cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Sanxus on December 06, 2013, 09:23:17 pm
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Alright, it started to annoy me very hard. Once I was happy, I lived in my hood, I was riding on mah pony all day everyday, coudn't stop it. But then, they stopped it! They ruined everything! LOLSTABERS! Pike, awlpike, long spear, or just a pitch fork. Those suckers can stab your horse from a side, and then swing their weapon like it weighs nothing and stop it like stabing from front. Ya all know what I'm talking about! U can't hide it!
Here is my fascinating, and brilliant and original idea. Make it impossible to move your weapon while making stab. For example, with pike you can stab a man standing like 4 meters away cuz of it's range, but you can also kill someone standing next to you, no matter it has 3 meters and weighs 3 kilos (or whatever the units are) but you still are able to stab the air and then swing that shit into your oponent. The same, but worse is with awlpike - faster and more deadly - lolstab is why it's the way it is. Without it knitler would be just a little prick normal player :P ;).
It affects 2h and 1h aswell, spamwhores with 1h lolstab wouldn't be OP, also that would make rondel dagger less annoying.
@haters: don't give me more infamy than I deserve just cuz I want to make this game playable...
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Stop being a douchebag.
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Interesting, a horseman complaining about polearm stabs.
@haters: don't give me more infamy than I deserve just cuz I want to make this game playable...
No, you deserve this minus. This is a bad idea that would make all stabbing weapons very, very shitty, and with that, combat would become collectively shittier. Polearm stab has always been the same so it is interesting that you start complaining about "lolstabers" now.
Granted, the pike and long spear are pretty crazy weapons. But here is a piece of advice; when that thing is swinging every which way, block down.
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But here is a piece of advice; when that thing is swinging every which way, block down.
Once you've blocked, hit back, and hit fast. He won't even be able to block if you do it right.
Btw. There is this place called Chamber of Tears for these kind of threads.
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I'm not talking about duel or shit like this (cuz pike is definitely not the weapon for it), but particularly bout strat where you got pierced by shitload of pikes at one second and can't do a shit. Maybe immobilizing is bad, but at least make it real enough and slow the movement down. Not the weapon speed, but character spin.
PS: so much hate ;_;
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Newmy old friend?
cause turning got hugely nerfed, it used to be almost as fast as you could do it, now you can easily make your camera outturn your polearm. This raises a different problem, but not with stabs.
I think whatcha want to do in strat is not charge into the pike/longspearmen. They are watching and waiting, there is nothing they ("we" actually since I tend to pike in strat if there are limited numbers of awlpikes and becs (leave that shit to the tryhards, they will cry if it runs out)) enjoy more than stabbing the shit out of your horse. Nice big armoured horse and rider, piked! And off course its funny to see the vultures on our team tear the rider and horse apart once hes stopped. Usually dont even go in for second stab if I stopped the horse amongst my teammates.
So watch out, a decent spearman will always try to get the front half of your horse even if you are passed him, because cav is fucking dangerous, us lifelong infantry dont like being horse doormats, we spend many hours stabbing dem horses, and even while defending myself from a gank I will try to pike any enemy horse that comes near.
Pitchfork shouldn't be a problem BTW: even 1hand cav can reach the pitchforker if you time it right. Ive seen many guys with pitchforks get 1hit by the massive ghost reach of 1handers: they fork the horse, as it rears the 1hcav releases a stab or overhead = dead farmer.
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Pike, awlpike, long spear, or just a pitch fork.
:oops:
Ya all know what I'm talking about! U can't hide it!
Of course I know what you're talking about. It's that Nordmen vs Balde battle earlier today, where you kept going for our village, trying to break ladders and was dehorsed and killed almost every time, by me or Lamerina. So now you're mad because we ruined your fun, poor baby :P
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Pikes aren't a big deal, they're fine, even with occasionally slightly silly turns you will have plenty of time to block down if you're infantry, and if you're cavalry, you're a shit cavalry player and deserve to get reared, I really wish strat used lighter horses (and lighter gear in general, if only the exp system there wasn't totally retarded) that way shit cav would die like flies and people who know how to ride wouldn't be limited to heavy horses due to them being the only ones there.
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He's probably right about Knitler tho :D
:oops:
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He's one of those kamikaze players in strategus battles. Him, Pandemona, Odysseus, Fifi.. can't remember others right now but there's quite a few. They just charge the enemy spawn whole time, no matter if they do something useful or not. Very skilled at ticket wasting :mrgreen:
He's probably right about Knitler tho
No he isn't. Awlpike isn't that easy to use. If you can do exceptionally well with it, you can do well with pretty much anything.
I find pitchfork way easier, probably because I'm used to it. Hitbox seems to be a lot bigger, shame that damage is a bit poor so glances can be quite common.
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No he isn't. Awlpike isn't that easy to use. If you can do exceptionally well with it, you can do well with pretty much anything.
maybe... but then, you are his bumboy atm and in his clan. Knitler runs from 1v1's all the time tho, so.... yeah, theres that. The main danger of Knitler is that he doesn't miss a single opportunity to stab someone when they arent able to fight back.
I put him in the same groub as Royans, Blackbow, Riddaren etc: VERY VERY good at killing people who cannot fight back.
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No he isn't. Awlpike isn't that easy to use. If you can do exceptionally well with it, you can do well with pretty much anything.
Wrong. Using the Awlpike to it's full extent requires some gimmick skill, ergo being able to up down stab at face hug range without getting disoriented or missing. Which in itself is not even that hard to learn anyway. Even without that though, the awlpike hits even when stabbing straight or side to side until pretty low reaches, so if you do just that and resort to overheads for the very close encounters, you have a 36p extremely long and fast stab which is also okay in a 1 vs 1. Walking around point and clicking with the current bullshit stab mechanics is not hard by any measure. Very mediocre players get top notch scores all of a sudden by going Awlpike.
Now if you are a half decent player and you learn to kick and facehug stab, you turn the awlpike into an excellent 1 vs 1 weapon, while it becomes godly in supporting roles. Two-directional polearms are simply the most OP weapons in the game with the current state of ridiculously OP stabs. Awlpike and Long Awlpike stand out a little more due to their hard to gauge reach and incredible damage values.
If you see someone using an Awlpike you should halve his score and number of kills to get to the numbers the player actually deserves based on his skill, the rest is the weapon. Of course Knitler and Heibai are top notch players and they would be with any weapon, but the fact that they usually go twice the kills of most the other classes is simply because the weapon is ridiculous. Especially on Strat where the high armour makes the 36p the best thing. I found today that on my swashbuckler character I was able to boost my k/d immensely by switching from a Military Hammer to an Awlpike with 20 carry over wpf.
I am not sure what the OP is blabbering about, but I agree with the sentiment. Stabs in general are fucking OP and it is probably my number one source of frustration and GTXs these days. Can't be arsed with all the two-directional bandwagon scrubs. It's the biggest problem present in the game and should be fixed asap.
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maybe... but then, you are his bumboy atm and in his clan. Knitler runs from 1v1's all the time tho, so.... yeah, theres that. The main danger of Knitler is that he doesn't miss a single opportunity to stab someone when they arent able to fight back.
I put him in the same groub as Royans, Blackbow, Riddaren etc: VERY VERY good at killing people who cannot fight back.
You already noticed that I joined Blood Legion... No, I'm not Knitler's bumboy. I joined the clan for different reasons, mainly to be able to share some looms and play in the same team with Switch.
@Teeth: You are right. Players use awlpike in strat because there's so much plate. For the same reason they use Bec, Morningstar and blunt/pierce one handers. But alwpike is my preferred weapon because it's good against cavalry as well and there's ton of heavy cav in every strat battle.
You're probably right about awlpike abuse mechanics being easy to learn and stuff... but the thing is, there isn't that many players who can pull that off every single time. I don't know how to do it, for example. And there's many players like me around. For me, learning that is just as hard as anything else melee related. Just another "technique" which shouldn't be possible in the first place. Like hiltslash, bumpslash and stuff like that.
If you ask me, currently there's nothing easier than playing kinngrimm's build. High AGI/ATH/WM build with 4/5 PS and steel pick. You just need basic feinting skills to be successful with it. You have auto block (shield), massive damage output, high speed which allows you to abuse clipping/collision issues this engine has. Just make sure you position yourself properly to avoid being hit or kicked while being inside opponent model and you're set. They buffed shielders so much during last few years, I find it disgusting when anyone complains about 2h, polearms or 1h without shield. It's not OP because it still takes way more skill than to play a darn shielder, who has bash, forcefield, speed if goes agi, 360 block. Not to mention that playing a shielder completely denies directional blocking mechanics which makes this game so unique.
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Want to add something important, so I'll put it in separate post. What you over the top pro players forget, is that there's very few like you around. Game shouldn't be balanced around you and your knowledge of the game. For average and bellow average player having autoblock (shield) is huge advantage. Those players can't abuse awlpike or anything similar because they can't block reliably, they can't lolstab, they can't "knit". I'm sick of seeing weapons nerfed just because few players are performing very well using those weapons.
You know very that you can kill same amount as lawlpiker, piker, so called swashbuckler, using katana, longsword, danish sword, great maul, even using a bloody pitchfork. That is because you know how to play. But most still aren't up to that level.
Basically, you're mad because players use your weapon and it's not cool anymore so like typical hipster you want it nerfed so you could keep using it only by yourself. Well, I've got a solution for you. Use a pitchfork like I do, no one is using it beside FOB peasants. Fuma uses Trident, me Pitchfork. Viking_Berserk used it a bit, but that's all. Find some unique weapon, doesn't have to be strong. You'll do well with it.
Edit: If you want to nerf stabby polearms, than fix lolstab, face-hug stab mechanics. But don't nerf weapon stats because something is wrong with animation. Because that's bullshit. I don't lolstab and don't deserve nerf just because someone found a way to abuse said weapon. I use that weapon like it's supposed to be used, from range. No reverse attack bullshit, proper weapon control mechanics without secret buffs that come with reversed.
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Stabs in general are fucking OP
Agreed here, but I don't think the awlpike is OP. Despite kicks and nudges its still a two directional weapon and simply doesn't have the same 1v1 power of other four directional weapons, especially when faced with a shielder.
Stabs have gone to shit lately, where they (possibly?) are more balanced but just unpleasant to fight against.
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My weapon, wat? I have never owned or played with an Awlpike apart from a few sessions where I grabbed one from the armoury. Last time I consistently used a two-directional was late 2011- early 2012 before any turn rate nerf was even implemented. I used the Ashwood Pike that cost 2k (lol) back then. That is when Chase used the Awlpike and Warlord was in our clan also using the Ashwood. That was when you could be getting ganked by like 6 people and all of them would be reluctant to let go of downblock because they would never know who you were going to hit next. Zipping around wiggling that thing all over the place. You could side wiggle to not glance instead of up down, but there were no insta-stabs. The stab always hit at the same part into the animation. Good times. That was my first venture into stabby support polearm and I never went back. Since the turn rate nerf hit I've went longspear - hoplite - pike, but never the awlpike.
Edit: If you want to nerf stabby polearms, than fix lolstab, face-hug stab mechanics. But don't nerf weapon stats because something is wrong with animation.
Exactly what I have been suggesting ever since the stab tweaks. Last patch tried to fix the OP stabs by nerfing certain stab weapons, including Awlpike to, no avail. Stabs in general are the problem, Awlpike and other two-directional are simply the most OP because they have the best combination of high reach, high speed and high damage stabs.
All in all you underestimate the average skill level these days. Most players can actually block simple attacks reliably and an awlpike is a much too viable weapon in the hands of many.
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Well I hope they'll fix that, but they usually choose easier, more convenient way and that's stat nerf. They nerfed 2H stab so many times, partially because it's truly awfully long but mostly because of wiggly lolstab. They couldn't find a fix for that. Same will probably happen with awlpike.
Edit: I used longevity of 2H lolstab all the time, but rarely its wiggly nature to avoid blocks. Then I joined duel server couple of times, and one time there was Merc_Tyr. He used GGS at that time. Let's just say that duel was awful for my side because I was constantly blocking down (wasn't and still aren't good at chambering stabs). He stabbed me 100 times per second. Just stab, nothing else. That is why things get nerfed, because players find a way to do something they shouldn't be able to do. Retarded 2H feints, spin stabs, everything goes into that very category.
I'm for realism, always were and always will be. Might never be better than average player but besides this nasty disease called backpedaling, I try to play as proper as I could. What means proper? Proper means fixing on your enemy like in actual fight, not turning your back to him to pull of some bullshit move that never works in reality. Not looking like complete moron, by performing so called feinting which looks like you want to chop off your own head with a blade... stuff like that isn't something I do or want to get good at. Because that shit breaks immersion and I like this game for being medieval simulator mostly, not just as "look at me, I've got k/d of 20 and 100 kills. I'm the man..."
Edit: Therefore, respect for Khorin, respect for Logen, respect for Butan, respect for Kastu. All you other fancy "mechanics" abusers can crawl under a rock and die. Players I mentioned chamber block all the time and that's their thing. No retardo feints, no facehug bullshit, nothing of the sort. And still rocking the server. That's why they got my respect.
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They nerfed 2H stab so many times, partially because it's truly awfully long but mostly because of wiggly lolstab. They couldn't find a fix for that.
Um, didn't they change it somehow over the years, though? My memory isn't very clear, but 2h stab was shorter both in duration and reach as far as I remember. It's possible to make the stab shorter, no?
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I believe it's a combination of things, especially with the high piercing polearm stab. Very high damage, the ability to choose whether to hit early or late if need be, great natural reach, great synergy with kicking, and stopping opponents in their tracks briefly are all great boons to the class. A few of these are quite good, but put all of them together and a case can be made about how good they are in relation to other weapons. It makes charging them quite dangerous since even a poor stab that barely does any damage can screw you over.
They can be hit out of their stun or facehugged, but early/late hits and kicking are options that can be used against these tactics. A group of polearms with 1 or 2 of another melee class are probably the most devastating at many v 1 in a melee clash. 2 directions isn't that bad when you take into account that most weapons are only going to use 2-3 swing directions in a situation outside of shortswords and spears.
I think the stun and 2 directions are good enough weaknesses for high tier weapons. I think awlpike/long awlpike series are some of the best, but not OP if that makes any sense, but I can see how one can argue either way. Definitely a performance booster for most.
Also @Leshma, I think a 4PS build 1h is equivalent to an 8PS build 1h, just good at different things. The combination of taking a lot of hits with your body and shield makes the build great for simply trading hits and coming out alive. Much better in clusters, too, while the agi is better on the outskirts where there's a bit of room. The shield also usually accounts for 1/3-1/2 of your overall weight, and twitch blocking with a shield if you let go too much just gets you hit. I think low stats balanced shielder like 18/18 is the hardest, getting much better with 21/21.
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Sanxus may be biased, but his point is correct : all stabby weapons have bullshit mechanics, making them much more powerful than they should be.
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Alright, it started to annoy me very hard. Once I was happy, I lived in my hood, I was riding on mah pony all day everyday, coudn't stop it. But then, they stopped it! They ruined everything! LOLSTABERS! Pike, awlpike, long spear, or just a pitch fork. Those suckers can stab your horse from a side, and then swing their weapon like it weighs nothing and stop it like stabing from front. Ya all know what I'm talking about! U can't hide it!
Here is my fascinating, and brilliant and original idea. Make it impossible to move your weapon while making stab. For example, with pike you can stab a man standing like 4 meters away cuz of it's range, but you can also kill someone standing next to you, no matter it has 3 meters and weighs 3 kilos (or whatever the units are) but you still are able to stab the air and then swing that shit into your oponent. The same, but worse is with awlpike - faster and more deadly - lolstab is why it's the way it is. Without it knitler would be just a little prick normal player :P ;).
It affects 2h and 1h aswell, spamwhores with 1h lolstab wouldn't be OP, also that would make rondel dagger less annoying.
@haters: don't give me more infamy than I deserve just cuz I want to make this game playable...
Let me get this straight...
You complain about getting killed by polearm stab while on horseback?
Dude srsly?
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Alright, it started to annoy me very hard. Once I was happy, I lived in my hood, I was riding on mah pony all day everyday, coudn't stop it. But then, they stopped it! They ruined everything! LOLSTABERS! Pike, awlpike, long spear, or just a pitch fork. Those suckers can stab your horse from a side, and then swing their weapon like it weighs nothing and stop it like stabing from front. Ya all know what I'm talking about! U can't hide it!
Here is my fascinating, and brilliant and original idea. Make it impossible to move your weapon while making stab. For example, with pike you can stab a man standing like 4 meters away cuz of it's range, but you can also kill someone standing next to you, no matter it has 3 meters and weighs 3 kilos (or whatever the units are) but you still are able to stab the air and then swing that shit into your oponent. The same, but worse is with awlpike - faster and more deadly - lolstab is why it's the way it is. Without it knitler would be just a little prick normal player :P ;).
It affects 2h and 1h aswell, spamwhores with 1h lolstab wouldn't be OP, also that would make rondel dagger less annoying.
@haters: don't give me more infamy than I deserve just cuz I want to make this game playable...
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That's exactly what I've always thought would stop lolstab: making it impossible to turn / move the weapon as you stab
That would make stabs pretty much useless.
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Yeah, and as a way to balance stabs reliable downblock would have to go. Because in reality you can't turn as much but you can't block stabs as easily like in cRPG.
Also, stabs from historical point of view were most effective way to kill your opponent. For those who ask why are stabs so powerful and how it makes no sense.
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STAB irl is not blockable without a shield. You can deflect it, you can chop down at opponents weapon or wrists/forearms, but just stopping it dead like in M&B is redunculous. So if you wanna nerf stabs by making them unable to turn, make them only chamberable. As Leshman said, stabs where THE way to kill anyone who had even thick leathers on, forget about ever harming an enemy in plate with ANY kind of slash or cut.
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To be fair it's not like you could block any attack, even though deflecting a thrust is probably far harder than deflecting a swing. I'd love for blocking to be removed and the chambering window made bigger.
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To be fair it's not like you could block any attack
why not?
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To be fair it's not like you could block any attack...
Why not?
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pesant with pichfork and arena shield stab plated charger to face, hores continue and trample and kill pesant
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pesant with pichfork and arena shield stab plated charger to face, hores continue and trample and kill pesant
Hm, wouldn't it be truly interesting if polearms occasionally glanced on cav, depending on their armour? It would be a horrible mechanic but it would surely spice things up. Regarding this thread itself I think it should be moved to The Chamber of Tears.
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TO DA CHAMBA OF TEARZ!!
Seriosuly tho, lets start a thread about how 1handers used to trade off some offensive ability for the defensive side of being able to use a shield without losing 3 attack directions, and now they dont.
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In my opinion the solution to stabs in this game is to rework their glance thresholds - this applies to 2h, 1h, and polearm (so all melee weapons) :)
I'm not gonna sit here and say I know the exact solution or spout some half baked realism history stuff, but I do think many would agree that stabs are probably the animation that people complain about the most - from all weapon types now.
The trouble with stabs is that all weapons would behave differently when being thrust...most swords (1h and 2h) would bend under too much pressure especially at the wrong part of the thrust (exceptions to this of course is weapons like the estoc and some daggers which were made for thrusting as they have strong cross sections), and the issue of long weapons being able to stab someone super close to them is one that is infamous - by the time they chocked up enough to accomplish that, there would be a decent delay of time before they could readjust the weapon to use it at its full length again.
:arrow: So maybe its looking at the glance thresholds at the beginning and end of all stab animations, and looking at stab damage on flexible weapons, and looking at longer delay timers after a thrust attack by long weapons? Little things here and there - no knee jerk nerfs of course.
Anyhow that's my two cents, and I don't think any that was QQ or unfair.
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I find pitchfork way easier, probably because I'm used to it. Hitbox seems to be a lot bigger, shame that damage is a bit poor so glances can be quite common.
The hitbox is always just a straight line, no matter how the weapon looks. So the hitbox feeling bigger is only in your mind :P