cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Joseph Porta on October 13, 2013, 08:15:28 pm

Title: dual wielding
Post by: Joseph Porta on October 13, 2013, 08:15:28 pm
If it were to be implemented, most likely not, but would it be op?

discuss..

if it would be added I guess the simplest way to implement it is the left swing would be replaced with an animation that should the left hand making an attack move, it would be much slower then the current left swing that is held in the right hand, allthough I guess it's reach would be greater.
(i guess you could replace all the animations and make him do crazy assasins creed ninja shit with dual wield but this is just simple put.

having a different weapon in each hand and being able to combine shit like heavy blunt knockdown and a long strong cutter sounds op, I don't know how it would end up tbh, you do have your left swing severely gimped compared the the current one, no left swing spam angle, would it be op?

if i'm right, which im not sure i never take such thing into account when I garb up for some bloodshething  :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: , having two weapons will slow you down like crazy because of the weight?

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: dual wielding
Post by: no_rules_just_play on October 13, 2013, 08:19:57 pm
Nobody would every have taken a second sword and thought it was a good idea to fight with it in his left hand, maybe sometimes a dagger was used, but I don't think that ever happened in the time period crpg should be situated in
Title: Re: dual wielding
Post by: Joseph Porta on October 13, 2013, 08:24:08 pm
i'm not talking about realism im talking about wether on not it would be unbalancing in-game just discussing otherwise i wouldve posted it in the suggestion forum eh
Title: Re: dual wielding
Post by: Osiris on October 13, 2013, 08:25:09 pm
Dual wielding is virtually never mentioned in history its pretty much a hollywood/video game thing. crpg afaik wants to keep some kind of realism. Only time ive ever heard of dual wielding is in martial arts and rapier use. dual wielding gives you no real advantage in a battle situation and would make you weaker when parrying etc compared to a 2h grip

As such i am dead against dual wielding :D it looks retarded and would be a ton of work
Title: Re: dual wielding
Post by: Joseph Porta on October 13, 2013, 08:27:13 pm
i dont see at all how it would be an advantage, your left swing is pretty much your major attack as a 1h, losing that to another tad bit better right swing wouldn't give you any advantage.

I dont like it either but just theoreticalsomething, I real somewhere that it would be extremely spamming and OP but thats something I doubt
Title: Re: dual wielding
Post by: Gmnotutoo on October 13, 2013, 08:28:03 pm
I want to dual wield wakizashis.
Title: Re: dual wielding
Post by: Osiris on October 13, 2013, 08:29:38 pm
Quote from: Joseph_Porta on October 13, 2013, 08:27:13 pm
i dont see at all how it would be an advantage, your left swing is pretty much your major attack as a 1h, losing that to another tad bit better right swing wouldn't give you any advantage.

I dont like it either but just theoreticalsomething, I real somewhere that it would be extremely spamming and OP but thats something I doubt


hmm i said it gives no real advantage :D it could be implemented but with heavy stun as your stance would be terrible if trying to attack with both hands :D
Title: Re: dual wielding
Post by: MURDERTRON on October 13, 2013, 08:35:01 pm
Once I was hungover and I couldn't get myself to change the channel on TV.  But, what I saw is a cartoon where a guy had three swords.  You'll never guess where the third one was.  IN his MOUTH.  Why stop at dual wielding.  Tri wielding.  Go big or go home.

Also please add a crossbow that shoots bees.
Title: Re: dual wielding
Post by: Joseph Porta on October 13, 2013, 08:46:07 pm
Quote from: Osiris on October 13, 2013, 08:29:38 pm

hmm i said it gives no real advantage :D it could be implemented but with heavy stun as your stance would be terrible if trying to attack with both hands :D

a large crowd would like it cause they don't give 2 shits for realism and a large part would utterly detest it, I wonder if they would let it fare after they set their focus largely on mbg
Title: Re: dual wielding
Post by: Armycook_of_KSantiago on October 14, 2013, 01:17:19 am
make it like skyrim:dual wield cannot block, can only chamber,so u can control the left hand with ur right mouse buttom. And it will be pretty balanced imo.
Title: Re: dual wielding
Post by: Joseph Porta on October 14, 2013, 11:34:54 am
Quote from: Armycook_of_KSantiago on October 14, 2013, 01:17:19 am
make it like skyrim:dual wield cannot block, can only chamber,so u can control the left hand with ur right mouse buttom. And it will be pretty balanced imo.

Chamber only would result in you getting ganked by any shielder, would rather be underpowered ^^

Also this wasn't a suggestion T_T
Title: Re: dual wielding
Post by: Utrakil on October 14, 2013, 04:21:09 pm
Quote from: Osiris on October 13, 2013, 08:25:09 pm
Dual wielding is virtually never mentioned in history its pretty much a hollywood/video game thing. crpg afaik wants to keep some kind of realism. Only time ive ever heard of dual wielding is in martial arts and rapier use. dual wielding gives you no real advantage in a battle situation and would make you weaker when parrying etc compared to a 2h grip

As such i am dead against dual wielding :D it looks retarded and would be a ton of work

Have a look at philipine martial arts. it is called escrima,arnis or kali and double wielding is an essential part of it. Today it is fought with two sticks, but these sticks are placeholders for short swords (or long knives)
at 5:39 you have double stick action

To implement into crpg I think the only way would be a lefthand parriing dagger. It will be used like a shield. you can block with it and the nudge attacks will deal some damage.
But I think this is unnessessary and will jeopardize the whole ballance.

Title: Re: dual wielding
Post by: no_rules_just_play on October 14, 2013, 04:57:09 pm
Quote from: Utrakil on October 14, 2013, 04:21:09 pm

wow this guy is awesome, they either are very good actors or these recruits are really hitting hard and aiming for his face
Title: Re: dual wielding
Post by: Utrakil on October 14, 2013, 06:12:16 pm
an other double wielding video:
Title: Re: dual wielding
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on October 14, 2013, 09:01:52 pm
Sticks weigh less than swords I would imagine.  And they can hit on any edge with a stick (since it's blunted).  I'd like to see it done with two swords.  I can see someone using a dagger in their off hand to stick the enemy while your swords are tied up, or when the opportunity presents itself.  I can't imagine someone being more skilled with a sword in both hands, compared to one.
Title: Re: dual wielding
Post by: no_rules_just_play on October 14, 2013, 09:08:13 pm
Quote from: CrazyCracka420 on October 14, 2013, 09:01:52 pm
Sticks weigh less than swords I would imagine.  And they can hit on any edge with a stick (since it's blunted).  I'd like to see it done with two swords.  I can see someone using a dagger in their off hand to stick the enemy while your swords are tied up, or when the opportunity presents itself.  I can't imagine someone being more skilled with a sword in both hands, compared to one.
or one of those sword breakers to break the opponent's sword.
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Title: Re: dual wielding
Post by: Utrakil on October 14, 2013, 10:03:13 pm
Quote from: CrazyCracka420 on October 14, 2013, 09:01:52 pm
Sticks weigh less than swords I would imagine.  And they can hit on any edge with a stick (since it's blunted).  I'd like to see it done with two swords.  I can see someone using a dagger in their off hand to stick the enemy while your swords are tied up, or when the opportunity presents itself.  I can't imagine someone being more skilled with a sword in both hands, compared to one.

The only footage with two real swords i found is from the thai martial art Krabi Krabong.
It's a show demonstration and starts very slow. but if you skip to 4:00 you will see the fast action.
it isn't that easy to find them fighting with real sword. there is a very good safetyreason why the martial art is only practiced with sticks.

I also found a short demo of espada + knife in the Filipino martial arts. go to 8:00
Title: Re: dual wielding
Post by: Paul on October 15, 2013, 11:35:45 am
Would only make sense for a renaissance themed mod with off-hand dagger stuff. Won't happen for crpg.
Title: Re: dual wielding
Post by: MURDERTRON on October 15, 2013, 05:31:22 pm
Quote from: CrazyCracka420 on October 14, 2013, 09:01:52 pm
Sticks weigh less than swords I would imagine.  And they can hit on any edge with a stick (since it's blunted).  I'd like to see it done with two swords.  I can see someone using a dagger in their off hand to stick the enemy while your swords are tied up, or when the opportunity presents itself.  I can't imagine someone being more skilled with a sword in both hands, compared to one.

How dare you!  Spartacus on Showtime was 100% historically accurate.
Title: Re: dual wielding
Post by: Xant on October 15, 2013, 07:32:06 pm
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Students of the Ichi school Way of strategy should train from the start with the sword and the long sword in either hand. This is a truth: when you sacrifice your life, you must make fullest use of your weaponry. It is false not to do so, and to die with a weapon yet undrawn.

It is better to use two swords rather than one when you are fighting a crowd, and especially if you want to take a prisoner.

- Miyamato Musashi.
Title: Re: dual wielding
Post by: Jarlek on October 16, 2013, 12:12:50 am
Quote from: Xant on October 15, 2013, 07:32:06 pm
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It is better to use two swords rather than one when you are fighting a crowd, and especially if you want to take a prisoner.

- Miyamato Musashi.
It is better to use a shield with your sword rather than two when you are fighting pretty much anything, and especially if you want to smack a bitch in the face.

 - Jarlek The Dumbass
Title: Re: dual wielding
Post by: Paul on October 16, 2013, 08:32:21 am
I have read Musashi's Book of Five Rings. How I understood it his main point is to not neglect the development of the weaker arm. Or in general not to have preferences because those equal weaknesses. It is more of a philosophical thing. A commander who strongly relies on cavalry is screwed when being lured to fight in heavy terrain. A fighter that has his dominant arm injured is defenseless if he didn't train his weaker arm before.

He wrote to use both swords when fighting a group of weaker enemies. However against a strong opponent he states that using the sword twohanded is the best course of action. Yet who but maybe a master is not screwed when fighting alone against a crowd? I think for most it is best to assume that the other guy is one's equal in strength and thus to use the own weapon two-handed - especially when armor is involved. Or get a shield, my old friendget.
Title: Re: dual wielding
Post by: Xant on October 16, 2013, 09:53:23 am
Musashi created and refined a two-sword kenjutsu technique called niten'ichi (二天一, "two heavens as one") or nitōichi (二刀一, "two swords as one") or 'Niten Ichi-ryū' (A Kongen Buddhist Sutra refers to the two heavens as the two guardians of Buddha). In this technique, the swordsman uses both a large sword, and a "companion sword" at the same time, such as a katana with a wakizashi.

It isn't purely a philosophical thing, there's a whole school of swordsmanship based on it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niten_Ichi-ry%C5%AB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Z7LDXpAohjQ#t=179


He preferred wielding a sword in one hand, even if not accompanied by a companion sword, and only using both hands if necessary.

If you hold a sword with both hands, it is difficult to wield it freely to left and right, so my method is to carry the sword in one hand. This does not apply to large weapons such as the spear or halberd, but swords and companion swords can be carried in one hand. It is encumbering to hold a sword in both hands when you are on horseback, when running on uneven roads, on swampy ground, muddy rice fields, stony ground, or in a crowd of people. To hold the long sword in both hands is not the true Way, for if you carry a bow or spear or other arms in your left hand you have only one hand free for the long sword. However, when it is difficult to cut an enemy down with one hand, you must use both hands. It is not difficult to wield a sword in one hand; the Way to learn this is to train with two long swords, one in each hand. It will seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first. Bows are difficult to draw, halberds are difficult to wield; as you become accustomed to the bow so your pull will become stronger. When you become used to wielding the long sword, you will gain the power of the Way and wield the sword well.
Title: Re: dual wielding
Post by: Jona on October 16, 2013, 08:26:53 pm
The way I see it, dual wielding could easily fit in with crpg... coming from the realism angle, using only one sword and having a free off-hand was more effective in real combat because you used that arm for grappling maneuvers, which aren't present in crpg. Also, dual wielding was used in the far east (very rarely, like pretty much only musashi and his disciples) and let us not forget that for better or for worse we DO have eastern weapons present in crpg. You can't say that it would only fit in a renaissance-era setting while it was indeed around at this time, just not in the west.  Also looking at crpg now.. there are plenty of unrealistic things going on... archers, xbows, and throwers (was throwing even a dedicated "class?" I always thought that warriors like vikings would occasionally throw their axes if necessary... but seriously... someone who ONLY threw shit? wtf...remove throwing) who fight openly in a battlefield with no sidearm. They belong on top of a castle's walls! Also melee heroes without a shield... no one would be yoloing around like that in real life unless they were a fully plated knight... and even then many knights used shields. Sure, there are stories of warriors going berserk and wielding a giant 2handed axe and wrecking shit, but there are just as many stories of vikings picking up second swords/axes and doing similarly heroic feats. Long story short, crpg isn't at all a medieval combat simulator... its just a game about swords.

I think that if dual wielding was ever implemented in this game (or another similar one) it should be similar to real life, where dual wielding was harder to use, and gave very little payoff. To preserve the "difficulty" of using two weapons I would suggest that you swing the left-hand weapon by clicking the LMB and moving the mouse in the desired direction, to swing the right-hand weapon you click the RMB and move the mouse, and to block you click in the scroll wheel (MB3) and move the mouse in the desired direction. Adding the 3rd button kind of, if only barely, makes it more difficult for players to use. Also, the only advantage a player gains from using this method (in crpg or warband at least) would be that they could wield two different weapons at once, therefore having two different option to attack with... maybe a stabby sword and cutting axe, or a mace with knockdown and a high-damage cutting weapon in the other hand... or the ultimate tincan-cracking combination of mace + pick.

I personally would love to see dual wielding implemented just to play around with all the endless combinations... short spammy wep + long slow wep... stabby sword + cutting sword... the list goes on and on. Granted, I would much rather have existing "issues" worked on long before this would ever be looked at, it would still be a neat feature. But of course even if the devs thought it was realistic enough to add, the main challenge is the fact that it would be one heck of a bitch to code and make the custom animations for... so as Paul said we will never see it in crpg. Would be cool, won't happen.
Title: Re: dual wielding
Post by: Thomek on October 17, 2013, 02:52:04 am
Actually, I think the code to a reasonable dual wield might be in place somehow. If one would give a little extra damage to the nudge for dueal wielders, they could equip a "Shield" aka 2nd weapon that would not protect against ranged, but would do much more nudge damage.

Just soloed black pits with a katana dual wielding blade..  :twisted:
Title: Re: dual wielding
Post by: Joseph Porta on October 17, 2013, 02:51:13 pm
Quote from: Thomek on October 17, 2013, 02:52:04 am


Just soloed black pits with a katana dual wielding blade..  :twisted:

Lol  :lol:

Ban  :evil:
Title: Re: dual wielding
Post by: Silfarion on December 23, 2013, 12:49:09 pm
i can see it now

longsword flamberge dual wield combo gg
Title: Re: dual wielding
Post by: RamsesXXIIX on December 23, 2013, 02:57:36 pm

This guy makes it clear that duel wielding is definitely evident in history, but it was not used as a battlefield set-up.
Title: Re: dual wielding
Post by: Strudog on December 23, 2013, 03:04:32 pm
Quote from: Silfarion on December 23, 2013, 12:49:09 pm
i can see it now

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longsword flamberge dual wield combo gg

Those muscles  :oops: