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cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Prpavi on December 17, 2013, 12:50:24 pm

Title: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: Prpavi on December 17, 2013, 12:50:24 pm
Well after many nerf ranged suggestions and some dev posts about the possible upcoming changes, I tend to disagree with the trend of putting 1h shielders as the number one counter to archers and ranged in general.

When playing as an archer my biggest counter were xbows and cavalry hands down not shielders. The are quite easy to kite when more archers/xbows are around or another melee guy. Shielders are a melee class and the are especially useful in melle blobs on the first line, I disageree to the fact that shielders should be doing ninja flanks with high agi, most of them will still remain in the main melee group and lowering the shield weight etc. will have little to no effect on the ranged of the server. It will unfortunatley impact melee yet again in a manner I really dislike.

So I would like ranged players, archers and xbow men to discuss what does actually counter them the most. please no "2h hero fucks kill everybody ofc" comments, would like to hear from dedicated ranged and people who played it extensively, not guys who play one melee class all the time.

Cheers
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: Boerenlater on December 17, 2013, 12:52:54 pm
cav
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: Adamar on December 17, 2013, 12:54:41 pm
Infs and snipers(xbows) Cavs I can handle 1on1.
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: Sniger on December 17, 2013, 01:00:23 pm
im a shielder and i think there is many other classes better at dealing with archers, i.e. as mentioned cav or xbows and them cloth rondel lamers. in my world a shielder is not suppose to be "anti-" something, but if played right and grouped it can counter almost any class. that's something other classes cannot.

1 shielder counters 1 archers. 2 archers counter 1 shielder.

archers never been OP in my head. there just been times (like now) where the sheer amount of archers is OP as well as poor balancing archers, cav and infantry. the amount of archeres is too much/OP, not the individual class. some players are very skilled archers, sure nerf them, but they will still be skilled.

i guess only way to get away from the massive amount of archers is to EITHER nerf them (i don't think it should be nerfed) or put some kind of restriction similar to that of other games.

i do think that 13 PD counterstrike archers is OP but that's just a glitchbug-thingy for the exploiters so ill ignore that for now.

edit: sry OP i know this is only for ranged, but i started crpg playing archer and played it for ab out 6 months till i grew tired of it, ive played melee ever since :)
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: Jeraz on December 17, 2013, 01:04:28 pm
In my opinion:(Good) x-bow by far, shielders are annoying but i can run away from them. Cav is pretty strong but only if there is more then 1.
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: Miwiw on December 17, 2013, 01:05:28 pm
Infantry, other ranged (mostly xbow) and at least 2 cav at once. Always depends on the map, always depending on the enemie's skill.
STR shielders are easy to avoid with enough agi and some experience. If they heavily stack agi it's another think however then they don't take that many hits of course.
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: Sniger on December 17, 2013, 01:07:38 pm
OP: i think a better question is "what counters HA/HX?"

u c what i did there? :D
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: oreshy on December 17, 2013, 01:09:03 pm
ht ...what else.
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: Sniger on December 17, 2013, 01:12:28 pm
i really think that a more true balancing would do the trick. lets be honest banner"balance" is screwing with the real balance. why not make balancer that balance directly 50/50 range, 50/50 cav 50/50 inf, 50/50 highlevels, no banner balance. just green vs. purple or blue vs. red or whatever the map-teams is called. sure some of you wont get to "teamwork" as you call it (i call it farming xp, totally overstacking with highlevel toons, securing the multiplier and fucking up the real balance)

but this will never happen because this mod is controlled by stackers and played by stackers and stackers don't give a shit about balance and fairgame :)
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: 722_ on December 17, 2013, 01:15:18 pm
Throwers
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: Tore on December 17, 2013, 01:16:15 pm
other ranged
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: Panos_ on December 17, 2013, 01:17:21 pm
the only thing that counters ranged, is real life death  :twisted:
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: Sniger on December 17, 2013, 01:17:30 pm
several times daily i see multiple archers getting raped by 1 agirondel
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: Molly on December 17, 2013, 01:18:37 pm
Well, after my playing HA for a few weeks, I couldn't pick any counter really. It depends highly on the way you play. Personally, I always stuck rather close to the fighting and got therefore killed by a lot of random weapons.

But if you choose to play like an asshole - which some of our HAs obviously do - then there basicly is no counter.

Xbow reload is fucking slow and when you spot one aiming at you, I rarely got hit but my warhorse soaked the bolt and before he could fire again I was already far far away or harassed him during his reloading.

Other archers were probably the worst cuz they can spam as much as you can with a steady aim. But again, seeing the archers pocket - they rarely spread out a lot - gives you the means to stay away from them. Not to mention that my unloomed warhorse easily takes 8 and more arrows before it dies.

Infantry is only dangerous when you make a mistake in riding. They are useless.

My conclusion is that there is no real counter but if something has to be named then I say Archers for the spamming capabilities.

This is particularly for Horse Archer. That class is pretty strong imho.
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: Teeth on December 17, 2013, 01:19:04 pm
Using 80k worth of gear as a heavy cavalryman with a 27/15 build I am very hesistant to take on a lone archer in an open field. I think that is very wrong on so many levels. I don't have a shield though. The times I risk it and stab them in the face moving at full speed, they often don't even die. While they usually take 1/3rd of my hp on the way there and another 1/3rd on the run. If they have the courtesy of not simply oneshotting me with a low distance insta hit headshot.

Especially my old friends like Shokoshugi who do way too much damage with way too high missile speed, can hold their shot for 5 seconds and sidestep at a very fast pace. I do not feel like I am a counter to archers in a 1 vs 1 scenario, and I will not risk it until the very end of the round.
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: Prpavi on December 17, 2013, 01:19:44 pm
OP: i think a better question is "what counters HA/HX?"

u c what i did there? :D

I c  :mrgreen:

xbows, other mounted ranged, Arab cav Sword, closed city maps


the only thing that counters ranged, is real life death  :twisted:

not guys who play one melee class all the time.
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: Sniger on December 17, 2013, 01:22:41 pm
Using 80k worth of gear as a heavy cavalryman with a 27/15 build I am very hesistant to take on a lone archer in an open field. I think that is very wrong on so many levels. I don't have a shield though. The times I risk it and stab them in the face moving at full speed, they often don't even die. While they usually take 1/3rd of my hp on the way there and another 1/3rd on the run. If they have the courtesy of not simply oneshotting me with a low distance insta hit headshot.

Especially my old friends like Shokoshugi who do way too much damage with way too high missile speed, can hold their shot for 5 seconds and sidestep at a very fast pace. I do not feel like I am a counter to archers in a 1 vs 1 scenario, and I will not risk it until the very end of the round.

cav is a unit class not Rambo assassin backstabba :p
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: Ronin on December 17, 2013, 01:40:18 pm
Shields, scene objects and dodging are passive counters
Backstabbing, forcing into melee, ranged are active counters

A thrower with shield is a good example as it combines both the passive and active countering elements.
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: Macropus on December 17, 2013, 01:47:49 pm
I believe MotF + shields combo is the best counter to ranged.
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: Panos_ on December 17, 2013, 01:49:57 pm
I have played 3 generations as a 2hander, 1 generation as a thrower, and 1 generation as a 1hander.

Midway

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#rekt
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: Bulzur on December 17, 2013, 01:50:36 pm
Using 80k worth of gear as a heavy cavalryman with a 27/15 build I am very hesistant to take on a lone archer in an open field. I think that is very wrong on so many levels. I don't have a shield though. The times I risk it and stab them in the face moving at full speed, they often don't even die. While they usually take 1/3rd of my hp on the way there and another 1/3rd on the run. If they have the courtesy of not simply oneshotting me with a low distance insta hit headshot.

Wait what ? You're stabbing them with a Cracked Katana, on a donkey ?
Or you're only taking into accounts the archers with 50 head armor ?


As a standard straw hat archer, i nearly always die in one hit in the face, it's part of the deal.

When a cavalry charges you dead on, they are taking a risk. But so is the archer, if he decides to try to shoot you, instead of just downblocking/sideblocking while sidestepping.
The archer may take 1/3rd of your health in one hit, but on the other hand, if he misses, you're nearly assured of a one hit kill. Thing is, it depends more of the archer skills, than your own.

I'm a veteran archer (not sayin i'm good, just that i'm old).
What used to kill me the easiest, were lancers previous the angle nerf.

Nowadays, it really depends on the map, and the players.
1h/shield heavy cav are the deadliest. Since your awareness can't help you survive against them, unlike ennemy xbows.
Next are the sniper xbow, since they also always oneshot me.
Couching cav on courser is also pretty sneaky, since i often miss the timing, and hit the horse in the dead, instead of the rider. And then die. What's funny, and occured several times, is my arrow killing the horse, but me still geting killed by the cav. Damn timing.

Rondel+shield are dangerous, when they gank you smartly, when you're already duelling another infantry.
HA and HX are okay on 1v1, but since they're cav, it's easy for them to gank ennemies one by one. And if there's at least 2 HA/HX, or even one lancer and one HA, you're just doomed.

I tend to avoid archer duels, since it's so easy to dodge arrows at long distance (though on some maps you can't see shit) and i'm an hybrid, so less wpf, so less accuracy, etc...


In my opinion, the main archery problem came with the loomed "rework". The fact that archery is the only class were looming (for 6 lp) your bow and arrows doesn't give you any more damage, means any player can be as deadly as one who wasted 3lp on his arrows, and used 3lp to get a slightly better draw speed and missile speed. Also, it's the one where you feel the most difference between lv30 and lv33+.
So nowadays, we have a lot of regular archers alt, with not even loomed bow or arrows, who know how to block, since their main is a melee, and thus aren't even fast to kill in melee. Worst being xbows, since they can easily be better hybrids than archers.

Also, the bodkin arrows doing pierce damage, instead of the longbow only, means any archers, and even worse : HA, can use bodkin arrows and deal decent damage to anyone. The fact that it breaks nearly every 3 rounds is a good money sink, but gold isn't a good balancing factor.


Finally, a lot of the QQ comes from the fact that there's too many range. And i don't see how you can solve this problem, since the class in itself is actually not so bad balanced. Every people saying archery is OP since Steeve killed them easily, forget the fact that they're facing a high level player, and they would also have died if facing TomMyyY in melee, for example.
(click to show/hide)

Edit : very recently, throwers with axes /daggers / shurikens, with a really good accuracy and excellent drawing speed, are actually a big threat in 1v1. Damn you Zibi.
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: Adamar on December 17, 2013, 01:56:55 pm
cav is a unit class not Rambo assassin backstabba :p

They do it a lot though, they just turn on stealth mode.
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: Prpavi on December 17, 2013, 01:58:04 pm
can't read cuz greek duuurp

oki you play 2 melee classes, you're not and archer or xbow so bugger off  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: Kafein on December 17, 2013, 02:00:15 pm
cav is a unit class not Rambo assassin backstabba :p

What is archery then ? To me it sounds like cav isn't supposed to do anything at all. And it largely is the case ingame (EU meta)
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 17, 2013, 02:43:31 pm
ht ...what else.
<3 u
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: Hirlok on December 17, 2013, 04:06:14 pm

(on battle server, and mainly because of my ping)

in general:


...oho, forgot throwers who often have the same reach as my bow and same or better accuracy at a distance... LOL
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: Sir_Senior_the_Eldest on December 17, 2013, 04:44:14 pm
Hi, I'm Senior and a dedicated arbalester. You might know me out of movies like "Where is this sneaky xbow bastard" or "13 bolts 13 dead bodies".

To have a recognizable impact on a battle server with such a slow reloading animation, I figured out an algorithm for my targets:

Primary target: Some veery skilled player on the top of the enemy scoreboard. No matter if it's a ranged, 2h hero or cav.
Secondary targets: Other ranged guys, as they are the direct danger for a  (reloading) xbower. You can see Inf or cav charge you but you cannot always see bolts.
                                Also they are usually low armoured, so good candidates for 1 shots

So there is no wonder, why archers or in general ranged guys suffer a death from bolts.



Counter for xbow is btw no specific class. The most important thing for a crossbowman is cover and time. If you take him one or two of these things, he is just a 1her.
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: Tyr_ on December 17, 2013, 05:31:34 pm
(click to show/hide)

With 24/15 I use a shield, but still, I rather charge into a piker than into an archer that is aware of me, it is ridiculous. I am using a champ mamluk and have 70 body armor myself, but an archer can take up to 30% of my own HP and the one of my horse with a stab from some cheap 1h or take ~50% of the mamluks HP with a headshot (not to mention mendro 1 shoting it with a jarid, but well, at least he has 10 pt), just using my speed against me. Anyone with more than 5 ath can easily dodge heavy horses whilst the light ones like destrier die withing 2 or 3 shots, so there is no chance getting close enough once they see you.
Also half of the archers i manage to get close to survive a slash in the had by my arab cav sword (8ps).

ps: I dont think 1h cav is too weak against archers or any other class, it is one of the most op classes around, especially playing with heavy gear, but it is retarded that polearmers & two handers offer easier/less-risky kills than archers.
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: Tindel on December 17, 2013, 05:38:05 pm
I think ranged is the best counter to ranged.

If more people played ranged we would not have this percieved problem with too much ranged.

Im definately thinking about starting to play ranged to deal with all this ranged, i think it will seriously change the situation.

Soon i will respec into ranged, soon.
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: San on December 17, 2013, 05:41:55 pm
I am glad ranged considers shielders to be such a threat ^~^

So nice.
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: NJ_Legion_Icedtea on December 17, 2013, 06:37:54 pm
tactics and formations...
oh wait
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: Macbeth3 on December 17, 2013, 06:42:27 pm
Well. Me personally, I'm both an Xbow user and a shielder at the same time. I can counter ranged, cav and have slight melee capabilities. But my main focus in battles is always and ALWAYS shooting down cav and other ranged. If other ranged spot me, I raise my shield and find a spot in cover to reload.

1 thing that tend to counter archers (and pure xbowers) are rondel-users with a shield and TONS of agi/athletics (like Bumbo_Jones)

*Edit* Also most types of cav (especially high armored horses and shield users) can really hunt down enemy ranged.

*Edit2* Also, this is my PERSONAL opinion. other people might have different experiences.
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: Tennenoth on December 17, 2013, 06:43:28 pm
My own incompetence.
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: Austrian on December 17, 2013, 06:54:35 pm
My own incompetence.
This. Ohh god this!  :evil:
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: Johammeth on December 17, 2013, 07:38:01 pm
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Pretty please?
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: jtobiasm on December 17, 2013, 07:40:08 pm
IF i could block, it would only be cav. Seeing as though I can't block it's agi shielders and cav.
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: masasa on December 17, 2013, 07:41:50 pm
Didn't read the thread so sorry if these have been suggested:

1. Bring back old lance angle and melee cav can kill HA's more easily. Right now it's too easy for HA's to avoid enemy cav since most are 1h cav and the remaining lance cav are gimped. You just end up rearing you horse too often when going for HA's and then dehorsed. Old lance angle would also reduce the amount of cav on servers because it would actually be fun as a cavalry to attack other cavalry, instead of avoiding them and going for infantry backstabs. Downside is that remaining cav would be more effective vs infantry.

2. Also nerf the amount of arrows they can carry or at least make it so they can't pick up arrows. Right now it's just spray and pray unlimited ammo gg.

3. Increase the armor/hp of non-armored horses so they can take more than 2 arrows when chasing HA's.
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: Rico on December 17, 2013, 07:47:37 pm
You need Masterwork Stones in the shape of a Jesus dildo crafted by the Knights Who Say Ni and consecrated during the legendary resistance of Unuzdaq Castle against a horde of robocops.

NOTE: Deadly for noone but bagge when thrown from the back of a Well Bred Donkey with 1 WPF while riding over a magically floating ladder above the eastern castle wall.


In Ni TS during the briefing:
- Oh my God, Masterwork Stones? Why would you buy them?
- We have them because they're the best for their FACES.
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: Kafein on December 17, 2013, 07:56:34 pm
I think ranged is the best counter to ranged.

If more people played ranged we would not have this percieved problem with too much ranged.

Im definately thinking about starting to play ranged to deal with all this ranged, i think it will seriously change the situation.

Soon i will respec into ranged, soon.

/thread
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: xxkaliboyx on December 17, 2013, 09:19:22 pm
1H cav has always been my weakness. If they catch you spawning late or alone, they are like flies on shit and will not leave you alone. It puts us both out of the whole game. Archers that focus on other archers is a close second.
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: Sharpe on December 18, 2013, 03:11:54 am
Battlefield Awareness, when I start shooting things I don't pay attention to anything; its like having horse blinders on

And most of all Dev's and People QQing. Keep doing it mighty forum warriors!
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: karasu on December 18, 2013, 03:38:04 am
Counters me?

A decent player or an opportunistic prick. Sometimes both.
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: MountedRhader on December 18, 2013, 03:50:46 am
In my experience of siege, there are many corners to come around and much cover, thus ranged is more or less on par with melee. In DTV, ranged is only a problem on later waves of big open maps (which don't exist anymore). Now in battle.. it depends on the map. If it is a town or village, it's akin to siege, but when it comes to plains, forests, fields, deserts, etc. I put my faith in the shield as the best concrete counter to ranged.
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: oreshy on December 18, 2013, 04:06:42 am
<3 u

^^ .. well , we are just far too few.

if ht's like you, make, torost, pot, disney, rohyp & such other's would stick together in same team ... there were no arrows flying anymore.

(sry if i forgot a namely ht .. i know , there's a handful more nice ht's out there.)
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 18, 2013, 04:12:26 am
^^ .. well , we are just far too few.

if ht's like you, make, torost, pot, disney, rohyp & such other's would stick together in same team ... there were no arrows flying anymore.

(sry if i forgot a namely ht .. i know , there's a handful more nice ht's out there.)
You forgot the five other Braxlis than you.
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: Lethwin Far Seeker on December 18, 2013, 02:07:27 pm
Playing as heavy cav I feel in no way a counter to archers.  If they don't kill my horse getting up to them then they dodge around me hacking and slashing at it (or shotgunning) until they do.  Meanwhile I desperately flail about with my 1h cav sword animations achieving nothing.  Often the best way to take them down is just run them over a bunch but I feel like a dick doing that. 

Playing as an archer, cav isn't much of a threat to me unless they charge en masse for the reasons stated above.  Currently I find the greatest counter to me is a crossbow.  Shielders are not much of a problem because if they don't get hit by something else I can usually deal with them using my side arm.
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on December 18, 2013, 05:37:22 pm
Well, after my playing HA for a few weeks, I couldn't pick any counter really. It depends highly on the way you play. Personally, I always stuck rather close to the fighting and got therefore killed by a lot of random weapons.

But if you choose to play like an asshole - which some of our HAs obviously do - then there basicly is no counter.

Xbow reload is fucking slow and when you spot one aiming at you, I rarely got hit but my warhorse soaked the bolt and before he could fire again I was already far far away or harassed him during his reloading.

Other archers were probably the worst cuz they can spam as much as you can with a steady aim. But again, seeing the archers pocket - they rarely spread out a lot - gives you the means to stay away from them. Not to mention that my unloomed warhorse easily takes 8 and more arrows before it dies.

Infantry is only dangerous when you make a mistake in riding. They are useless.

My conclusion is that there is no real counter but if something has to be named then I say Archers for the spamming capabilities.

This is particularly for Horse Archer. That class is pretty strong imho.

The problem with HA and HX is that they don't control the flow of battle.  They can't capture flags.  So if flags were to spawn earlier in the round, they would be even more useless to the actual winning of rounds.  They soften up cavalry, and soften up ninjas who don't stick with their teammates, but they do jack shit for winning rounds (unless the enemy team is retarded).   

The best counter to archers we don't really utilize in game, and that's MotF.  If infantry are given an objective to fight over (territory) rather than "kill everyone" they can fight for ground.  Instead what we have now, is infantry choosing between camping behind a building for 3 minutes, or pushing up a hill to fight archers who are in a superior position. 
Title: Re: Ranged, what counters you best?
Post by: Ronin on December 18, 2013, 06:36:45 pm
The problem with HA and HX is that they don't control the flow of battle.  They can't capture flags.  So if flags were to spawn earlier in the round, they would be even more useless to the actual winning of rounds.  They soften up cavalry, and soften up ninjas who don't stick with their teammates, but they do jack shit for winning rounds (unless the enemy team is retarded).   

The best counter to archers we don't really utilize in game, and that's MotF.  If infantry are given an objective to fight over (territory) rather than "kill everyone" they can fight for ground.  Instead what we have now, is infantry choosing between camping behind a building for 3 minutes, or pushing up a hill to fight archers who are in a superior position.
I think they just fixed that with the current patch or are very close to fixing it.