cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Thomek on November 28, 2013, 11:36:59 am

Title: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: Thomek on November 28, 2013, 11:36:59 am
IDK if this is possible, but I guess it is, since there are mods who add and modify animations to warband. Perhaps we need an expert in the field to do it well? Anyone know anyone or anything about animating for warband?

1h Stab.
Good that it was buffed from almost uselessness, but right now it has become a long range, highly damaging near-insta attack. I guess it is "balanced" to 2h and pole broken animations, but this doesn't make it any less of a pain in the ass. It's a tad too fast, imo.

2h stab.
What is there to say? IMO main problem is the duration of the attack that makes it abusable. You have to block down for a very long time to be sure not to get hit.

Insta-pole swing.
This is just as serious problem as the above if not more. You have very long, very high damage weapons like the glaive and GLA. It seems to me that if the ping difference is high enough, or the other player has his technique down, you cannot see the swing release until you are hit.

Other solutions to the problem that circumvent animation-fixing:

*Slow down the poles and 2h across the board. Especially the long ones.
*Nerf 1h stab damage
*Nerf 2h stab damage.

But having non-glitchy animations would really solve it the best way.
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: Molly on November 28, 2013, 11:41:11 am
Prepare for the shitstorm and red lightsaber, Thomek :wink:
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: Thomek on November 28, 2013, 11:42:27 am
Yeah, attacking everyone is a wise move.. :P

It's just I feel c-rpg is often about those who can glitch, and those who can't atm.. Glitches should be fixed, but across the board, so it's fair for everyone.
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: Fartface on November 28, 2013, 11:53:31 am
As far as I know, Greatswords had a small dmg and speed nerf just a few months ago, and some of the poleaxes had a small dmg nerf, too.

So, don't mess up with the stats of ANY weapons please anymore for gods sake.

I agree that ALL stab animations are kind of broken though at the moment.

So, 1h and pole need their super fast insta hit removed, and 2h swords need a bit later and shorter connection time of the stab.

BTW, I am topping the score board for around 4 maps on EU1 right now, with my 18/18 lvl 29 1h/shield alt, mw italian sword and mighty 1h stab giev victory even over heavy lance cav, because, erm, the stab of the sword is longer than the lance stab  :rolleyes:
A good lancer will outreach you, but you should not forget if his timing is off he still has the horses head sticking out by far so the differance between your stab and his is actualy quite low. Just depends on your vs his movement.
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: BlueKnight on November 28, 2013, 12:16:57 pm
So many things have been done so many times with the animations to fix broken stabs. They are already 99 times better than they were if you consider old times' super-underground-stab and unnatural rotation etc. We should be thankful to devs for that.

Every time the stab attack was getting changed people were failing for 2 days with that attack, but after some time they were using it again like if nothing happened. People adjust to dynamic game changes and that's normal, therefore afaik unless we have different engine, we can't fix the stab problem so that it's unabusable.


Solution: wait for BG and see how devs handle this.

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Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: Thomek on November 28, 2013, 12:23:48 pm
I don't want to wait for BG to fix stuff like this. It's healthy for BG if c-rpg is still alive and breathing when BG launches, so I'm pushing for these changed.

The great question is how hard can it be, to fix these animations. Is there a lack of a decent animator?

What we should do is to simply get the best animator in the Warband modding community to look at it and fine tune it. Perhaps a mix of fine tuning animations as well as adjusting the speed of weapons.

I don't think there are big adjustments to be made, as the pole-swing is ALMOST visible, the 2h stab is ALMOST okay, and the 1h stab can be fixed and adjusted back just a little..

It's like adjusting little screws, not using a hammer here.. Small changes, and we are there.
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: Paul on November 28, 2013, 12:35:29 pm
Why don't we cut the chase and buff the katana instead?
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: BlueKnight on November 28, 2013, 12:51:19 pm
Small changes, and we are there.

There were already many many adjustments, however whining stays the same. Animations have been changed many times already (2h animations a few times and recently 1h animations, so that 1h seems more adjusted to it's damage dealing period or sth. (I don't know lol)).

I may be wrong because I don't know anything about how warband works, but I recall seeing it on forum somewhere that stabs are broken partially because of the game engine.
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: Haze_The_Hobo on November 28, 2013, 01:09:01 pm
Add pole stab spam to the list.
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: sF_Guardian on November 28, 2013, 01:51:38 pm
I do not agree with slowing down the weapons speed across the board, gameplay is sluggish enough already.
The rest of the suggestions seems fine to me.
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: Grumbs on November 28, 2013, 02:11:16 pm
As 3x melee guy I use all the different weapons now

1 hand stab is too quick, I can stab from what feels like actually inside the enemies model with Rondel and insta hit. Its not just the Rondel though, the stabs are too long and quick with good damage
2 hand stab has high damage for too long. If you get stabbed in the last part of the animation you should mostly just get the normal weapon stun rather than high damage. I don't think it should just glance though
The thing to remember with poles is that without the good stab a lot of the weapons will become obsolete. The swinging poles get awful stab damage and the stabbing poles either get no swings or really bad swing damage. This is why poles need to have a better stab than any other class in the game. 2 handers with stab have great swing animations as well as a decent stab damage/animation. 1 handers with a stab get the long right swing/overhead and all round very quick attacks at short-medium range, in addition to having a shield which deflects ranged hits and blocks multiple attack directions at once
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: Gurnisson on November 28, 2013, 03:07:04 pm
*Slow down the poles and 2h across the board. Especially the long ones.
*Nerf 1h stab damage
*Nerf 2h stab damage.

* The slow ones were already slowed down with a few points a few patches ago. People hate more on the likes of longsword, miaodao and long axe than the long, slow ones nowadays, from my experience. I don't see a reason to slow the slow ones even further.
* They just nerfed 1h stab damage last patch. Now that 1h nudge don't give a free hit anymore, the high speed and high damage stabs are not that dangerous. They still have the rather low reach (the most hard-hitting ones).
* Only problem with the 2h stab is how long it stays active. The high length is okay because of the slower speed and the lower damage compared to the faster 1h and polearm stabs.

Revert turn-nerf and remove the earlier active stab mechanics is my opinion. While it looked somewhat sillier, all stabs had to be turned a bit to not bounce, which meant no literally instant stabs.
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: Prpavi on November 28, 2013, 03:14:41 pm
slow them down a bit, shorten the duration, nerf pierce damage a bit.

have no idea how to achieve this techically but if it could be done would make this mod a happier place.
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: Leshma on November 28, 2013, 04:00:15 pm
Well, stabs are a bit silly all over the board but that's kinda realistic... swings are fine. You obviously haven't used DGS recently, but it's A LOT slower than it used to be in the good old glory days. Won't touch it ever again.

GLA is decent weapon but that's all. One handers are easy mode if you ask me, especially stabby ones (I like to stab) but I see many shielders spamming those fast one handers without stab. But truth to be told, blunt one handers are hell to fight against because knockdown rate on all blunt weapons with a proper build is way too high. Two handers more often kill from one hit so it seems one handers have higher knockdown rate, but it's the same.

All that said, I think weapons are balanced. Could be better but not much better. Some things will never change. For example, even though stabs are quite powerful these days (they were always powerful but people didn't use them as much), something ancient as spamitar is still one of the deadliest weapons you can use.

Katana is also quite powerful (not saying this because I lost to RasFrenzY). In DTV I have a really hard time blocking Katana thrust from Weeaboos even though anticipate it. If you want to see how some weapons can be spammed, play DTV a bit. Bots can spam faster than most players around here.

Only thing I would "nerf" is spinning. Hate it and everyone is doing it these days. Turn rate nerf didn't do jack shit, it should be reverted. But we badly need spin speed to become dependable on AGI stat because currently this is just silly. Every player has heard that high mouse sensitivity is a way to go and adjusted to it. Now everyone (especially shielders) spin around like ballerinas most of the time.
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: Thomek on November 28, 2013, 04:13:08 pm
* The slow ones were already slowed down with a few points a few patches ago. People hate more on the likes of longsword, miaodao and long axe than the long, slow ones nowadays, from my experience. I don't see a reason to slow the slow ones even further.
* They just nerfed 1h stab damage last patch. Now that 1h nudge don't give a free hit anymore, the high speed and high damage stabs are not that dangerous. They still have the rather low reach (the most hard-hitting ones).
* Only problem with the 2h stab is how long it stays active. The high length is okay because of the slower speed and the lower damage compared to the faster 1h and polearm stabs.

Revert turn-nerf and remove the earlier active stab mechanics is my opinion. While it looked somewhat sillier, all stabs had to be turned a bit to not bounce, which meant no literally instant stabs.

I agree turn nerf took away some rather cool and fancy moves, and the old lolstab required a little skill to pull off..  There's a price though and that is more wild spamming of long ass weapons, more hiltslashing. Generally. More turnrate benefits longer weapons, because they can threaten and hit a huge area around them faster.  (pi x r2)

But this has always been the case..

Off topic:
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Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: Herkkutatti666 on November 28, 2013, 04:15:50 pm
Finally someone agrees "insta attack" aka instastab shit needs to be removed!
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: Ronin on November 28, 2013, 04:29:39 pm
Very good suggestion actually.

I believe it is not the animation that causes this for 1h and 2h, it is the coded stuff which decides when these weapons to hit and when not during their attack. 1h animation was always the same, tydeus said he changed it's sweetspots so 1h thrusts gained the trait of dealing full damage at the very end and very beginning of their animations. Which made them both fastest (early in the animation) and longest (lately in the attacking animation). So why not just play with those codes again? There is no need for a new animation as the current one looks decent. This solution can also be applied to 2h thrusts. Same logic.

Polearm thrusts, I am not really sure how this works. It feels like some weapons have this and some don't. It feels much more easier to do it with an awlpike rather than an ashwood pike (without a shield). They have similiar length and ashwood is faster, but awlpike feels better somehow. I don't really know what is the reason to this, maybe I just feel it that way. So I can't think much of a solution because I don't know what is causing it.

On the other hand, changing weapon speeds is a big no-no. This will not fix the problem, it will create new problems among items and will also make other attacks slower, which I'm sure it is not the intended effect.

Final note: One should understand this isn't about game-balance. It is more about removing the ability of flying from the game if it would be existed for each class. That would be a balanced (since it applies to everyone) but a completely retarded feature. The common point is, both are "retarded" features and need to be removed. Flying and instastabs.
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: Tydeus on November 28, 2013, 05:16:52 pm
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You're oversimplifying the issue Thomek.

Lets see if I can paint a picture of how thrusts work and what exactly is contributing to the weirdness that are thrusts in Warband. Oh, and I'm sorry beforehand for not being able to simplify the reading, it's just the nature of the beast and is necessary to fully understanding the situation we find ourselves in.

To start, lets cover some basics, if you fancy yourself a more knowledged person, feel free to skip the next two paragraphs. First, every attack animation is broken down to three shorter animations, each with its own unique properties. When you click your left mouse button to attack, you're put into an attack's ready animation that has a base duration of .35 seconds(before being affected by wpf), once you release your left mouse button you enter the release animation. The base duration of the release animation varies from weapon to weapon and from attack type to attack type, I believe the 1h thrust is .62 seconds and polearms are .6 seconds. For the 2h release, I'm unsure as to what the current duration is, as I know it has changed in the past. Immediately upon entering the release animation, your weapon becomes collidable, meaning it can get stuck on walls or damage players.

To elaborate on how this works, here's a bit of information. Every weapon is essentially a straight bar that originates and extends out from the same position and orientation in the hands that weapons have, its length is solely decided by the weapon length stat. People complain about overswing/thrust hitboxes, but this is why those complaints are weird to understand technically, as being anything other than the product of lag. Only players have "hitboxes"(capsules really, here (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/24876970/cRPG%20Stuff/HitCapsules.PNG)'s what they look like), to clear up a common misunderstanding. To land a hit, you simply need to have the weapon collision bar intersect any part of a player hit capsule. It's a really simple system, but that's what makes it so great.

Now that you understand what it is that allows one player to hit another, lets look at how you can actually damage them. Since damage is so complicated, I'm going to skip the parts that I think most people already know and since Thomek focused on thrusts, which also happen to be the easiest to explain, I'm only going to talk about those.

Ignoring the more intuitive and widely known portions of the damage formula, there are two things I think that are really worth mentioning when talking about thrust damage. First of course are sweetspots, but the quieter, more covert, and sometimes grossly underestimated yet equally as devilish mechanic, is speed bonus. I'll explain speed bonus first since it's technically more simplistic.

Again, still focusing solely on thrusts, your speed bonus is found by looking at two player's(the attacker and the guy getting hit) speed relative to each other, along the x, z world plane(height seems to be ignored). Without getting technical, I'll just say that the level of damage gains due to the high ceiling, is massive. A really good speed bonus(two players running towards each other on flat terrain) could amount to a 40-50% increase in raw damage! I'd wager that the average speed bonus on thrusts is probably more like a 20% bonus in raw damage, and higher for certain weapons(awlpike), due to the way players fight with and against them. This is huge, we're talking several points in power strike, huge.

Switching to thrust sweetspots, we'll begin to see why it's so hard to find a happy medium between early hitting thrusts, and late hanging thrusts. The most important thing to keep in mind about thrust sweetspots, is that it is found solely by looking at when in the release animation a weapon's collision bar intersects a hit capsule. "When" is defined by how far a player has progressed through the entirety of the release animation. So if your weapon's collision bar intersects a hit capsule on frame 10 of a 20 frame long release animation, you hit at 50% through the total animation length.

Thrust sweetspots are broken up into five sections. Progressing in order from the start of the animation to the finish we have the lower-outer, lower-inner, the part we generally refer to as the actual "sweetspot", an upper-inner, and an upper-outer section. The outer sections deal zero damage, while the "sweetspot" deals 100% damage. The inner sections of the sweetspot range from 100% to 0% raw damage depending upon where you hit. This is an image cmp posted explaining the different sections of the thrust sweetspots.
(click to show/hide)

Now that I've explained how things work, you might have noticed some problems with the system. Most importantly, that sweetspots are decided by progression relative to the whole duration. And the "whole duration" varies significantly due to differences in weapon speeds and to a lesser extent, wpf as well. Some slower weapons are able to allow a player to slowly turn their thrusts into player more than others because the weapon stats have coincidentally given a weapon a high turn speed:weapon speed ratio. But keep in mind, a high turn speed:weapon speed ratio results in not being able to hit an opponent as early with a high damaging thrust(it's a slower weapon, thus the total animation's duration is increased, this results in needing more time to reach the 35% progression allowing a player to deal 100% damage).

To get back to the individual animations themselves, we need to focus again on the simplicity of the weapon collision bars and player hit capsules. Because the system is so simple, damage doesn't have any direct relation to what actually happens in the animation itself. What your character's arm is doing, in no way affects the amount of damage you can deal. We could change the animation so it only has 1 frame for the entire ~.6 second duration and thrusts would be every bit as damaging as they are now.

The way I see it, there is only one reason(but two perspectives) you should ever consider editing an animation. This is to make sure it's intuitive to use and understand. It's one of only 4 basic attack directions in the game, it has to be intuitive. I recently edited the 1h thrust(with a very minor adjustment to the polearm animation) specifically because proper use of the animation was unintuitive and required prior knowledge as to what the appropriate method of use was(turning into your swing as a means to delay when you hit. Remember, sweetspots are separate from what happens during an animation, damage is found by progression through the total duration). The second part of this, is to make the visuals represent more closely what players can expect from damage.

I believe, with the exception of the polearm thrust, where the arms appear to extend forward slower, but for a longer period of time(thus slightly harder to distinguish sweetspot locations visually), we are already where we need to be. The problem, is that due to previously mentioned mechanics, there exists large variation in damage outcomes as well as practical uses, which are generally referred to under a single term(concept).

My conclusion? Abandon ship and start from scratch. My opinion is that sweetspots and thrust durations probably shouldn't be so easily affected as they are by such things as weapon speed and weapon proficiency. Speed bonus shouldn't vary as drastically as it does. That is, damage modifiers from speed should probably be cut in half. Don't have some thrusts originate near head level while others below the waist, as long as the head remains as the target hit capsule for maximizing damage.

I'm sure there's more I could add, but at this point I'm rather exhausted from writing and I doubt many people will actually read this as is.
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: karasu on November 28, 2013, 05:38:02 pm
Thanks for the explanation, worth the time spent reading.  :D
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: Molly on November 28, 2013, 05:44:51 pm
Yep, read it too.
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: San on November 28, 2013, 05:50:15 pm
I believe it's okay for animations to have quirks such as easily hitting a certain location on the body.

After looking at the sweetspot image, I am still somewhat puzzled why we have such a fast sweetspot progression in the initial phases of the animation. Once it starts, it quickly speeds past 50%, causing high PS/speed bonus factors to heavily affect swings. I think having a more lenient ramp up angle with tighter sweetspots would be better, since you can easily avoid glancing even at only at 1/4 of your animation with the lower soak factors and high damages. In other games I've played, the best sweetspots have narrow timings with a wider sourspot range.

The problem I have with late "active" attacks is that you can't ever be sure that the attack would glance near the end if you're running in to intercept. If you wait too long and the opponent misses, that gives him ample opportunity to get in another attack before yours comes out, especially if it's another stab. I think there should be a little more delay after an attack fully completes (missing or hitting an opponent, not getting your attack blocked).
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: Thomek on November 28, 2013, 07:02:27 pm
ok thanks for the writeup Tydeus.

Ok let's talk about 2h from a practical perspective, and like San says for thrusts, since they are so long, and give the impression of being a finesse move (as animations) wouldn't it be more appropriate if the sweetspot was smaller and started later and ended earlier?

Would make it harder to hit someone close to you without bouncing. (Unless you wiggle)

Such a long range attack should perhaps not be that good at short range, and should not deal full damage at long range, when your arms are all extended and your body must prepare to break the attack..

Something like this: But theory is one thing, this should simply be tested a lot until it makes more sense..

A bit softer damage response, a narrower sweetspot for thrusts.
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Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: Teeth on November 28, 2013, 07:13:40 pm
Ganking was already too strong now that everybody can block and whenever there was a support polearm or 2h in the gank it would be very difficult to survive for long because of their long, teammate friendly attacks. Now every class has a bazillion reach, superfast attack, aka the stab, and fighting superior numbers is almost impossible.

The stab is accurate, fast, and high damage as it is usually pierce, it outshines the other directions quite often. It feels like you equalized each stab as far as late hitting goes to the 2h stab, which was in my opinion the fucked up one. 1h stab needed a late hitting buff to polearm level and 2h needed a late hitting nerf to polearm level, polearm was fine as it was. I think it would be a lot more intuitive if a stab would not deal a fuck ton of damage on those last 10 cms of extension. It seems to me that the damage from a stab comes partly from continuing to push when the tip has made contact, which the last bit of reach does not allow you to.

Which means I agree with that ^. I didn't address early hitting problems but I think those definitely exist as well. Whatever nerfs stabs so I won't have to curse at the screen whenever I meet an awlpike scrub.
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: HUtH on November 28, 2013, 07:41:32 pm
There's really something wrong with long polearms swings, true
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: Tydeus on November 28, 2013, 08:20:21 pm
Although changing the sweetspot is probably the best bet for crpg, it's by no means a perfect solution. The problem with this, is that you're stuck with counter-intuitive thrusts all over again(not that what we have now is perfect) since the animations won't accurately reflect the sweetspots. Ideally what you'd do, is start with an animation that is paced properly, so that the arm movement and speed in game is reflective of what the real action would look like in a fight, then create the sweetspot around that. While the 2h thrust might be realistic in shape, the speed of the thrust seems incredibly slow to me. The only way to fix that, would be to edit the animation.

It wouldn't exactly be all that difficult to change the animations to reflect a much faster arm extension, just a little bit of trial and error until you figure out what looks the best. Of course, if you keep forcing all three animations to adhere to the same sweetspot, you're likely going to end up with an unsatisfying finished product where some animations simply don't fit certain parts of the sweetspot.

Still, having said all this, you've only ended up addressing part of the issue(assuming any changes were actually done properly). Speed bonus still remains a major factor in deciding when and how much damage any given player can do with a thrust.

It feels like you equalized each stab as far as late hitting goes to the 2h stab, which was in my opinion the fucked up one. 1h stab needed a late hitting buff to polearm level and 2h needed a late hitting nerf to polearm level, polearm was fine as it was. I think it would be a lot more intuitive if a stab would not deal a fuck ton of damage on those last 10 cms of extension.
When I changed the animations, I was really focusing on just evening the playing field and making the 1h thrust intuitive to use. I showed in another thread how the last 25% of the 2h thrust animation actually falls outside of the 100% sweetspot. To be honest, when talking about what sweetspots should look like, I believe the inner spots should be a near verticle incline, rather than extending their duration. Simply shorten everything.
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: MURDERTRON on November 28, 2013, 09:14:00 pm
Buff long voulge IMO.
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: Grumbs on November 29, 2013, 08:43:05 pm
How is tweaking chamber speed as a balancing tool? Can't you make chambering slower so you slow down 1 hand stabs, rather than tweaking the sweetspots

I remember when I first started 2 hand stab was easier to use as well, in a patch it seemed to change so vertical movement became faster than horizontal. Can't you tweak things like that as well, make it so there is more skill involved in aiming stabs?
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: Kafein on November 29, 2013, 11:21:25 pm
Try it at home : long arming sword vs long axe, both supposedly 97 speed rating weapons. Stand still facing each other at sufficiently low distance for both weapons to hit and tap RMB at the exact same time. Guess who will always hit first.

This kind of comparison becomes hilarous with Glaive versus basically anything below speed rating 100.
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: Rebelyell on November 29, 2013, 11:33:44 pm
Try it at home : long arming sword vs long axe, both supposedly 97 speed rating weapons. Stand still facing each other at sufficiently low distance for both weapons to hit and tap RMB at the exact same time. Guess who will always hit first.

This kind of comparison becomes hilarous with Glaive versus basically anything below speed rating 100.
wow if I understand you properly you do not understand math

it does not matter how long weapon is because angular velocity will be always the same for weapons with similar speed
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: Tydeus on November 30, 2013, 12:09:48 am
it does not matter how long weapon is because angular velocity will be always the same for weapons with similar speed
That assumes weapons are swung with the same angle and motion, which they aren't.

I haven't ever actually tested this, but I've been thinking about it for a while. He could very well be right, due to where the fists are located during swings. This should only work if you're standing at nearly point blank range, close enough for your fists in the polearm animation to just barely miss an opponent. I never tested this because the only likely fix, is differing amounts of damage based on where you hit with your weapon. If you're a few feet away, everything acts as normal, so it's really not a huge deal.
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: Kafein on November 30, 2013, 03:09:48 am
I think the problem with polearm swing speed is tricky. First, polearms seem to have the animation in which the weapon reaches maximum extension the quickest. In other words, turning into your swings is much more efficient with a long polearm, as other categories perhaps won't glance when not yet inside their sweetspot, but will probably miss due to poor reach. Second, polearm animations seem to be skipping frames and are generally jerky compared to smooth 2h or 1h swings, hence why I often find myself lacking time to block a polearm after the swing is released, even though there's no real problem doing that against fast 1h or 2h.
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: Tibe on November 30, 2013, 09:16:26 am
Recent months I really havent concerned myself with the 2h stab anymore like I used to. Thats because 1h stab is gamebreakingly good and the stabby poles are extremely frustrading to fight against. It really makes me ask, whats up with the stabs in this game? Why is it so hard to make them descent? I mean we have been arguing about them for years now and things just keep getting worse, not better.
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: Kafein on November 30, 2013, 01:38:52 pm
Recent months I really havent concerned myself with the 2h stab anymore like I used to. Thats because 1h stab is gamebreakingly good and the stabby poles are extremely frustrading to fight against. It really makes me ask, whats up with the stabs in this game? Why is it so hard to make them descent? I mean we have been arguing about them for years now and things just keep getting worse, not better.

People got used to how unwordly broken the 2h stab is, and now that 1h stab was partially buffed closer to the state of the 2h stab, people realise it's broken. Derp.
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: Legs on November 30, 2013, 08:16:16 pm
With the recent changes to 1h and polearm overhead attack speed, the 2h overhead attack is now underpowered by comparison.

Please correct this imbalance as soon as possible.

P.S. the rest of this thread is probably dumb, idk because I didn't read it.
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: Elindor on November 30, 2013, 08:50:48 pm
Probably just need to nerf stabs all around since I imagine most would agree it's the most unrealistic and broken attack for all weapon types.
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: San on November 30, 2013, 09:09:20 pm
With the recent changes to 1h and polearm overhead attack speed, the 2h overhead attack is now underpowered by comparison.

Please correct this imbalance as soon as possible.

P.S. the rest of this thread is probably dumb, idk because I didn't read it.
2h overhead does look like it's underwhelming, but I can't really say how the numbers correlate to how fast the overhead should move visually. + Almost every 2hander I fight never uses overheads so I'm just going off of memory here.
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: Lecram on November 30, 2013, 09:58:09 pm
The think ist hat all stabs are op 2h Stab is nerft already (stun when blocked) and you can not AIM so high like polearm,1h or down like polearm, 1h stab the only gold think is the range and the dmg for the 2h swords
But hat is my opion
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: Lecram on November 30, 2013, 10:06:29 pm
Another think is the Speed of weapons for example a polearm weapon with 97speed is another Speed as a 1h sword with the same speed.So you cant say that my 1h sword with 97 Speed habe the same speed as my 2h sword

But that is my opion
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: Rebelyell on November 30, 2013, 11:17:59 pm
2h overhead does look like it's underwhelming, but I can't really say how the numbers correlate to how fast the overhead should move visually. + Almost every 2hander I fight never uses overheads so I'm just going off of memory here.
you almost always hit something else than target with 2h overhead
problem is not that big with shorter 2h weapons
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: BlueKnight on December 01, 2013, 01:07:11 am
you almost always hit something else than target with 2h overhead
problem is not that big with shorter 2h weapons

Bobby means that your weapon tends to bounce on the ground each time you do&miss an overhead, and as you can adjust the overhead with turning when you are polearmer and 1h, 2h overhead tends to behave like if you had a rubbersword and bounce back up which usually gives the enemy enough time to attack even if it seems that the enemy was perfectly in the line of your attack.
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: MURDERTRON on December 01, 2013, 07:35:51 am
With the recent changes to 1h and polearm overhead attack speed, the 2h overhead attack is now underpowered by comparison.

Please correct this imbalance as soon as possible.

P.S. the rest of this thread is probably dumb, idk because I didn't read it.

Actually this isn't true.  Maybe in a straight up spam fest, but most 2hers I see will throw an overhead 90 degrees to you, then drag it through your feet, for full damage.  It's quite ridiculous.
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: F i n on December 01, 2013, 10:15:41 am
i think the animations, dmg, reach and speee of every weapon is quite balanced atm.
but
those invisible animations really suck.
Title: Re: Can we fix some animations? (1h stab, 2h stab, Pole instaswing and thrust)
Post by: Grumbs on December 08, 2013, 01:12:34 am

The way I see it, there is only one reason(but two perspectives) you should ever consider editing an animation. This is to make sure it's intuitive to use and understand. It's one of only 4 basic attack directions in the game, it has to be intuitive. I recently edited the 1h thrust(with a very minor adjustment to the polearm animation) specifically because proper use of the animation was unintuitive and required prior knowledge as to what the appropriate method of use was(turning into your swing as a means to delay when you hit. Remember, sweetspots are separate from what happens during an animation, damage is found by progression through the total duration). The second part of this, is to make the visuals represent more closely what players can expect from damage.

I believe, with the exception of the polearm thrust, where the arms appear to extend forward slower, but for a longer period of time(thus slightly harder to distinguish sweetspot locations visually), we are already where we need to be. The problem, is that due to previously mentioned mechanics, there exists large variation in damage outcomes as well as practical uses, which are generally referred to under a single term(concept).

My conclusion? Abandon ship and start from scratch. My opinion is that sweetspots and thrust durations probably shouldn't be so easily affected as they are by such things as weapon speed and weapon proficiency. Speed bonus shouldn't vary as drastically as it does. That is, damage modifiers from speed should probably be cut in half. Don't have some thrusts originate near head level while others below the waist, as long as the head remains as the target hit capsule for maximizing damage.

I'm sure there's more I could add, but at this point I'm rather exhausted from writing and I doubt many people will actually read this as is.

Not sure if the current implementation of 1 hand stab improves intuitiveness or if it simply reduces the difficulty of the attack. Most people play for the challenge and finding out how best to use the attacks and this current 1 hand stab flies in the face of that. Its too simple and easy, it reaches too far, activates too soon and the damage is too high.

Same with right swing, its been made too easy when you add in the shield as well and outreaches weapons they shouldnt outreach. You or someone also increased 1 hand weight (less weapon stun), buffed several with their damage, made more 0 slot for ranged. Its not what the game needs atm