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cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Brutal on November 18, 2013, 07:42:00 pm

Title: Hardcore throwing lobying
Post by: Brutal on November 18, 2013, 07:42:00 pm
I haven't felt like lobying from longtime but the passion is overwelming me again. 
I feel like I am back in 2010-2011 first lobying for 2 handers and then for horsies.


So yea i am lobying for throwing with less than 7 WM cuz i am butthurt since patch.

That it because with  6 wm you can have exactly as much wpf (if distributed) than with 5 WM prepatch.
For example 100 wpf in polearm and 120 in throwing.

I can see that hybrid melee buid have been carthered for  INJUSTYCE!!!!!!

So you could say well archers are not complaining !!!

Archer don't have mtf bow with 7 PD requirement. (throwing lance)

So here is what I suggest :

- buy some nivea cream for my butt/or

-reduce throwing lance to 6 PT/or

-Give throwing the same bonus as hybrid melee

Lowering wpf requirement is only good for people that use throwing as a sidearm, throwing is already so random please give love....

 
Title: Re: Hardcore throwing lobying
Post by: Moncho on November 18, 2013, 07:44:21 pm
Throwing requirement was reduced from 13 to 11 points per PT.

Urist: -reduced wpf malus from power throw
Edit 3: WPF per PT requirement reduced from 13 to 11. Putting wpf into any melee type will grant bonus wpf to the other melee proficiencies.
Title: Re: Hardcore throwing lobying
Post by: Brutal on November 18, 2013, 07:48:56 pm
I already have much more wpf than needed because you know accuracy....

and



Lowering wpf requirement is only good for people that use throwing as a sidearm, throwing is already so random please give love....

 

Edit1
just to make thing clear
Urist: -reduced wpf malus from power throw = WPF per PT requirement reduced from 13 to 11
which doesn't concer me

edit2
What i am really complaining aboit is that this will force me into a pure throwing build with 0-60 wpf in melee.
Which mean i am going to kite a lot more which sucks .

Title: Re: Hardcore throwing lobying
Post by: Brutal on November 18, 2013, 08:10:16 pm
RESERVED FOR MORE RANT
Title: Re: Hardcore throwing lobying
Post by: Jarlek on November 20, 2013, 11:56:56 pm
-snip-
Edit1
just to make thing clear
Urist: -reduced wpf malus from power throw = WPF per PT requirement reduced from 13 to 11
which doesn't concer me
-snip-
This does concern you, since now you lose 77 wpf from your 7 PT instead of 91 wpf. Aka, if you had 120 throwing before the change, you only need 106 wpf now to have the same as before.

Although throwing still is kinda fucked since you want high STR as thrower, yet still want some hybriding with a melee wpf.

My suggestion? Make it so throwing wpf add to the melee wpf synergy.
Title: Re: Hardcore throwing lobying
Post by: Lt_Anders on November 23, 2013, 11:04:30 pm
My suggestion? Make it so throwing wpf add to the melee wpf synergy.

I'll agree with this.

Throwers don't have the range(d) capabilites of xbow/bow, nor the accuracy, nor the speed, and can actually have less damage than the other ranged forms.(since the PT requirements are the highest in the game for the weapons at PT 6, while archers can stop at PD 5 for effectiveness)
(Also, Horse thrower got nerfed, again with this wpf patch)
Title: Re: Hardcore throwing lobying
Post by: Swaggart on November 25, 2013, 11:19:50 pm
If throwing gave the same synergy to melee wpf then throwers, especially lance throwers, would suffer from a severe case of having your cake and eating it too. The melee mode of the throwing lance is so strong that to give throwers more melee wpf would simply be too strong. Now, if this change coincided with a nerf to the melee mode of throwing lances I'd be on board, but at their current state no fucking thanks. I'm already terrified when I see a cocked throwing lance, last thing I want to do is deal with superspam once I close to melee distance.
Title: Re: Hardcore throwing lobying
Post by: DrTaco on November 26, 2013, 01:23:41 am
If throwing gave the same synergy to melee wpf then throwers, especially lance throwers, would suffer from a severe case of having your cake and eating it too. The melee mode of the throwing lance is so strong that to give throwers more melee wpf would simply be too strong. Now, if this change coincided with a nerf to the melee mode of throwing lances I'd be on board, but at their current state no fucking thanks. I'm already terrified when I see a cocked throwing lance, last thing I want to do is deal with superspam once I close to melee distance.

Throwing lances have about the same effectiveness as the shortened spear in melee - but wait. They also have a throwing mode, which is the most terrifying weapon in the game, but has less usefulness than Jarids, and cost more to maintain. Coincidentally it typically takes half of your ammo to kill one person with ~50 armor points, given you put all 4 slots with lances (No shield).* And get this, a shield - even a wet cardboard one, can take 1/4 of your ammo - maybe break, and nothing will happen, because they'll be up in your face while you furiously smash the X key, praying to god that the animation will end so you can go into a melee mode that shares properties with a spear that costs 1/6 as much and is more reliable to actually happen before some twit with a green arena shield and a dagger spams you to death.

Throwing lances take the same ratio to kil one person as stones do.
Title: Re: Hardcore throwing lobying
Post by: Swaggart on November 26, 2013, 04:37:19 am
Throwing lances have about the same effectiveness as the shortened spear in melee - but wait. They also have a throwing mode, which is the most terrifying weapon in the game, but has less usefulness than Jarids, and cost more to maintain. Coincidentally it typically takes half of your ammo to kill one person with ~50 armor points, given you put all 4 slots with lances (No shield).* And get this, a shield - even a wet cardboard one, can take 1/4 of your ammo - maybe break, and nothing will happen, because they'll be up in your face while you furiously smash the X key, praying to god that the animation will end so you can go into a melee mode that shares properties with a spear that costs 1/6 as much and is more reliable to actually happen before some twit with a green arena shield and a dagger spams you to death.

Throwing lances take the same ratio to kil one person as stones do.

So something is wrong with having a weapon that has a 29 pierce stab with 103 speed (talking about MW here)? Again, would you like to have the cake and eat it too? The usefulness of any weapon is defined by the person that's using it. Since you seem to think that throwing it at high armored targets and shields (lol) is a proper use of the weapon, then of course its not useful. Hell, most weapons are not useful against a high armored person or a shield. What's so special about the throwing lance? The low ammo? Then be more selective when you throw it (not to mention you can pick up any other thrown weapon without a problem.

Yes, its an expensive top tier weapon that fills a certain playstyle, kind of like a flamberge. Doesn't mean it needs to be buffed to the point where it becomes the definitive throwing weapon. Otherwise, why would any thrower use anything else?
Title: Re: Hardcore throwing lobying
Post by: DrTaco on November 26, 2013, 06:21:20 am
So something is wrong with having a weapon that has a 29 pierce stab with 103 speed (talking about MW here)? Again, would you like to have the cake and eat it too? The usefulness of any weapon is defined by the person that's using it. Since you seem to think that throwing it at high armored targets and shields (lol) is a proper use of the weapon, then of course its not useful. Hell, most weapons are not useful against a high armored person or a shield. What's so special about the throwing lance? The low ammo? Then be more selective when you throw it (not to mention you can pick up any other thrown weapon without a problem.

Yes, its an expensive top tier weapon that fills a certain playstyle, kind of like a flamberge. Doesn't mean it needs to be buffed to the point where it becomes the definitive throwing weapon. Otherwise, why would any thrower use anything else?

No, there's nothing wrong with that weapon. I would like to have cake, and eat it, because that's what you do with cake (eat it). The usefulness of any weapon is defined by the person using it - not wrong but falls apart after a certain point. I don't think that's the proper use of the throwing lance, and if you really think that's what I think then you clearly didn't think hard enough or at all.

How can a weapon be useful and useless? If the person using it is good at using it, and makes that weapon useful, how can it also be useless when paired up against high armor or a shield?
Also, how can you be perfectly ok with a dagger that can be spammed just as much as the throwing lance, but be totally against the idea of the throwing lance having the same capabilities? If you have a shield then both are useless, regardless if the throwing lance has throwing capabilities, since every weapon is useless against high level armor/shields. And in fact every weapon is useless if you can block(What's a great hammer). And if you're getting spammed from a throwing lance, then your simply bad at blocking. What makes the throwing lance special? Nothing, I think there's a problem with the throwing tree in general, barring the Jarid.

It's not going to be the best fucking weapon in the throwing tree if throwing wpf gets synergy with the melee wpf. And if you really think that it's going to be the best throwing weapon (Which I have to believe, since you think I throw lances at shields and call it a good use), then there's nothing I can say that won't sound like someone trying to explain quantum physics to a 5 year old.
Title: Re: Hardcore throwing lobying
Post by: Swaggart on November 26, 2013, 01:08:36 pm
I didn't say you throw lances at shields you just gave the worst examples of how to use them and complained about their effectiveness. It's like a long sword user asking for a buff because he can't break a MW huscarl in 2 hits. I just found it funny how you didn't say anything about how effective they are against lighter armoured targets. Not to mention I have been one shot by lances many times with my 59 body armour.

And the reason giving it synergy with melee is a bad idea is because you will be able to have a lot of wpf in throwing and melee. Which would be fine if the melee mode of lances wasn't as good as it is.
Title: Re: Hardcore throwing lobying
Post by: NuberT on November 26, 2013, 01:19:14 pm
I am fine with my 24/15 lance thrower, I simply put all wpf in throwing this time and just pick a spam weapon from the ground to fight in melee.. works fine and onehitting 2h spamzergs with lances is fun for sure :P
Title: Re: Hardcore throwing lobying
Post by: DrTaco on November 26, 2013, 06:06:52 pm
Since you seem to think that throwing it at high armored targets and shields (lol) is a proper use of the weapon, then of course its not useful.

Now i'm not saying that you said I threw lances at shields, but you sure fucking make it look that way.

Of course it's fucking effective against light armor. And so is every other weapon in the fucking game. Stones can kill a light armor target given ~4 decent throws. I take issue with the throwing lance - which I suspect is designed to kill high armor, doesn't do its fucking job. Not to mention you've been 1 shot by lances? How about the many fucking times I throw the lances at someone with a heavy kuyak, to have them look at me, as if they're saying "LIKE I GIVE A FUCK" and kill me because the animation takes so long. And I'm not just getting hit by the fucking things, i'm throwing them. Now correct me if i'm wrong, but if I throw the fucking things and see this quite a bit of the time, it's probably more than you dying on the off chance you actually get hit with the fucking things.

How is throwing lance melee strong. How many times have you been killed by a throwing lance thrust and thought "If this gets 30 more wpf it'll be so broken".
Title: Re: Hardcore throwing lobying
Post by: Turboflex on November 26, 2013, 08:24:09 pm
pure thrower is a stupid gimmick class why pretend it needs to be perfectly balanced?
Title: Re: Hardcore throwing lobying
Post by: DrTaco on November 26, 2013, 10:48:23 pm
Because you're wrong.
Title: Re: Hardcore throwing lobying
Post by: Swaggart on November 26, 2013, 11:22:01 pm
Now i'm not saying that you said I threw lances at shields, but you sure fucking make it look that way.

Of course it's fucking effective against light armor. And so is every other weapon in the fucking game. Stones can kill a light armor target given ~4 decent throws. I take issue with the throwing lance - which I suspect is designed to kill high armor, doesn't do its fucking job. Not to mention you've been 1 shot by lances? How about the many fucking times I throw the lances at someone with a heavy kuyak, to have them look at me, as if they're saying "LIKE I GIVE A FUCK" and kill me because the animation takes so long. And I'm not just getting hit by the fucking things, i'm throwing them. Now correct me if i'm wrong, but if I throw the fucking things and see this quite a bit of the time, it's probably more than you dying on the off chance you actually get hit with the fucking things.

How is throwing lance melee strong. How many times have you been killed by a throwing lance thrust and thought "If this gets 30 more wpf it'll be so broken".

So you think its entirely fair that a throwing lance should 1 shot anything on the field? Even arbalests can't 1 shot everything (barring a headshot), they cant even 1 shot my measly 17 str 4 IF self, but throwing lances do. If a STR and IF heavy build can't survive a lance, then there is no point to the build, especially with the WPF changes.

Also, you seriously underestimate how much of an impact 30 more WPF will have on a 103 speed weapon, not to mention you're further diminishing the damage penalty of not having enough WPF. Besides, I already thought (pre-patch) that the melee mode was broken.
Title: Re: Hardcore throwing lobying
Post by: DrTaco on November 27, 2013, 12:05:46 am
Yes, I think it's fair. If you somehow get hit with a lance the, it shouldn't matter how much plate you have, that pierce damage should kill you. An Arbalest has the ammo, accuracy, and low requirements that the comparison can't be made. There's a tradeoff between incredible strength and decent reliability. And for fucks sake 30 wpf does not make the game breaking difference. If you have trouble with the prepatch melee mode from the lances, then  I don't know what to tell you. Maybe your only hope is to get a 13 shield build and tape down the right mouse button, because you just can't block.
Title: Re: Hardcore throwing lobying
Post by: Swaggart on November 27, 2013, 12:12:19 am
Yes, I think it's fair. If you somehow get hit with a lance the, it shouldn't matter how much plate you have, that pierce damage should kill you. An Arbalest has the ammo, accuracy, and low requirements that the comparison can't be made. There's a tradeoff between incredible strength and decent reliability. And for fucks sake 30 wpf does not make the game breaking difference. If you have trouble with the prepatch melee mode from the lances, then  I don't know what to tell you. Maybe your only hope is to get a 13 shield build and tape down the right mouse button, because you just can't block.

Lol ok you win dude. Make throwing lances 1 shot everything in ranged and in melee mode too.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Hardcore throwing lobying
Post by: DrTaco on November 27, 2013, 12:40:43 am
I guess that's what you resort to when you can't keep a coherent argument. Fair enough, victory for Throwing against the 2h nerdspam
Title: Re: Hardcore throwing lobying
Post by: Lt_Anders on November 27, 2013, 12:54:32 am
Lol ok you win dude. Make throwing lances 1 shot everything in ranged and in melee mode too.

(click to show/hide)

Lances don't 1 shot shit. I use them every time, and they rarely 1 shot anything below 30 armor(30-45 is a maybe depending on speed bonus and location of impact cause arms/legs do less damage.) past 45, it takes 2. If anything, the arbalest is more fearsome than the lance.

2 hits anything(almost), has 10-15 shots, 15str requirement, only wpf.
Throwing lances in melee are equivalent to a short spear which sucks against most upper medium armors, (The most common armor) They are short and require the highest strength requirement in the game of any weapon. Period. If anything, the lance is a horrible weapon useful for 1 thing. Scaring the shit out of anyone but shielders who get near you.
Title: Re: Hardcore throwing lobying
Post by: Swaggart on November 27, 2013, 01:46:14 am
I cant keep a coherent argument, yet you haven't made any except for throwing lances should be stronger because I can't 1 shot everything.

Top lel.

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Title: Re: Hardcore throwing lobying
Post by: Lt_Anders on November 27, 2013, 02:01:55 am
I cant keep a coherent argument, yet you haven't made any except for throwing lances should be stronger because I can't 1 shot everything.

Top lel.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Can't come up with an argument using facts. Makes erroneous claims, and then leaves thread.

In fact, I never made a stand on lances other than various and perceived facts about them. If anything, I'm more for making other weapons require more strength. Why should a throwing lance require the most strength in the game, yet almost no other weapon requires greater than 18?(20 for GM and LM is 18)
Title: Re: Hardcore throwing lobying
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on November 27, 2013, 03:18:41 am
Think moving it to 6 PT for more hybrid use would be good.

Someone with 12 PT and +3 lances should really be oneshotting people in medium-high armor if they have 0 IF and 18 or below strength since it's fairly likely that they'll 2-shot with jarids, but meh.

Maybe make PT WPF penalty decrease with higher ranks instead of a flat rate so that it's more like PD?
Title: Re: Hardcore throwing lobying
Post by: Tydeus on November 27, 2013, 03:32:31 am
Maybe make PT WPF penalty decrease with higher ranks instead of a flat rate so that it's more like PD?
Yeah, I think that's the better solution so far.
Title: Re: Hardcore throwing lobying
Post by: DrTaco on November 27, 2013, 04:16:05 am
Think moving it to 6 PT for more hybrid use would be good.

Someone with 12 PT and +3 lances should really be oneshotting people in medium-high armor if they have 0 IF and 18 or below strength since it's fairly likely that they'll 2-shot with jarids, but meh.

Maybe make PT WPF penalty decrease with higher ranks instead of a flat rate so that it's more like PD?

Hm, that sounds like a good solution.
Title: Re: Hardcore throwing lobying
Post by: dontgothere on November 28, 2013, 01:52:09 am
I've been on this soap box for years and the devs only make things worse. I called it back then: they intend for throwing weapons to really only be viable as backup in certain melee builds, they don't look at throwing as its own class the way they do sword and boarders, two-handers, archers, cavalry or even xbows.

As far as I know there aren't any builds more throwing-focused than the one I use, and in this last patch I only got nerfed. I still have to invest the exact same amount of points into WM and Agi as before, and now I have 22 wpf less. I only just BARELY make the requirement for 11 PT, at 121 wpf. I play naked but now I don't even have the option to wear any "real" armor, assuming it weight lowers wpf like before.

The whole problem could be solved by getting serious about specializing the stats and functions of throwing weapons, rebalancing the types and tiers, but the only time the devs have ever changed the stats that I can recall was to nerf throwing rocks, nerf heavy throwing axes, and buff franciscas...wut?!? lol

Throwing lance shouldn't be lowered to 6 PT if what you're trying to do is get throwing to work right as its own class that people can dip a toe into at low tiers if they're hybrid or devote themselves to in order to access teh powerful shits. Keep PT requirements high for the best throwing equipment, but buff their stats so that they're actually useful. I have 11 PT and I've had throwing lance headshots fail to kill against plate helms, or take three or four lances to kill them if I land torso or limb hits, and I've had torso shots fail to one-shot archers. Throwing lances should be arbalests with faster reloads but a tiny fraction of the ammo and heavily restricted range, case closed.

There's no way to get any positive changes made to throwing balance while the devs who have been changing it are still in charge. There's a bias against throwing as it's appreciated by the people who play it. If you just post about it here they won't even read it. PM Tydeus directly on the forum or IRC telling him you don't like these changes, and use the IRC room to discuss it; they pay more attention there than to posts.
Title: Re: Hardcore throwing lobying
Post by: Lt_Anders on November 28, 2013, 02:55:20 am
you can wear light armor as long as it's below 9 weight, I believe.

Also, 11 PT is on the upper end of the strength scale, and this was ment to be that way. Strength heavy got a nerf(all classes). If anything, you should be 21-27 strength max.
Title: Re: Hardcore throwing lobying
Post by: Bulzur on December 01, 2013, 01:31:24 am
Even with a 21/21 dedicated thrower at lv30 (3 athletics, 0 PS, 0 IF), i still feel the randomness of throwing.


Throwing lances are just perfect against cav, against people on the ground (90% hitrate, i'll say, thanks to riders sometimes sliding into a tree/wall/box, and your throwing lance hitting that before hitting the body). It's excellent against immobile targets (aim for the body, and stop moving).

It's a good fear factor against unshielded wanderers. I don't know how many times i must have thrown lances 1 pixel out of the opponent's hitboxes...


And i also hate the ammunition/slot system with some throwing weapons (javelins and jarids, for example, still take up slots, even with 0 ammo... wich prevents you from picking a new throwing axe AND a 1h melee weapon... always drop one).

Apart from that, it's definitely fun. Being useless in melee has it's drawback. At lv32, i'll probably pump 6 points in PS...
Title: Re: Hardcore throwing lobying
Post by: NJ_Legion_Icedtea on December 01, 2013, 02:01:11 am
onehitting 2h spamzergs with lances is fun for sure :P
I am not saying this is wrong, but just reminded me the other day when an archer got hit with a +3 throwing lance and survived, made me laugh
Title: Re: Hardcore throwing lobying
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 01, 2013, 02:03:40 am
I am not saying this is wrong, but just reminded me the other day when an archer got hit with a +3 throwing lance and survived, made me laugh
...the people I've seen with 3+ throwing lances stuck in their heads...