cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: wayyyyyne on December 27, 2013, 01:12:47 am

Title: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: wayyyyyne on December 27, 2013, 01:12:47 am
Now I could write a lengthy and elaborate post on why but instead I'm gonna break it down to this:

They add nothing to the game but more projectiles

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Panos_ on December 27, 2013, 01:17:51 am
Yes please, remove ballistas from siege, and buff 2h class a bit to compensate.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Herkkutatti666 on December 27, 2013, 04:51:12 am
Ballista op, got 14 kills with it as an attakcer!!
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Porthos on December 27, 2013, 07:47:11 am
+100500
Ballistas is just the worst update 2013.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Kafein on December 27, 2013, 11:51:31 am
It was fun the first dozen times
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Kalp on December 27, 2013, 11:55:16 am
I blame Fips  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Hirlok on December 27, 2013, 02:21:29 pm
Naaaah - leave them in!

They give peasants and all those melee guys who deny themselves the fun of playing archer a bit of ranged fun!

Just a few less (on some maps they are really annoying), a slight nerf (not ALWAYS oneshot kill, more like 50% + the funny fly/knockdown animation) and better (=worse) placement, so it take a bit more skill using them
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: [ptx] on December 27, 2013, 02:29:00 pm
Do they REALLY bother anyone that much? I just ignore them, except when i die once per map or something...
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Ronin on December 27, 2013, 02:33:06 pm
I want to reply to this thread, but at the same time I'm also trying to stop myself because I don't want offend anyone due to the insults I am going to make.

I'll jost post this instead. Think what you want.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Vibe on December 27, 2013, 02:46:29 pm
Do they REALLY bother anyone that much? I just ignore them, except when i die once per map or something...

Die once per map to it? That's like -0.00023 KD, fucking nerf that OP shit
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Leshma on December 27, 2013, 02:50:08 pm
Lazy people... it's easy to dodge ballistas on most siege maps. And DTV players love ballistas.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Moncho on December 27, 2013, 02:50:56 pm
Die once per map to it? That's like -0.00023 KD, fucking nerf that OP shit
Except that siege KD is not stored on the website.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Osiris on December 27, 2013, 04:47:45 pm
ballistas are fun :D should add build able ones for strat.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Pinche on December 27, 2013, 08:01:06 pm
I love ballistas.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Chris_the_Animal on December 27, 2013, 08:32:08 pm
I love ballistas.
what we can clearly see in your sig...

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Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Herkkutatti666 on December 27, 2013, 08:34:27 pm
All these battlemy old friends telling how siege should be, lel.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Ikarus on December 27, 2013, 11:56:27 pm
I like ballistas, shooting into a crowd with them is fun, and the people who use the ballista are also easy targets

-> it´s a rewarding but risky position in siege

also, it adds a bit of atmosphere when you climb up a ladder and the first guy in front of you suddely flies over your whole team with a big fat bolt in his stomach

you guys want more melee? bring meleeserver back  :?
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Porthos on December 28, 2013, 09:01:00 am
Do they REALLY bother anyone that much? I just ignore them, except when i die once per map or something...
Tell it to him:
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(click to show/hide)
Ballistas is just stupid. You almost cant survive no matter if you use shield or tonn of IF or whatever else. And yes it is REALLY bothering you when you trying to reach the flag, spent a lot of time just to get your ass over there, and then *bang* some random shit landed into your head. What for it is added? Or don't we have enough of ranged my old friends yet? Besides that many people tends to stick with ballistas while the enemies capturing the flag just in a couple of steps from them. I've seen many times how people just messing up near ballistas, reloading it instead of going to defend the flag. Ballistas is a fun thing, but very stupid at the same time.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Dalfador on December 28, 2013, 09:11:19 am
I wish they could skewer and pin people to walls
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: korppis on December 28, 2013, 10:31:56 am
Even tho I don't love getting shot, I do like the ballistas. Just imagine you have to get up some steep ladder only to meet a damn solid shieldwall with few maulers. No way to survive it otherwise, but you can clear a way with ballista. It can even out a fail balance on some rare occasions if used correctly. Tho IMHO they should be positioned so that defenders can't rape attacker spawn with one. And no more than one ballista for defenders...
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Ronin on December 28, 2013, 11:59:14 am
Tell it to him:
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(click to show/hide)
Ballistas is just stupid. You almost cant survive no matter if you use shield or tonn of IF or whatever else. And yes it is REALLY bothering you when you trying to reach the flag, spent a lot of time just to get your ass over there, and then *bang* some random shit landed into your head. What for it is added? Or don't we have enough of ranged my old friends yet? Besides that many people tends to stick with ballistas while the enemies capturing the flag just in a couple of steps from them. I've seen many times how people just messing up near ballistas, reloading it instead of going to defend the flag. Ballistas is a fun thing, but very stupid at the same time.
Bullshit, I had 6 shield skill (was using +3 steel shield) and I remember it helped me survive it.

In a place where you respawn after 5 seconds, it is not a big deal. You can actually watch out in dangerous ballista zones if you don't want to get shot as well.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: kinngrimm on December 28, 2013, 01:31:05 pm
... I just ignore them, except when i die once per map or something...
same here, still over and after all, more ranged was what we needed right?

The concept at first was nice, now it is just anoying ... like any ranged.
Also not much of a differance to other ranged, it pretty much kills you when you get hit.
But hell devs, this aint the biggest problem we have with ranged atm, just play for a week on eu1 and you may get a hint towards what all the other ranged nerv threads are talking about.

-------------------------
notion denied, there are bigger fish to fry
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Tindel on December 29, 2013, 09:40:26 am
The only thing they add is another "reason" for people to leech and not contribute to the team effort.

Siege is about taking/defending that flag, not shooting stupid projectiles and farm kills.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Rebelyell on December 29, 2013, 01:20:41 pm
wowo hate is stronk in you

Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Kafein on December 29, 2013, 02:48:40 pm
Ballistas are fun when you try and shoot them and get a lolzy multikill or get shot by it the first dozen times.

Remove please. They fit DTV perfectly but players are not bots.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Erzengel on December 29, 2013, 03:41:26 pm
Now I could write a lengthy and elaborate post on why...

100% sure you couldn't.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: wayyyyyne on December 29, 2013, 03:45:44 pm
100% sure you couldn't.

hehe troll'ded ;):)
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 29, 2013, 09:48:42 pm
100% sure you couldn't.
omg so boss
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: JokeQ on December 29, 2013, 10:01:58 pm
remove this shit
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: En_Dotter on December 31, 2013, 02:39:37 am
Balista is something i hate even more than xbow (and that is an achievement for balista), and i refuse to use any of those two. Yet, they add some sort of annoyance, fun and rage. That is totally fine with me. No from me. They should stay and annoy me more so i can kill more of those balista guys and xbow my old friends.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Osiris on December 31, 2013, 01:05:50 pm
Its not really much of a siege if you have no siege equipment :D I think they add something fun :P Its not like they are any worse than people with mauls camping corners and ladders :P
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: kinngrimm on December 31, 2013, 01:10:29 pm
Its not really much of a siege if you have no siege equipment :D I think they add something fun :P Its not like they are any worse than people with mauls camping corners and ladders :P
good point, remove mauls, too ...  :lol:
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Tzar on December 31, 2013, 01:11:12 pm
good point, remove mauls, too ...  :lol:

People still use mauls  :?:  :lol:
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: kinngrimm on December 31, 2013, 01:46:47 pm
People still use mauls  :?:  :lol:
mauls, mallets and long mauls, GO and OdE gank squads do use those :rolleyes:
You did a while back, fitting to the name right  :P
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Moncho on December 31, 2013, 01:50:33 pm
That's actually been on the back of my head for a while, Tzar, weren't you TzarOfCrushYa at some point? I thought so, but one day I looked carefully and it was actually RushYa. Has it always been so, did I imagine the other one?
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Tindel on January 07, 2014, 11:55:38 pm
Balista is something i hate even more than xbow (and that is an achievement for balista), and i refuse to use any of those two. Yet, they add some sort of annoyance, fun and rage. That is totally fine with me. No from me. They should stay and annoy me more so i can kill more of those balista guys and xbow my old friends.

archer
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: wayyyyyne on October 02, 2014, 03:18:26 pm
10 months in and it's still as cheesy as ever to get killed by a ballista
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: BlindGuy on October 02, 2014, 03:37:01 pm
necro this shit to complain but honestly they are pretty suck, just be aware of when you are in ballista area.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Kafein on October 02, 2014, 09:24:33 pm
As I said, it was funny the first dozen times. Outside of the novelty factor, balistas offer nothing of value to the game and introduce unnecessary waiting.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: gallonigher on October 06, 2014, 07:30:47 pm
Ballistas are cancer; they are nothing more than a way for people to get cheap and undeserved kills.  I get sniped by scrubs on ballistas quite regularly since I'm often on top of the siege leaderboards and they don't even try to hide the fact that they are usually aiming for me.  It's a like a bad joke.  Maybe it was funny the first few times but now I'm fast losing any ounce respect I might've once had for people who keep getting back on such a skill-less weapon

Remove plz.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: San on October 06, 2014, 08:04:52 pm
I never really liked them since I can't shield against it, but do people dislike them that much nowadays? Should probably remove/limit them if they just annoy everyone.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: gallonigher on October 06, 2014, 08:42:19 pm
Oh god, yes, please remove.  The only ones who will miss it are those who abuse it.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: korppis on October 06, 2014, 08:48:59 pm
I don't mind ballistas as long as they are not aimed at chokepoints where people can't evade. Granted it's optimized place for ballista but way too powerfull IMO. Like this one map where attackers have to run over a bridge and half closed door (no other way in) and ballista is aimed right at that. You can just troll and kill same person all over again if you want, and only thing he can do is just sit at spawn. They are fine on open areas though.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Kalp on October 06, 2014, 08:53:33 pm
I think the problem is that some people just like to leech with them than relly help the team, only few are real "big gun" nightmares [Raziel  :evil: ]. I don't care personally if you remove them or not.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: pepejul on October 06, 2014, 09:06:10 pm
BUFF THEM !

MAKE FIRE ARROWS BALLISTA TO DESTROY SIEGE TOWERS !!!!


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Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Porthos on October 07, 2014, 02:58:11 am
Ballista is incredibly abusive shit. For example:
(click to show/hide)
Also this guy with epic K/D who was just standing behind the ballista most of the time (sadly I deleted all screens showing him shooting, but I remember it well):
(click to show/hide)
And ofc lucky shots like this:
(click to show/hide)
It is just very cheap and easy way to kill an enemies. As Gallonigher mentioned, it is pretty easy to defend a map by just shooting at the best player in attacking team. I did it several times with him, so I understand his anger and totally agree with him. Balancers must increase the reloading time at least. Or better remove them at all :evil:
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: agweber on October 07, 2014, 05:30:48 pm
I like this problem, because it can actually be fixed by editing maps to remove OP ballistas instead of waiting on a the dev crew to come back from Melee for a few days to scour through the suggestions.

I think people should list out specific map ballistas that are OP and have someone go in and remove those specific ones.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: gallonigher on October 07, 2014, 08:55:32 pm
If it interferes with hero-fest 2014 then it's mainly down to awareness, also screw hero-fest.

So when a ballista targets the same person over and over again, its the targets fault for being too good and drawing attention to himself?  Can't say I agree with that. 

An awareness issue you say?  On most maps, I know full well where the ballistas are and when they're occupied but when facing a determined shooter down a narrow corridor, I can only hope to dodge a 1hk weapon that moves a lot faster than myself. 

It's apparent you've never been repeatedly targeted by a ballista crew
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: pepejul on October 07, 2014, 09:45:59 pm
I always target the same cunt with big plate and no shield... he pass through the door... I shoot him... he flies 5 meters away.... he comes back ... I fire again... again flies.... I can do it 5 or 6 times in same round..

So funny saying him write in chat "cunt !"

I love ballistas.....
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Moncho on October 07, 2014, 10:26:04 pm
To be fair, some are ridiculous.
Eg
Citadel, the castle with the inner wall and the death corridor with a ballista at the end, that ballista is crap
The wooden outside inner stone walls keep in the middle, two pretty similar ways one on each side, 2 doors to break on each, in that one from attacker spawn, at the end of the bridge, the gates chokepoint, the ballista that aims there is also horrible.
Other than those, I cannot think of any blatantly awful ballistae with which it is too easy to hit people
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: gallonigher on October 08, 2014, 12:31:08 am
Low pop chokepoint map when i'm in full plate and 0 athletics? The secret is not running in a straight line or standing still, we're back to the whole 'ranged OP cos you cant dodge it' discussion, if you're dodging after they've shot then you've waited too long. I agree that down a narrow corridor or wall then it's mainly luck to dodge or really good guessing, but the smart thing to do if you're trapped in a rare situation like that is to go a different way when you respawn. I never said it's the target's fault for being too good and drawing attention, if they were any good they wouldnt be ballista fodder would they?

Lost me here.  I have a 3.0 k/d ratio on a gen 1, I know how to play this.  There is no "secret,"  dodging an unblockable 1hk weapon is more luck than anything.  Zig zagging and doing loops while being forced to go the backdoor route all the time IS NOT a skill.   
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: sir_Ady on October 08, 2014, 11:30:17 am
What about making ballistas destructible? (like doors for example)
It would keep the fun (for the first 2-3 minutes of a siege) but would not mean an annoying trouble anymore... I bet melee heroes would go and destroy them ... while defense can decide whether a ballista is important enough to defend...
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: sir_Ady on October 08, 2014, 12:13:55 pm
I'd like that, hopefully more people distracted from going for the flag.

But in seriousness i do like that idea, although it'd be yet another thing teammates could troll attack and largely get away with

Well, it would be a team's decision whether to go for a given ballista or not... for example the ballista shown in this thread should be destroyed as it can decimate attackers with ease as attackers don't have any alternate route... Less critically placed ballistas may attract some troll attacks, but these will end quickly as no one will defend those ballistas.. or defend but it means distracted defenders as well...
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: zottlmarsch on October 08, 2014, 03:38:55 pm
Ballistae are fun to shoot teammates with. Please don't remove.

Thanks

Also the plural for Ballista is Ballistae and not Ballistas, get it right you dumb pricks  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: pepejul on October 08, 2014, 04:12:06 pm
the proof here :
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 (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=650428oshitgozen.jpg)
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Fips on October 08, 2014, 04:15:39 pm
To be fair, some are ridiculous.
Eg
Citadel, the castle with the inner wall and the death corridor with a ballista at the end, that ballista is crap
The wooden outside inner stone walls keep in the middle, two pretty similar ways one on each side, 2 doors to break on each, in that one from attacker spawn, at the end of the bridge, the gates chokepoint, the ballista that aims there is also horrible.
Other than those, I cannot think of any blatantly awful ballistae with which it is too easy to hit people

The Citadel ballista is there because simply removing the door (Remember getting stuck on that door as defense trying to get to flag? Yeah, i do and it sucked big time) would have made the door way too OP for attackers, so i had to think of a highly defensible way to get rid of that door, thus the ballista-chokepoint. And it worked out just fine from what i've seen. Attack still mainly wins by going over the gate/keep.

Anyway, ballistae are here to stay.

@pepe: Make a ban request then.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: BlindGuy on October 08, 2014, 04:33:42 pm
Ballistae are OP. Yes. Should they be removed? No.

Some reasoning: When I fall off a wall in siege, gravity kills me every fucking time. Gravity OP, remove please.

Also doors: they take really long to break, remove please, they are helping the defenders.


Honestly: if you are being focused by a ballista, you are predictable, slow, and therefor mentally weak. They really are not a problem. They help the defenders because, unlike real life, defenders do not have most of the actual boni that castle defenders had: Ladders do not require both hands and both feet like IRL, climbing a huge hill is not tiring like IRL, and pop is so low at the moment that without some very different spawn timer mechanics, defenders need all the boni they can get.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: pepejul on October 08, 2014, 04:35:28 pm
your talking is gold for me...

Ballista haters are just cunts.... learn to run !
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: wayyyyyne on October 08, 2014, 04:37:24 pm
Ballistae are OP. Yes. Should they be removed? No.

Some reasoning: When I fall off a wall in siege, gravity kills me every fucking time. Gravity OP, remove please.

Also doors: they take really long to break, remove please, they are helping the defenders.


Honestly: if you are being focused by a ballista, you are predictable, slow, and therefor mentally weak. They really are not a problem. They help the defenders because, unlike real life, defenders do not have most of the actual boni that castle defenders had: Ladders do not require both hands and both feet like IRL, climbing a huge hill is not tiring like IRL, and pop is so low at the moment that without some very different spawn timer mechanics, defenders need all the boni they can get.

Well, duh, you don't respawn in real life either. Anyway, siege was fine before ballistas came along and balanced with that. I don't have the time to explain what's inherently wrong with ballistas right now but I will do so later today when I got the time for it.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: BlindGuy on October 08, 2014, 04:43:19 pm
But there is NOTHING wrong with them. I die in 1 hit to Arbalests, and they get to run around, reload quicker and can hide.... How are ballistae, slowly reloading with no cover, any MORE OP than arbalests?

Also, get a shield: with 6 shield skill I have survived ballista bolts. It hurt, and the shield was just RUINED, but I got to go crush the little fucker shooting it.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: wayyyyyne on October 08, 2014, 08:02:59 pm
Ok, so since the majority of people in this topic appear to be too dense to grasp what's wrong with ballistas, I will, contrary to what I said in my original post, try my best to explain why they are bullshit.

Basically, there's three types of ballistas:



A) The ones which will shoot at you at your spawn or maybe like 3 seconds away from it.

Certainly the least common but the most useless ones at the same time. You spawn more or less instantly and also frequently closer to the castle/flag compared to where you got killed. There's zero (0) defensive value in those ballistas. Usually they require some skill to aim and don't forget to take the missed shots into account. These ballistas contribute more to the attackers advance because people will spend time reloading and aiming them with no advantage whatsoever for the defenders to be gained because the same people could just be actually defending something.

B) The ones which will shoot you because they are aimed at a chokehold.

I can see the point and fun of chokeholds but why do I have to die instantly? Shields will only very, very very occasionally prevent you from dying. I can maybe recall like two instances where I had a ballista shot in my triple loomed elite cav with 6 shield skill.
Anyway, it's hard not to get hit by a projectile when in a chokehold so why does it have to take no skill whatsoever to score a kill? I could live with receiving a headshot because that acutally takes skill so why this? Just why?

C) The ones wich aren't aimed at a chokehold and can't pick you off of your spawn either.

You might say they acutally require skill and I do agree with that. And that's also exactly why they are bullshit. It's because you will only score a kill every now so often with these ballistas. People will waste minutes of firing into thin air, minutes in which they could actually be helping their team in one way or another, but no, they prefer to mindlessly reload and not to kill anything.



Apart from all of what I just said, why do people with full melee builds have to have access to ranged weapons (I remember when there was no WPF requirement for throwing weapons and that got removed for a reason)?
It basically means that all the levels and melee gear and skills and whatnot will go into something that could be done by anybody. Also why do noobs aka peasants need to be able effortlessly kill anybody? Because it's either no effort whatsoever or wasting minutes that could instead be spent on trying to help the team or just, you know, trying to learn how to play the game.

Was there a problem before the introduction of ballistas with attackers winning rounds too fast? If so, I highly doubt ballistas changed anything about that. They are a zero sum game at best.

Also, I know that I didn't mention ballistas for the attacking team because it's so rare to even see somebody using them (let alone kill something).
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: gallonigher on October 09, 2014, 06:22:41 am
All I've gathered is that ballista are here as crutches for those who struggle in the melee aspect of the game, or at least against one particular player-- and repeating the words "learn to dodge" is such a cop-out.  Not everyone has a high agi build where dodging is easier-than-shit.  One day I'm gonna troll everyone so bad on ballista and I'LL FUCKING SHOW YOU ALL
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: gallonigher on October 09, 2014, 09:28:46 am
Maybe few people think you're worth a ballista shot?  Just because you're 0 ath and can dodge ballistas like Neo dodges bullets doesn't mean you're a threat; point being, I'm required to dodge ballistas a lot more often than you are
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Kafein on October 09, 2014, 12:53:27 pm
Point still stands that ballistas aren't fun, except for trolls and a few scrubs who genuinely enjoy cheap kills.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Kafein on October 09, 2014, 02:55:29 pm
As for 'fun' that's subjective, something that kills you wont seem fun. Dedicated melee dont think ranged are fun, ranged didnt think shield forcefields were fun or added to gameplay, i dont think agi-heroes are fun or add to gameplay and ninjas dont think plate-str crutchers are fun or add to gameplay.

That's an egregious fallacy. All melee players will tell you that they recognize a good fight when it happens, and that they recognize that they often die because someone outplayed them. Ranged, including ballistas, is in the general sense not like this at all.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Voncrow on October 09, 2014, 08:27:04 pm
Pls remove, they are worthless and turebal
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: gallonigher on October 09, 2014, 08:46:20 pm
Ranged in general is a different mentality that dedicated melee dont enjoy, you cant lolstab or feint-spam an arrow. But ranged is a key part of the game and dealing with it is just as essential as blocking and spamming feints, if you cant handle ranged you cant handle warband. Also, the last time we had a melee-only server on HRE server it failed hard cos noone liked playing for any period of time.

My main question would be are you anti-ballista for specific anti-ballista reasons, or are you anti-ballista because you are anti-ranged?


Don't try to spin this as another one of those "ranged is OP" debacles.  It's blatantly clear all you're doing is dodging the issue.  We're talking about BALLISTA, not ranged in general.  There is no wpf, ath, pd, (ect.) required to troll a ballista the entire round which means ANYONE, regardless of build or level can abuse it. 


The only solution presented on which both sides equally compromise is for the devs to make ballistae destroyable.  I could (and would) deal with that.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Kafein on October 09, 2014, 11:29:42 pm
Ranged in general is a different mentality that dedicated melee dont enjoy, you cant lolstab or feint-spam an arrow. But ranged is a key part of the game and dealing with it is just as essential as blocking and spamming feints, if you cant handle ranged you cant handle warband.

That's a circular argument. Ranged is not part of Warband "because ranged is part of Warband". Otherwise, if there were giant crabs with plasmaguns riding unicorns in the game, those things would be there because they are in the game as well. The game is an arbitrary construction that doesn't need to obey to any higher level rules.

Also, the last time we had a melee-only server on HRE server it failed hard cos noone liked playing for any period of time.

You are trying to represent a correlation as causation. The melee-only server experiments had a lot of idiosyncrasies all partly responsible for their lack of popularity, including the very odd choice of battle mode.

My main question would be are you anti-ballista for specific anti-ballista reasons, or are you anti-ballista because you are anti-ranged?

Ballistas magnify everything that is wrong with ranged as it exists in the game. It's quite natural to point out that some new things are not fun when one has been doing that a lot already about older and similar things.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Rewolwerowiec on October 11, 2014, 11:58:02 pm
Also this guy with epic K/D who was just standing behind the ballista most of the time (sadly I deleted all screens showing him shooting, but I remember it well):
(click to show/hide)

Dude you are wrong about my time spent at ballista :wink:.
I remember it like today, I created a character with 2h for fun (agi build with danish).
At the round I could shoot about 2-3 shots of the ballista, which I give with a little luck 3 to 6 kills.
The rest of the frags was captured during combat, but i agree with you ballistas are so OP (2h too).
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: lombardsoup on October 12, 2014, 12:00:59 am
Get rid of it
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Kafein on October 12, 2014, 12:52:25 am
Ranged, being an element of medieval warfare, is a part of Warband. It is a part of crpg because it is a major part of Warband.

If vanilla warband had giant crabs with plasmaguns riding unicorns and the vanilla mechanics were balanced around the fact they would be in the game, you would wreck balance by slicing them out of the game haphazardly because they interfere with your desired way of playing.

"An integral part of the game" is still completely arbitrary. There's no rule that says the game is better with ranged.

Trying to point out that this forum will loudly and constantly petition for certain things, but if ever implemented they really dont like it as much as they'd hoped. The grass is always greener.

You already said that, and missed my point.

You dislike ballistae because you dislike ranged, ballistae 'are not fun' because ranged 'is not fun' to you.

So what? Melee is fun for all participants, ranged is only fun for one side, if even that.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Kafein on October 13, 2014, 06:30:47 pm
"An integral part of the game" is still completely arbitrary. There's no rule that says the game is better with melee.

Exactly why there's no reason to discriminate. How many times have you seen people doing ranged duels on EU_3? Yeah. "Only ranged" doesn't see any activity whatsoever because the typical ranged player merely wants to shoot at helpless moving targets.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: wayyyyyne on October 15, 2014, 05:53:44 pm
Nope.

I won't take this. At least somebody try to convince me why they should stay so I can prove them wrong.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Kafein on October 15, 2014, 06:35:15 pm
I won't take this. At least somebody try to convince me why they should stay so I can prove them wrong.

The best Heskey has been able to come up to is "You dislike ranged therefore your point is invalid", so i doubt anybody would argue with you.

And the typical melee player wants to kill enemies with his melee weapon, it's how you play each class. I've seen plenty of ranged duels on EU_3 though it's not a dueling class. 'Only melee' sees exactly the same activity as 'Only ranged' considering the striking absence of a melee-only server, as that server was being horrendously underused.

I feel like we're being side-tracked from the thread a little bit. Would it be fair to surmise without putting words in your mouth too much that you dislike ballistae because you dislike ranged in this game/mod, and i'm generally on the opposite side of the fence? For me ranged are a necessary force of balance and prevent 2-dimensional gameplay. Also they're the pure embodiment of delayed gratification where every arrow you strafe or suffer makes the imminent moment when you storm their ranged nest and ravage them for easy melee kills all the sweeter.

Easy melee kills aren't fun. I'd rather nerf bows and crossbows into oblivion and give them good sidearms to compensate, and actually have fun fighting them. Right now killing ranged isn't fun per se, it's a satisfactory revenge that doesn't even come close to the grief they cause anyway.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: wayyyyyne on October 15, 2014, 10:38:47 pm
lol, classic appeal to popularity right there

X people voicing their opinion about something doesn't make it any less right or wrong. Ballistas are bullshit regardless of any amount of interchangeable up- or downvotes
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: wayyyyyne on October 15, 2014, 11:16:31 pm
I have no idea why we are even having this argument (or rather why YOU are trying to argue with me over supposed formality). What's there not to be taken serious about my suggestion? I think I've made some pretty good points on why I should never have to see a ballista on a siege server again.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Fips on October 15, 2014, 11:57:52 pm
There are plenty of reasons in this thread as to why they should stay and the currently active Scene Management (That would be me) decided that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages so yeah, not gonna remove them.
Have a nice day.  :wink:
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: wayyyyyne on October 16, 2014, 12:08:18 am
So I jut skimmed over the whole thread and the only reason that's been given why they should stay is "I like shooting them" whereas none of my points of how ballistas don't have any added value to them other than more projectiles flying around have been adressed.
There are no advantages to ballistas, that's my whole point.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Fips on October 16, 2014, 12:19:49 am
Peasants can be way more useful, delivers more variation in scene editing (The deathtrap in citadel would just not be the same), more variety when it comes to the whole siege experience,  you can shoot other ranged or cavalry with them even as melee. The only downside is crybabies crying about getting oneshot, which could happen without the ballistas just the same, except you can't carry around or run away with the ballista. And unless you get shot after every spawn without even reaching any enemies, i seriously don't see where this frustration is coming from. It's siege, you respawn and move on.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: imisshotmail on October 16, 2014, 03:31:43 am
the main annoying part of ballistas isn't being 1shot by them, it's the people who spend all round using them while getting 1-2 kills and be completely useless when they could be fighting. it's basically leeching.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Rico on October 16, 2014, 04:30:08 am
What about making ballistas destructible?

brilliant idea :D i'd sing songs of the hero teammate who destroys the ballista on top of the stairs at the helms deep tower
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: gallonigher on October 16, 2014, 05:03:39 am
Make ballistae destructible.  It's only fair.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Erzengel on October 16, 2014, 01:22:21 pm
Perhaps we could just remove some ballistas. Especially the ones at the attackers spawn seem to encourage leeching. Also remove the one on top of the stairs on the Helms Deep map.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: wayyyyyne on October 16, 2014, 04:06:42 pm
Peasants can be way more useful, delivers more variation in scene editing (The deathtrap in citadel would just not be the same), more variety when it comes to the whole siege experience,  you can shoot other ranged or cavalry with them even as melee. The only downside is crybabies crying about getting oneshot, which could happen without the ballistas just the same, except you can't carry around or run away with the ballista. And unless you get shot after every spawn without even reaching any enemies, i seriously don't see where this frustration is coming from. It's siege, you respawn and move on.

It's like you didn't even care to read what I wrote. Have you not noticed how the only ballistas to reliably score kills are those aimed at a chokehold (which often enough might be a gate that's 5 seconds away from your spawn point)?
Every other ballista is a literal time waster.
It's a noble cause of you to think of the peasants but in reality those things get operated by anyone but peasants. Might be because they actually want to experience the game instead of dully releasing a ballista shot at the right time (or not) when there's actual fighting to be had? I mean, I couldn't picture myself shooting a ballista when I were new. Because why would I when I could play the actual game instead?
Again, it might be technically correct to say that peasants would contribute at least something (which I think is debatable the way ballistas work) to their team operating a ballista instead of clogging up walls and getting in everybody's way. Realistically though there are usually more ballistas on a map than there are new players and even then it's not peasants shooting them.
Have I mentioned how they look like crap and don't blend into castle scenery at all? They look like something out of a different game. Complete Frankenstein tier.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Kafein on October 16, 2014, 06:46:41 pm
And unless you get shot after every spawn without even reaching any enemies, i seriously don't see where this frustration is coming from. It's siege, you respawn and move on.

So it's okay because you have enough imagination to think of something that would be more frustrating? That's some very weird argument right there.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Voncrow on October 16, 2014, 07:19:57 pm
There are plenty of reasons in this thread as to why they should stay and the currently active Scene Management (That would be me) decided that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages so yeah, not gonna remove them.
Have a nice day.  :wink:

Can we get a summary of them? I'm a tad bit lazy to look them up.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: pepejul on October 16, 2014, 08:35:14 pm
So I jut skimmed over the whole thread and the only reason that's been given why they should stay is "I like shooting them" whereas none of my points of how ballistas don't have any added value to them other than more projectiles flying around have been adressed.
There are no advantages to ballistas, that's my whole point.

I like shooting you
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: wayyyyyne on October 16, 2014, 08:57:41 pm
I like shooting you

reported for spam ;)))):))
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Fips on October 16, 2014, 08:58:55 pm
I can't be arsed to comment here anymore. You wanted to remove ballistas, the OP got plenty of downvotes and i want them to stay, too, so yeah. They stay.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: gallonigher on October 16, 2014, 09:33:12 pm
There are enough people that want them gone; they're just too busy playing and can't be arsed to comment on here.  Make them destructible,  limit their numbers, I don't care but meet us halfway.   Stop running away from current issues to go create more.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: gallonigher on October 16, 2014, 09:38:22 pm
*double post* sry pc froze
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Fips on October 17, 2014, 01:58:13 am
Making them destructible is not something i can do.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: San on October 17, 2014, 01:59:57 am
Ballistas are explicitly coded in there for every single action, and it's a pain to understand everything that's going on with it.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Kafein on October 17, 2014, 04:14:16 pm
Meet devs half-way and make it easier for them to agree with you cos at the moment without a poll or overwhelming number of +'s on OP how can devs tell if lots of people agree with you

It doesn't really matter. Ballistas stay because Fips likes them. Nothing to discuss here.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Erzengel on October 17, 2014, 06:35:31 pm
Making them destructible is not something i can do.

You are so useless Fips.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Bjord on October 17, 2014, 06:42:58 pm
kek

Why was Wayyne muted and temp banned?

I can't see any thing bad except whining about ballistas but, we all have those moments.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Teeth on October 17, 2014, 06:51:39 pm
What the hell is a temporary ban anyway and how is it different from getting muted?
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Fips on October 17, 2014, 07:20:18 pm
Used a RL picture from someone as his avatar without permission.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Bjord on October 17, 2014, 07:22:21 pm
Used a RL picture from someone as his avatar without permission.

kek
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: pepejul on October 18, 2014, 10:59:40 am
OMG ! Jesus didn't give me his permission !!!!  :D :D :D
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: BlindGuy on October 20, 2014, 02:27:31 pm
Well, since that is a picture of you, and from the way you whine and bitch you could well be a jewish man living with his mother at 30, you may well be Jesus so use the picture anyway.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Apple_the_Red on October 21, 2014, 03:56:09 am
Ballistas?
No, They're giant crossbows.
THE REAL BALLISTA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballista
If you want fixed ballistae, but still want melee have ranged, replace with lil stationary crossbows (any).
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Kafein on October 21, 2014, 10:33:33 pm
a jewish man living with his mother at 30, you may well be Jesus so use the picture anyway.

that part made me genuinely laugh for some reason
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: wayyyyyne on November 20, 2014, 03:42:48 pm
I think this issue deserves more attention and an official word from someone who is not Fips.

Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Admerius on November 20, 2014, 04:21:40 pm
How to fix ballistaes:
Nerf accuracy hard!
RTW style accuracy.
Well... maybe not that bad but at least halfway as bad as Ballistae accuracy is in RTW:1.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: QuisUtDeus on November 22, 2014, 09:06:29 am
I was all psyched when ballistas were introduced, assuming in my twisted mind that this could be something really cool for strat battles.

Now, they persisted on EU2 where low pop ballista shooting is one of the population killers, while they are not implemented in strategus .. gg

Remove this abusive shit from Siege and put it into strat6, thanks!  :D
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: wayyyyyne on December 08, 2014, 01:46:20 pm
I think this issue deserves more attention and an official word from someone who is not Fips.

pls respond
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Molly on December 08, 2014, 01:51:30 pm
I can't be arsed to comment here anymore. You wanted to remove ballistas, the OP got plenty of downvotes and i want them to stay, too, so yeah. They stay.
It doesn't really matter. Ballistas stay because Fips likes them. Nothing to discuss here.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: wayyyyyne on December 08, 2014, 01:53:05 pm
Molly, geh bitte woanders rumogern
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Molly on December 08, 2014, 02:10:41 pm
Personally, I like them the few times I play Siege. I'd like them to stay tbh...  8-)
Atmosphere and all that...
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: wayyyyyne on December 08, 2014, 02:19:13 pm
yeah right because they totally don't look like something cropped out of another game.
The only thing they add to the atmosphere is the feeling of cheesy kills.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on December 08, 2014, 08:32:07 pm
Ballistas are cool, I like them.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Falka on December 08, 2014, 10:37:04 pm
The other day I got killed 4 times in a row running from spawn to castle. Yea, I like ballistas too... nope.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: AwesomeHail on December 08, 2014, 11:29:54 pm
ballistae in strat... bolts piercing through FS's and equipment boxes, someone is spotted with a CS *BLAM* 1shot. no more equipment, only siege shields, CS's and cons material to make the ultimate battle royale
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: gallonigher on December 09, 2014, 01:01:18 am
The other day I got killed 4 times in a row running from spawn to castle. Yea, I like ballistas too... nope.

inb4lrn2dodge

Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: Kalp on December 09, 2014, 12:45:10 pm
inb4lrn2dodge
It's not working vs aimbots  :P Not everyone cheats use colored missiles.
Title: Re: Remove ballistas from siege
Post by: gallonigher on December 09, 2014, 07:38:16 pm
It's not working vs aimbots  :P Not everyone cheats use colored missiles.

Oh, I know.  I hate the cheap kills from ballista as much as anyone.