extreme example, isn't it?

The ranged soak/reduce didn't really affect your normal damage at all, maybe a point less damage, but the speed bonus change sure did. You'll have to use high speed shots and bumps to maintain great damage. HA still dealt good damage to my barded warhorse on my cav alt when I played yesterday.
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Prpavi on February 23, 2014, 04:21:13 pm
HA vs. plated charger is quite an extreme example, isn't it?


yes, it's only an example how a high level build can't do anything against another player, don't think any other class with this level can say the same. What I'm trying to say, if you need to be lvl 33/34 to be semi effective as a HA, it's not really worth it now is it?
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: BlueKnight on February 23, 2014, 04:32:57 pm
yes, it's only an example how a high level build can't do anything against another player, don't think any other class with this level can say the same. What I'm trying to say, if you need to be lvl 33/34 to be semi effective as a HA, it's not really worth it now is it?
It applies to archers in general, doesn't matter if mounted or ground ones. Mounted need additional points for Horse archery and riding and ground archers need their athletics and PS (yes, PowerStrike seems useful for them from time to time).

Xbowmen and melee ain't that affected by the lvl difference and I don't know anything about throwers. For sure high level helps throwing-melee hybrids but I'm not sure about pure throwers.
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on February 23, 2014, 04:33:21 pm
yes, it's only an example how a high level build can't do anything against another player, don't think any other class with this level can say the same. What I'm trying to say, if you need to be lvl 33/34 to be semi effective as a HA, it's not really worth it now is it?

But a lvl 34 polearmer/1h/2h can do something against HA? Bullshit.
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: BattalGazi on February 23, 2014, 04:41:42 pm
But a lvl 34 polearmer/1h/2h can do something against HA? Bullshit.

I think that is the main idea behind all the nerfs right?
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Prpavi on February 23, 2014, 04:47:16 pm
guess it's adapt time again
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Prinz_Karl on February 23, 2014, 04:54:05 pm
yes, it's only an example how a high level build can't do anything against another player

Fuck you. :)
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Grumbs on February 23, 2014, 05:08:31 pm
Why should the most despised classes be strong anyway? Go spoil another game
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Apsod on February 23, 2014, 05:13:08 pm
Use Bodkins if you want to hurt Plated Chargers.
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: San on February 23, 2014, 05:22:04 pm
yes, it's only an example how a high level build can't do anything against another player, don't think any other class with this level can say the same.

 :rolleyes:
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Torben on February 23, 2014, 05:52:25 pm
Prp,  if its any consolation,  you are a damn threat to any medium cav. 

Also,  my heavy lance needs a really good speed bonus to do mentionable damage to a plated charger as well,  however to inflict that damage,  I get in range of their crazy long swords with whom they can up to onehit me or my horse with some bonus.  also,  they can block down.  qq.

my point is:  they just are tough,  and thats their thing.  after all,  they are also an arrow and polearm magnet.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Prpavi on February 23, 2014, 05:52:56 pm
:rolleyes:


let me explain myself a bit better, I don't mind not killing everybody bit it's about winning rounds on Battle. A lvl 34 class can win   a round on flags even against HA, what I don't like is I'm no use to my team anymore. K/D is not my concern, winning and helping my team is.
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: BattalGazi on February 23, 2014, 06:03:42 pm
In the natural balance, HA was confronted by lancers. Whiners whined, and lancers get nerfed. Whiners whined, HA get nerfed. Yet, whiners are whining and HA is still getting nerfed unreasonably. I support Torben in this means. If you have never ever nerfed lancers, HA's would never be nerfed this way, and all the walking whiners would be much safer.

I still don't know why devs are still messing up with this multi-class game, while they have their own only melee game. Why wouldn't all the walking whiners go play that game instead if they are so upset by being chased by cav, or being shot by arrows, or both ...
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Grumbs on February 23, 2014, 06:16:01 pm
The concept of mobile ranged is the stupidest thing in the game, doesn't matter if you have cav countering its still a stupid idea in a melee game.

You have huge kiting ability and easy point and click fps mechanics. That needs to be balanced by making the classes weak so they are more like support players
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: San on February 23, 2014, 06:20:09 pm
I'm just confused about your point. You feel weak compared to heavily armoured opponents and horses, or against everything? I doubt my 5PS level 36 character can do much against a plated charger with my cut only weapon, too. Doing little damage against it with a build not meant for high damage is expected and it'd be odd to change that (+ you have options for hitting the rider/headshot). I do think that the headshot hurtbox on the horses are quite odd, though. You think you hit the head but you don't see any increased damage compared to a body shot sometimes.

There was a period on EU where it was left with ranged armour penetration values that made HA/low damage ranged extremely weak against armour for longer than it should have been, but another change put the numbers back to how they were before. I think complaints during that time was valid, but currently, the only recent nerfs to HA are the speed bonus and the ranged stagger tweaks.
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: buba on February 23, 2014, 06:56:42 pm
Mount and blade was designed around the idea of having a different classes countering each other.
Paper rock scissor wise.

1/3 of the following groups, ranged, inf and cav,
with each having there cons and pro's.

Melee although being the most defining feature of Mount and blade, was not the only feature.
Many said this before, and ill say it again; its called MOUNT and blade.
Not melee and everyone else go fuck of and blade.

Not saying the balance was perfect before, far from it. But each class had its natural counter.
Yes even HA, if their enemy's where smart enough to group up and stick with their teams ranged.

Question: do we want to play a team play game? or a lone wolf i can do everything game?

     
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Tzar on February 23, 2014, 07:07:02 pm
or a lone wolf i can do everything game?

   

That´s pretty much how HA´s worked before the nerf.
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Grumbs on February 23, 2014, 07:20:53 pm
Mount and blade was designed around the idea of having a different classes countering each other.
Paper rock scissor wise.

1/3 of the following groups, ranged, inf and cav,
with each having there cons and pro's.

Melee although being the most defining feature of Mount and blade, was not the only feature.
Many said this before, and ill say it again; its called MOUNT and blade.
Not melee and everyone else go fuck of and blade.

Not saying the balance was perfect before, far from it. But each class had its natural counter.
Yes even HA, if their enemy's where smart enough to group up and stick with their teams ranged.

Question: do we want to play a team play game? or a lone wolf i can do everything game?

   

Its not rock, paper scissors and it shouldn't be. There is no hard counter to anything only soft counters.

If we had rock, paper scissors ranged wouldn't even have a melee weapon, instead they have 70% of the melee potential of a pure melee while still having the incredibly potent advantage of dealing damage by clicking on stuff from a safe distance. Xbowers have 99% of the potential of a pure melee in the melee area of the game

Everything can counter melee which is apparently fine, but it seems only ranged should counter ranged even when its ranged on horseback. Cav are not and have never been a HA/HX counter anyway, they will just get their horse shot
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: BattalGazi on February 23, 2014, 07:24:49 pm
Grumbs you are just talking nonsense and I believe you are just trolling. If you are so in love with melee, and have no idea about how the rest of the mechanics work, you are more than welcome to join the only melee servers. If they don't exist, bug the devs to make one. I think it's more fair to go that way instead of glorifying your own class over the others ...
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Grumbs on February 23, 2014, 07:29:36 pm
You wouldn't even have a game to play if it wasn't for the melee side of it. Noone would give two shits about M&B without these melee mechanics. The ranged is oldschool no skill stuff we've seen in so many games before.

Saying that though I have never said I want to play melee only. I want cav, ranged and melee BUT the implementation of the ranged mechanics is so far behind melee its like having two games in one. If clicking on guys from a distance had half the depth of melee I wouldn't have a problem.

The issue I have is how damn shallow it is and on top of that how you can deal damage with zero risk vs reward. That and how entitled people seem to be, to think that simply by playing a class it should get decent damage and kills regardless of what playing the class entails
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: buba on February 23, 2014, 07:43:40 pm
That´s pretty much how HA´s worked before the nerf.

No,

HA worked before because we found a way to make our class work best.
And thats to pick of lone wolfs, or even groups of melee without ranged support.

If your melee and run off killing shit, not minding your own ranged.
You got shot by us.

Dont tell me HA where or are lone wolfs, we need out teams to get our kills or dmg.
We are opportunistic, by nature and need,  we need our team, always did.

tactics or sticking in a group, defend your ranged.

Ps: and believe it or not, but to be a good HA, actually takes skill.... no really, im not kidding. its kinda hard. like really hard.
 
Tzar, your quete says it all:
I've never played a server where people split up as much or as often as on EU1.  No wonder range is having a field day.

That works for HA/HX too, if people are to single minded to do the same thing over and over again, ofc ill or any other mounted ranged will abuse the fuck out of it.
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Grumbs on February 23, 2014, 07:48:32 pm
Love how "tactics" only ever applies to melee. How about you HA band together and tactically kill melee/cav? Oh no you want to ride around by yourself clicking on guys that can't damage you

Get a shield and tactics adapt etc
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: buba on February 23, 2014, 07:57:48 pm
Completly ignoring your own quote...

You still do not understand the reason why HA works is because the lack of tactics of all the classes, not only melee.
The only reason why HA can run around getting kills is because everyone else doesn't think about tactics.

Believe me, a group of archers will make short work of even a group of HA.

There needs to be a extreem class like HA to create tactics in a game, do you understand what im saying?
Imagine a CPRG with out ranged cav, or any cav whats so ever.
What would there be left? again the game is called MOUNT and blade.

Inf and ground ranged needs to group to counter that.
Are you playing the same game I am?
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Grumbs on February 23, 2014, 08:11:03 pm
No one has any respect for a HA/HX player because the mechanics are like playing a single player game. Unlimited kiting and damage by clicking stuff from a distance is the antithesis of what this game is all about

A group of archers will kill a lone HA? Woopdie-do. A single ranged character can shit on a HA/HX/melee/cav too, its not required to band together to do that as ranged. Ranged don't need to use teamwork while melee have to

The only class that is expected to use teamwork and tactics is melee, a class who cannot counter a HA/HX who has half a brain. Why the hell don't HA/HX need to use teamwork and tactics?

Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: buba on February 23, 2014, 08:20:22 pm
' Believe me, a group of archers will make short work of even a group of HA'

Are you guys even reading what i'm writing?
I said a group of HA?!

Seriously, also this bitching and moaning about HA not needing to work together and only melee needs to is simply not true.
I started playing CRPG two or three years ago and even then melee usually decided the outcome of any battle.

Unlimited kiting ability? ha! i wish i had that. But no. aware raged can pick of my horse from miles away.... 

   
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Grumbs on February 23, 2014, 08:23:52 pm
The reason melee can have such an impact on a battle is the amount of people who play melee. Its a melee game yet people like you try to turn it into a shitty FPS with shallow fps mechanics. Why spoil the only decent melee game in existence when there are so many shitty FPS games to play?
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: buba on February 23, 2014, 08:34:29 pm
Im not, Grumbs.

I would like to see a game thats balanced around all the classes.
All of the 1/3 like i said before. Inf, ranged and cav.

The way it is now, i and many like me feel HA is overly nerfed for the melee group playing this game.
Because the majority is melee.

And I do not agree with your sentiment of HA being point and click easy FPS.
We all want to play CPRG because of the versatile way classes are, can we please have a well balanced game thats aims to please all classes and being based on team play? and not one class can win all?
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Ronin on February 23, 2014, 08:43:06 pm
In an ideal scenario:
A Horse Archer has worse accuracy, more vulnerability to projectiles (can be countered by avoiding frontal engagements to enemy archers) and less shooting power.
In exchange it gains mobility and much better protection against melee (by avoiding them).

In Eu_1, there is also:
A Horse Archer is less effected by idiotic teammates. Such as friendly infantry who doesn't give a crap about defending friendly archers or teammates getting in front of archers just when the archer is about to release an arrow, which fucks up all the shooting period etc.

Overall, Horse Archers can do better by themselves but they have less offensive power to effect the situation as well. In that sense, they are still very dependant upon their team maybe even more than most of the classes. Melee decides the outcome of the battle, because infantry tends to kill/die faster in a massed melee very quickly. I'm not saying this in the sense that melee classes are actually stronger, I mean that they tend to clash and neutralise each other the fastest. Many rounds of 30 vs 30, become quickly 10-20 vs 10-20. If it becomes 10 vs 20, there is little a Horse Archer can do to save the situation. Of course there is very little anyone can do to change the tides at this point, but Horse Archers have even lesser capabilities of doing it somehow, because of the lesser damage output. An infantry player can just contribute greatly in the first main melee and still take 5 players by itself if he is very very skilled and sufficiently equipped with looms/levels.

All in all, I believe infantry players that are claiming their class is underpowered are not very good at melee skills themselves. They simply have less effect on the outcome of battles as they are avarage players, maybe? Claiming that Archer have the 70% melee power of an infantry and Crossbowman have 99% of an infantry just proves that in this example.

This game is all about knowing where you, your teammates and your opposition can be useful, and then using this knowledge to your advantage.
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Grumbs on February 23, 2014, 08:55:21 pm
The issue I have is how damn shallow it is and on top of that how you can deal damage with zero risk vs reward. That and how entitled people seem to be, to think that simply by playing a class it should get decent damage and kills regardless of what playing the class entails

Going back to this - just because a class exists it doesn't mean it should be "balanced" in terms of effectiveness. It depends what is entailed, how fun the game is made by making it decent by itself etc

Only HA/HX want effective HA/HX. As a melee player I want strong cav, all melee to be decent and ranged to be useful (but not with shallow fps mechanics like now)

Also it makes me laugh how HA/HX seem to think that being effective means being able to play solo and everyone else has to use teamwork/tactics when these are the guys that have the least risk in the game
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: BattalGazi on February 23, 2014, 09:28:47 pm
I suggest you to make an alt char as HA and play with it for a while. You will understand that it's not that easy. I'm pretty sure you will be hunted down by other HA, or some thrower or an archer while you are heading for an "easy-one-click-kill"
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Grumbs on February 23, 2014, 09:32:01 pm
As I should be. If I play lone runner melee I expect to get shat on, why shouldn't HA? They never ever play as a team and yet they click on guys for kills in safety
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: BattalGazi on February 23, 2014, 09:37:07 pm
May I take this opportunity to give an ad for GK?  :D

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Prpavi on February 23, 2014, 09:44:18 pm
I'm just confused about your point. You feel weak compared to heavily armoured opponents and horses, or against everything? I doubt my 5PS level 36 character can do much against a plated charger with my cut only weapon, too. Doing little damage against it with a build not meant for high damage is expected and it'd be odd to change that (+ you have options for hitting the rider/headshot). I do think that the headshot hurtbox on the horses are quite odd, though. You think you hit the head but you don't see any increased damage compared to a body shot sometimes.

There was a period on EU where it was left with ranged armour penetration values that made HA/low damage ranged extremely weak against armour for longer than it should have been, but another change put the numbers back to how they were before. I think complaints during that time was valid, but currently, the only recent nerfs to HA are the speed bonus and the ranged stagger tweaks.

I feel weaker overall, I was useless against heavily armored tagets before too, but atleast I could deal some damage unlike now. I base that on points earned.
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: the real god emperor on February 23, 2014, 10:05:25 pm
How about trying out the Horn bow and bodkins?
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Grumbs on February 23, 2014, 10:07:25 pm
Just out of interest, if there is 1 HA on a team, 50 melee, 40 ranged and 20 cav how should the points be spread out in your opinion? Should 1 HA be able to be mid, top, what? Is it fair that 1 player has such an impact on everyone else's enjoyment of the game?
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Prpavi on February 23, 2014, 10:10:10 pm
I always engage cav first and you don't even see my impact on the battle till late round if I survive, so you don't even see or know what impact I have on my team, for all you know I used to take down cav so you wouldn't be backsatabbed thus enhancing your "enjoyment".

Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Grumbs on February 23, 2014, 10:15:05 pm
I'd rather you didn't do jack shit to cav if it means playing the way you do. I'll kill them myself with my melee team mates or at least die to someone who actually has to get involved in the combat

I just don't get how you can think its OK to ride around clicking on guys to deal damage, without there being a direct immediate counter. How can you have fun doing that? Such a cowardly and unsporting way to play. If you try to click on guys with any other class you at least have to think they might counter you with a manual block (well except as xbow/archer). Against a HA/HX even shields are a joke since they can just get behind and attack from blind spots where the shields don't even do anything
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: the real god emperor on February 23, 2014, 10:21:47 pm

I just don't get how you can think its OK to ride around clicking on guys to deal damage

HA is ACTUALLY pretty hard.
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Grumbs on February 23, 2014, 10:25:25 pm
HA is ACTUALLY pretty hard.

The issue is HA/HX want to balance the game based on them soloing, while the thought of melee soloing is met with "get a shield, adapt teamwork tactics etc". Its assumed that melee players will play as a group together to take down threats while ranged/ha don't

I have no interest in shooting guys that don't shoot back anyway. I will play a single player game for that. If I want to play a regular FPS games there are way better games to get good at
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Sniger on February 23, 2014, 10:27:27 pm
You wouldn't even have a game to play if it wasn't for the melee side of it. Noone would give two shits about M&B without these melee mechanics. The ranged is oldschool no skill stuff we've seen in so many games before.

Saying that though I have never said I want to play melee only. I want cav, ranged and melee BUT the implementation of the ranged mechanics is so far behind melee its like having two games in one. If clicking on guys from a distance had half the depth of melee I wouldn't have a problem.

The issue I have is how damn shallow it is and on top of that how you can deal damage with zero risk vs reward. That and how entitled people seem to be, to think that simply by playing a class it should get decent damage and kills regardless of what playing the class entails

its been a while since but arent you the guy with an xbow grumbs buddy? :)

HA is ACTUALLY pretty hard.

yeah the same way world of tanks and mechwarrior is hard
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: MountedRhader on February 23, 2014, 10:28:26 pm
Alright then. Play less. The mass of cRPG hates horse archers with a burning passion, so indeed it would be better for us.

Has to be only you then. I get damaged by HA regularly. My +3 Plated Charger is quite durable against HA, but not immune.

I can relate, my prestigious +3 champion panzercharger shouldn't be cut down by some smug little HA bastard's arrows

Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: San on February 24, 2014, 05:17:48 am
I feel weaker overall, I was useless against heavily armored tagets before too, but atleast I could deal some damage unlike now. I base that on points earned.

Points from horses got cut by half since the recent patch. Is it the same for human targets?
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: bavvoz on February 24, 2014, 07:50:56 am
Horse archers invaded eu1 before xmas and the result of that was 20 ppl on primetime.
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: BlueKnight on February 24, 2014, 08:03:51 am
Horse archers invaded eu1 before xmas and the result of that was 20 ppl on primetime.
We could argue if HA was the most significant reason :P. Also it's pretty easy to pew any kind of horsemen as a ground-ranged unit, so blame your ranged for not pewing HAs, or blame yourself if you didn't give your ranged enough protection from infantry/cav and they had to take care about themselves and therefore couldn't devote to shooting@HAs.
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Prpavi on February 24, 2014, 08:16:57 am
Points from horses got cut by half since the recent patch. Is it the same for human targets?

Will check, I only focused on cav points since that is my main concern, will test out later today on medium/light targets
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: bavvoz on February 24, 2014, 08:39:13 am
We could argue if HA was the most significant reason :P. Also it's pretty easy to pew any kind of horsemen as a ground-ranged unit, so blame your ranged for not pewing HAs, or blame yourself if you didn't give your ranged enough protection from infantry/cav and they had to take care about themselves and therefore couldn't devote to shooting@HAs.

Touche! Ofc ur right in a way. I have no proof that was the main reason. But numbers dropped and raised again in line with the number of horse ranged. And alot of ppl said they refused to set foot on eu1 coz of ranged cav.
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Sniger on February 24, 2014, 10:41:29 am
I feel weaker overall

great!
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: BlueKnight on February 24, 2014, 11:06:17 am
Touche! Ofc ur right in a way. I have no proof that was the main reason. But numbers dropped and raised again in line with the number of horse ranged. And alot of ppl said they refused to set foot on eu1 coz of ranged cav.

(click to show/hide)

I was about to quit anyay, so I went suicidal-reporter to the open just to take this screenie.

With 1920x1080 on my screen and after a thorough examination I counted 10 obvious horse-ranged and 2 more that look like horse ranged guys but I'm not sure if they are. Those 2 guys that were the closest to me in this picture kept pew-pewing me while I was leaving.

Such horse-ranged combo happens very rarely but when it does, it's gay++...

It was on the 12th of January.

I know that the amount of ranged cav was insane, but that's because ranged can help each other better than infantry and what is more, if they are aware riders, horses make them invulnerable to anything but to other ranged and flags  :? What I'm trying to say is already known and nerfing unit's possibilities doesn't necessarily hit the spot, which is the effectiveness of a group of horse-ranged. Same with melee-cavs. When there is too many of them around, most players just lose their awarness and get backstabbed. When it comes to melee-cav unit it looks like this: if you are aware of an enemy horseman, he's just a riding group of juicy points but when you aren't aware of him he's a deadly guy.

Also people whine about ranged all years, always... I am among them  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Sniger on February 24, 2014, 11:36:16 am
range, both cav and inf, is a nessesary evil in battle :C

but as someone said before (BK?) the melee gameplay is the unique part in this game and personally i think every single ranged class spoils the gameplay.

my first about 6 months crpg was as an archer. then i respec melee havent changed since despite the amount of range. melee gameplay simply too great comparred to range.

range you need to open your eyes and realize! :)
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: BattalGazi on February 24, 2014, 12:02:28 pm
Here is another perspective. I hear about all the infantry here whining how annoying HAs and cavs are on the open field maps. Have you seen any HA whining how terrible city/village maps are?

As an infantry, you can demonstrate your skills on any type of map, but HA's and most cav can only play on open field maps. Especially for dedicated HAs like myself, where being dismounted is hell, we just wait for a good cav map to come and actually enjoy the game. Have you seen us whining anywhere on the forums: "infantry is so op in city maps, make the streets larger so we can ride" or "infantry is catching us while we are dismounted, that is so gay, nerf their speed" Your arguments for HA on open fields are as invalid as these, and asking for nerf just because of that makes it even more unsporty (if ever this word exists). You are just being spoiled and disrespectful when you want to have it all only for yourselves. This game has multiple classes, and opportunities for all.

By the way, for those who believe HAs are gay and coward and immortal, how do you think we get killed on maps? Because with respect to your arguments, we are just running wild, away from any type of danger, shooting at any object with no possible counter mechanism. I would be very happy if you share that tip with me as I haven't found it since I started playing as HA.
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Prpavi on February 24, 2014, 06:16:46 pm
Checked, as far as I can see I deal less damage to infantry too, but significantly less to armored horses, basically you are pusing me to hunt low armored infantry and cav, not sure the playerbase will appreciate that
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: PsychoTwins on February 24, 2014, 06:49:50 pm
Well that basically means that higher tier armor actually helps now against ranged, which im sure the playerbase will the happy about.
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Prpavi on February 24, 2014, 07:04:53 pm
A Knight is finally a Knight!

Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Grumbs on February 25, 2014, 02:34:06 pm
Well that basically means that higher tier armor actually helps now against ranged, which im sure the playerbase will the happy about.

Not many players can run around with 120+ HP and have decent armour so I don't know if its just an issue of buffed armour (which is quite insignificant as a foot soldier since you don't have the speed of a horse..medium armour is still better)

If heavy horses are too tanky then the solution is to tweak their stats a bit, which will actually help to counter these obnoxious HA's since riding around on a tank while shooting players has been an issue for a while.

I'd make the heavier horses cheaper but reduce the tankiness while possibly increasing other stats
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Prpavi on February 25, 2014, 03:03:46 pm
Arbalest still takes a third or even 50% of my Champion Eastern Warhorse depending on the area of the hit, Longbow and Bodkins also hurt as hell, so horses aren't too tanky, nice try though
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: buba on February 25, 2014, 05:20:23 pm
And that's actually a good thing to mention, people seem to keep missing the point that as  HA, your a big ass target any decent ranged can hit and dmg a lot from a big distance.

Honestly, our counter is other ranged. Im too afraid to even attack one ground bowmen. Because one good hit on the head of my horse means bye bye horse, and on ground im shit...

Oh btw, if you get 5 or so HA together will do well.
Just like if you get 5 or so ranged working together, or 5 or so melee.

So?
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Gurnisson on February 25, 2014, 06:20:06 pm
if you get 5 or so HA together will do well.
Just like if you get 5 or so ranged working together, or 5 or so melee.

So?

Well, 5 infantry has a hard time countering 5 ranged, and an impossible job against 5 HA.
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: buba on February 26, 2014, 03:01:38 pm
Well, 5 infantry has a hard time countering 5 ranged, and an impossible job against 5 HA.

Thats a good point, then again 5 HA cant counter 5 archers, nor 5 melee in a city map. hmm,
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Prpavi on February 26, 2014, 03:59:07 pm
Thats a good point, then again 5 HA cant counter 5 archers, nor 5 melee in a city map. hmm,

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Gurnisson on February 26, 2014, 04:00:08 pm
Thats a good point, then again 5 HA cant counter 5 archers, nor 5 melee in a city map. hmm,

Bullshit
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: buba on February 26, 2014, 09:18:01 pm
Bullshit

Great argument, well put. Amazingly insightful.

To be completely honest, I do not give a damn about this anymore.
Ive nearly stopped playing CRPG after two years of having fun with it.

I am still surprised however people seem to think HA/HX have no counter what so ever and can roam the map always kitting poor melee around.
Our mobility does certainly have advantages, but the sacrifices made especially for HA is quite big.
No PS, No playing city maps, no seige, no DTV (well you can but your not going to contribute to the team much) and on foot your shit.
And, very high upkeep cost.

Ah but why do i try, you guys just want to bitch and moan on a class that shot you in the face once, completely by luck i might add, since our aim is not that good from horse back.
And then gallops around the map in semi freedom until the rounds end, or a ground ranged shoots him down.

 


 
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Gurnisson on February 26, 2014, 10:56:10 pm
I'm not whining about them, I just call you out on the bullshit. Even on quite urban maps there wasn't any problem being top score and killing many enemies, even without support from other HA/HX on your team.

Previously had a lvl 32 HX and I have a lvl 31 HA character now.
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: LordRichrich on March 06, 2014, 01:53:45 am
inf melee - high damage output, high hit rate, high risk
ground ranged - slightly lower damage output, much lower hit rate, low risk
melee horse - high damage out put, lower hit rate than inf melee but higher than ground ranged, medium risk
horse ranged - lowest damage output, lower hit rate than ground ranged, lowest risk

Think about it, 1 horse archer can fuck up a cavalry ARMY, purely because they can't catch you and you can snipe their horses out with impunity. You can ride around melee guys, bumping anyone with a shield. Oh what's that your eastern warhorse isn't tanky? I call bullshit, you're just riding into projectiles instead of away from them. Destriers are tanky enough against range if you don't run at them head first. I really doubt you do THAT much less damage now Pp, considering what mechanic changes actually happened (foot archery still deals damage fine). So you can't shoot plate horses and infantry to death quite so fast anymore? GOOD, when I'm playing as my archer I'm not going to target B0nk or Butan or Squall or Falcom or Friedturtle or Bobby or BillyBaddAss cos I know I'll be inneffectual against them, this doesn't make me useless as you seem to profess, I shoot other ranged but ok I get you're too scared to do that. So shoot the support guys, shoot the long spear users in mail, shoot the 2h kuyak my old friends, shoot panos, shoot anyone up to coat of plates if you've bodkins or up to brigandine with cut arrows. You shouldn't expect to be dropping the enemy heavy hitters like flies, pick off the slightly weaker guys, then when melee hits, instead of 2 vs 2 with the enemy tank at 2/3 health, it'll be 2 vs 1 against the tank, greatly improving the odds.

You add Bubba have said your class is oppurtunistic etc etc etc, but you can't see how simple that is? Leave targetting the heavies to xbows and longbows and melee, disrupt the lighter infantry, and hell when you say you can only hurt guys in light gear, that's still up to around the 12k mark. Bump in melee a bit more, get involved, pick up a couch lance when you're ineffective against the enemy armour and aim the tip at their head, adapt in a way that makes you useful, stop trying to adapt in a way that you can still hurt heavies.
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Prpavi on March 07, 2014, 10:50:41 am
Eastern Warhorse is tanky but i am not  :wink: can't have lot's of armor on me because I won't be able to hit anyone and my repairs will go sky high. using lighter horse makes no sense.

I am trying to adapt, I put 3 points in PS to pick up a lance or ACS and try to hurt somebody, but I'm still far from usefull to my team.

There are maps I can do well on but mostly I drag around 10/15 points per round which is really funny considering my level and equipement. ofc I'm barely playing lately so I just might be out of form.
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Memento_Mori on March 07, 2014, 03:36:00 pm
Well, 5 infantry has a hard time countering 5 ranged, and an impossible job against 5 HA.

Mm 5 infantry with  no ranged, no xbow, no throwing... Good ole' C-rpg builds... Better complain that we can't counter something even though we have 100% free choice as to how we make our builds.

5 infantry with shields + throwing and those HA will have to stay moving far away taking pot shots with their crap accuracy & shit damage, bam you as infantry have just contested Horse Archers.. Something no c-rpg player thought possible.

Also 5 HA on a open map is a pretty big target, on a tinier more urban map it's near impossible for all 5 to coordinate and attack the same targets.
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Murchad on March 07, 2014, 09:48:21 pm
I am having no problems with my HA. (only use bodkins now though)
15/30 build
I use nomad bow and horn bow. I use nomad when more ranged and thin skinned people are on and horn when more plated people are on server.

As for valor, I get valor more rounds than I don't, HA best valor farmers IMO.
I am level 35 so I can understand people with lower levels having a harder time
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 08, 2014, 04:16:50 am
Chase was running around as a HA scoring 15+ kills every map. Adapt your playstyles, dont shoot at plated horses, shoot riders, kill peasants and bump everything.
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Mr.K. on March 12, 2014, 11:24:41 am
Chase was running around as a HA scoring 15+ kills every map. Adapt your playstyles, dont shoot at plated horses, shoot riders, kill peasants and bump everything.

Has he tried it again or was that few months ago? Since then Horse archers have been nerfed heavily.

Imo still strong enough though.
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Chasey on March 14, 2014, 08:11:16 pm
Been playing it for the past few weeks, seems perfectly fine to me. Able to top the score consistently and get valour more often than not
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Osiris on March 15, 2014, 12:40:47 pm
Mm 5 infantry with  no ranged, no xbow, no throwing... Good ole' C-rpg builds... Better complain that we can't counter something even though we have 100% free choice as to how we make our builds.

5 infantry with shields + throwing and those HA will have to stay moving far away taking pot shots with their crap accuracy & shit damage, bam you as infantry have just contested Horse Archers.. Something no c-rpg player thought possible.

Also 5 HA on a open map is a pretty big target, on a tinier more urban map it's near impossible for all 5 to coordinate and attack the same targets.

ahh yes force all infantry into 1h/thrower builds :D seems a legit solution
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Overdriven on March 15, 2014, 04:52:57 pm
but as someone said before (BK?) the melee gameplay is the unique part in this game and personally i think every single ranged class spoils the gameplay.

No it isn't. I can't think of any other game where I get to ride around as a horse archer.
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Sniger on March 18, 2014, 10:35:31 am
No it isn't. I can't think of any other game where I get to ride around as a horse archer.

World of Tanks
MechWarrior
loads of other games

no its not horses. but its mounted pewpew. exactly the same gameplay. but i guess you dont like it cus everybody else incl. enemy is also mounted pewpew. you want to be one of the only ones playing mounted pewpew against a bunch of melees on foot, right? you prefer to to have an advantage over the other team, otherwise you dont think its fun.

Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Smoothrich on March 24, 2014, 10:31:58 pm
I have an idea. Could you make HA skill nerf your Riding skill stats somewhat?

This would represent the difficulty of controlling a horse while using a two handed ranged weapon. Higher HA reduces the riding penalty but have it always be present.

I've always considered melee cav to be a decent counter to ranged cav, something that most people don't even talk about. If you get swarmed by ranged cav, a melee cav is worthless, but if you get one isolated you can typically stay in his blindspot (back right area) and if he makes a mistake you will catch up to him and can 1 shot the rider or horse pretty easily.

Thing is this is very damn difficult with a decent player on an Arabian Warhorse, which is a lot of ranged cav players. They get 8+ riding (some HX do 10, which makes catching them impossible, and even difficult to hit as foot ranged.)

Giving a penalty to ranged player's on their horse's speed, maneuverability, etc would leave their strengths against infantry untouched, but make them more vulnerable to light and medium cavalry, which is already a (soft) counter.

tl;dr: Penalize the horse stats of a ranged cav player, to make light/medium cavalry a more effective counter.
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Rumblood on March 24, 2014, 11:09:14 pm
Thing is this is very damn difficult with a decent player on an Arabian Warhorse, which is a lot of ranged cav players. They get 8+ riding (some HX do 10, which makes catching them impossible, and even difficult to hit as foot ranged.)

The Arabian isn't the fastest horse and nothing prevents melee cavalry from getting the same riding as ranged cavalry. When ranged cavalry goes to those extremes, they lose a ton of damage (except for the HX who of course doesn't need to invest in a skill to do maximum damage)
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Ronin on March 25, 2014, 11:05:31 am
How many arrows it takes to kill a fully plated knight?
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Prpavi on March 25, 2014, 01:15:33 pm
from horseback? without bodkins you can shoot all day long  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Ronin on March 25, 2014, 03:38:59 pm
On horseback and with bodkins of course :wink:
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Prpavi on March 25, 2014, 04:21:34 pm
On horseback and with bodkins of course :wink:

I'm willing to give it a test

this also depends on the build and IF involved, so there might not be a clear answer

for example even before the HA nerf I remember shooting 20 arrows atleast at Tyrannosaurus (I believe it was him) end round, he has a full str/if build, wasn't shooting with Bodkins, I got the message in the chat: no dmg  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Rumblood on March 27, 2014, 01:13:40 am
from horseback? without bodkins you can shoot all day long  :mrgreen:

Just shoot them in the head.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: About Horse Archers
Post by: Thomek on March 28, 2014, 02:51:56 am
Idk.. I believe the bump mechanic to be insanely powerful, perhaps even more so than the arrows. Together with the arrows, together with a teammate, its devastating. It's like an extra attack that can attack at the same time as your main attack. That stuns the target to the ground.

Then you have bump-shoot, bump-slash with your backup 1h sword.. that you can also pick up. with speed bonus etc..

HA still a very very versatile class, and hard for any other classes to deal with. An xbower gets 1 shot off, then he can never reload. At a freely moving target.

All in all, HA is a class with extreme possibilities for creative play, and a good smart player should do well with it.

Thank god we don't have many good players playing the lamest classes.