cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: San on October 05, 2013, 04:58:27 pm

Title: Spathovaklion
Post by: San on October 05, 2013, 04:58:27 pm
I really like the stats on this weapon, but I feel it overshadows too many other blunt 1hs.

weapon length: 75
weight: 2
difficulty: 13
speed rating: 99
weapon length: 75
thrust damage: 0 pierce
swing damage: 27 blunt
slots: 1
Knockdown

If you nerf its speed, it will just be a slightly better winged mace. Nerf its damage and it'll just be a slightly better flanged mace.

Here's my proposal: nerf knockdown by reducing its weight to ~0.7 or another miniscule value at +0. In an extreme case, maybe even remove knockdown.

Why?
Current knockdown chance at +3 (2.5 weight) is ~12%, as good/better than most other blunt 1hs and half as good as the heaviest blunt 2h/polearm. The high weight+speed also allows you to stun+spam lighter weapons. At 0.7, it's 3.5% and at 1.2 it's 6%. Lower weight also helps it get block stunned more often, a peculiarity among blunt weapons. If the +0.5 weight at +3 could be removed, a simple weight of 1 would be perfect.

It looks pretty thin, and with less knockdown it acquires a perfect niche: Fast blunt damage with decent reach. I would like to compare it to the military sickle, which gets +1 speed and -1 damage and a secondary mode. I think nerfing stats would do it injustice. Some might not like this, but I don't think people chose this weapon to crutch on knockdown (they would choose warhammer).

Credit to Phew, since I believe he had this idea a long while ago.
Title: Re: Spathovaklion
Post by: Ronin on October 06, 2013, 12:42:09 pm
I'd say 1.0-1.3 weight is enough. Otherwise, the weapon itself would get stunned way too many often. One should consider that, other 1handed swords have 1.5-1.8 weight.
Title: Re: Spathovaklion
Post by: Erzengel on October 06, 2013, 03:47:37 pm
First time I have to disagree with you san.

You know that 1.3 weight almost never gives you a knockdown? A Winged Mace with 1.7 weight (unloomed) already stuns very rarely.  Your proposal would make the weapon completly useless. Not even talking about removing knockdown from one handed blunt weapons. I am sorry, but that's just ridiculous.

There is almost no weapon that gets stunned by the Spathovaklion. Only one handed weapons which are used without a shield and which have less than 1.3 weight are affected by this. I guess this is quite neglectable since the weight of most mid/high tier one handed weapons was increased to 1.4+.

There is a good reason why Spathovaklion is slightly better (well, it always depends on your build) than most other one handed blunt weapons: it is much more expensive (nearly twice as much upkeep as the Winged Mace for example, which has -5  lenght, -0.3 weight, -1 speed and the same damage). It would also be unrealistic to reduce the weight compared to other maces since Spathovaklion is almost completly made out of metal.

Internal one handed blunt balance is fine. No reason to fuck around with it.  :wink:

12% stun chance isn't that high if you take into account that you still need 5+ hits to kill an enemy with high strength and armour. Your enemy can also use the barrel roll to avoid getting hit again.

I usually always enjoy your ideas, but you are completly wrong this time.
Title: Re: Spathovaklion
Post by: Gurnisson on October 06, 2013, 04:09:53 pm
Internal one handed blunt balance is fine. No reason to fuck around with it.  :wink:

The internal mace balance was good before Spathovaklion was added. Not anymore.
Title: Re: Spathovaklion
Post by: Erzengel on October 06, 2013, 04:15:10 pm
The internal mace balance was good before Spathovaklion was added. Not anymore.

Yes, it is probably the best mace, but it isn't that much better than the rest if you take the upkeep into account. No need to nerf it to the ground.
Title: Re: Spathovaklion
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on October 06, 2013, 04:17:52 pm
Yes, it is probably the best mace, but it isn't that much better than the rest if you take the upkeep into account. No need to nerf it into the ground.
Coming from a guy who loses more than I win on a 5x, upkeep is useless in prohibiting anything and barely a pain in the ass, and there still exists no upkeep exploits.
Title: Re: Spathovaklion
Post by: Erzengel on October 06, 2013, 04:24:14 pm
Coming from a guy who loses more than I win on a 5x, upkeep is useless in prohibiting anything and barely a pain in the ass, and there still exists no upkeep exploits.

Well, why not make Practice dagger on par with Paramerion then? :P Or One Handed War Axe with Broad One Handed Battle Axe (to have a more realistic example  :wink:)? The most expensive items should always be slightly better than the cheaper ones.

Not 100% sure if I really understand what you are saying, but I am usually not using very expensive gear. My current equipment set has a maximum upkeep of 2,6k (which is quite much for me).
Title: Re: Spathovaklion
Post by: MURDERTRON on October 06, 2013, 06:59:07 pm
1h stab is so OP that this is the first time anyone has complained about the Spathovaklion in two months.
Title: Re: Spathovaklion
Post by: San on October 06, 2013, 07:42:28 pm
It's not really complaining, just an obvious adjustment. It's like if the devs released an elite elite scimitar with +1 cut more than the elite scimitar. It's still probably fine, but then it just completely negates the elite scimitar. Something like that. I was trying to imply earlier that nerfing speed or blunt actually makes it too weak, since it'll be too similar to weapons that are 5k cheaper.
Title: Re: Spathovaklion
Post by: protox2k on October 06, 2013, 07:51:30 pm
HI SAN and everyone else good afternoon :D.

Well lets get started on this OP weapon......
I highly suggest that this weapon is taken off altogether from the shop!
Like someone posted up above^^^^^^^^ I agree that the mace balance was way better before the Spathovaklion was added.
The least they need to do is at least raise up the price because 578 repair isn't high enough for such an OP weapon.
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Title: Re: Spathovaklion
Post by: Erzengel on October 06, 2013, 08:10:52 pm
It's not really complaining, just an obvious adjustment. It's like if the devs released an elite elite scimitar with +1 cut more than the elite scimitar. It's still probably fine, but then it just completely negates the elite scimitar. Something like that. I was trying to imply earlier that nerfing speed or blunt actually makes it too weak, since it'll be too similar to weapons that are 5k cheaper.

Reducing the speed by 1 for example isn't a big deal. I am ok with such a change, but reducing the weight by 0.7 would just make it plain useless.
Title: Re: Spathovaklion
Post by: Falka on October 06, 2013, 08:14:25 pm
There is a good reason why Spathovaklion is slightly better (well, it always depends on your build) than most other one handed blunt weapons: it is much more expensive (nearly twice as much upkeep as the Winged Mace for example, which has -5  lenght, -0.3 weight, -1 speed and the same damage).

Bullshit argument. For someone with 20+ mw items upkeep doesn't matter at all. And it's not "slightly" better, it's much better. Not to mention it looks like kids toy, not like weapon.
Title: Re: Spathovaklion
Post by: Necrorave on October 06, 2013, 08:18:38 pm
In all honesty.  I agree with both sides of this argument.

Although, how about we do some kind of compensation of the two?

Lower the weight a bit but add some damage to the weapon.  The speed is silly as it is but if you lower the weight it might make more sense.

I am thinking of maybe 1.5 weight and perhaps +1 to the current damage would even the weapon out to be a more "Damaging mace" but not the most effective at knocking down.

I feel it would still make it worth the value for the speed and damage, but it does lack a bit in knockdown still.

Just an idea.
Title: Re: Spathovaklion
Post by: Erzengel on October 06, 2013, 08:35:47 pm
Bullshit argument. For someone with 20+ mw items upkeep doesn't matter at all. And it's not "slightly" better, it's much better. Not to mention it looks like kids toy, not like weapon.

So we balance items only for the few players with 20+ +3 items? It is only slightly better compared to the two other blunt weapons in the same price category (Military Hammer and Warhammer). Military Hammer has +5 length, +0.3 weight, -5 speed, +1 damage, (secondary mode) and costs 1,8k less. Warhammer has -10 lenght, +0.5 weight, -2 speed, +4 damage, (secondary mode) and a stab at a 1,6k higher price. Now tell me how Spathovaklion is far superior compared to them.  :rolleyes: And don't compare it to items which cost only the half of it or even less, that's a "bullshit argument"... Why don't I see you complaining about a Light One Handed Battle Axe having worse stats than a Broad One Handed Battle Axe for example?
Title: Re: Spathovaklion
Post by: rustyspoon on October 06, 2013, 09:51:41 pm
My only problem with the Spathovaklion is it's so much harder to see than the other blunt 1h's. Fix that and I'd be a happy puppy.
Title: Re: Spathovaklion
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on October 06, 2013, 11:00:45 pm
Well, why not make Practice dagger on par with Paramerion then? :P Or One Handed War Axe with Broad One Handed Battle Axe (to have a more realistic example  :wink:)? The most expensive items should always be slightly better than the cheaper ones.

Not 100% sure if I really understand what you are saying, but I am usually not using very expensive gear. My current equipment set has a maximum upkeep of 2,6k (which is quite much for me).
i was referring to me when I stated I lose gold on a 5x on my main, I also fully support making all gear (including practice daggers) equally viable. But really, when all getting around upkeep requires is some basic knowledge of how the game works, why make more expensive gear better (ignore strat)?
Title: Re: Spathovaklion
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on October 07, 2013, 04:44:59 pm
IMO it's the best 1h blunt weapon for the money.  Makes it a pretty obvious choice...but I like the war hammer and military hammer as well, both awesome weapons (I'd still prefer a spathovaklion for how much it costs compared to how it performs)
Title: Re: Spathovaklion
Post by: Phew on October 08, 2013, 06:44:18 pm
My only problem with the Spathovaklion is it's so much harder to see than the other blunt 1h's. Fix that and I'd be a happy puppy.

Rusty, you should use Final Boss' texture pack, it makes it bright silver and easy to see. Also makes your Military Hammer look like some kind of native american totem, but such is the price.

And yes, the Spathovaklion makes all other blunt 1-handers obsolete (except maybe warhammer), and San's suggestion is right on; reduce the weight to like 1.4 kg, and it would have a decent niche as a faster blunt weapon with lower knockdown chance. Right now, it totally outclasses the Winged Mace, which was perfectly balanced with the other blunt 1h before the Spathovaklion was added.

1h internal balance needs a little work; every weapon above the "Sword" should have a niche (i.e. not be totally outclassed by another weapon in every stat). This is mostly true right now, with a few exceptions:
-Arming Sword is totally outclassed by Italian and Side Sword (I suggest +1cut or +2cut/-2pierce)
-Arabian Arming Sword is garbage (I suggest +1 speed at the very least)
-Long Arming Sword is totally outclassed by Knightly Arming Sword (I suggest +1 speed)
-Side Sword is too good (I suggest -1 cut)
-Spathovaklion should have its weight reduced to <1.5kg and probably lose 1 speed (so it's not faster than the picks)
-Give every 1h sword +3 cut +2 pierce at Masterwork (some unfairly get +3c/+3p right now)
Title: Re: Spathovaklion
Post by: Falka on October 08, 2013, 06:48:02 pm
-Give every 1h sword +3 cut +2 pierce at Masterwork (some unfairly get +3c/+3p right now)

If you want to make a few swords unique - which I like! - give them +2 cut and +3 pierce :P
Title: Re: Spathovaklion
Post by: Phew on October 08, 2013, 07:17:08 pm
If you want to make a few swords unique - which I like! - give them +2 cut and +3 pierce :P

Sure, but there are at least two weapons with the same pierce and cut damage (Side Sword and Short Arming), so how do you decide which ones get which bonus?

Every 2h sword gets +3c/+2p, even the Greatsword and German, which are clearly stab-centric. This is relevant because 1h thrust is now on par with 2h thrust, so 1h stat balance needs to adopt the same philosphy as 2h. Previously, thrust damage wasn't given much weight in 1h sword balance, because 1h thrust was a nearly guaranteed glancedeath.
Title: Re: Spathovaklion
Post by: Jona on October 08, 2013, 08:13:52 pm
Sure, but there are at least two weapons with the same pierce and cut damage (Side Sword and Short Arming), so how do you decide which ones get which bonus?

Every 2h sword gets +3c/+2p, even the Greatsword and German, which are clearly stab-centric. This is relevant because 1h thrust is now on par with 2h thrust, so 1h stat balance needs to adopt the same philosphy as 2h. Previously, thrust damage wasn't given much weight in 1h sword balance, because 1h thrust was a nearly guaranteed glancedeath.

On par? ON PAR?!?!?!?

You saw yourself wrecking me yesterday... 2hand stab I can at least block.. 1h stab is just instant. "Oh shit, he's pulling back for a... yep, I'm now dead." - Me everytime I faced off against you.

Granted, 2h stab is just as messed up, but in it's own way. In all honesty I have far less problems blocking 2h stab than I do the 1h. While 2h stab can 180 degree stab people, has super-stretchy-elastic-arm-reach, and can pointblank stab (if you stab past someone and swing it around / wiggle it)... 1h now has all of those, plus instahitting capabilites. It is essentially the marriage between all the broken things from polearm and 2h stabs in one, super OP maneuver.


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Title: Re: Spathovaklion
Post by: Phew on October 08, 2013, 08:34:51 pm
On par? ON PAR?!?!?!?
Granted, 2h stab is just as messed up, but in it's own way. In all honesty I have far less problems blocking 2h stab than I do the 1h.

2h stab has been around for years, and people have learned its absurd capabilities and can (somewhat) predict its behavior. The 1h thrust is still "new", and people are still learning how to predict/counter it. It still has shortcomings (for instance hugging the 1h user's sword arm still puts them unable to land a thrust without wrist-destroying histrionics).

Tydeus has some posts with more detail on the actual animations, but he did mention that 2h still has an instant "ready" animation, whereas the new 1h still has a finite "ready" animation, so 1h thrust may be faster than it was, but it's not as "instant" as 2h. I don't like the fact that the thrust stays active for so long (my biggest complaint about 2h thrust as well), just because it looks stupid. But the "speed" of the animation seems balanced between 1h/2h/pole now, which is good. 1h weapons just have inflated thrust damage values compared to 2h, thanks to years of a neglected thrust animation that was utter crap, but myself and others have posted lots of suggestions on how to tone down the stats on some of the 1-handers with inflated stats ::cough:: side sword ::cough::

I switched to a 120Hz display with Lightboost (eliminating motion blur), and I've noticed that I can discern animations sooner than I did before with a slow 60Hz display. FWIW, I still recognize 1h thrusts more quickly than 2h thrusts, probably because I play 1h and have never played 2h. So in summary, play your 1h character more Jona ;-)
Title: Re: Spathovaklion
Post by: Jona on October 08, 2013, 08:43:05 pm
2h stab has been around for years, and people have learned its absurd capabilities and can (somewhat) predict its behavior. The 1h thrust is still "new", and people are still learning how to predict/counter it. It still has shortcomings (for instance hugging the 1h user's sword arm still puts them unable to land a thrust without wrist-destroying histrionics).

Tydeus has some posts with more detail on the actual animations, but he did mention that 2h still has an instant "ready" animation, whereas the new 1h still has a finite "ready" animation, so 1h thrust may be faster than it was, but it's not as "instant" as 2h. I don't like the fact that the thrust stays active for so long (my biggest complaint about 2h thrust as well), just because it looks stupid. But the "speed" of the animation seems balanced between 1h/2h/pole now, which is good. 1h weapons just have inflated thrust damage values compared to 2h, thanks to years of a neglected thrust animation that was utter crap, but myself and others have posted lots of suggestions on how to tone down the stats on some of the 1-handers with inflated stats ::cough:: side sword ::cough::

I switched to a 120Hz display with Lightboost (eliminating motion blur), and I've noticed that I can discern animations sooner than I did before with a slow 60Hz display. FWIW, I still recognize 1h thrusts more quickly than 2h thrusts, probably because I play 1h and have never played 2h. So in summary, play your 1h character more Jona ;-)

I shall never go back to 1h while it remains OP!


Oh wait... I DID just go 2h for one last gen of shits n giggles... maybe it is time to retire my shielder and be a swashbuckling hero :)
Title: Re: Spathovaklion
Post by: Phew on October 08, 2013, 08:50:56 pm
I shall never go back to 1h while it remains OP!


Oh wait... I DID just go 2h for one last gen of shits n giggles... maybe it is time to retire my shielder and be a swashbuckling hero :)

Copy King_Chris' longsword stylings (strength+lotsa armor+kick and/or hiltslash every single attack), and you won't ever want to play another build. That guy wrecks me like no one else in this game.
Title: Re: Spathovaklion
Post by: Jona on October 08, 2013, 09:35:12 pm
Copy King_Chris' longsword stylings (strength+lotsa armor+kick and/or hiltslash every single attack), and you won't ever want to play another build. That guy wrecks me like no one else in this game.

str - too OP for me

lotsa armor - too OP for me (jk.. too heavy for me)

kick/and/or hiltslash - too OP for me

I tend to stay away from OP builds... except for the fact that I am using a 2h and that alone wrecks everything and everyone. Seriously, I was in battle last night... everyone in my TS and I was laughing so hard after I just swung left/right over and over and killed 4-5 guys (they were plenty skilled, and not peasants) within a matter of seconds. It's literally disgusting how more people can't see how easy 2h is. Not to mention when I applied myself on the duel server before a strat battle (saw you in there I think) I was going undefeated save for one conflict where I lagged miserably right off the bat... then I dueled that person twice more and it was a shut out both times.  I am having so much fun, while having no fun at all. It is the kind of fun that comes from when you play GTA with godmode on... I miss the 'challenge' kind of fun though... can't wait to retire... bored already. (Not to mention I feel real bad for everyone I kill... my fun comes at the cost of everyone else's).


Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut.... 1h stab can still instahit me and just flat out wreck me regardless of what weapon I use. Granted, I now have my own OP stab to counter it, unlike the long axe stab (buff pls). I don't know... maybe my internet or my computer is just shit, but I swear I don't see even the slightest bit of 1h stab animation before I get hit. Not saying it never happens with 2h or polearms... those are wonky at times as well, but it occurs 98% of the time with 1h stab, about 40% of the time with 2h and exactly 8.76982341% of the time with poles, with most accounts being from the infamous war spear stab.

P.S. not a fan of your new profile pic... your body is twisted too much :P
Title: Re: Spathovaklion
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on October 08, 2013, 09:38:55 pm
If you're getting insta-stabbed by 1h's you're doing something wrong.  You're letting them get too close, and not kicking them before they get that close.
Title: Re: Spathovaklion
Post by: Jona on October 08, 2013, 09:50:34 pm
If you're getting insta-stabbed by 1h's you're doing something wrong.  You're letting them get too close, and not kicking them before they get that close.

You and I both agree that kicking is dumb and OP. I don't like being kicked... I don't kick others.

Not to mention that the only other way to stay away from them is to S key hero... which I also stay away from doing. And even then, S key is far slower than them W keying.

As I said, it may just be an issue with my computer or connection, but as of now it is seriously a gamebreaking issue for me... I only ever successfully block an un-held 1h stab if I predict it. So pretty much any time a 1hander turns his back to me I block down, which is real annoying when he is trying to run/kite and I can no longer move fast enough to catch up. Or if I decide to risk it and charge him, he 180 stabs me. Just so annoying how nowadays almost every class is as gay as the next, and the whole game is just becoming unplayable.  The only untainted classes left are archers, cav, and (some) polearms. As "gay" as archers and cav have always been, they at least are in no way impossible to defeat.

At fifteen, I had the will to  learn ; at thirty, I could stand ; at forty, I had no  doubts ; at fifty, I understood the heavenly Bidding ;  at sixty, my ears were opened ; at seventy, I could  do as my heart lusted without trespassing from the  square..
Title: Re: Spathovaklion
Post by: Phew on October 08, 2013, 09:55:13 pm
If you're getting insta-stabbed by 1h's you're doing something wrong.  You're letting them get too close, and not kicking them before they get that close.

Jona and Elindor are the best players that don't abuse any of this game's broken mechanics. When they kill you, you can't rage about anything other than getting outplayed. Although I've gotten so used to spending every fight getting kicked/nudged/lolstabbed/hiltslashed/knocked down that a straight up "fair" fight messes with my head so much I don't know what to do and I always screw up.

Quote
not a fan of your new profile pic... your body is twisted too much
Yeah, I was looking for an angle that showed all of the Final Boss loom textures (axe+scabbard+jarid) and the heraldic shield. The only angle that achieves that results in the torso of a Barbie doll. I'll give it another go.

Call me vain, but I select my gear based on Final Boss' textures rather than stats (which is how I ended up with the gimped Arming Sword).
Title: Re: Spathovaklion
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on October 08, 2013, 10:05:37 pm
That scabbard is for axe?!

And I think kick is broken in it's current implementation, but a kick is a kick if you still do it right.  I think the non-area of effect kick was not OP or abusing mechanics.  I still don't think it's abusing mechanics to use it in it's current state, kicking is important for 2h/polearm users (IMO).  Just wish devs would change it, can't fault players for still wanting to kick (not even necessarily to take advantage of the better kick perks). 

But we're going off topic here...

SPATHOVAKLION.  I agree that it's a not really balanced with other picks/maces.
Title: Re: Spathovaklion
Post by: Phew on October 08, 2013, 10:07:41 pm
That scabbard is for axe?!

And I think kick is broken in it's current implementation, but a kick is a kick if you still do it right.  I think the non-area of effect kick was not OP or abusing mechanics.  I still don't think it's abusing mechanics to use it in it's current state, kicking is important for 2h/polearm users (IMO).  Just wish devs would change it, can't fault players for still wanting to kick (not even necessarily take advantage of the better kick perks).

No, scabbard is for +3 Arming Sword. Would be pretty sweet if axes had scabbards though.
Title: Re: Spathovaklion
Post by: Jona on October 08, 2013, 10:10:09 pm
Yeah, I was looking for an angle that showed all of the Final Boss loom textures (axe+scabbard+jarid) and the heraldic shield. The only angle that achieves that results in the torso of a Barbie doll. I'll give it another go.

Call me vain, but I select my gear based on Final Boss' textures rather than stats (which is how I ended up with the gimped Arming Sword).

Haha.. I too select my gear based on looks alone. Granted, an axe is an axe as far as I am concerned, looks were the original reason I was drawn to the ever-hated longsword. It's just so attractive. Also all of my loomed armor I chose because form>function. For my peasant attire I even go without a helm because none match well... although I get oneshot to the face all the time.. oh well... still have far more fun being sexy. xD


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Title: Re: Spathovaklion
Post by: San on October 08, 2013, 10:14:45 pm
Skeying is the worst thing you can do against 1h stab. Just facehug and move to their right side (you strafe left into them) and if you have good athletics, they'll glance. If there's a bit of distance, just block. I get them to glance all the time. Adjustments are needed, though, which is why I made that other thread.

Spathovaklion was imo useless when it was first released, since it was just a poor man's iberian mace. At first when making this thread, I was going to say to remove knockdown, but I think reducing weight is more fair and you move slightly faster, too, at the cost of susceptibility to getting weapon stunned.
Title: Re: Spathovaklion
Post by: Jona on October 08, 2013, 11:13:00 pm
Skeying is the worst thing you can do against 1h stab. Just facehug and move to their right side (you strafe left into them) and if you have good athletics, they'll glance. If there's a bit of distance, just block. I get them to glance all the time. Adjustments are needed, though, which is why I made that other thread.

Spathovaklion was imo useless when it was first released, since it was just a poor man's iberian mace. At first when making this thread, I was going to say to remove knockdown, but I think reducing weight is more fair and you move slightly faster, too, at the cost of susceptibility to getting weapon stunned.

Well, when you can't see a stab coming... its hard to prepare. Sure I could facehug and stay to his right the entire time... but I have high athletics so I am all over the place.

Back to the spathovaklion... I think that it should definitely get a huge weight reduction... its so small and flimsy that thing should bend and snap after only a few solid strikes. It only makes sense that it could easily get stunned in place of flat out breaking. Not to mention a weight reduction is also a nerf to knockdown, and the less knockdown in this game the better.