cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Remono on November 24, 2013, 06:08:49 pm

Title: Question about DTV behaviour
Post by: Remono on November 24, 2013, 06:08:49 pm
I've been playing plenty of DTV recently. Sometimes I was playing a polearm sometimes a 1h/shield. If the team tactics was to set a shieldwall I tried to support as good as I can. Today I got quiet mad (not insulting) seeing about half the team just standing somewhere and intentionally tk'ing each other with ballistas or just running around far from where the action took place even if the guys at front called for help. On some later waves came the inevitable lack of shielders/slashers but still at least 1/3 of the team didn't care. There we lost. I tried to kickpoll one of the guys who was tk'ing with ballistas at spawn (no sight to the attackers so no possibility of beeing useful there). Poll got rejected and I got kickpolled instead.
I would like to know:
1. Did I missunderstood some rules and got kicked "legally"?
2. What to do about players not willing to contribute to the team?

Thanks for you time reading and answering.
Title: Re: Question about DTV behaviour
Post by: Uther Pendragon on November 24, 2013, 06:11:04 pm
New maps promote leeching and having only 1/3 of people doing anything, and then suddenly waking up when its too late.
Title: Re: Question about DTV behaviour
Post by: _GTX_ on November 24, 2013, 06:12:21 pm
Quote from: Remono on November 24, 2013, 06:08:49 pm
I've been playing plenty of DTV recently. Sometimes I was playing a polearm sometimes a 1h/shield. If the team tactics was to set a shieldwall I tried to support as good as I can. Today I got quiet mad (not insulting) seeing about half the team just standing somewhere and intentionally tk'ing each other with ballistas or just running around far from where the action took place even if the guys at front called for help. On some later waves came the inevitable lack of shielders/slashers but still at least 1/3 of the team didn't care. There we lost. I tried to kickpoll one of the guys who was tk'ing with ballistas at spawn (no sight to the attackers so no possibility of beeing useful there). Poll got rejected and I got kickpolled instead.
I would like to know:
1. Did I missunderstood some rules and got kicked "legally"?
2. What to do about players not willing to contribute to the team?

Thanks for you time reading and answering.

As far as i know you did the right thing, if you remembered to state the reason for your poll (very important). If there is alot of players screwing around, so that they actually outnumber the amount of players that actually play, which means they will win all the polls. Then you should see if you could get a hold of an admin.

You could also take screenshots and create ban threads, if its the same people doing it again and again.

This is what i can think of ontop of my head.
Title: Re: Question about DTV behaviour
Post by: Patoson on November 24, 2013, 06:13:01 pm
You didn't misunderstand anything. You were just unlucky to be in a team full of jerks. We just need more admins in EU_7.
Title: Re: Question about DTV behaviour
Post by: Leshma on November 24, 2013, 06:15:43 pm
DTV needs to be tweaked. Old system was exploited (stand behind the fence and aggro mob), new system is annoying (invisible walls are by far the most annoying feature of this mod) and promotes leeching as Uther said. Find a new solution.
Title: Re: Question about DTV behaviour
Post by: Clockworkkiller on November 24, 2013, 06:22:23 pm
Sounds like my kind of crowd

Good on them, they were having fun
Title: Re: Question about DTV behaviour
Post by: Fips on November 24, 2013, 08:10:46 pm
Yeah, put the blame on the new maps when people leech. It's not like they decide to leech and be asshats, they are forced to do so. Lol guys. You can blame the changes to dtv for a lot of things, but this isn't one of them.

If you see leechers and people teamkilling go ahead and make a ban-request and if you can't make them stop, you can always go on irc (The "Chat" button on the top of the site) and poke admins to help you out.
Title: Re: Question about DTV behaviour
Post by: Leshma on November 24, 2013, 09:34:06 pm
Not all maps are like that, but the most desirable map certainly promotes leeching. I'm talking about village/fortress map. There is an opening and only 3,4 shielders and just as much melee guys can fit. Others are doing nothing most of the time and that's why they th, tk or just leech.

You're not the only one responsible for invisible walls, they were added while Mustikki was map manager, to prevent archers from camping. But they are bad solution.

We already have a script for drowning. If it's possible to modify that script and mark part of maps which are currently cut off with invisible walls, you could create out of bounds script like in battlefield games. Put a 30 second timer to get out of it, and another 30 seconds timer to reset the first timer so that people can't abuse it (wait 29 seconds, step in allowed area, go back).

If this can't be done to cRPG due to lack of manpower, I would like to see it in M:BG. Because it's much better than invisible walls.
Title: Re: Question about DTV behaviour
Post by: Jona on November 25, 2013, 04:21:56 am
Quote from: Fips on November 24, 2013, 08:10:46 pm
Yeah, put the blame on the new maps when people leech. It's not like they decide to leech and be asshats, they are forced to do so. Lol guys. You can blame the changes to dtv for a lot of things, but this isn't one of them.

Contrary to your biased map-maker beliefs,  maps can very well make people leech. If a map is set up so that no more than 5-10 people can actually engage the enemy at one time, then the others have nothing to do. Sure in an ideal world they would be at the ready to fill in any gaps in a shieldwall should someone fall, but very few people are willing to stare at their computer screen and do essentially nothing for 15 minutes straight. Pretty much everyone that plays this game has some form of ADD just because they can't stand doing nothing for any period of time. And to be quite honest, I fall into that category. I come to this game to play, and playing is all about cutting down bots, and you know, combat. I don't come here to stare at a computer screen. I've got the internet or other stuff for that. I want to be engaged, and frankly, the new dtv isn't at all engaging. All it does is promote suicide leeching since at least that way you can get one good old-fashioned dtv run in before u inevitably back into an invisible wall and die. And then the other players who don't suicide leech are your average invinci-shielders who stand in a corner and have one other guy hacking away at their mob. These new maps are in no way less exploitable than the old ones since an invinci-shielder is just as useful as before. Not to mention there are some fences you can still get behind and pull a mob to as well.

You seem like a generally nice guy Fips, and your work on siege was much appreciated, but ever since you changed dtv you have been overly defensive of your handiwork. You just can't admit that you fucked up. Just come out and say it, and then revert the changes. If you really think dtv is some super-exploitable mode where people go just to get shittons of gold and xp, you would be wrong. At least 90% of the NA community shows up to dtv just to have a break from all the uber-competitive modes where hostility and shittalking is generally promoted. Dtv has always been a calm and cooperative environment. Now its even growing on hostile territory since you have got the guys looking to have fun while not be yelled at by raging nerds, and then you've got the raging nerds who want to beat dtv all the time and can't fathom why some "fucking retarded autistic piece of shit" would want to charge to his death on the first wave.

Also, if you really think that getting decent xp and gold is for some reason a crime, then simply reduce the rewards that players get from the mode. However, you should really keep in mind that many players that come to dtv are:

A) Noobs looking for a less challenging way to get past the low level grind
B) Australians, Asians, or any other far away people with 200+ ping who can't play reliably on any other server
C) People that want to chill and have a good time with friends while not getting shit on due to their questionable skill

So do you really want to take away the rewards from players such as these? We all know the low level grind is frustrating as all heck, and I have no problem letting a low level guy try his hardest in dtv, even if he accomplishes nothing and then dies, taking a small amount of XP away from the rest of us. We can all sympathize with one in his situation. Then there are the poor far away guys, who can only play in dtv since ping is less of an issue. Dtv is literally the only mode that they play, so would you really want to make their grind far longer as well? Then there is the last group of people mentioned... those who simply have the most fun in such a calm environment, and are your average "dtv heroes." They are kind of a combination of the first two groups, where they simply don't want to play anywhere else, whether due to lack of skill or simply lack of ambition. Not everyone wants to be #1 duelist NA/EU or the most valuable siege/battle player. Some are simply content with their current station.
Title: Re: Question about DTV behaviour
Post by: Sharpe on November 25, 2013, 12:42:36 pm
(click to show/hide)

10/10

Youre free to go when the bell rings, A+
Title: Re: Question about DTV behaviour
Post by: Fips on November 25, 2013, 01:57:28 pm
I've been playing a lot dtv recently and maybe there is a insane difference between NA and EU, but at least on EU side your observation doesn't quite fit to what i see.
The maps you are talking about, where i do see the problem that there could be some more room to make when the server is full, are actually the only ones where the server is full constantly and if they get changed people switch. And to make it clear, i am talking about Uzgha, Istiniar and the old sea raid from defend the village. And maybe Turin Castle, although people are already overwhelmed with 2 ways that lead bots to the visc, so usually there is barely any time to be bored.
So, and why is that those maps make the server full and the ones that are more open and allow space for every single player when there are 30 of them, empty the server?  Exactly, because dtv, EU dtv to be precise, is only a handful of dedicated players that like to play for the reasons you are telling me, the rest is only there to GRIND EXP. That's why noone wants to play the more open maps, although that is the most complained about issue right after the invisible walls.

So please don't tell me that there are only those 3 groups of players, you've left out the biggest one that only play it for massive XP and Gold grind. And i didn't make the maps for those, although the small ones i mentioned up there make it seem like it. I wanted to get rid of exploiting first, bring some new ideas to dtv (the gate with winch, ballistae, ladder-assaults, bringing castles into the mode) and to make the rounds more fast-paced, so even on low population you can get at least decent xp and have some fun because bots don't take half an hour to get to you. And so far i like what is happening on EU dtv. I see way more teamplay, people form shieldwalls constantly, meatwalls and pike-walls are a thing now, too. No more "let's leech at v while 2 or 3 guys manage to kill off every single bot on the front with super nice exploits", because if you don't play along and help your team out you can cause a lot of trouble for the guys that do.

And contrary to all the QQ on the forums about the new maps and bots, i get plenty of good feedback on the servers, so i must've done something right. Not to mention that i see 2 full servers on EU side every now and then, which never happened before the update.

For the invincible shielders there will be a solution, just not sure how to do it exactly, but Shik and everyone else that has a say in this will definitely agree on one.
Title: Re: Question about DTV behaviour
Post by: karasu on November 25, 2013, 02:06:19 pm
Making DTV it's probably the hardest map creation process, due to several aspects:


More open maps will come soonish, and things will be better, but try to keep the constructive feedbacks, specially on the goddamn Scene Edit forum, not here..

Cheerio!
Title: Re: Question about DTV behaviour
Post by: Uther Pendragon on November 25, 2013, 02:25:40 pm
If its of any help, If you'd base next maps on Sea Raid, which is absolutely perfect and reminds me of fun days of DTVillage, I can assure you far less people will complain about maps, at least.
Bots coming from 2 or more directions? Check
Relatively open terrain? Check
Fast rounds? Check
Sure, it lacks ballistats and other fancy stuff... But this map is just good, doesn't needs them. It how maps for DTV should look (Save for aforementioned new fancy stuff.) :(\

Also, where is that Village Hideout map, or whatever was it called? It was quite interesting too I believe.
Title: Re: Question about DTV behaviour
Post by: Jona on November 25, 2013, 03:03:58 pm
Quote from: Fips on November 25, 2013, 01:57:28 pm
And to make it clear, i am talking about Uzgha, Istiniar and the old sea raid from defend the village. And maybe Turin Castle, although people are already overwhelmed with 2 ways that lead bots to the visc, so usually there is barely any time to be bored.
So, and why is that those maps make the server full and the ones that are more open and allow space for every single player when there are 30 of them, empty the server?  Exactly, because dtv, EU dtv to be precise, is only a handful of dedicated players that like to play for the reasons you are telling me, the rest is only there to GRIND EXP. That's why noone wants to play the more open maps, although that is the most complained about issue right after the invisible walls.

Istiniar and old sea raid from the defend the village days are a couple of the worst maps now. Istiniar is nothing but a glorified funnel nowadays, and sea raid has invisible walls in all the wrong places. Not to mention sea raid is the ultimate bore fest. It just requires 3 shielders at 2 doorways to block off any and all incoming bots. So up to 6 people out of a 30 person server are now entertained. Woo... hoo...

Also, you complain about how people would exploit just to grind xp on the old dtv, and yet now you see that more than ever before. It is far easier to get fast xp and gold in dtv since the maps are funnels with no bots delaying. Earlier rounds are over in a matter of minutes where you can easily get 15 - 20k (with 40% gen bonus, mind you) off of peasants / bandits since those rounds are over so damn fast. And you truly think that no one wants to play open maps since they can't win on them? Heck, I don't think I could name a single NA player that wouldn't kill for an open map nowadays.

Quote from: Fips on November 25, 2013, 01:57:28 pm
So please don't tell me that there are only those 3 groups of players, you've left out the biggest one that only play it for massive XP and Gold grind. And i didn't make the maps for those, although the small ones i mentioned up there make it seem like it. I wanted to get rid of exploiting first, bring some new ideas to dtv (the gate with winch, ballistae, ladder-assaults, bringing castles into the mode) and to make the rounds more fast-paced, so even on low population you can get at least decent xp and have some fun because bots don't take half an hour to get to you. And so far i like what is happening on EU dtv. I see way more teamplay, people form shieldwalls constantly, meatwalls and pike-walls are a thing now, too. No more "let's leech at v while 2 or 3 guys manage to kill off every single bot on the front with super nice exploits", because if you don't play along and help your team out you can cause a lot of trouble for the guys that do.

And contrary to all the QQ on the forums about the new maps and bots, i get plenty of good feedback on the servers, so i must've done something right. Not to mention that i see 2 full servers on EU side every now and then, which never happened before the update.

For the invincible shielders there will be a solution, just not sure how to do it exactly, but Shik and everyone else that has a say in this will definitely agree on one.

You keep saying that the #1 priority on your end is to remove xp grinders, essentially. Well you see that all the goddamn time now. People that I have NEVER seen in dtv now are coming to visit, killing off the population of other servers (siege in particular). I asked them, since they were all siege regulars, why they weren't in siege, since this mode was now boring as all hell. I wanted to play, bu the server had 0 people while dtv had maybe 20. They replied "this is now far better xp." So then I asked why they would want to sit here, either afking or in a shieldwall for the duration of a round, just to rinse and repeat next round when they could be having fun in siege... and got the same answer "this is better xp than ever before. maybe better than an x5, even." So yeah, good job eliminating the hardcore xp grinders. I had never before encountered them in dtv... but now, all the time. And it is simply killing the dtv server itself (got plenty of tryhards now) and killing siege as well. Heck, for the first time in ages there was a high population in rageball, since it was the only alternative to siege that offers pvp with quick respawns. And the reason rageball was populated and not siege is because it only requires 6 people for multis, hence it is far easier to populate and keep populated.

And since when did dtv become the mode where teamplay was forced upon you? In every mode teamplay is simply encouraged... you won't find it easy to take the flag unless you move in as a group in siege, you won't accomplish much at all trying to solo the entire enemy team in battle, and you will have a hard time running the ball from your goal to the other without passing once in rageball. However, it CAN be done. Teamplay is always encouraged, but being a hero IS possible.. in siege you can ninja cap, in battle you can flank the enemy and ninja their ranged or something (although flanking is arguably teamplay), and in rageball you can boot the ball down the entire field on your own if you are good at kicking. It is always possible to play alone in these modes, but of course teamplay is the most successful. In the new dtv, teamplay is simply a fancy way to say "we are now forcing every shielder in the game to sit in one place and hold RMB while a couple guys behind them attack the guys that they have pulled." You are simply forcing a playstyle, a very boring playstyle for most, at that, upon people. Old dtv had more free-form teamplay. If you wanted to do well, you would organize. "Okay guys, us 10 are gonna charge and do our best to stop them before they get here. Ranged, you sit on that roof and snipe any who get past us, or assist us in any way you can against their ranged. The rest of you guys, camp the V to make sure no ninjas got past us." The addition of commander chat for dtv was a godsend, and really was all you needed to enable more teamplay. It was honestly amazing how well people listened by their own choice. But no, now it is work together or simply don't make it past peasants. Oh, and by work together, I mean sit around in a shieldwall. You do realize that sitting around in a shieldwall is in no way any less exploiting than sitting on a rooftop, right? The bots get pulled to it, the melee heroes kill them form behind when they don't even fight back, yet everyone is still susceptible to ranged (save for the shielders, most likely). The gameplay in dtv is no different than before. It is all camping. The only thing this new "teamplay" managed to do is eliminate the fun charging that any decent melee could do successfully.
Title: Re: Question about DTV behaviour
Post by: BlindGuy on November 25, 2013, 03:16:55 pm
Quote from: Fips on November 25, 2013, 01:57:28 pm
(click to show/hide)

FIPS Im not knocking your achievements, but EU DTV servers are full because of the free respec, nothing to do with your editing. When you give grindwhores a free respec at 35, they take the gayest thing they can because thats the community we have, so when eu1 is 50% ranged cav, all scrubbies go to dtv because they cannot even MAKE it into melee, much less kill the remaining infantry players, who most of us have been playing for 3 years and have all the looms and experience we want, no noob will ever beat us. So they go where they can at least play for a while withou being riden over by 5-6 horse archers at their spawn, or manage to make it to melee to be killed by merc/byz/templol/deserter gank squad.

They cannot even have fun on EU2 because of fucking horde of Gay Order and followers who all spam them with fucking massively overbuffed shielders or shoot them with longbows from the walls. DTV is mostly scrubs Fips, and they mostly arent there by choice.
Title: Re: Question about DTV behaviour
Post by: Sparvico on November 26, 2013, 06:50:32 am
Quote
And contrary to all the QQ on the forums about the new maps and bots, i get plenty of good feedback on the servers, so i must've done something right. Not to mention that i see 2 full servers on EU side every now and then, which never happened before the update.

I think the we need separate map rotations for NA and EU, probably a NA scene manager too. We North American's don't really care how much the 2 European servers like the new maps, just like you don't appear to care about the opinion of NA at all.

Unless you go to NA servers way more often than you appear to I really don't see how you could have gotten adequate feedback about how the maps are doing in NA. In fact I can only ever remember you playing in NA siege for one night. I mean that isn't exactly conclusive evidence. Nor should you have to play on NA servers a bunch, this isn't anything more than a hobby for you.
Title: Re: Question about DTV behaviour
Post by: Leshma on November 26, 2013, 04:27:02 pm
No offense to Mylet, he's a legend and all but can we please replace him with RasFrenzYYY? :D
Title: Re: Question about DTV behaviour
Post by: karasu on November 26, 2013, 04:30:55 pm
Never.

Mylet is eternal, Ras is this week FOTM.


What heresy is this...   :mad:
Title: Re: Question about DTV behaviour
Post by: Patoson on November 26, 2013, 04:55:23 pm
It doesn't matter how the map is, people who break the rules are going to do so anywhere. Sometimes, in these new maps, there's a shield-wall set up and everything's going smooth, but there's always some players who can't participate because there is just no space for everyone to fight. But that does not mean that, if I am one of those people behind, I will decide to leech since I can't do anything else. Either I try to charge through the shield-wall out of desperation or I leave the server.

So you shouldn't be blaming grieving on Fips' maps but on people themselves. It might be true that a good map where each and every player can fight discourages grieving, but, in the old DTV, there were always people grieving anyway. Arseholes will be arseholes everywhere.