cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: DumpsterNerd on October 11, 2013, 08:06:11 am
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I play a thrower. I don't want to see throwing nerfed, and I would love to see it buffed, but I don't think that would happen (this line is a joke). I know recently a lot of people complain (specifically about Jarids, even though they haven't seen a stat change in a long time -- I would say 2 years but my memory is not that good XD)
One of my main complaints as a thrower is there is no reason for variety. I carry throwing lances for the fun of watching someone die with a big-ole-dicklet sticking out of them, but honestly nothing really compares to jarids.
To me, major factors to consider for throwing (on both sides -- thrower complaints and target complaints) are several factors:
1.) Spear-type throwing weapons (jarids, throwing lances, war darts, etc) are the best throwing type. Hands-down post Heavy Throwing Axe nerf (I always thought spear-types were better pre nerf too). They fly the best, they perform the most consistently, and they do pierce. Most high end throwing spears also have 3 ammo, with throwing spears (I mean the actual weapon, throwing spears) having a whopping 4!
2.) Damage per stack is a major concern. Thus, this leads to low tier throwing weapons being shit (not enough damage vs limited ammo capacity), even with high PT. Why try to kill someone with 2 war darts, when I do the more damage with 1 jarid, and consume less ammo per stack. In addition, I have to hit two shots as opposed to 1. I guess that (2 hits vs 1 hit) is not a major factor, but the jarid is more accurate. I'm not saying this should be 100% balanced (remember, war darts are way cheaper), but I just wanted to point this factor out. Another damage vs stack comparison is 2 Heavy throwing axe vs 3 jarids. The damage gap very quickly becomes laughable at 50 armor (I would consider 50 medium body armor, considering most people have loom body armors these days).
3.) M&B ranged model issues. Sometimes it's lag, sometimes it's just the way projectiles fly, but it's actually very easy to miss a point blank target even with high WPF. I've played as a pure thrower with all my WPF dumped into throwing, and watched my jarid fly wide right at 10 yards (and sail into a teammate 10 yards behind!). I mean, a paraplegic could probably throw a spear better than that. I know I could throw one more accurately and I haven't spent 30 years of my life throwing them like my character had...
4.) Throwing is high-risk, high-reward. You miss your lance? You die, and your family doesn't eat cause you lost the 5x. You hit the lance? Your family feasts on the carcass of the infidel you've just slain. This applies to all decent throwing weapons -- and I think it's actually a good thing. It encourages you to scavenge ammo (don't delay!) and to be cautious with your shot. Each missed shot towards an enemy means you aren't getting that ammo back unless you kill/kite him. The downside to this from a melee perspective is, if you get hit by a thrower, you will feel it. This causes lots of 'Jarids OP' and 'Throwing OP' rage.
5.) Throwing is easy to hybrid, but the pure thrower truly suffers. Because of WPF vs throwing accuracy scaling, even 100 throwing WPF is enough to make you dangerous at 10 yards, but 170 WPF doesn't seem much better.
Now, I've come up with what I feel are some talking points towards possible solutions. Please consider these ideas on principle, not on numbers. If you think the numbers are too high/too low don't let that make you disagree with the idea. These were just suggestions. :
Let's differentiate the throwing lines up a bit:
-- Throwing knives/ninja stars -> These weapons should be medium throwing range (I consider throwing axes medium throwing range), but should be laser accurate towards 130+ WPF. In addition, the knives would need a minor cut damage boost (suggestion: 22 on throwing knives, 26 on daggers) and I think ninja stars should be changed to pierce across the board, but receive damage nerf across the board of -1 or -2 pierce.
-- Rocks and smoke bombs -> Don't change them. These are crappy, but fine.
-- Throwing hammers -> These should be a little bit longer range than they currently are. Maybe decrease the weight on them as well. Damage-wise these feel perfect.
-- Axes (Francisca, Throwing axe, Heavy throwing axe) -> Damage and range feel fine. To differentiate these versus throwing spear-types, these should receive an ammo bonus at masterwork rank. This allows those who invest in these axes to push the gap closer to throwing spear-types in terms of damage per stack ratio (an all important matter for throwers).
-- Spears -> These should be your longer-ranged projectiles designed for killing tin cans. They currently execute that roll perfectly. I think they are in a perfect spot as is, and I get hit by this shit all the time.
I can't really think of a way to address the low-wpf throwing hybrid 'issues' people seem to be concerned about. My only really thought would be to apply some sort of 'cut off' where throwing WPF performed dramatically better (maybe around 120, when WPF points get expensive?). I don't know if that can be done though.
I don't know, I'm really freaking tired, but it may be nice to start a discussion. Personally I don't think you can nerf throwing damage without significantly increasing its accuracy. Throwing is already very close range, and good melee players, who are aware of the thrower, can actively and usually successfully engage them. The issue usually comes when you don't see the thrower, or when it's a low-athletics player in heavy armor. But then again, throwing weapons were designed to kill these targets in this game.
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It is a good idea to start a discussion in a way like that.
2-) I must say I agree with most of your points, jarids are the best throwing weapons no matter how you look at it. On the other hand, I don't think war darts is a bad option. They have pierce damage, 7 ammo and the same projectile speed with jarids. Their accuracy is also fairly well (I think weapon damage also lowers the actual accuracy in throwing weapons too). I'd say they are a nice cheap yet viable alternative to jarids. They are very good for supporting. The damage of them seems also low, but sometimes you only need to deal 10 damage to kill someone. With a war dart you spend 1/14 of your ammo, with jarids you spend 1/6 of your ammo (people get 2 stacks usually). This can be a very good thing. Besides, you can always score headshots to deal 20-30 damage which is mostly enough. I'm not saying war darts are better than jarids, but they are more than a viable option for me. It just shines on different circumstances, mostly crowded battles where you always need to spare some throwing as backup.
5-) I think throwing is made to be this way. To be sub-catagories to infantry classes. All from the beginning of development of M&B. I can't really argue why it should be like it or should be not. I am neutral on the subject.
What I think is, throwing is a fine way to make your infantry more well-suited for battle. 18/18 thrower/infantry over 21/18 infantry is a better option and it will always be. But that doesn't mean 21/18 is bad. In a 1v1, 21/18 will do better. In a crowded battle, 18/18 will do better to support the team but not always. I think it wouldn't be bad for the things to stay like this. However, throwing is way too damn expensive. I mean it's way too expensive than it should be. It is so expensive that I you do better by sticking to 21/18 infantry class, just like everything else in cRPG. The gold of throwing weapons should be decreased, for at least the high-tier weapons like jarids. And they must be balanced better so there will be more viable options to choose from.
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I play a thrower. I don't want to see throwing nerfed, and I would love to see it buffed, but I don't think that would happen (this line is a joke). I know recently a lot of people complain (specifically about Jarids, even though they haven't seen a stat change in a long time -- I would say 2 years but my memory is not that good XD)
One of my main complaints as a thrower is there is no reason for variety. I carry throwing lances for the fun of watching someone die with a big-ole-dicklet sticking out of them, but honestly nothing really compares to jarids.
To me, major factors to consider for throwing (on both sides -- thrower complaints and target complaints) are several factors:
1.) Spear-type throwing weapons (jarids, throwing lances, war darts, etc) are the best throwing type. Hands-down post Heavy Throwing Axe nerf (I always thought spear-types were better pre nerf too). They fly the best, they perform the most consistently, and they do pierce. Most high end throwing spears also have 3 ammo, with throwing spears (I mean the actual weapon, throwing spears) having a whopping 4!
2.) Damage per stack is a major concern. Thus, this leads to low tier throwing weapons being shit (not enough damage vs limited ammo capacity), even with high PT. Why try to kill someone with 2 war darts, when I do the more damage with 1 jarid, and consume less ammo per stack. In addition, I have to hit two shots as opposed to 1. I guess that (2 hits vs 1 hit) is not a major factor, but the jarid is more accurate. I'm not saying this should be 100% balanced (remember, war darts are way cheaper), but I just wanted to point this factor out. Another damage vs stack comparison is 2 Heavy throwing axe vs 3 jarids. The damage gap very quickly becomes laughable at 50 armor (I would consider 50 medium body armor, considering most people have loom body armors these days).
3.) M&B ranged model issues. Sometimes it's lag, sometimes it's just the way projectiles fly, but it's actually very easy to miss a point blank target even with high WPF. I've played as a pure thrower with all my WPF dumped into throwing, and watched my jarid fly wide right at 10 yards (and sail into a teammate 10 yards behind!). I mean, a paraplegic could probably throw a spear better than that. I know I could throw one more accurately and I haven't spent 30 years of my life throwing them like my character had...
4.) Throwing is high-risk, high-reward. You miss your lance? You die, and your family doesn't eat cause you lost the 5x. You hit the lance? Your family feasts on the carcass of the infidel you've just slain. This applies to all decent throwing weapons -- and I think it's actually a good thing. It encourages you to scavenge ammo (don't delay!) and to be cautious with your shot. Each missed shot towards an enemy means you aren't getting that ammo back unless you kill/kite him. The downside to this from a melee perspective is, if you get hit by a thrower, you will feel it. This causes lots of 'Jarids OP' and 'Throwing OP' rage.
5.) Throwing is easy to hybrid, but the pure thrower truly suffers. Because of WPF vs throwing accuracy scaling, even 100 throwing WPF is enough to make you dangerous at 10 yards, but 170 WPF doesn't seem much better.
99% of what you've typed up here is wrong, for one thing jarids are inferior to throwing spears by far. The only throwing weapons that aren't balanced are the 1 difficulty shittier ones like regular darts, and those shouldn't be buffed, and javelins, who should get 2 more ammo and less pierce.
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99% of what you've typed up here is wrong, for one thing jarids are inferior to throwing spears by far. The only throwing weapons that aren't balanced are the 1 difficulty shittier ones like regular darts, and those shouldn't be buffed, and javelins, who should get 2 more ammo and less pierce.
"Hi, I like to say things, then provide almost no basis for my argument." Let me give it a shot. Your post is 100% wrong, including the part bout me being 99% wrong. If you don't have anything constructive to say, then please stop shitposting in a constructive thread.
About the earlier poster, I'm not sure if throwing damage factors into accuracy, but obviously weight does (effective WPF reduction) so that likely explains war darts have relative better accuracy. You're right, war darts are good support though, but in battle, who plays dedicated support?
Now to a constructive argument. You're right, if we're considering damage per stack, theoretically throwing spears are theoretically better in a damage per stack setting, but the lack of accuracy is a major drawback. The reason why jarids are so good, is because their speed (increased range), and accuracy (easier to hit a target) and damage per single shot are far better. This is a major factor with throwing, as your target is not likely to let you dump more than 2 throwing weapons into them without them reacting. It's about a 5 damage difference at highWPF + 7PT per shot with a jarid vs a throwing spear. If you consider that throwing spears have roughly 93% of the accuracy as a jarid, that + the damage gap per stack (assuming you apply .93 * damage per shot) actually closes up significantly. Another key factor in throwing is the amount of shots it takes to do your damage, and also consider that if you miss a single spear vs hitting all jarids, the jarid instantly comes out ahead (without multiplying damage by .93), and by about a 33-50% margin on damage (depending upon the target). It's not a perfect comparison though. None of the above math factors in single-shot headshots, or speed bonuses, which significantly favor jarids towards one-shotting opponents.
There is an obvious reason many people throw jarids vs throwing spears. It's because that extra 1 ammo per stack isn't useful. A stack of jarids is already deadly enough. If you're going to do a 2slot hybrid (either 2h + throwing or 1h+shield + throwing) sure, I can understand the rational for wanting throwing spears (8vs 6 ammo). If you're going to go 3 or more slots dedicated to throwing, you don't need 12+ projectiles, unless you are spamming/missing.
Javelins shouldn't get 5 ammo, unless you put them closer to upper 20's (28 or 29 pierce). Otherwise, you would quickly erode the point of war darts, and create another useless throwing weapon. Remember, javelins are difficulty 3. I believe they are meant to be a cost-effective version, low requirement version of the upper tier throwing weapons, but because of that, they shouldn't be too good. 4 Per stack, with 30ish pierce does sound pretty decent (a cost effective version of throwing spears at this point).
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Just because you type a massive wall of jibber jabber doesn't mean anything you're typing is constructive, because I'm just that fucking nice I'll go ahead and type a long as fuck wall explaining why I'm right.
War darts are more than good support, they're excellent at everything the 1 difficulty ones are decent at, they're essentially versions of the 1 difficulty ones except that they're for people who could be bothered to throw more than 1 point and 20 wpf into throwing. With a 30/12 or so build war darts and the 1 diff throwing weapons become really powerful, had a 2:1 kd with 3+ stones and that build. But you don't need such a build to be viable, war darts are great at targeting unarmored horses, archers, reloading crossbowmen who you're approaching in order to beat them with melee while not wanting them to get that extra shot at you, anyone wearing light armor, and at spamming into large melee blobs.
The throwing axes, while their stats look pathetic, are awesome if used right, sure they're not the best 1h weapons, but all it takes is a guy s keying or being nudges a bit, and you can quickly switch to ranged mode and deal a near certain to hit shot at facehug range, and sure you can do that with throwing lances, but lances only got 4 ammo, meaning if you're a good thrower and melee player, and no other throwers are on to feed your stacks you can perform for far longer, the 15 missile speed allows for insane speed bonuses when shooting at shit from above, or when your weaponry is flying downwards after having been in flight for a while, they're also by far the best weapons for curving a shot over a shield or a shieldwall.
If you look at the percentages of damage and speed Spears sacrifice in exchange for getting 1 more ammo you'll see why spears are superior, an extra ammo is also insane, if you're doing shit right you'll usually have hit with all those 16 weapons before death, ofc missed some shots at first, but then looted the missed ammo later on, 4 stacks of spears is more or less 5 stacks of jarids, and once again, lower missile speed=more damage if used from above, or from a decent distance.
Javelins are the only underpowered throwing weapons (besides maybe hammers) that aren't 1 or less difficulty, their difficulty is admittedly decently low, but that in no way makes up for those horrible stats, percentage based they'd be giving up slightly less for 2 extra ammo on the current stats than Spears are, which is why I suggest lowering their pierce to 30, maybe up their difficulty to 4 and nerf their speed to 88 after this, but they should definitely have 5 ammo.
I repeat, besides Javs nothing should be changed with throwing.
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You want to know my thoughts on throwing? Nerf its speed. Right now throwers are the machine guns of the medieval age. The problem with this is it is so easy to hit a guy, stun him, turn around, jump/spin/throw, stun him, turn around... rinse + repeat until he is dead. Since you get stunned by hits (as you should) there is no way to catch a thrower, unless you have 8+ athletics and light armor... then of course one hit form him and you are flat out dead.
Also, have you ever tried fighting a thrower as an archer? The archer has barely any range advantage* and yet shots at least twice as slow as the thrower. If its a duel between the two the archer has to strafe left and right twice as often as the thrower, messing up his accuracy severely. Couple this with the fact that the thrower does more damage and gg.
Also nerf throwers camping the tops of ladders in siege.
Once something is done about throwing speed, then we may discuss how to buff/nerf their damage output and accuracy. But if you really wanna know what I think about accuracy... nerf their headshot aimbotting accuracy. :D
*I realize that archers are far more viable for camping a tower in siege or something, but if you had a medium-ranged battle, a thrower would best an archer any day of the week. Even a medium-long range battle.
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I personally think throwing weapons do too much damage. They seem to always do more damage than me getting hit with a melee weapon (which seems wrong, swinging a weapon with your full bodies inertia behind it is going to do more damage than throwing a weapon through the air). I understand they did this because you can swing a weapon and never lose it, but throwing weapons are not infinite (unless you pick them up off the ground).
I never thought a pure throwing build should be something that is a pure class, I always thought it should be more of a hybrid class to soften up the enemies before getting into a melee. But I know this is an unpopular opinion.
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Knowing Tydeus, he will probably just buff the stab on throwing weapons now.
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I haven't been playing nearly as much NA1 as I used to because of the recent trend of Jarid/Throwing Lance trend. Now, when there's a huge clusterfucks of these throwers, it will naturally seem a bit wonky, but I honestly believe the Jarid pierce damage combined with its missile speed is a bit OP.
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A kiting thrower is a very aggravating experience. That's pretty much it from me..
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The only suggestion I have is to add knockdown to throwing hammers. I want to see a hammer hurled 20 yards into someone's back for a knockdown while they're running from three bloodthirsty str builds.
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The only suggestion I have is to add knockdown to throwing hammers. I want to see a hammer hurled 20 yards into someone's back for a knockdown while they're running from three bloodthirsty str builds.
Sadly already confirmed as not possible by some dev I can't remember.
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It is possible with a workaround, i.e. outside of the normal knockdown mechanic and with a custom on_hit trigger handling.
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I'm not even sure it would be beneficial. I think you'd be able to get up and move a little before the thrower could throw again.
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Also nerf throwers camping the tops of ladders in siege.
Hey now, this is my raison d'etre. Attackers already win 80%+ of the time on NA2, <60 seconds of shooting fish in a barrel at the start of the round is the only redeeming part of getting stuck on D.
On topic, it really comes down to damage per stack. Jarids and spears (and war darts, actually) have it, but axes/javs/etc don't. All of the throwing weapons above knives/stars should do about the same damage per stack to someone in medium armor, and people would use them all. Jarids do almost twice as much damage per stack as any of the axes, so the axes don't get used.
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It is possible with a workaround, i.e. outside of the normal knockdown mechanic and with a custom on_hit trigger handling.
<3
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I don't really understand the fascination with a potential ranged knockdown on hammers. Yeah, it would be hilarious from a troll/derp/whatever standpoint, but in terms of actual battlefield efficacy, there isn't much point.
The stagger from hitting someone with a projectile is nearly as long as knockdown, so just hitting someone with any throwing weapon allows your teammates to get a free hit. Knockdown is slightly better, but it's still not enough to make hammers viable (since their damage per stack is still roughly half of Jarids).
Now if we were talking a ranged knockback mechanic (like shield shove and polearm overhead nudge), then we've got something. Knocking people off walls/ladders at range would be extremely effective on siege, and would give throwing hammers a powerful niche.
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You don't get the idea. It is for fun, not for taking an advantage!
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As a guy who has faced throwers in full +3 Plate armour (70-75 body armour, 50+ head) for a couple years, I've got some thoughts on throwing:
- Just so you throwers know, your cut-damage projectiles do jack shit to me. I don't even bother to dodge them sometimes.
- Stop using war darts. They make this funny "whoosh" sound when you hit me for zero damage, and I rarely get staggered.
- Jarids hurt like a motherfucker compared to everything else but lances. It still takes sometimes four body or two headshots to kill me, but that feels like a quick death with all my armour.
- Throwing lances are a no-go for me. Not only can they two-hit kill me, but the stabs also hurt in melee quite a bit. My only goal against lances is to soak them so some better fighter with less armour on my team can go win us a multi.
Evaluate this feedback as you will. Overall, as a regular target for projectiles, I think throwing is balanced as a complete counter to my class (since archery doesn't hurt and crossbows are too slow).
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Evaluate this feedback as you will. Overall, as a regular target for projectiles, I think throwing is balanced as a complete counter to my class (since archery doesn't hurt and crossbows are too slow).
I try to save my Jarids for str 2h in heavy armor that block everything and hiltslash/lolstab their way through multiple allies at a time. Pierce projectiles are about the only thing that can bring them down. Engaging them in melee usually results in me glancing or getting kicked then one-shot.
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I try to save my Jarids for str 2h in heavy armor that block everything and hiltslash/lolstab their way through multiple allies at a time. Pierce projectiles are about the only thing that can bring them down. Engaging them in melee usually results in me glancing or getting kicked then one-shot.
That is throwing's niche, I think. It lacks the constant ranged pressure of archery or precise damage of the crossbows, but for "that guy needs to die RIGHT NOW" it's a go-to class. In this aspect is is balanced well currently. Hero-hunting can completely change the outcome of an engagement.
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I like staggering plate with stones.