cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lethwin Far Seeker on November 19, 2013, 05:23:38 am

Title: A Counter Intuitive Patch
Post by: Lethwin Far Seeker on November 19, 2013, 05:23:38 am
This post is mostly going to be dealing with the problems I see with this patch, but I'll address the positive elements first.  I will NOT be talking about the crashes and invisible armour bugs as those are very temporary issues and are to be expected from a patch as big as this.

1- Check against STR pures.  I respect the STR heavy play style and have had fun with it for several gens on an alt.  That said I'm glad that it has gotten checked without breaking the class.

2- Who doesn't love new gear!  Seriously, one of my favorite things about cRPG is that it has consistently used historically accurate equipment allowing for that tremendously versatile range of play styles and looks.

3- Less hating on the hybrids.  I'm not a hybrid these days but I have been and I am really glad players will have the hybrid class as a viable option.



I don't know if the above "good" outweighs the below "bad" but I hope that some of the following points will be addressed.

1- DTV is a mess.  I think Jona sums this up quite nicely here: http://forum.melee.org/the-chamber-of-tears/you-can't-run-and-you-can't-hide/
EDIT:  As an after thought, its obvious that someone went to a lot of work to do what has been done.  I don't wish to discredit their efforts.  I simply would like a better incorporation of it.  A. Keep the old maps AND the new maps.  B. I (and others I have spoken with) absolutely hate, with a passion, invisible walls.  Nothing else (besides floating pumkin heads swinging swords at you) could be more detrimental towards immersion and the free roaming will I have come to love in cRPG.  C. Adding new waves is fine but put them in a better order and why remove old waves?

2- 2h Agi spammers.  There is always a brief influx of players trying out the new items or the latest thing that got buffed, but this is too much.  Even with high proficiency I can't make a swing after blocking without getting hit again.  Once hit its nearly impossible to regain any standing whilst under the barrage of blows so fast I can't even see them coming.

3- EDIT: I done slipped up!  I was under the impression that longswords got a buff in 2h mode.  I would now rather say that I wish the half swording mode would use 2h proficiency.  Why?  Because longswords aren't polearms!  A swordsman would only half sword when faced with a heavily armored opponent.  Its just a different way of using the same weapon, it does NOT involve learning a new skill set like the current pole wpf based halfswording system implies.

4- I was thrilled to hear that there was an Estoc added.  Really, its an interesting and fantastic weapon.  Then I discovered it was a faster and more stabby variant of the longsword.  In sum, 28 cut is pretty impressive for a WEAPON WITHOUT AN EDGE.
See the following link for a description of an actual Estoc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoc


Thanks for reading, if you don't agree with some of my points, please post below and I will gladly consider your point of view.

Finnian Tiercel
Title: Re: A Counter Intuitive Patch
Post by: Jona on November 19, 2013, 05:38:59 am
Agree 100%

Only thing to point out is that the 2handers were left alone in their 2handed mode. Their alt modes (polearm / halfswording) got buffed (A LOT). So basically, swords are now the best polearms as well.



GG variety.


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: A Counter Intuitive Patch
Post by: Malaclypse on November 19, 2013, 05:44:38 am
The Longsword buff doesn't seem like that big of an issue, I mean. I'll be glad to see people actually USING polearm mode with Longsword and other swords.
Title: Re: A Counter Intuitive Patch
Post by: Lethwin Far Seeker on November 19, 2013, 05:48:08 am
Quote from: Jona on November 19, 2013, 05:38:59 am
Agree 100%

Only thing to point out is that the 2handers were left alone in their 2handed mode. Their alt modes (polearm / halfswording) got buffed (A LOT). So basically, swords are now the best polearms as well.



GG variety.


(click to show/hide)

I am glad that half swording finally got buffed.  It was incredibly worthless as it was.  However I believe it should use 2h proficiency.  Yes that would be yet another buff to 2h but really and truly, half swording is something any wielding of the longsword would practice.

I thought the Estoc was going to be 2 directional; combining the 2h stab with the pole stab.  Would have made sense and have been effective.  Instead we got an inverse longsword.
Title: Re: A Counter Intuitive Patch
Post by: Jarold on November 19, 2013, 06:12:38 am
Yeah I was hoping when I made the Estoc it would have really low cut damage or blunt damage. You compared the longsword to the estoc and really they are kind of the same thing. The longsword doesn't actually have a really sharp edge either.

I agree with everything you have said, especially the half swording part!
Title: Re: A Counter Intuitive Patch
Post by: Torben on November 19, 2013, 06:15:33 am
seeker,  what class are you?  I am a balanced polearm build and dont have problems with high agi 2handers even when using my great long bardiche.  are you maybe being stunned on the first block?

other then that i am quite positive the estoque will be rebalanced and dtv issues looked at.
Title: Re: A Counter Intuitive Patch
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on November 19, 2013, 06:24:11 am
Quote from: Lethwin Far Seeker on November 19, 2013, 05:23:38 am
A swordsman would only half sword when faced with a heavily armored opponent.  Its just a different way of using the same weapon, it does NOT involve learning a new skill set like the current pole wpf based halfswording system implies.

I always thought that the reason halfswording used polearm was because only polearm thrusts can rear a horse. It might be something hardcoded into the engine that devs can't change. Can anyone confirm/deny this?
Title: Re: A Counter Intuitive Patch
Post by: Thranduil on November 19, 2013, 06:36:41 am
I agree with OP. I've played with the pure STR build, and while I like it, I must say that a check (I wouldn't exactly say "nerf") was quite due; however, this "check" heavily buffed AGI builds, which have been the bane of this game for the last few months. The balance has shifted heavily in favor for AGI builds, especially with the buff to weapon speeds. For example, again, the Estoc. I love that this weapon has been added and it looks wonderful, and yes, it's a stabbing weapon, but it feels like we're being trolled by the devs in the sense that it has become a replacement for some for the Rondel Dagger. With the near-insane WPF that some AGI builds now have, I get stabbed a second time before I can even recover from the first stab. Right now, pure AGI builds are broken.

While I think the new WPF vs Agility has the right direction (a logarithmic incline), the cutoff is just too high with full WM. It should follow more like the plot for zero WM (red line) and have a cap-out at 200 WPF:
(click to show/hide)

Alternatively, (don't kill me, don't kill me), put a manual cap at 180 WPF and otherwise keep the current formula (well, really, lower it just a tad bit). Looking at the current formula in a positive light, it encourages hybrid builds, which I honestly like, but it also punishes pure STR builds (though admittedly not terribly so) and highly encourages AGI spammer builds more than anything.

To give you an idea on where I'm coming from, this is my build:

21 STR
15 AGI

7 PS
7 IF
5 WM
5 Ath
5 Shield
139 WPF in 1h

It's slightly strength heavy, but otherwise I consider it relatively balanced for a 1h shielder.

Quote from: A_Hot_Elf_Princess on November 19, 2013, 06:24:11 am
I always thought that the reason halfswording used polearm was because only polearm thrusts can rear a horse. It might be something hardcoded into the engine that devs can't change. Can anyone confirm/deny this?
I can neither confirm nor deny this. ..... Sorry. I couldn't resist.
Title: Re: A Counter Intuitive Patch
Post by: Tanken on November 19, 2013, 07:04:59 am
As with every patch or major change, many are quick to judge. I know I am one of them. We've known this patch was coming for a while. Do I think it was completely necessary? Not entirely.


Let me explain though; This patch (as it stands at the time of this post) is not really 'all that bad', and a lot of what you are seeing is people experimenting with the heavy agility, new weapons, and wpf changes to their builds. This has to be expected, new stuff and new mechanics means people get new ideas and want to try new things. I am somewhat disappointed however that pure strength, while still viable, is going to take a lot of getting used to, whereas a lot of builds benefit from the wpf change immensely and immediately, strength builds (pure strength obviously) did not.

Ranged seems much scarier now. I have a peasant alt, which prior to the patch with no IF and just 15 strength, would take 3-4 arrows or 2-3 bolts to take down. Every. Single. Time. I am 1 shot, if I'm not one shot now, I'm black barred. Of course, these are just first impressions. If the patch and all of its formulas and changes are final--then we'll just have to evolve our play styles as a community.

Right now in the server, everything is very fast paced and the action is quick. People are moving so fast and hitting with such force and swiftness it's almost like the game speed itself was doubled. I'm sure in a few more days we'll have a little clearer image of how things feel, right now everyone is a little overwhelmed with the changes I'm sure. I know I am, but mainly I'm just troubled about how characters should be built to stay effective as they were prior.
Title: Re: A Counter Intuitive Patch
Post by: oprah_winfrey on November 19, 2013, 07:18:50 am
In less then a week, everyone will be back to their balanced/strength builds.
Title: Re: A Counter Intuitive Patch
Post by: Lethwin Far Seeker on November 19, 2013, 07:27:07 am
Quote from: Torben on November 19, 2013, 06:15:33 am
seeker,  what class are you?  I am a balanced polearm build and dont have problems with high agi 2handers even when using my great long bardiche.  are you maybe being stunned on the first block?

other then that i am quite positive the estoque will be rebalanced and dtv issues looked at.

I've done roughly 5 gens of 18/21 2h, a gen of 18/18 shielder, folowed by several hoplite and hoplite\1h hybrids, 1h shield cav, 2h cav, and am curently balanced 1h shield cav.
I also actively play an archer alt and a STR pure\heavy alt.

I have had problems with agi 2hers and their lolstab ever since I stopped being one (though 18/21 isn't super agi)

I my experience, polearms are indeed the best thing if anything to counter agi 2h.  Either you have a weapon that can out reach them or a Bec de Corbin\Long Axe which can usually match them on speed.
Title: Re: A Counter Intuitive Patch
Post by: Lethwin Far Seeker on November 19, 2013, 07:30:31 am
Quote from: A_Hot_Elf_Princess on November 19, 2013, 06:24:11 am
I always thought that the reason halfswording used polearm was because only polearm thrusts can rear a horse. It might be something hardcoded into the engine that devs can't change. Can anyone confirm/deny this?

(Sorry for double post)

I don't think there is anything preventing the devs from doing this.  Poleaxes and other such weapons can be switched and still use pole proficiency.
I'm not sure what you mean by "was because only polearm thrusts can rear a horse" but I don't think anyone can or should be able to rear a horse with half swording so that shouldin't be an issue.
Title: Re: A Counter Intuitive Patch
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on November 19, 2013, 09:52:17 am
Quote from: Lethwin Far Seeker on November 19, 2013, 07:30:31 am
(Sorry for double post)
I'm not sure what you mean by "was because only polearm thrusts can rear a horse" but I don't think anyone can or should be able to rear a horse with halfswording so that shouldn't be an issue.

Only piercing damage thrusts from a polearm weapon can rear a horse. For example, the partisan's thrust does cut damage and cannot rear a horse. I think the reason that 2H secondary mode uses poleaarm wpf is that it was meant to be an anti-cavalry attack for 2H users. Just thrusting with a spear or holding your shield up is much easier than trying to kill cav with a 2H weapon that has 50% of the cav's weapon length.

Realism wise, I agree with you. It would make sense for halfswording to use 2H wpf. Balance wise, the "polearm" designation is important. Every 2H wep with halfswording would have to be rebalanced..
Title: Re: A Counter Intuitive Patch
Post by: _GTX_ on November 19, 2013, 10:16:21 am
Quote from: Jona on November 19, 2013, 05:38:59 am
Agree 100%

Only thing to point out is that the 2handers were left alone in their 2handed mode. Their alt modes (polearm / halfswording) got buffed (A LOT). So basically, swords are now the best polearms as well.



GG variety.


(click to show/hide)
Check stratfights and which class that rly brings out amazing K/D, not 2h. Rest my case.
Title: Re: A Counter Intuitive Patch
Post by: Lethwin Far Seeker on November 19, 2013, 11:12:28 am
Quote from: A_Hot_Elf_Princess on November 19, 2013, 09:52:17 am
I think the reason that 2H secondary mode uses poleaarm wpf is that it was meant to be an anti-cavalry attack for 2H users. Just thrusting with a spear or holding your shield up is much easier than trying to kill cav with a 2H weapon that has 50% of the cav's weapon length.


I couldn't disagree with you more.  I speak as a player who has done 2h and cav for several gens.  The absurd reach modifier of the 2h stab will annihilate any cav charge.  If you get bored of wrecking every horse that comes within 10 feet of you  with stabs, you can always simple side step to the right and hack off the things legs as it runs helplessly past you.  Due to the harsh nerfs on cav just about any stab can take a charging horse down (my +3 padded warhorse gets 1 hit by every conceivable weapon).  Don't forget that when a stab hits the front of the horse (regardless of weapon length) it usually goes through to hit the rider as well.
"But what about heavy lances that outreach (if you time your thrust right) even 2h stabs!" you might say.  Those pointy breadsticks are also the victim of unscrupulous nerfing.  I regularly shrug off heavy lance couches and thrusts even with 5 ironflesh.  Even before lances and horses were nerfed, all it took was a side step and possibly a jump while stabbing at the face of the thing to bring it down.

TLDR: It's incredibly easy to kill cav with 2h.  I would even say it is easier in 2h mode due to the reach modifier for the 2h stab.  There is no way that 2h needs a secondary mode exclusively for fending off cav.  Half swording's only legitimate purpose is for piercing plate or fighting in very close quarters.  End of story.
Title: Re: A Counter Intuitive Patch
Post by: Kafein on November 19, 2013, 01:09:54 pm
Quote from: Tank Burner on November 19, 2013, 07:04:59 am
I have a peasant alt, which prior to the patch with no IF and just 15 strength, would take 3-4 arrows or 2-3 bolts to take down.

"I'm the Pope" is less of a dubious statement.
Title: Re: A Counter Intuitive Patch
Post by: Angantyr on November 19, 2013, 04:21:01 pm
I like the new changes except for loldaggers with shields being even more ridiculous now with the higher wpf, who in their right minds would have them behave like this in the mod? And ranged, god.. so many shielders and coward hx's, ha's and xbows and archers and throwers now in cRPG I feel like I'm back in Native. I use 40k+ equipment and I can still get 1 shot to the face from some random guy across the map.
Title: Re: A Counter Intuitive Patch
Post by: Jack1 on November 19, 2013, 04:38:16 pm
I agree with everything except the DTV part, the mode is a lot better IMO when the rounds don't take a half an hour each

Also, if the estoc gets something as low as 15b swing damage the stab should be buffed somewhat to make up for the basically one usable direction.

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Title: Re: A Counter Intuitive Patch
Post by: brockssn on November 19, 2013, 07:35:57 pm
I agree, but I like the DTV changes overall.
Title: Re: A Counter Intuitive Patch
Post by: Canuck on November 19, 2013, 07:51:11 pm
Quote from: Jona on November 19, 2013, 05:38:59 am
Agree 100%

Only thing to point out is that the 2handers were left alone in their 2handed mode. Their alt modes (polearm / halfswording) got buffed (A LOT). So basically, swords are now the best polearms as well.



GG variety.


(click to show/hide)

Seems like you're a little too biased there Jona. I don't know how you can use poles so much and still go on about how 2h is so ridiculously OP and all that other shit, like fuck man, the half swords are now the best polearms? Really? Not trying to be a dick but really I'm just not sure where that idea is coming from. I'm going tribrid this gen because I think that all the melee classes are great and have their own strengths and weaknesses and no one class is better than another in everything. Maybe you should try that too!

I agree about the estoc though (maybe not 15 blunt). A 30p thrust and 40c swing? I like the idea of the weapon and everything but it's too easy to switch modes mid fight and beat the shit out of people. Even without switching modes the weapon is a little unbalanced.
Title: Re: A Counter Intuitive Patch
Post by: Macbeth3 on November 19, 2013, 07:54:50 pm
I agree with most things, But my main focus is... Why does the estoc have "cutting" damage on it's swing?!

An estoc has a "blunt" edge, and a pointy end. Remove the cut and replace with for example 24 blunt.
Title: Re: A Counter Intuitive Patch
Post by: Nightmare798 on November 19, 2013, 07:56:04 pm
Quote from: Macbeth3 on November 19, 2013, 07:54:50 pm
I agree with most things, But my main focus is... Why does the estoc have "cutting" damage on it's swing?!

An estoc has a "blunt" edge, and a pointy end. Remove the cut and replace with for example 24 blunt.

I already Said this, however, I think that 24 blunt is a bit too much for a weapon that was not meant to be swung with in first place.
Title: Re: A Counter Intuitive Patch
Post by: Brrrak on November 19, 2013, 08:22:38 pm
Not to demean what, I am sure, Lethwin, are very good points, but...

Halfswording got buffed!?

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