cRPG

cRPG => Beginner's Help and Guides => Topic started by: Scervo on October 20, 2013, 01:21:40 am

Title: stabbing with long weapons
Post by: Scervo on October 20, 2013, 01:21:40 am
I just went polearm for a gen, I like using the 2d ones because its different than how im used to playing, but I have trouble stabbing up close with the longer ones. I know basically you have to start the stab not aiming at them and then turn to where you are, but whats the best way to do this? Like what direction should I be using? Any other tips for stabbing up close with long weapons?
Title: Re: stabbing with long weapons
Post by: Gurnisson on October 20, 2013, 01:28:01 am
Sky-stabbing. Basically stab upwards to get momentum and drag it into their face to deal as much damage as you can. Start easy by just blocking and doing standard sky-stabs back. When you get more used to it you can start wiggling your stabs as well, which basically means holding attack while moving the spear around and releasing it when you believe your opponent will drop his block. Works very well, even on good players. Wiggling it from side to side across his face/body for then to do a quick sky-stab is quite easy and works well with a little practice.
Title: Re: stabbing with long weapons
Post by: Scervo on October 20, 2013, 02:15:01 am
This helps a lot, thank you, but I don't really understand the part about wiggling to side to side. What advantage would that give?
Title: Re: stabbing with long weapons
Post by: Lemon on October 20, 2013, 04:16:38 am
Looks like you're striking and also less chance to glance :)


chance to glance
i'm a poet
and i dont even
know it
Title: Re: stabbing with long weapons
Post by: Johammeth on October 20, 2013, 05:06:52 am
As I understand it:

There's an initial "dead space" at the beginning of each attack animation, a split second where the weapon is in motion, but it will automatically glance if it hits anything.

If you're standing right next to somebody, and you jab them straight on, you will hit them with the dead space and automatically glance.

But

If you're standing right next to somebody and you start the attack by stabbing the air next to them, it will hit only empty space during the dead zone (thereby avoiding the glance). After the attack is in motion, and has avoided the deadspin, grab your mouse and swing it to face the other side of your target. The weapon will magically stab them because the animation is now in its "active" phase (eg, not autoglance dead space).

Also you'll get a little damage boost, since this spear wiggling counts towards your speed bonus.

edit: whoops, I misread your original post.

Aim to the right, release attack, suddenly WHOOOOSH mouse over to the left side.

It's the same motion as some cartoonish boxer swinging a wildly exaggerated right hook. You have to pull wayy back (aim to the right) and then follow through (WOOSH to the left). The more exaggerated your pullback and WOOSH is, the closer you can bring the active phase of the animation to your character, and the closer you can facestab people.

Just remember that your weapon MODEL itself has nothing to do with scoring a hit. Focus, instead, on manipulating the invisible hitbox that DOES determine whether or not you hit.

edit2:

I'm bored and worked up a shitty infographic about wigglyspear facestabs for any new players who stumble across this thread.

Enjoy:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: stabbing with long weapons
Post by: Nyu on October 20, 2013, 08:21:35 am
If you want to spare the enemy from your sky-bullshit-attacks you can also block-nudge them far enough away to run/turn to the next target.
Title: Re: stabbing with long weapons
Post by: Froto_the_Loc on October 21, 2013, 04:33:56 am
Scumbag playstyle. Dont do it.
Title: Re: stabbing with long weapons
Post by: Scervo on October 21, 2013, 04:47:33 am
Quote from: Froto_the_Loc on October 21, 2013, 04:33:56 am
Scumbag playstyle. Dont do it.

So which playstyle isn't seen as scummy by the c-rpg community? Strength 2h? No.. they whine about that all the time. Agility 2h! Wait no.. they cry about longswords and HBS being too fast too. Hmm.. RANGED! Oh wait that "ruins the game" if i remember correctly. So lets see whats left.. well you just said polearms are scummy... 1h? But no! 1h stab is so OP! Lets see that leaves cav- ohwait no, people hate that too. I guess I'll just have to use a 1/1 build with no armor or weapons and punch people to death.
Title: Re: stabbing with long weapons
Post by: defodijabox on October 21, 2013, 06:09:33 am
Quote from: Scervo on October 21, 2013, 04:47:33 am
I guess I'll just have to use a 1/1 build with no armor or weapons and punch people to death.

Nah you would still be a scumbag if you did that because you would be a useless shit on the team.
Only way to not be a scumbag is to not play cRPG.
Title: Re: stabbing with long weapons
Post by: Phew on October 21, 2013, 06:14:24 pm
You can call them scumbag/exploit/whatever tactics:
-Lolstab (this includess thrusting past your target, then dragging into them for full damage)
-Miss overhead, drag into target for full damage
-Hiltslash (i.e. hit for nearly full damage very early in the animation)
-Abusing the huge stagger cone of kicks
-1h attack nudge->free hit

They all have 2 things in common:
-They are pretty much the only way to kill good players now
-They all look stupid and unrealistic

It's a shame that to be effective now, you pretty much have to resort to tactics that don't even remotely resemble medieval combat. I'm pretty sure knights weren't facing the opposite direction of the guy they were fighting so they could execute "lolstabs" and hiltslashes.

Title: Re: stabbing with long weapons
Post by: Teeth on October 21, 2013, 07:43:16 pm
Scervo, you shouldn't be bothered at all by using these techniques, the mechanics simply force you to do it. Sure dealing damage without hitting people with the tip might be unrealistic, but hardly much more than being able to block any stab by leveling your weapon in front of you horizontally and being able to walk through an extended sharp stick, which is why people get to facehug you all the time in the first place. In case you didn't know, it doesn't work like that in real life. Pikes reigned supreme in melee warfare, so the functionality in cRPG is rather limited compared to reality anyway. If someone gives you shit, tell him to stop abusing the bullshit downblock mechanic.

On to stabbing at close range. What Johammeth said is correct, there is a part of the animation where you will deal very low damage. I specifically say low instead of no, because when using a very high damage stab or when stabbing at someone without armour, you stop glancing much earlier in the animation. The trick is to skip this part by missing your opponent and then moving it back into him for the damage dealing part. I'd say the damage dealing part starts about halfway the animation, depends on how high damage your stab is so it's best to just practice a lot and get a feel for it.

Now this missing and then moving back into your opponent has gotten more complicated since they have been messing with turn speed. It used to be the case that any stab could hit at any reach by just wiggling it inwards from the left or right side of your opponent, which is what Johammeth explained. With lower turn rates, say anything below ashwood pike, this has become really rare or impossible, depending on the armour of the target. Turnrate is calculated with a formula using length and weight. You cannot avoid the low damage part of the animation and turn it back into someone from the side at facehug range with a longspear, because the turning isn't fast enough.

Turn rate only affects horizontal turning speed though, which means your vertical speed is completely untouched. Which means that with a longspear you can miss your opponent by aiming over his head, and then dragging it back down to hit his head and not glance. It takes some practice but it's possible to pull this consistently, fighting any armour. You got to practice it a lot though to be able to do it quick enough. Remember though that is does actually do much lower damage than a proper range stab, although this gets partly remedied by hitting the head, and looking up quickly greatly obscures your vision and might lead to not seeing certain threats coming for a split second or missing your opponent because he moved. Another difficulty that can be removed by either using a only stab weapon or using inverse attack direction is that to do an up-down stab, you first have to move down to select the stab, then up, then down again, which is a little awkward.

(click to show/hide)
Here's an example of me doing a close range stab with an ashwood pike + shield. You can see here and in the rest of the video that I don't continously purely stab up and down, sometimes I use side stabbing or diagonal stabbing and what not. Because of the disadvantages of up-down stabbing mentioned above, I try to stab in a way that will allow me to hit while maintaining good vision and also do some confusing wiggling. Basically more turnrate on your weapon and more distance between you and the target means that you don't need the fast turning from vertical movement as much. At max reach stabbing straight is good enough, medium reach just requires sideways movement and close reach a combination of up-down and sideways movement. You gotta learn the full up-down stab though for the real facehug situations and the kickstabs, which are an amazing tool.

Understanding the theory is important, but practice is key. Practice to get the proper timing with all weapons and practice to get it to proper speed. If I pull of a good up-down stab I can prevent getting spammed by pretty much anything even when using a longspear, you gotta really nail it though when it comes to left-swinging steelpicks. People will often go for the spam hit, and that is when you punish them with a quick face stab. Then they whine about it and say it's bullshit, even though it's their fault for thinking they can attack again after getting blocked.

Oh, notable exception is the pike. It cannot stab at facehug range as it simply has no hit detection for like the first 2 feet of the pole (fun fact: this allows you to stab straight through any objects which are less than two feet thick, including teammates, gates and walls).
Title: Re: stabbing with long weapons
Post by: Nightmare798 on October 21, 2013, 08:35:18 pm
Hold s key and mash left mouse button.

THATS IT! YOU WIN!
Title: Re: stabbing with long weapons
Post by: Vodner on October 21, 2013, 08:43:37 pm
Quote from: Nightmare798 on October 21, 2013, 08:35:18 pm
Hold s key and mash left mouse button.

THATS IT! YOU WIN!
Congratulations, you are the most obnoxious poster these forums have seen in a long time.
Title: Re: stabbing with long weapons
Post by: Nightmare798 on October 21, 2013, 08:49:32 pm
Quote from: Vodner on October 21, 2013, 08:43:37 pm
Congratulations, you are the most obnoxious poster these forums have seen in a long time.

I use hoplite, I know what I am talking about.
Title: Re: stabbing with long weapons
Post by: Algarn on October 21, 2013, 10:25:28 pm
You red saber says a lot more about you than yourself.

About the topic, what listen teeth and gurnison. They are pain on the battlefield.
Title: Re: stabbing with long weapons
Post by: Nightmare798 on November 17, 2013, 08:43:34 pm
Quote from: Gurnisson on October 20, 2013, 01:28:01 am
Sky-stabbing. Basically stab upwards to get momentum and drag it into their face to deal as much damage as you can. Start easy by just blocking and doing standard sky-stabs back. When you get more used to it you can start wiggling your stabs as well, which basically means holding attack while moving the spear around and releasing it when you believe your opponent will drop his block. Works very well, even on good players. Wiggling it from side to side across his face/body for then to do a quick sky-stab is quite easy and works well with a little practice.


No disrespect, but teaching someone how to abuse an engine glitch is quite a dick move Gurnisson.
Title: Re: stabbing with long weapons
Post by: no_rules_just_play on November 17, 2013, 11:50:04 pm
Quote from: Nightmare798 on November 17, 2013, 08:43:34 pm

No disrespect, but teaching someone how to abuse an engine glitch is quite a dick move Gurnisson.
Shut your whore mouth, you cunt
Title: Re: stabbing with long weapons
Post by: Canuck on November 18, 2013, 05:54:43 am
There's no reason for him to withhold his advice. People helping each other out, isn't that what communities are all about?
Title: Re: stabbing with long weapons
Post by: Nightmare798 on November 18, 2013, 10:33:52 am
Quote from: Canuck on November 18, 2013, 05:54:43 am
There's no reason for him to withhold his advice. People helping each other out, isn't that what communities are all about?

There is a difference in advising someone how to be better at the game, and telling someone how to abuse a glitch of the engine.

But fuck me, I forgot that abusing glitches is as common here as sand in desert, so scratch that.
Title: Re: stabbing with long weapons
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on November 18, 2013, 11:24:15 am
As Teeth said, the "glitch" is pretty much necessary since people can walk into you so that your pointy weapon is inside them (zomg glitching ban they) and completely nullify any "legitimate" stab attempts.

I'm not even going to go into how weird it is that shorter stabby polearms can glance/be blocked at all on cloth armor when the tip is touching them, if it weren't for all the balance problems it would cause you should just be able to push the weapon into their squishy bits without any tricks.
Title: Re: stabbing with long weapons
Post by: Nightmare798 on November 18, 2013, 12:52:36 pm
Quote from: Huscarlton_Banks on November 18, 2013, 11:24:15 am
As Teeth said, the "glitch" is pretty much necessary since people can walk into you so that your pointy weapon is inside them (zomg glitching ban they) and completely nullify any "legitimate" stab attempts.

I'm not even going to go into how weird it is that shorter stabby polearms can glance/be blocked at all on cloth armor when the tip is touching them, if it weren't for all the balance problems it would cause you should just be able to push the weapon into their squishy bits without any tricks.

True, there should be something done about the noclipping weapon. maybe make it collide with character, so they cannot move past the point when the weapon is prepared for stab?

Title: Re: stabbing with long weapons
Post by: Gurnisson on November 18, 2013, 01:52:29 pm
If you had actually used those weapons more, you would've understood it. My first few days or weeks (being a year or two back, can't keep track of time) involved a lot of "wtf-glances", and with the thrust-stun, that would give your opponent a free hit often. Of course you would look for a way to avoid it, if you want to improve at the game. Yes, it looks retarded at times, but I can't be arsed giving an auto-win to my enemy because of that ridiculous thrust-stun. To be honest, these 2d polearms were never as retarded as the 1h attack nudge at its worst. I ran around 2-3 shotting strength builds in heavy armour with an agility build and a scottish. Nudge => Free head-hit. Play normally until cooldown is over, free hit from nudge again. Getting free 33 pierce hits to the head every couple of seconds was just ridiculous. :lol:

I preferred the longer stabby weapons more before the turn-nerf. Stabs weren't as instantenous as they are now, making most stabs easier to chamber and therefore more risky for the user (because thrust-stun again), and people dragged stabs from the side more than from the sky which gave less head-hits and, again, slower connection.
Title: Re: stabbing with long weapons
Post by: Osiris on November 18, 2013, 02:06:47 pm
Quote from: Nightmare798 on November 17, 2013, 08:43:34 pm

No disrespect, but teaching someone how to abuse an engine glitch is quite a dick move Gurnisson.

lucky he didn't teach him the gurn jump spin roflcopter :D still works sometimes i got khorin with it the other day ^^
Title: Re: stabbing with long weapons
Post by: Switchtense on November 18, 2013, 04:26:44 pm
when i started to use polearms (my current gen: 7) i got so frustrated cause i had no idea how to fight facehugging enemies (mostly played dtv)
was at the point of quitting polearms and going back to 2h (im an awful 2h'er :D) until people showed me how to sky stab, or turn stab and stuff, and now i found the build and class i find to be the most enjoyable one and im a lot more successful with it than when i was 2h for multiple gens, or 1h and ranged etc

so why not help someone who might find a lot of joy in playing it as well, in the end of the day, fun is what its all about since its a game

it might be exploiting mechanics, but which class does not do that? for pokey-polearms it is just the most obvious

and helping someone new to the class not to GTX it right after trying it out is everything but a dick-move
Title: Re: stabbing with long weapons
Post by: Elindor on November 18, 2013, 04:29:26 pm
Quote from: Scervo on October 21, 2013, 04:47:33 am
So which playstyle isn't seen as scummy by the c-rpg community?

Right now?
Polearms or GTFO apparently.  It's the weapon type for good players is what I hear.
Title: Re: stabbing with long weapons
Post by: Phew on November 18, 2013, 04:33:00 pm
Quote from: Elindor on November 18, 2013, 04:29:26 pm
Right now?
Polearms or GTFO apparently.  It's the weapon type for good players is what I hear.

Donkey-riding Pugilist. If someone gets kills solely with Donkey Punches, they are truly the best cRPG player.