Off Topic => General Off Topic => Topic started by: Nightmare798 on February 04, 2014, 05:24:56 pm
Title: Just how deadly is bow and arrow?
Post by: Nightmare798 on February 04, 2014, 05:24:56 pm
In movies, getting hit by arrows usually means swift death (usually does not mean always), despite the one being hit wearing armor.
My question is, were bow and arrow (excluding longbows) really such deadly weapons that instakilled anything they hit, or are they hollywood overrated?
Title: Re: Just how deadly is bow and arrow?
Post by: Miwiw on February 04, 2014, 05:28:55 pm
Would you survive getting an arrow in your eyes?
Title: Re: Just how deadly is bow and arrow?
Post by: pepejul on February 04, 2014, 05:30:14 pm
HE SAYS : "LIAR !!!!!"
Title: Re: Just how deadly is bow and arrow?
Post by: musketer on February 04, 2014, 05:41:24 pm
Here is the answer: http://www.isegoria.net/2011/08/longbow-vs-armor/ (http://www.isegoria.net/2011/08/longbow-vs-armor/)
His conclusion is this one:
Conclusion
Most soldiers on the battlefield would have been at risk from the longbow. The average archer would have had the tools to wound or kill most armour types. Even with the advent of coat of plates, the archer would have had an impact on an advancing army. Only the most expensive and well made plate armour wearers would have had an advantage. Although even with plate, I only tested the impacts to major protected areas. The joints and gaps would all still be vulnerable being mostly of maille until the 16th century. Without significant metal to withstand the energies of an arrow or excessive padding to spread out the force, arrows of the 1400’s would have been deadly.
Title: Re: Just how deadly is bow and arrow?
Post by: Leesin on February 04, 2014, 06:06:25 pm
Realistically I think that most people that died from being hit by an arrow did not die instantly, they most likely either bled out, were finished off by a melee weapon, or perhaps even died days after the battle due to infection etc.
Title: Re: Just how deadly is bow and arrow?
Post by: Nightmare798 on February 04, 2014, 07:43:44 pm
Here is the answer: http://www.isegoria.net/2011/08/longbow-vs-armor/ (http://www.isegoria.net/2011/08/longbow-vs-armor/)
His conclusion is this one:
Conclusion
Most soldiers on the battlefield would have been at risk from the longbow. The average archer would have had the tools to wound or kill most armour types. Even with the advent of coat of plates, the archer would have had an impact on an advancing army. Only the most expensive and well made plate armour wearers would have had an advantage. Although even with plate, I only tested the impacts to major protected areas. The joints and gaps would all still be vulnerable being mostly of maille until the 16th century. Without significant metal to withstand the energies of an arrow or excessive padding to spread out the force, arrows of the 1400’s would have been deadly.
I specifically stated excluding longbow, for it is one of strongest bow types ever made, and I already know that getting hit by longbow could be deadly regardless what armor the one being hit would wear.
Realistically I think that most people that died from being hit by an arrow did not die instantly, they most likely either bled out, were finished off by a melee weapon, or perhaps even died days after the battle due to infection etc.
That might be the case for those who were unarmored, or wore leather armor (as whole, not certain type). I am more interested about those who wore mail, scale and plate armor.
The point of the question is, that I have seen many situations in movies in which people wearing steel cuirass (along with other armor) were killed by one shot from a bow that certainly was not longbow, fired right in the middle of their chest, which I find hard to believe.
Title: Re: Just how deadly is bow and arrow?
Post by: Leesin on February 04, 2014, 08:22:32 pm
Well yeah thats Hollywood for ya, even at close range I doubt an arrow would penetrate a chest plate enough to instantly kill someone ( a heart shot for instance ).
Title: Re: Just how deadly is bow and arrow?
Post by: Latvian on February 04, 2014, 08:24:27 pm
well in movies if main hero takes arrow he keeps fighting but if some random bad guy gets shot it is one shot kill :)
Title: Re: Just how deadly is bow and arrow?
Post by: Nightmare798 on February 04, 2014, 08:28:22 pm
Well yeah thats Hollywood for ya, even at close range I doubt an arrow would penetrate a chest plate enough to instantly kill someone ( a heart shot for instance ).
So unless the person wearing plate armor would get hit by long bow (and similar kind of bows), or in weakspot (armpit, throat, eye) they would probably survive being hit by few arrows.
Title: Re: Just how deadly is bow and arrow?
Post by: Leesin on February 04, 2014, 09:42:29 pm
So unless the person wearing plate armor would get hit by long bow (and similar kind of bows), or in weakspot (armpit, throat, eye) they would probably survive being hit by few arrows.
I don't think any bow whether it's a Long Bow or not is going to instantly kill someone in plate armour if the arrows hit the chest plate centre like in the movies, not only do they wear plate armour they have different kinds of protective layers underneath, meaning if the arrow does manage to penetrates the chest plate, the arrow would have lost so much energy that the layers underneath will absorb the rest of the lethal force.
Do I think someone could survive a few arrows? yes of course, if they're armoured properly and the arrows don't penetrate and hit a vital organ, flesh wounds, fractures and bruises are all survivable so long as you don't get a bad infection. Multiple arrows could cause someone to die via them being to wounded to fight or even move properly, leaving them to be finished off with a nasty weapon.
These plate armours and such ended the golden age of the bow for a reason. The problem is you're also referring to Hollywood, where you see knights wearing full plate armour before full plate even existed.
Title: Re: Just how deadly is bow and arrow?
Post by: Nightmare798 on February 04, 2014, 09:45:03 pm
I don't think any bow whether it's a Long Bow or not is going to instantly kill someone in plate armour if the arrows hit the chest plate centre like in the movies, not only do they wear plate armour they have different kinds of protective layers underneath, meaning if the arrow does manage to penetrates the chest plate, the arrow would have lost so much energy that the layers underneath will absorb the rest of the lethal force. Do I think someone could survive a few arrows? yes of course, if they're armoured properly and the arrows don't penetrate and hit a vital organ, flesh wounds, fractures and bruises are all survivable so long as you don't get a bad infection.
These plate armours and such ended the golden age of the bow for a reason. The problem is you're also referring to Hollywood, where you see knights wearing full plate armour before full plate even existed.
Thanks for making it clear to me, I think I get the idea of how much is bow effective against full plate.
Title: Re: Just how deadly is bow and arrow?
Post by: engurrand on February 04, 2014, 10:00:57 pm
My buddy got shot with a compound bow one time... in the leg..
It was a compound bow, with a broad head tip..
Let me just say that the penetration and slicing act was not the only "force" at work.
It was like... an explosion.
Title: Re: Just how deadly is bow and arrow?
Post by: Fredom on February 04, 2014, 10:08:16 pm
In movies, getting hit by arrows usually means swift death (usually does not mean always), despite the one being hit wearing armor.
My question is, were bow and arrow (excluding longbows) really such deadly weapons that instakilled anything they hit, or are they hollywood overrated?
They just overrated arrows and bows a little bit. They really have been deadly weapons which can take out a whole unit of e.g. Spearmen. Well deadly, yes! I think most of us (all) would not survive an arrow in our chest or stomach or especially in our head. Wearing an armor reduces the speed it is coming into your body so also reduces the damage you take and sometimes they really can save your life. But I would not say Hollywood totally overrated them.
Title: Re: Just how deadly is bow and arrow?
Post by: Rumblood on February 05, 2014, 12:14:50 am
In movies, getting hit by arrows usually means swift death (usually does not mean always), despite the one being hit wearing armor.
My question is, were bow and arrow (excluding longbows) really such deadly weapons that instakilled anything they hit, or are they hollywood overrated?
Let me shove a long shaft of wood into your gut and see if you don't pass out right away, then die of internal bleeding, or sepsis. Does hollywood exaggerate how quickly you would die? Sure. But whether or not you would die? If it is in your thorax or abdomen, I don't think it is exaggerated at all if any organ is penetrated and without modern medicine you are all but certain of dying.
The most complete and detailed account of arrow wounds and treatments is Dr. Joseph Howland Bill’s “Notes on Arrow Wounds,” which is considered the “definitive work on American arrow wounds.”[1] Bill was originally from Philadelphia and attended Jefferson Medical College. After graduation he joined the U.S. Army, was commissioned 1st Lieutenant, and in 1860 was assigned to Fort Defiance, New Mexico. There he wrote his 22-page essay, “Notes on Arrow Wounds,” published in the American Journal of Medical Sciences, 1862. Bill states arrows inflict wounds “with a fatality greater than that produced by any other weapons — particularly when surgical assistance cannot be obtained.”[3] Unlike a gunshot wound, the arrowhead must be located and extracted. Arrowheads were rough and sharp. No tissue around the arrowhead could heal and in the body’s attempt to rid itself of the foreign object infection would rage forming an abscess. Every time the victim moved the arrowhead’s rough edges would inflame and aggravate the injury and eventually lead to a fatal infection or amputation.[10] In contrast a 18th century bullet did not have the sharp edges and could become encysted in tissue or encased in bone and safely remain in the body.
Title: Re: Just how deadly is bow and arrow?
Post by: Osiris on February 05, 2014, 12:23:42 am
For pitched battles they also stuck the arrows into the ground so you are getting shit, mud and whatever else going deep into the wounds.
Title: Re: Just how deadly is bow and arrow?
Post by: Nightmare798 on February 05, 2014, 01:16:11 am
Let me shove a long shaft of wood into your gut and see if you don't pass out right away, then die of internal bleeding, or sepsis. Does hollywood exaggerate how quickly you would die? Sure. But whether or not you would die? If it is in your thorax or abdomen, I don't think it is exaggerated at all if any organ is penetrated and without modern medicine you are all but certain of dying.
We are talking about mail, scale and plate armor here. I am sure that getting hit by an arrow is fatal while wearing nothing but leather armor, but I couldnt believe the soldiers in medieval movies getting bagged by one arrow while being shot into chest wearing cuirass.
Besides, I have heard of a man that survived getting shot 9 times by pistol (bullets did not hit any organ or anything vital though), and you surely know what effect does a bullet have on human body, which brings up an important question: what is deadlier, bullet or an arrow?
Depends if the arrowhead is fully in your body, if it is, it is nonsense to try to pull it out, as the hooks on the back of the arrow point will open up the wound and make it much worse.
Title: Re: Just how deadly is bow and arrow?
Post by: Xant on February 05, 2014, 02:26:11 am
Besides, I have heard of a man that survived getting shot 9 times by pistol (bullets did not hit any organ or anything vital though), and you surely know what effect does a bullet have on human body, which brings up an important question: what is deadlier, bullet or an arrow?
Arrows are "a little" bigger than bullets. Arrowheads are also much nastier than most bullets, causing infections. Because of the design of arrows, pulling it out will also cause more damage.
And most importantly, was that man shot with a pistol 9 times in the medieval times? Was he operated on by a team of surgeons?
Title: Re: Just how deadly is bow and arrow?
Post by: Prinz_Karl on February 05, 2014, 03:07:49 am
I have the feeling that some people have the game related few that you get shot few times and then die. Actually I think if you were hit in action on a battlefield by an arrow you were disabled (if it wasn't a fleshwound), meaning an arrow in the leg which might not be deadly (at least the immediate body damage) you would certainly not continue to fight. So I think the probability of getting shot few times is low.
And of course the damage is depending on the armor and strength of the bow and where you were hit. There were armors that could withstand deadly penetration from bodkin arrows of longbows (chainmail with thick padding). On the other hand bows that were very strong and used bodkin arrows could also penetrate plate armor and then kill the wearer with one shot. It's all a question of how strong the bow was and what kind of arrow type was used and how efficient the armor was against it.
Title: Re: Just how deadly is bow and arrow?
Post by: Nightmare798 on February 05, 2014, 11:16:08 am
I have the feeling that some people have the game related few that you get shot few times and then die. Actually I think if you were hit in action on a battlefield by an arrow you were disabled (if it wasn't a fleshwound), meaning an arrow in the leg which might not be deadly (at least the immediate body damage) you would certainly not continue to fight. So I think the probability of getting shot few times is low.
And of course the damage is depending on the armor and strength of the bow and where you were hit. There were armors that could withstand deadly penetration from bodkin arrows of longbows (chainmail with thick padding). On the other hand bows that were very strong and used bodkin arrows could also penetrate plate armor and then kill the wearer with one shot. It's all a question of how strong the bow was and what kind of arrow type was used and how efficient the armor was against it.
I think that about sums it up.
Title: Re: Just how deadly is bow and arrow?
Post by: Nightmare798 on February 05, 2014, 11:21:26 am
Arrows are "a little" bigger than bullets. Arrowheads are also much nastier than most bullets, causing infections. Because of the design of arrows, pulling it out will also cause more damage.
And most importantly, was that man shot with a pistol 9 times in the medieval times? Was he operated on by a team of surgeons?
True. But the point was that he survived long enough to stay alive until the help arrived. Of course it would be impossible for him to survive without modern medicine.
On the arrow vs bullet, it is true that arrowheads are larger and can carry infection into the wound, however, their velocity and energy upon being fired is also much lower than those of a bullet.
EDIT: Damn, double posted.
Title: Re: Just how deadly is bow and arrow?
Post by: Osiris on February 05, 2014, 11:33:45 am
velocity doesn't mean that much. A small object moving very fast wont do loads more damage to you than a larger object moving pretty fast. An arrow will still go deep into you if not stick out the other side in some points.
Title: Re: Just how deadly is bow and arrow?
Post by: SirCymro_Crusader on February 05, 2014, 03:18:11 pm
Depends what arrowhead you are using.
Barbed arrows easily sliced into flesh however when you pull them out you end up tearing large chunks of flesh with it, the only way to remove a barbed was to cut round it or push it through. Barbed arrows were also used to target horses, as once embedded the horse's movement would cause the arrows to tear the flesh and cause internal bleeding.
Bodkin arrows made of steel were what were used to cause major damage, they were able to pierce plate (not Milanese or other expensive plate, (but they could still pierce in some cases)) and the force of the arrow hitting you could send you tumbling backwards (even if it didn't pierce your flesh), or knock you to the floor. Then if you get knocked down you are either gonna get trampled by your own troops or the hooves of your allied cavalry. Either way, you are fucked.
As to bow types, it depends on where you lived. Eastern style bows were typically designed to be shot from horseback and to target lightly armoured infantry/cavalry as plate armour wasn't widely used in the eastern areas, instead boiled leather, furs, chain maille was in abundance. Whereas in Medieval Europe, plate was seen more as stature. - expensive plate shows off wealth - so longbows and crossbows were used to penetrate this mail.
^Just a quick overview
Title: Re: Just how deadly is bow and arrow?
Post by: pepejul on February 05, 2014, 03:30:34 pm
Today in Crpg I was wearing my amazing +3 heraldic mail with my 7 IF and 21 str hero...;
I saw a pilgrim archer (StuLLe) at 200 meters right in fornt of me with a ridiculous nomad or rus bow (the dark brown one) and a magical lightspeed arrow just poc on me and I 100% totally full HP die instantly (arrows was in my right arm)....
Can you explain how it is possible ?
thanks
love
PEPE
Title: Re: Just how deadly is bow and arrow?
Post by: Rumblood on February 05, 2014, 04:35:50 pm
I have the feeling that some people have the game related few that you get shot few times and then die. Actually I think if you were hit in action on a battlefield by an arrow you were disabled (if it wasn't a fleshwound), meaning an arrow in the leg which might not be deadly (at least the immediate body damage) you would certainly not continue to fight. So I think the probability of getting shot few times is low.
Quote
Dr. Bill estimates an “expert bowman can easily discharge six arrows per minute.”[8] In one of Dr. Bill’s cases three soldiers suffered a total of 42 arrow wounds between them. Although this number of wounds was extreme, Bill states he rarely saw someone with a single arrow wound.[9]
Besides, I have heard of a man that survived getting shot 9 times by pistol (bullets did not hit any organ or anything vital though), and you surely know what effect does a bullet have on human body, which brings up an important question: what is deadlier, bullet or an arrow?
My Dad was shot 7 times with a .357 and lived, so there is some more anecdotal evidence for surviving bullets.
And some more:
Quote
Overall Bill reports he “observed” eighty arrow wounds, the majority to the trunk, thirty-six in all. Of these thirty-six men injured twenty-two died.
So nearly 2/3 of soldiers with arrow wounds to the trunk died. That's a lot. Plus, those were American Indian arrowheads, not the iron/steel versions.
Title: Re: Just how deadly is bow and arrow?
Post by: Fredom on February 05, 2014, 07:05:24 pm
We are talking about mail, scale and plate armor here. I am sure that getting hit by an arrow is fatal while wearing nothing but leather armor, but I couldnt believe the soldiers in medieval movies getting bagged by one arrow while being shot into chest wearing cuirass.
Besides, I have heard of a man that survived getting shot 9 times by pistol (bullets did not hit any organ or anything vital though), and you surely know what effect does a bullet have on human body, which brings up an important question: what is deadlier, bullet or an arrow?
Depends if the arrowhead is fully in your body, if it is, it is nonsense to try to pull it out, as the hooks on the back of the arrow point will open up the wound and make it much worse.
That was 50 Cent maybe?! He got shot 9 times in his back and survived that. Well, look at him now
Title: Re: Just how deadly is bow and arrow?
Post by: Nightmare798 on February 05, 2014, 07:22:31 pm
That was 50 Cent maybe?! He got shot 9 times in his back and survived that. Well, look at him now
Nah, it was definitelly someone else. I think it was a revenge or something, because the guy that shot didnt even tried to reason with him or rob him and he tried to kill the guy in broad daylight, in front of his house no less, while he was doing some repairs on his car. he just pulled out his gun, shot him 9 times, and escaped.
I cant remember who it was or who was shooting though.
EDIT: Please remember people that we not alking about obvious circumstances like getting shot in head, getting shot while not wearing armour or very little of it, or getting shot by a high power bow (longbow, composite bow).
Title: Re: Just how deadly is bow and arrow?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 05, 2014, 07:27:07 pm
Well I think bullets vs arrows is hard to compare, since we have modern medicine to help people survive gun shot wounds. But IMO I think that bullets are travelling much faster than arrows, and are more aerodynamic, so they cause smaller wounds when they hit. But at the same time, I've seen some crazy nasty exit wounds from large caliber bullets that look like an explosion happened. I think a bullet would probably cause less damage unless it was a small caliber that was rattling around inside your body (rather than an in and out wound), or a very large caliber that caused a massive exit wound.
Title: Re: Just how deadly is bow and arrow?
Post by: bavvoz on February 05, 2014, 08:17:58 pm
No clue, I think it's very hard to compare the two unless we're doing ballistic testing with different arrows and different caliber bullets, fired from different draw pound bows, and different types of firearms.
Title: Re: Just how deadly is bow and arrow?
Post by: bavvoz on February 05, 2014, 09:06:47 pm
True :)
Title: Re: Just how deadly is bow and arrow?
Post by: Overdriven on February 05, 2014, 11:30:20 pm
Roman arrowheads often had 3 barbs rather than the usual two. I imagine this was done in a lot of other places. Imagine getting hit with that shit and having to have it removed. I'd rather take a bullet any day.
Title: Re: Just how deadly is bow and arrow?
Post by: Nightmare798 on February 05, 2014, 11:40:35 pm
Roman arrowheads often had 3 barbs rather than the usual two. I imagine this was done in a lot of other places. Imagine getting hit with that shit and having to have it removed. I'd rather take a bullet any day.
I would think that manufacturing barbed arrows would be pretty expensive, but feel free to correct me if that is not true.
Title: Re: Just how deadly is bow and arrow?
Post by: Prinz_Karl on February 06, 2014, 01:59:45 pm
Dr. Bill estimates an “expert bowman can easily discharge six arrows per minute.”[8] In one of Dr. Bill’s cases three soldiers suffered a total of 42 arrow wounds between them. Although this number of wounds was extreme, Bill states he rarely saw someone with a single arrow wound.[9]
Ok sorry, what I meant was that you wouldn't be hit by much more than one arrow and continue the charge. Considering archers used mass firing multiple arrow wounds are quite possible when the wounded troops were hit again. True.
Title: Re: Just how deadly is bow and arrow?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 06, 2014, 05:01:19 pm
Roman arrowheads often had 3 barbs rather than the usual two. I imagine this was done in a lot of other places. Imagine getting hit with that shit and having to have it removed. I'd rather take a bullet any day.
Depends on the bullet. A small caliber can easily rattle around off your bones and cause a lot more damage than a clean "in and out" wound (or one that stops in you without bouncing around). Imagine a piece of steel rattling around inside your chest at high speeds (or hell even your thigh...cross your fingers it doesn't hit an artery while it's pin-balling around)...
Or a high caliber can basically explode on the exit wound, creating a massive hole where it exits that is way larger than the hole that would be caused by pulling out a barbed arrow.