cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Angantyr on January 15, 2014, 02:09:39 pm
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edit: outdated
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wasnt heavy cavalry most feared force during medieval times?Its not as easy as you think especialy if you get reared by glance from lvl 1 peasant with pitchfork while riding +3 plated charger whos upkeep is more than your entire upkeep. Leave them as they are now, with this amount of markeplace scammers they wont ever run out of cash and will always be able to run on hippos.
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Unarmored horses should take damages for bumping.
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I think the horses Upkeep needs to be fixed. The upkeep of a cataphract/eastern Warhorse is only slightly lower than the one of a Mamluk/Charger while they are far superior horses. If you use a 3k+ upkeep horse this 600/700 gold won't make much of a difference. Would be nice if cata/eastern either got lower upkeep or some HP buff, because they die very fast when the get shot by ranged, while charger/mamluk only have to fear Arbalesters and throwers.
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I think they should be cheaper but less like riding a tank (less armour/HP)
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everyone who thinks horses are OP now should try and take a ride with current amount of ranged, good luck staying alive even with heaviest horses.
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Not necessarily saying they are OP there's just too many of them when more cav players use barded horses than not.
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everyone who thinks horses are OP now should try and take a ride with current amount of ranged, good luck staying alive even with heaviest horses.
Yeah, it's pretty dangerous for the lone rider. Anyone being smart and sticking with the 5+ other cav on their team, especially if they're all armored, doesn't really have much of anything to fear. They're like ranged, they get progressively more dangerous(and easier to play) as their numbers and teamwork increase.
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+3 Charger, is meant to do what i bought it for, stay alive. If i wanted a horse that died in 2 arrows then i would ride around on an unarmoured one, for the upkeep cost of 3700 i think im entitled for my horse to take a few extra hits, plus with the amount of HA, HX and ground ranged, a destrier or courser are completely uselss, becaus eyou are unable to charge any ranged.
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People ride armoured horses, because ranged have made it unplayable to ride anything below the 40+ armor rating.....
Also the Heavy charger, Mamluk horse and the Plated charger are really good for 1h cav, since they can move in an take a shitload of hits..
Also, you really gotta be a mad jew to keep up, riding these ponies...
I miss the times where u could ride Destriders, Coursers and Arabian war horses without feeling like a kamikaze pilot..
Anyways, nothing to see here folks.... move along
PS: TYR, DID U RUN OUT OF GOLD :?: :lol:
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Jews don't ride horses : too expensive !
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they pretty much pay to play, leave em to it. they are too easy to kill anyway.
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People ride armoured horses, because ranged have made it unplayable to ride anything below the 40+ armor rating.....
^
Truth
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And HA/HX try to ruin fun of everyone else with good kiting and survivability due to the horse
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People ride armoured horses, because ranged have made it unplayable to ride anything below the 40+ armor rating.....
I understand, but at least target those ranged with your horses then instead of backstabbing good, honest infantry.
And yeah, mostly horse ranged are using heavy, too.
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The mod needs to buff light cav and it will provide counters to what are currently counter less classes. I wrote this solution in response to people crying that all cav be nerfed and find it appropriate here.
Maybe heavy cav, but us light cav have a rough go of it. Get 2 shot/hit by everything on maps that are to often tight lanes where maneuvering is next to impossible, even with 9 riding. Archers and other range are never 1 hit with the heavy lance, meaning that if they do not see you coming they will typically dismount you while your exiting the pass. Horse archers also take several [+ or - 5] hits meaning your going to get owned as they kite you around the map. Heavy cav just need to park their tanks in front of you, stopping your horse, and hack you to death, couching and stabbing them with the heavy lance is ineffective. Considering the extreme cost of cav (I have lost over 40k in a day's session because of the cost of the Arabian warhorse,) I really think that crying for nerfs when light cavs has already been nerfed to the ground is unnecessary and frustrating. I myself, on foot, with my hbs, can manage 2 (or 3 bad) light cav, typically able to dismount or kill the riders unless they break off. If anything light cav and/or the heavy lance needs a buff so that we can deal effectively with range, horse range and those metal elephants that everyone crys about.
I do not think that heavy cav should be nerfed on the grounds that It is incredibly expensive to play, and rather that creating a counter class would be a superior solution. The counter that I have suggested would help counter a variety of classes that by many people are currently considered op. The only possible downside to my suggestion is that melee, the ones who are bad at managing cav, will fall victim more often to light cav then they currently do, however I think this reasonable, especially considering that people can learn to manage cav and that such an inability it is not inherent in any particular class .
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Yeah, it's pretty dangerous for the lone rider. Anyone being smart and sticking with the 5+ other cav on their team, especially if they're all armored, doesn't really have much of anything to fear. They're like ranged, they get progressively more dangerous(and easier to play) as their numbers and teamwork increase.
That's true of any class.
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Just to make it clear; I have no special difficulty dealing with cavalry, ranged are my nemesis, but on EU1 these last many days about 80% of all cavalry have been plated and most of them ranged themselves.
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Intead of nerfing heavy horses, I'd rather buff light horses into existence again. Right now all horses handle like boats. There's very little point using a horse that turns like a yacht over using a horse that turns like a supertanker, when that supertanker has chances to survive enough time for you to get into range of something while the yacht cannot.
That's true of any class.
No
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Armored horses should vastly reduce the accuracy of HA/HX and possibly HT's. Realistic? No. Balanced? Yes.
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Armored horses should vastly reduce the accuracy of HA/HX and possibly HT's. Realistic? No. Balanced? Yes.
That's probibly the most balanced possible thing. Perhaps lower the profencency of ranged by 2-3x the horses armor? Or 1/7-10 the horse archery
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Yeah, it's pretty dangerous for the lone rider. Anyone being smart and sticking with the 5+ other cav on their team, especially if they're all armored, doesn't really have much of anything to fear. They're like ranged, they get progressively more dangerous(and easier to play) as their numbers and teamwork increase.
That's true of any class.
No
:? What class is more effective in less numbers?
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:? What class is more effective in less numbers?
Simply having 5 melee on your team working together isn't necessarily anything to be afraid of. A group of only 5 melee players is pretty small actually. 5 heavy cav on the other hand, isn't a sight any melee wants to see heading towards them, they can pretty much do whatever they want if the terrain is in their favor. I don't know if you've played a strategus field battle before, but one cavalry player is definitely more strategically valuable than one infantry player, especially if we're talking heavy cav.
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Simply having 5 melee on your team working together isn't necessarily anything to be afraid of. A group of only 5 melee players is pretty small actually. 5 heavy cav on the other hand, isn't a sight any melee wants to see heading towards them, they can pretty much do whatever they want if the terrain is in their favor. I don't know if you've played a strategus field battle before, but one cavalry player is definitely more strategically valuable than one infantry player, especially if we're talking heavy cav.
What if those 5 melee players all have pikes?
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Simply having 5 melee on your team working together isn't necessarily anything to be afraid of. A group of only 5 melee players is pretty small actually. 5 heavy cav on the other hand, isn't a sight any melee wants to see heading towards them, they can pretty much do whatever they want if the terrain is in their favor. I don't know if you've played a strategus field battle before, but one cavalry player is definitely more strategically valuable than one infantry player, especially if we're talking heavy cav.
I agree. Infantry classes probably has the least cohesion. Only by staying close enough they can keep their advantage, and even so they are more prone to have some weaknesses.
Still, would love to see 5 hoplites heavily sticking together and killing anyone in their path :mrgreen:
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What if those 5 melee players all have pikes?
Then they're extremely vulnerable to everything in the game that isn't atop a horse using a melee weapon? This includes horsemen that dismount to quickly dispatch those idiots who thought it was a good idea to only have 5 of the same weapon that all have the same attack direction. Couldn't you have at least said 5 hoplites?
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Simply having 5 melee on your team working together isn't necessarily anything to be afraid of. A group of only 5 melee players is pretty small actually. 5 heavy cav on the other hand, isn't a sight any melee wants to see heading towards them, they can pretty much do whatever they want if the terrain is in their favor. I don't know if you've played a strategus field battle before, but one cavalry player is definitely more strategically valuable than one infantry player, especially if we're talking heavy cav.
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Aww shucks
I always do my best to enable friendly infantry to do better.
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Then they're extremely vulnerable to everything in the game that isn't atop a horse using a melee weapon? This includes horsemen that dismount to quickly dispatch those idiots who thought it was a good idea to only have 5 of the same weapon that all have the same attack direction. Couldn't you have at least said 5 hoplites?
Ok 5 hoplites then.
But, I'm not sure why your arguing what your arguing... all I was saying was
:? What class is more effective in less numbers?
one cavalry player is definitely more strategically valuable than one infantry player, especially if we're talking heavy cav.
But since we are now on the subject, your claim is a variable dependent on many factors. Perhaps in an open field as a support character your theory may be true for heavy cav, but NA and EU1 battle maps are not open fields. I would also suggest that you not group light with heavy cav for the reasons I listed a few posts up.
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I rode a +3 rouncey without any problems for nearly a year back when ranged wasn't seen as too much of an issue. Maybe the problem lies with ranged?
@Jason, Cav also have the opportunity to get off the horse at any location they choose, ending up with a mostly capable melee build on foot. 1v1, it helps against many cav counters.
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Dont all horses have exactly 0 armour on there legs? Chop/stab for the legs. Cav dont need anymore nerfs. I say give em back the old lance angle so lancers can actually dodge range whilst trying to lance them 8-)
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yeah +3 rouncey used to be great. Now a normal destrier or even a +3 one dies really quickly to pew pew. When im cav i have to borrow a loomed cata from the armoury to even be slightly effective and not horseless after 30 seconds
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Nerf ranged damage against armor, seems strange for it to be mostly higher than melee.
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@Jason, Cav also have the opportunity to get off the horse at any location they choose, ending up with a mostly capable melee build on foot. 1v1, it helps against many cav counters.
@San, Cav also must invest points into riding that infantry do not. As such, from a purely statistical perspective, dismounted cav will always be at a disadvantage.
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Against the likes of pikes and hoplites (and if you're shielder cav, lone ranged), you should have the advantage. They don't have the luxury of extra slots for dueling weapons. That's really all I meant.
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Against the likes of pikes and hoplites (and if you're shielder cav, lone ranged), you should have the advantage. They don't have the luxury of extra slots for dueling weapons. That's really all I meant.
dismounted cav will always be at a disadvantage.
That's really all I meant.
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I just want to put it out there that Pikes are way less of a problem than Hoplites. The pike animation is awful, and the damage isn't that high. It also glances a lot and you can see a pike a mile away. Hoplites stab much faster but with less dead spots and aren't as apparent. The Hoplite stab animation also adds the most length of all stabs, I think. Certainly more than the regular pole arm stab. Hoplites also have easier follow up attacks that are easier to aim and do more damage than the pike.
And tydeus, if 5 riders ride at a Hoplite, he will rear at least 2 of them, then block the rest and maybe take one bump damage then roll to the other end of the map.
So in short the emergence of Hoplites and horse ranged, plus the buffs to 1h and polearm animations and the constant nerfs to cav have made them mostly ineffective.
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You can outrange a hoplite with a Heavy Lance if you do it right, though it of course requires a pretty open area and him to be alone, and they can just choose to block instead of trying to hit you and be unkillable (the problem with hoplites in melee also) but yeah hoplites are more of a problem for any class than long spears, atleast with them they have pretty severe downsides to negate the benefits of using one unlike hoplites.
But anyway on the main topic -
The main reason for people using armoured horses now is the fact that they are still 5 riding which means there is literally no reason to not use one if you have the gold. Personally I don't think the lighter horses dieing fast to ranged is that big of a deal because if you are using a rouncey, destrier or courser you should be able to melee perfectly fine too, so if your horse gets shot down after you kill 1-2 guys on horseback i'd say they are almost just like having free kills.
I think you should have to invest heavily in riding to use armoured horses, so much so that your melee will be severely limited. They should be for dedicated cavalry players, who need to have their horse live for a long time to utilize their build because they suck when they aren't a horse. It is really stupid that you can add 5 riding to any melee build and you will 100% increase your KDR by a huge amount just using a heavy horse.
If all the armoured horses were 8 riding requirement they would be a lot more balanced, skill based and just generally fun for everyone. High riding builds are fun for the cavalry player, heavy cav actually having a downside is fun for melee and ranged players, and anyone who likes to use the other horses with their melee/cav hybrids suddenly doesn't feel like they are just gimping themselves by not using an armoured horse.
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I see no reason to need more than 5 to ride a regular horse. It's not harder to ride a horse with an armor as it's slower that way.
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The problem isn't the fact that they are armored and have loads of HP, they still have weak points (head, swings on legs).
It is in the fact that they are really fast and maneuverable, for infinite time (opposing to the historic records of heavy cav, for the most obvious reasons), with the addition of the problem created by how speed bonus works in this game.
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Infinite time ??? You mean 7 minutes, I suppose...
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I've played all classes fairly extensively for some time and I think it's fair to say ranged is pretty damn overpowered, especially versus heavily armored things. A tincan is a joy to see if you have a +3 longbow and +3 bodkins, they can't move fast enough to dodge you and your damage is barely hindered. The same applies to a lesser degree with horses; despite having heaps of health and more armor than I would've though a person could wear, ranged weapons still kill them way too quickly.
Also, I think it's pretty ridiculous how horses have ZERO armor on their legs. It should be a percentage of their armor (maybe 25% or so) and the models should reflect this; a plated charger could have chainmail on their legs for instance.
Finally I don't think price is a very good deterrent, at all. It just means that only people who have retired enough to have amassed a sizable fortune will be able to play them. This also means that the majority of horses are heirloomed.
Light Cav should be buffed somehow; I think all horses should also have a higher resistance to ranged weaponry, scaling with the horses speed/maneuver. I also think that depending on the speed/maneuver of the horse, it should be able to execute a dodge, aimed by the camera, which is faster and longer but not as high as the regular jump and has a say, 45 degree arc from the horse's facing point. Also, horses should have their difficulty related to their weight (health/armor) so it's not harder to ride an Eastern Horse than it is to ride a Plated Charger, I would've thought this would be pretty obvious seeing that it would befit both balance and realism discussions. This would reduce the melee plausibility of dedicated heavy cavalry and increase that of light cavalry, which I again, would have though made sense.
This could relate to a suggestion I made a while back of dodges; I think people should be able to execute a roll; similar to say, Gears of War. (forwards, backwards, sideways) It should however, reduce movement or even attack speed/damage for a time so that it's not advisable to spam it in combat situations other than to stop yourself being squashed, shot etc.
The dodge should depend heavily on the players athletics/agility and their equipment weight, also their unsheathed weapons. People with giant swords (flamberge) or giant spears (pike, longspear etc.) should not be able to dodge whatsoever. However, people with light armor and a 1h sword should be able to execute a quick, and lengthy dodge which can save them from the impending doom of a plated charger squashing you.
This would substantially reduce the Q_Q from all classes; more people would be able to use cav if they wish, without fear of disgusting upkeep, naughty arrows and long pokey things and being 1 shotted by a lucky legchop.
Infantry would have their Q_Q reduced in that they can now actually dodges horses instead of just waiting for the squish.
Archers would also be able to dodge various things; ranging from enemy arrows to a gigantaur horsey, to even a naughty axe.
tl;dr- Give horses leg armor, reduce upkeep and buff resistance to ranged weapons. Also give them a 45 degree leap. However increase difficulty for heavier horses and significantly reduce it for some light ones.
Give infantry the ability to dodge.
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Infinite time ??? You mean 7 minutes, I suppose...
Does it really matter?
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I think what everyone is saying is there's no way a 1h stab with a short sword should wreck both the armored horse and rider.
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Cav is not OP, i have been on many maps where it was like 17+ cav on the other team and one sad cav on ours, and we won 4-0.
How? by not running after them into the open like tards and using the fucking stakes , map features and teamplay to gain an advantage.
So they are not OP at all, just a game changer if used properly and what i've seen is like usually half the cav on our team either suicide charges or spends the entire round chasing that elusive HA or HX ignoring the enemy ranged and inf completely.
Its true that some maps, mainly that desert dunes one is really bad experience if your on a low cav team vs +10 cav on the other, but that just plain bad map design in the first place, not Cav being OP.
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I think what everyone is saying is there's no way a 1h stab with a short sword should wreck both the armored horse and rider.
Every melee hit should completely wreck a cav player if it's at speed, it's your own fault for being bad enough to get hit by a "1h stab with a short sword". Things like that should do MORE damage to punish the masses of completely awful cavalry players who get away with making mistakes far too much.
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Horses are for me big, running banks of points.
Ranged are shooting horses because thay are their really dangerous oponents, and also it's helping your team to win.
I sometimes can deal with 1 cav guy in open field, but 2 are just deadly (especially 1h cav).
Heavy cav is not OP, they are paying hi upkeep for those heavy horses, but they are also quite easy to shoot down.
It's also true, that it's faster to kill rider than horse (on strat battles many times 1 horse could survive 2 or 3 riders :D)
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i love catapract or mamluk horsie,just go and laugh at archers not dmging it. :mrgreen:
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I hate the fact, that we are forced to use these horses cause of ranged....
I miss riding my courser or destrier...... :?
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Ye,u need to be very dumb to ride destrier,rouncey,courser or some of this "heavy" horses in middle like barded or war horse,they are just too weak.
2 arrows and they are down.
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i love catapract or mamluk horsie,just go and laugh at archers not dmging it. :mrgreen:
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let me try to kill your horsie :twisted:
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My courser usually dies every round, and my plated charger's only use is to charge in like a tank and run sh!t over. You take that away, and it's useless. Besides, it frequently gets reared in a group of people with a tiny little polearm, and I'm dead. And then they surround and gang bang my poor charger.
Dev's, don't listen to OP. He's trying to poison your minds
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Ride with us, use armored horses, even if they are weak! TO DEATH, FOR THERE IS NO OTHER WAY! TO DEATH, WITH ARMORED HORSES! TO DEATH!
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WE RIDE INTO BATTLE TO OUR DEATHS with such horses! But they mustn't be nerfed any longer!
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I'd give you a +1 because you love heavy horses, but i want to give you an infinite amount of -1's because you mix the speech at Helms Deep with pictures from the Ride of the Rohirrim.
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Never said they needed to be nerfed, just made less attractive (edit: ranged patch seems to have helped though). There were just too many of them similar to if all infantry were running around in plate armor. Variation suffers if something is generally just a better choice than most everything else.
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Never said they needed to be nerfed, just made less attractive (edit: ranged patch seems to have helped though). There were just too many of them similar to if all infantry were running around in plate armor. Variation suffers if something is generally just a better choice than most everything else.
ATM heavy horses works like they should.
Today i were shooting at +3 plated cherger I shot him 4 times in body (longbow and bodkins on +3), shokoshugi shot it twice (horn bow and tatar arrows +3), one loomed bolt and one more unloomed arrow from bow. That horse was still alive... like it should :mrgreen:
my friend mounted it and said that it have like 7% hp left, and IMO its ok :)
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Steevee, the only archer in-game that have common sense.
Thumbs up :wink:
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Steevee, the only archer in-game that have common sense.
Thumbs up :wink:
I know you hate me anyway ^^
IMO every time when you are using expensive gear you shoul have some benefits.
If you sacrefice your time for looming equipment changes should be also noticable.
You can see those benefits almost everywhere, but not in bows after one of patches. Getting accuracy and speed is nice , but with other weapons you can see changes in dmg also. it would be nice to see that change in bows too.
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Does it really matter?
A horse can run for 7 minutes without any fatigue.
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The main things that I'll add to this are..... If ranged didn't exist, arabian would be an absolute god among horses. It almost feels too easy with that amount of maneuverability. Also, plated charger is incredibly niche in it's uses, but it still does definitely serve a unique purpose on occasion. That being said, it's probably still pretty bad when stacked up against the next 4 heaviest horses in practically all situations.
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Horses are for me big, running banks of points.
Ranged are shooting horses because thay are their really dangerous oponents, and also it's helping your team to win.
I sometimes can deal with 1 cav guy in open field, but 2 are just deadly (especially 1h cav).
Heavy cav is not OP, they are paying hi upkeep for those heavy horses, but they are also quite easy to shoot down.
It's also true, that it's faster to kill rider than horse (on strat battles many times 1 horse could survive 2 or 3 riders :D)
Bullshit, archers never shot my horse before "score" and valor were in the game.
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Bullshit, archers never shot my horse before "score" and valor were in the game.
maybe, but since there is a point system some archers and other ranged are shooting horses for points and to be shure that you are not going to backstab them.
Since i started to play this mod i always shoot horses, clanmates were also asking "Steevee, kill that pony pls" :mrgreen:
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Heavy knights on heavy warhorses... They SHOULD plow throught anything but a line of pikes. And they currently do. Keep it that way. Whats the point in useing weeks of hard erned gold, if you dont get a benefit?
No, i never use horsy.