cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Teeth on October 04, 2013, 08:49:35 pm
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Pick any random two-directional stab focused polearm and start stabbing. Unless you are terrible you will quickly find out that the stabs are extremely quick and extremely long. Now of course the same could be said about 1h stabs and perhaps even 2h stabs, so I am willing to say that all stabs are OP. The thing is that these weapons are extremely good at stabbing which makes these weapons the most OP weapon on the server.
Most shining example is the awlpike, which is now effective to the utter tip of its reach, which is incredibly hard to spot. People will continously underestimate your reach and usually die. It goes for Ranseur and the bulk as well though. Easily the best battle weapons at the moment.
Stabs need more tweaking as in its current state I expect the entire server to go lawlpike or something similar.
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I second Teeth on this one, ghostreach and stabs are the cancer of this mod..
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obligatory hiltslash rant post.
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it is quiet surprising that you complain about polearms teeth as you abuse them to max by yourself :D but if polearms get nerfed somehow than something should be done with that insane 1 h stab which is worse than 2 h lolstab, atleast in my opinion.
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I've always treated the awlpike series' stabs like Gungnir, so I've managed. The mix of the overheads and stabs that can both hit quickly make them formidable. I would agree that they're some of the best weapons in battle, but I don't think they're OP or in need of a stats adjustment. A group of stab weapons have always been able to wreck in melee.
I agree that all stabs need to be tweaked with more clearly defined inactive regions instead of the instastab and late stab we have now (especially with high base damage). I don't find any particular stab that dominating over another outside of weapon stats, so I feel it's maintaining a strange balance right now since there's always a chance of getting outstabbed.
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i dont mind what they are, it pisses me off how they are used.
it is practically: backpedal and spam stab untill someone misses their slash and then one shot him.
there are very few cases of pussy-play like this one.
EDIT: down-vote me more you awlpike scrubs, it doesnt change nothing.
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it is quiet surprising that you complain about polearms teeth as you abuse them to max by yourself :D but if polearms get nerfed somehow than something should be done with that insane 1 h stab which is worse than 2 h lolstab, atleast in my opinion.
it is not as bad as people make it out, yeah it is powerful, but you will still glance a lot at point blank, and the glance stun leaves a lot to be desired.
at least 40% of all my deaths come from glanced stab.
edit: shit, double posted. sorry.
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it is quiet surprising that you complain about polearms teeth as you abuse them to max by yourself :D but if polearms get nerfed somehow than something should be done with that insane 1 h stab which is worse than 2 h lolstab, atleast in my opinion.
Aww come on, I always whine about the OP ness of my class when I play something OP.
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Aww come on, I always whine about the OP ness of my class when I play something OP.
it is actually kinda cool that you have balls to admit you are using and abusing something overpowered, and you say that it should be fixed.
respect.
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Pick any random two-directional stab focused polearm and start stabbing. Unless you are terrible you will quickly find out that the stabs are extremely quick and extremely long. Now of course the same could be said about 1h stabs and perhaps even 2h stabs, so I am willing to say that all stabs are OP. The thing is that these weapons are extremely good at stabbing which makes these weapons the most OP weapon on the server.
Most shining example is the awlpike, which is now effective to the utter tip of its reach, which is incredibly hard to spot. People will continously underestimate your reach and usually die. It goes for Ranseur and the bulk as well though. Easily the best battle weapons at the moment.
Stabs need more tweaking as in its current state I expect the entire server to go lawlpike or something similar.
You have my respect back piker, I agree with that
but what we can do when NA balance EU
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I've always treated the awlpike series' stabs like Gungnir, so I've managed.
THIS.
Awlpikes have always been this way, you just need to keep in mind that the pointy end is dangerous and that you should BLOCK DOWN.
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Long Spear and Pike is better than 2d polearms though. I've played with pike, long spear, ranseur, spetum, long awlpike, awlpike, ashwood pike, english bill, battle fork, military fork and swiss halberd. The reach of the 1d polearms is better than the speed and the added attacking direction of 2d polearms. Damage is similar with the added speed bonus for slow weapons.
By the way, playing with a mw german greatsword feel like a slightly weaker long awlpike on the stab with much better overhead and two great side swings. :wink:
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I agree with Teeth, especially Awlpikes are totally retarded. By far the most broken weapon in the game at the moment. They deal huge damage, have a good range and are just insanely fast. Combine this with kick spamming and enjoy the easy mode...
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I'm sure I'd have a lot more to say about the awlpike if it was a more popular weapon. I just don't see it that often, but when I do, I agree that it is a bit silly; especially with these crazy mega-kicks. Maybe it should be made purely one-directional?
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Whats this insane speed everyones talking about? The awlpike being the fastest of infamous stabby polearms is on par with a GLA speed wise which I wouldn't exactly call fast. mediocore at best if anything.
What really nets you kills with an awlpike is the misperception of its actual range. That's really the only thing that needs to be adressed in some way.
As for the kicks--->you can dodge those.
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I agree with Teeth, especially Awlpikes are totally retarded. By far the most broken weapon in the game at the moment. They deal huge damage, have a good range and are just insanely fast. Combine this with kick spamming and enjoy the easy mode...
good range? no, not really. awl/ash were always outranged by 2h..
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Its easy to say something is easy when its all you do. If you spend 90% of your time stabbing guys with poles you will get very good at it, doesn't mean its necessarily OP compared to something else you might train yourself to use.
If you get 2 directions they bloody well should be good stabbing weapons, the best in the game even
How many random polearm players actually pick up 2D poles and rape with them, compared to say 1 hand, 2 hand, ranged etc?
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+1 Always thought the awlpike and similar weapons were OP. Insane damage with great speed gained from the pole-thrust and hard to see. Not to mention the pole overhead got a speed buff recently as well. You don't need 4-d when you can wiggle that thrust, kickslash and zoom around switching targets for fast kills.
Now of course the same could be said about 1h stabs and perhaps even 2h stabs, so I am willing to say that all stabs are OP. The thing is that these weapons are extremely good at stabbing which makes these weapons the most OP weapon on the server.
QFT!
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This thread needs knitler saying the awlpike is OP as fuck.
By the way, it really is.
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a guy using the weapon is most qualified in saying it is op, id consider teeth an expert in penis
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Opness sorry
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hello i am no rules, I usually play with a long awlpike
I am not sure if you guys were talking about my weapon too, but I personally think the long awlpike is very strong indeed. Yet I wouldn't say it is as OP as ashwood pike+shield.
I also often feel like I even underestimate the awlpikes reach and let me get outstabbed by an awlpike while I am holding the longer version in my hands. But ofcourse, this might be because even if I like playing this class, I am not the best at it.
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Long Spear and Pike is better than 2d polearms though.
Pfft, when did you ever play pike since last patch? Two-directional weapons have much higher stab speed and much more consistent damage output and are therefore way easier at racking up kills in a group fight. Not saying pike or longspear are bad by any means, but especially when considering an average player, he is going to have a much easier time doing well with a two-directional than with a pike or longspear. Also your ability to fight alone is much, much higher with a two-directional and movement speed gets not nearly raped as hard by two-directionals as a pike.
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Pfft, when did you ever play pike since last patch?
I used Long Spear and Pike in all strat battles until recently when I changed my strat character to 1h cav.
Two-directional weapons have much higher stab speed and much more consistent damage output and are therefore way easier at racking up kills in a group fight. Not saying pike or longspear are bad by any means, but especially when considering an average player, he is going to have a much easier time doing well with a two-directional than with a pike or longspear.
Yes, I agree, 1d polearms are worse for new players. However, players good at using pike or long spear can carry the whole team in mass melee. Stabbing around and over your teammates in a mass melee is a lot better than being a hard hitter closer, at least that's what I think.
Also your ability to fight alone is much, much higher with a two-directional and movement speed gets not nearly raped as hard by two-directionals as a pike.
True, but people underestimate the pike and long spear. Jump, spin and stab to the head was a move I practiced back when no one else on eu used the pike, and even after a bunch of turn rate nerfs, you'll still kill a lot with such a simple move. Sky-stabs is also very useful up close, particularly with the long spear.
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Strat =/= EU 1
Of course pikes and longspears are better in Strat battles because people respawn, which causes you to always play in the best situation for using a longspear or pike. Two big opposing squads duking it out, which allows you to sit back and wreck shit continously. Pike is my weapon of choice as well in any Strat field battle. On EU 1 this best situation lasts about 30 seconds which allows you to wreck for a very short while and EU 1 has a shit ton of situations where your pike makes you fairly dead meat. One of them being a very slow moving ranged target and the other one being ganks.
Don't think the game is balanced by Strat.
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True, strat and eu 1 is not the same. That's why I think long spear is the very best of them all. Good enough for 1v1, fast enough and good for curving stabs. Pike and 2d polearms are both more situational.
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Strat =/= EU 1
Of course pikes and longspears are better in Strat battles because people respawn, which causes you to always play in the best situation for using a longspear or pike. Two big opposing squads duking it out, which allows you to sit back and wreck shit continously. Pike is my weapon of choice as well in any Strat field battle. On EU 1 this best situation lasts about 30 seconds which allows you to wreck for a very short while and EU 1 has a shit ton of situations where your pike makes you fairly dead meat. One of them being a very slow moving ranged target and the other one being ganks.
Don't think the game is balanced by Strat.
we have to force Tydeus to join some open field battle with knitler hebai and others alwpike heroes and show him how stupidly broken that weapon is
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I think about two weeks ago, I GTX crpg for the first time ever. The reason was Teeth's band of awlpikers who always stuck together. For 3 to 4 rounds consecutively, I put up with the bulshittiness of the awlpike gang but I guess I snapped at some point and didn't return for the rest of the day.
Still, as he points out himself, Teeth has the balls to criticize the weapon he himself abuses. Also as he said, all damn stabs are so freaking broken. I think they have to be revised (sounds cooler than "nerfed"). Additionally, turn rate nerf has to come back. Because high turn rate is currently the best friend of a stab abuser ::cough.stabdraging::
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we have to force Tydeus to join some open field battle with knitler hebai and others alwpike heroes and show him how stupidly broken that weapon is
Let´s take the best group of players that use a weapon, and use them to prove how OP the weapon is for average players...
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Let´s take the best group of players that use a weapon, and use them to prove how OP the weapon is for average players...
you can't ignore fact it is stupidly op on any skill lvl
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you can't ignore fact it is stupidly op on any skill lvl
It's easier for bad and average players to do well with the likes of glaive, lhb and the greatswords though.
Also, a question for you guys who thinks it's op. Did you play when it had polestagger? I was long awlpike hero back then, and that was op, and I had no problems admitting that, and lobbied for its removal. Now I find it rather balanced.
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To be fair Teeth was acting like a lil girl that day :D Oh look how OP this is and "that was easy" etc etc for like 10 rounds ^^ What you seem to not notice teeth is that your surrounded by team mates 80% of the time and while you rape with the kills its not the OP weapon that's doing it. Its usually the fact that in a gank you get the best and hardest hit in with the range and speed of the thing. I remember one incident very clear :D there was me and two team mates on a bridge vs you and two team mates on a bridge. you stabbed one of my team mates in the side as he went to attack and killed him then my other team mate decided to team hit me in the back dropping my block as you stabbed and then he died. you then started talking about the weapon being op etc when it really has little to do with it :D
Long story short im not denying your skill teeth or that your one of the better polearmers but most 2d polearms are only really great when surrounded by team mates. Unless you can kick great jumpspin and do all the other crap that only the great players can do then your probably going to lose a duel :D I only fear stabby polearms when in the hands of a few people or in the middle of a group vs group or gank situation. apart from the awlpike i feel they are pretty well balanced.
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I fear awlpike more than i fear longspear or pike, may it be in strat battle or in EU1.
I can chamber the longspear or the pike, if i'm lucky enough.
I can die in one hit if i try to chamber an awlpike.
I'm one of the people ivani4 converted, tired of all the blocking duels. Just gets boring, even though playing safe is often the best choice.
Still believe awlpike and other 2d polearms are okay. At least, the player doesn't have any range protection, unlike all thoses rondel freaks.
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To be fair Teeth was acting like a lil girl that day :D Oh look how OP this is and "that was easy" etc etc for like 10 rounds ^^ What you seem to not notice teeth is that your surrounded by team mates 80% of the time and while you rape with the kills its not the OP weapon that's doing it. Its usually the fact that in a gank you get the best and hardest hit in with the range and speed of the thing. I remember one incident very clear :D there was me and two team mates on a bridge vs you and two team mates on a bridge. you stabbed one of my team mates in the side as he went to attack and killed him then my other team mate decided to team hit me in the back dropping my block as you stabbed and then he died. you then started talking about the weapon being op etc when it really has little to do with it :D
Long story short im not denying your skill teeth or that your one of the better polearmers but most 2d polearms are only really great when surrounded by team mates. Unless you can kick great jumpspin and do all the other crap that only the great players can do then your probably going to lose a duel :D I only fear stabby polearms when in the hands of a few people or in the middle of a group vs group or gank situation. apart from the awlpike i feel they are pretty well balanced.
Okay, so because I do not solo duel round the fringes of the map like all the 2h heroes do, a very high performance is caused by me teamplaying instead of the weapon? You say it yourself, 'you get the best and hardest hit in' which is entirely because of the weapon. The point is, they are really, really, really fucking great when surrounded by teammates. In a 10 vs 10 group situation which is usually the case at the start of the round, I would sit back until it got a little messy. Then I'd hop in, zigzagging around and pow, pow, pow, I'd get six kills by stabbing most people once, occasionally twice. Not that it matters because the time it takes to do a follow up stab after getting a hit in is very little. The speed at which these weapons can do that is unlike any other weapon. With a pike it would be a safer process perhaps, but way slower.
It is not that hard to surround yourself with some teammates, but in other situations they are awesome too. In a ganking situation they are very easy weapons for finishing it and getting the kill. In a getting ganked situation it is very easy to get out alive with target switching and quick stabs netting you kills. When I say very easy I don't mean that you will pull it off each time, but it is definitely easier to survive ganks than with almost any other weapon. In a 1 vs 1 situation it is not great, but hardly bad. You can throw in some overheads, jumpstabs, wiggles, fake stab glances and kicks, which allows you to have a very good chance. Sure these last two situations require quite a high degree of skill and experience, but doing good when fighting with your team does really not. As it is mostly point and click and even an average player would be able to rack up kills quickly, which very quickly tilts the chances of victory for a round towards your team.
And yes, my chat behaviour is very obnoxious, but it does help create awareness of this bullshit and it is simply true. I am literally amazed all the time by the sheer effectivity and ease of using these weapons.
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yes teeth but you could do that with most weapons, i agree that awlpike is op but most normal players don't rape with the other 2d. polearms. for me a weapon is op if it can be abused by the average player (like awl and rondel) i take op posts from the top tier players with a pinch of salt because they can pull that shit off with most weapons.
the fact you get lots of kills with a support weapon while using it as a support weapon with high skill level doesn't say much about its OPness
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As weapons with one of the highest pierce damage in the game, it's normal they tend to be extremely powerful because they don't really pay that damage in any other way than losing two attack directions, which is not that much when you can stab like a sewing machine. The problem with the awlpike in particular is how much more damage you do compared to other weapons. I would be fine personally if all weapons were balanced around that amount of damage, but right now the awlpike and a few equivalents are the outliers and need either to pay that damage advantage more dearly either to be put back in check, by buffing other weapons for example. To OHK people in ganks is an absolutely critical feat and that doesn't seem to reflect on the other stats of the weapon.
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Morningstar
weapon length: 82
weight: 3.7
difficulty: 14
speed rating: 92
weapon length: 82
thrust damage: 0 pierce
swing damage: 38 pierce
slots: 2
Unbalanced
Bonus against Shield
Awlpike
weapon length: 165
weight: 2.5
difficulty: 12
speed rating: 91
weapon length: 165
thrust damage: 33 pierce
swing damage: 20 blunt
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback
2D poles are overrated, both in ganks and duels.
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Morningstar
weapon length: 82
weight: 3.7
difficulty: 14
speed rating: 92
weapon length: 82
thrust damage: 0 pierce
swing damage: 38 pierce
slots: 2
Unbalanced
Bonus against Shield
Awlpike
weapon length: 165
weight: 2.5
difficulty: 12
speed rating: 91
weapon length: 165
thrust damage: 33 pierce
swing damage: 20 blunt
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback
2D poles are overrated, both in ganks and duels.
short unbalanced 2h and long and fast polearm GJ and dont forget abiut op 2h stab
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short unbalanced 2h and long and fast polearm GJ and dont forget abiut op 2h stab
Yes it is somewhat short, but 2h animations add a decent amount of reach, even to the swings, that's 5 more pierce, the morningstar got bonus to shield, the morningstar is faster and weights more. Sure it lacks a stab, but the awlpike lacks swings, and the morningstar sure as fuck makes up for the short reach and the lack of a stab with the other stats.
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Morningstar is an underrated weapon. That beast does 41 pierce at +3. That's sick!
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Yes it is somewhat short, but 2h animations add a decent amount of reach, even to the swings, that's 5 more pierce, the morningstar got bonus to shield, the morningstar is faster and weights more. Sure it lacks a stab, but the awlpike lacks swings, and the morningstar sure as fuck makes up for the short reach and the lack of a stab with the other stats.
It is good weapon far from op anyway not i line with alwpike In my opinion
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Zlisch, make an 18/21 awlpike stf and then whatever your favoured morningstar build is, play both on battle until you have a 100 kills on the site and post the results. Not saying low kill K/D is a perfect measure of effectiveness, but it's the best we've got. I am fairly sure that a player like you will outperform the morningstar with an awlpike in this simple test.
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Morningstar is an underrated weapon. That beast does 41 pierce at +3. That's sick!
there is lot of underated 2h weapons
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I'd like to see the other polearm swing directions to be more reliable in a team fight. The overhead change was a good step in the right direction, but it still bounces off guys a lot when they are near you, same with swings. The thing with stab is that its an attack type that is incredibly reliable. I don't have to worry a single bit about if it will bounce off anything around me (except in front), and it only does damage in 1 part of the screen, right in the centre. With polearm swings they will bounce off guys and do damage in a big arc. Then you have overhead which hits to the right side and bounces off guys behind
Then you would have fewer people taking stabbing weapons for team fighting and get some more variety
About 2d poles..I felt they were comparatively junk tier for ages, and now they finally get more of their length being useful and they are OP? Look at 2 hand and 1 hand stabs and you will see its just a strong attack across the board. If they nerf pole stab while leaving 2 hand and 1 hand the same that will just be pathetic. If they nerf all stabs that will hurt poles more because thats a huge part of what they do. They stab and make you run slower because of their length (length that doesn't actually necessarily equate to longer reach)
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Zlisch, make an 18/21 awlpike stf and then whatever your favoured morningstar build is, play both on battle until you have a 100 kills on the site and post the results. Not saying low kill K/D is a perfect measure of effectiveness, but it's the best we've got. I am fairly sure that a player like you will outperform the morningstar with an awlpike in this simple test.
I might get a better result with an awlpike, but I'm saying they're about equally good, and that the awlpike AND morningstar are fairly balanced weapons, but I've had way more playing time with 2d poles than 3d 2hs.
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These threads are always a fucking joke.
The 2d overheads are so easy to read all you need to do is downblock for anything else.
l2p gf etc
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Two Hand, One Hand and 2D Polearms all have "OP" stabs. (Although I would argue that 2D polearms aren't easy to play at all, unlike an Espada or a German Greatsword.) The initial problem was the absurd versatility of two hand swords, but instead of nerfing them, they just made other commonly played classes in the same category. The game is hilariously over the top now.
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for me a weapon is op if it can be abused by the average player (like awl and rondel)
A lot of people would argue that all Longsword are just average, and yet here we are. Maybe Danish is a batter analogy for EU, though.
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A lot of people would argue that all Longsword are just average, and yet here we are. Maybe Danish is a batter analogy for EU, though.
Seriously? If there is anyone who thinks a longsword is a remotely balanced weapon, please step forward. Someone needs to give you a good smack.
Longsword is easily one of the easiest weapons in the game to use, if not the easiest. I honestly can't think of anything off the top of my head that would be better.
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Just bring the old heavier turn rate "nerf" back. That would make it at least possible to dodge some of them, for all weapon types.
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buff the speed on swings on all other weapons, stop nerfing shit, more buffing plz :lol:
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buff the speed on swings on all other weapons, stop nerfing shit, more buffing plz :lol:
I'd say buff the stun when you stab and get blocked.
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I'd say buff the stun when you stab and get blocked.
That stun is already crazy-long, with most 2d/1d it's a free hit for the blocker if they are close enough.
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That stun is already crazy-long, with most 2d/1d it's a free hit for the blocker if they are close enough.
Bullshit
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Bullshit
Try actually using these weapons for a respectable period of time, then you can comment.
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That stun is already crazy-long, with most 2d/1d it's a free hit for the blocker if they are close enough.
Certainly not "most" but it does happen against very fast swingers. Hence why I don't like the idea of buffing swing speeds. Buff blocking !
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buff 2h
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Funny this seems to be popping up a lot these days - totally agree with Teeth's original post though.
As has been said in other threads - nerf stab in general, all weapon types.
Stab is just the poorest execution of physics in the current engine...creates some really weird and unnatural situations.
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Certainly not "most" but it does happen against very fast swingers. Hence why I don't like the idea of buffing swing speeds. Buff blocking !
or, crazy idea, just leave the shit that is already balanced alone
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Seriously? If there is anyone who thinks a longsword is a remotely balanced weapon, please step forward. Someone needs to give you a good smack.
Longsword is easily one of the easiest weapons in the game to use, if not the easiest. I honestly can't think of anything off the top of my head that would be better.
Sorry, I omitted the word "user". That was supposed to be a stab at 2h players. No pun intended. But intended.
Also, the only way to fix the balance issues we have now is to add a throwing mode to awl pikes that does 184p damage and is retrievable from dead bodies.
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Damage defines the ability of instastab. Damage+PS+WPF+Speedbonus+Strength+hold+hitbox define how close your opponent can be to you for making a successful stab. Tweaking damage should work fine, no need to mess with animations unless you can really fix them instead of making even more broken.
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Okay, make two directional polearms do 20 pierce damage. Instastab fixed, a job well done.
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Okay, make two directional polearms do 20 pierce damage. Instastab fixed, a job well done.
Or just stop fucking around with something that is currently completely fine.
If you think they are OP fighting with them, go make an epeen thread.
If you think they are OP fighting against them, try downblocking, it works wonders.
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I think he was being sarcastic oohiliac
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Or just stop fucking around with something that is currently completely fine.
If you think they are OP fighting with them, go make an epeen thread.
If you think they are OP fighting against them, try downblocking, it works wonders.
I was being sarcastic as DaveUKR proposed lowering pierce damage as a fix for instastabs, which would probably require quite low pierce damage because I have instastabbed with a lot of weapons.
I love two-directional weapons, but I would like them to be at least somewhat balanced so I don't feel like a complete scrub for using them. I like a challenge, it is why I stopped playing hoplite, longspear and two-directionals and got a pike. They are not completely fine, they are stupidly easy. The fact that you tell people to downblock to counter their arguments about the weapon you use probably means you are a bad crutching scrub and you just want your easy mode to stay easy mode.
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If you think they are OP fighting with them, go make an epeen thread.
He doesnt need one, everyone who plays on EU1 know how long is Teeths epeen... :mrgreen:
If you think they are OP fighting against them, try downblocking, it works wonders.
You are a retard my friend.
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They're still not as good as long spear or ashwood pike + shield. At least there's a reason to pick one now, unlike before.
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Wouldnt this be historicly accurate though, stabbing weps beingbvery effective? Aside from being fucking retarded
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They're still not as good as long spear or ashwood pike + shield. At least there's a reason to pick one now, unlike before.
In the hands of the average player, I would disagree. Killing speed in group fights and ease of fighting people up close is much higher with two directionals. Although with the current level of ranged one could argue that any class with a shield trumps any melee class without one.
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Wouldnt this be historicly accurate though, stabbing weps beingbvery effective? Aside from being fucking retarded
My friend, historical accuracy is very very low on c-rpg priority list.
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I was being sarcastic as DaveUKR proposed lowering pierce damage as a fix for instastabs, which would probably require quite low pierce damage because I have instastabbed with a lot of weapons.
I love two-directional weapons, but I would like them to be at least somewhat balanced so I don't feel like a complete scrub for using them. I like a challenge, it is why I stopped playing hoplite, longspear and two-directionals and got a pike. They are not completely fine, they are stupidly easy. The fact that you tell people to downblock to counter their arguments about the weapon you use probably means you are a bad crutching scrub and you just want your easy mode to stay easy mode.
I didn't propose to lower damage, it's just the only solution of instastab besides fixing animation. And as you've might noticed - nobody in crpg dev team has skills in fixing animations because you either have to be talented or have a mo-cap equipment.
What I would personally do is get the polestun back for those weapons and lower damage/speed a bit so they work more like a supportive weapon. I don't like nerfs, I'm sure that if you nerf something - you have to give something instead.
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I think what Teeth is noticing really is that they are easier to use than his standard stabbing weapon, the Long Spear. Which might be true but doesn't make them OP. Long Spear still has its own advantages and not everything has to be as difficult to use as that.
If you think 2D poles are OP then try hoplite, 1 hand stabbing, 2 hand, xbows etc. They can't really do much without making 2D poles obsolete again, they have to have something going for them to justify only being 2 directions or not having a shield.
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You know the more I play the less 2h lolstabs acctually bother me. Shit has really hit the fan lately. The 2d poles are probably the bane of my exsistance in this whole mod. Id take getting run over by an entire cavalrychargestampede or a arrowstorm straight in my face for multible rounds straight than have even a single fight with someone who uses a 2d pole. Its just frustrating as hell. I mean fighting lolstabbers and OP 1h stabbers is hard yes, but not so frustrating. Fighting a 2d poleplayer, is something that makes me call instant bullshit, even when I come out winning.
Fix the 1h stab back to the old one, nerf awlpike and leave the 2h lolstab if you really must. I hate the 1h stab. Im playin 1h and its too damn useful and easy to execute.
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Teeth your mom thought my 2D pole was OP, so you may be on to something.
Why hasn't this thread been nerfed to the Chamber of Tears?
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Why hasn't this thread been nerfed to the Chamber of Tears?
Because it doesn't suit your status quo rethoric
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I think what Teeth is noticing really is that they are easier to use than his standard stabbing weapon, the Long Spear. Which might be true but doesn't make them OP. Long Spear still has its own advantages and not everything has to be as difficult to use as that.
If you think 2D poles are OP then try hoplite, 1 hand stabbing, 2 hand, xbows etc. They can't really do much without making 2D poles obsolete again, they have to have something going for them to justify only being 2 directions or not having a shield.
I think what I am noticing is that stabbing with any weapon within the poles/1h class is much, much easier than it was before. Now 1h needed a stab improvement, but it was overdone, polearm did not need one at all. Two-directional polearms were not weak at all pre-patch, I'd say they were in an excellent position. The thing the two-directionals have going for them is death on a very long, quick stick. If you revert polearm stabs to what they were, you still have 33-36p with around 90 speed, which when it comes to stabbing is really high speed, and 170-180 length. Also, polearm overhead got sped up significantly.
My standard stabbing weapon is the pike by the way, I haven't used the Long Spear outside of Strat for like 1,5 years.
Why hasn't this thread been nerfed to the Chamber of Tears?
Probably because people know me as a polearm stab abuser through and through so they might actually think my comments on polearm stabbing are grounded in something else than a 'nerf my counter' mentality.
Basically if you'd carefully read my point is that stabs in general are OP, which is most clearly noticable with two-directional polearms because they are so damn good at stabbing. My pike also got like +15 effective reach due to being able to hit late animation, but 15 more animation reach is simply not as significant on a 300 reach weapon. I'd like to see a revert of the polearm stabbing change, as it was unnecessary. Polearm stabs were good enough and stabs should not hit until the very end of the animation, it looks stupid. 2h should glance earlier in the animation than it has always done and 1h stab should also glance slightly earlier, but not as early as before.
I think that would equalize the 3 stabs and would not make them too strong compared to swings. It would remove the ridiculous late stabbing for all 3 classes and would prevent a lot of awkward deaths.
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I'd like to see a revert of the polearm stabbing change, as it was unnecessary. Polearm stabs were good enough and stabs should not hit until the very end of the animation, it looks stupid. 2h should glance earlier in the animation than it has always done and 1h stab should also glance slightly earlier, but not as early as before.
I think that would equalize the 3 stabs and would not make them too strong compared to swings. It would remove the ridiculous late stabbing for all 3 classes and would prevent a lot of awkward deaths.
This is basically what I am saying and people scream biaised :(
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It just frustrates me that even polearms that have 80 something speed stab faster than say a normal 2h slash or 1h slash
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From a 1h/short 2h perspective that may be the case.
O = Person
> = Pointy end of polearm
Distance for a 1h
--O-->O
--O--> O Distance for a longer 2h
Upon release, even at lower speeds, it takes a similar time to get a proper hitbox at close range, but then it takes a while for the stab to extend. The longer the distance, the easier it is to get your swing in first as long as you're in range. The close range swinger gets caught more often since the start of the stab is just that much closer. Slower stabs do have a pretty decent delay on the initial chamber, though.
The above example is similar to a spear's stabbing experience. When you get to awlpike/long awlpike levels, you can wiggle into close distance and 2h distances become close. Best tactic is to move so close that the stab glances (very susceptible to kicks since you're moving into them on purpose) or get somewhat close and try to move away from the wiggle direction (up to down you can't challenge easily).
With 1h stab, the natural speed on the weapons and reach bonus are so good that medium-long distances on the stab reach very quickly with short chamber times. At very long/short distances you could do something, but at medium distances you can't challenge it with anything and must block. Moving in can easily change the long distance to medium at any point, which makes it even riskier.
I believe that only stabs should be balanced with each other- reach bonus and sweetspot areas. There are many variables when looking at stab vs slash, especially when you take thrust stun, what should hit first, etc. into account. I still think that stabs are balanced with each other, but have too poorly defined sweetspot areas because raw damage can overcome poor hits.
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Doesn't matter which weapon type.... stabs in this game is just overused.... gawwd combat is boring these days :?
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I think the 3 weapon types are more balanced now than ever when it comes to the stab.
There is the evil and imba polearm stabbers
The horrible and OP lolstab 2handers
And the new kids, lame and FOTM 1h stabbers.
Which one should be buffed/nerfed? ALL? NONE?
I guess slight tweaking of animation and sweetspots to make the game more fluid and responsive might be a good idea, but thats easier said than done.
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i fear awlpikers more than anyone else on the battlefield and i have a shield O.o some polearms do an incredible amount of damage with almost insta release :( i dont see a problem with 2h stabs at all and maybe 1h stabs should be slower or the damage nerfed a little :P
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Yeah they're pretty strong. Having zero problems with an unloomed ashwood pike, no shield.
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By the way, what do you think about halberd-type weapons? Ranseur, Swiss Halberd, English Bill etc. I didn't see much people using them in any kind of gameplay.
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Yeah they're pretty strong. Having zero problems with an unloomed ashwood pike, no shield.
Might be a broken record, but how about buffing cheaper poles to coincide with cheaper 1 hander/2handers?
Long Volgue doesn't need to be unbalanced, and 18 pierce is laughable
How about giving horse rearing stat to weapons <141 length. If you can stab a cav in the head with a short weapon you deserve the rear, with how easy it is to get bumped or hit with anything. It would make the spears shorter than Battle Fork something to consider rather than jumping straight to War Spear/Ashwood Pike/Battlefork
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I don't think anyone can deny that they are strong but they're only strong in the right hands. They are not nearly as intuitive as 4 directional weapons.
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By the way, what do you think about halberd-type weapons? Ranseur, Swiss Halberd, English Bill etc. I didn't see much people using them in any kind of gameplay.
I can say that the English Bill has been fine ever since they reduced it's weight so it turns faster. With the recent overhead speed up it's a very good weapon. It's just that with the recent superbuff to all stabs having a 34p overhead and a 30p stab is worse than having a 35p stab and a crap overhead on for example the Long Awlpike. Stabs outshine the polearm overhead by far now, which makes them relatively UP, but only because the real stabby polearms are OP.
Although I played with the English Bill today and the hit detection was god awful, I teamhit and missed much more than I can remember. It hits way too the right of where I aim usually. Also, the Swiss Halberd with it's 41p is in my opinion terrible compared to the 34p of the Bill. Ranseur is not much of an overhead focused polearm anyway, 30c is crap, it's OP because of the good stab.
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I like the 2d polearms, they are very fun to use and I would use more...but arrows suck.
On polearms having good stabs, they have slow pull backs to their attacks to compensate. So I think poles getting first strike is fine as long as you go in with the mindset that it will not be an easy kill because lolpole.
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I can say that the English Bill has been fine ever since they reduced it's weight so it turns faster. With the recent overhead speed up it's a very good weapon. It's just that with the recent superbuff to all stabs having a 34p overhead and a 30p stab is worse than having a 35p stab and a crap overhead on for example the Long Awlpike. Stabs outshine the polearm overhead by far now, which makes them relatively UP, but only because the real stabby polearms are OP.
Although I played with the English Bill today and the hit detection was god awful, I teamhit and missed much more than I can remember. It hits way too the right of where I aim usually. Also, the Swiss Halberd with it's 41p is in my opinion terrible compared to the 34p of the Bill. Ranseur is not much of an overhead focused polearm anyway, 30c is crap, it's OP because of the good stab.
I use the Swiss Halberd as my main weapon and I prefer it the most out of all the 2d polearms. Main reason is because it's noticeably quicker and easier to aim, and that bonus against shields gives it great versatility. Also, 41c to the head is still devastating, not as hard hitting as the Bill but still quite strong.
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to be fair i find most 2d polearms fine. Ashwood pike and awlpike however seem to be better 1 on 1 weapons than anything else :D as a pole/1h/cav/anything guy (i have 18-18 120wpf in 1h 120wpf in 2h) i fear someone with awlpike or ashwood more than say teeth as a hoplite or with his pike :D no offence if you just had awlpike id run like hell but as hoplite im willing to risk an attack. other polearms seem ok just awlpike and ashwood are bane of my life <3
tldr id rather fight the top 5 2h duelists in a row on eu1 than a great fighter with an awlpike :/
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to be fair i find most 2d polearms fine. Ashwood pike and awlpike however seem to be better 1 on 1 weapons than anything else :D as a pole/1h/cav/anything guy (i have 18-18 120wpf in 1h 120wpf in 2h) i fear someone with awlpike or ashwood more than say teeth as a hoplite or with his pike :D no offence if you just had awlpike id run like hell but as hoplite im willing to risk an attack. other polearms seem ok just awlpike and ashwood are bane of my life <3
tldr id rather fight the top 5 2h duelists in a row on eu1 than a great fighter with an awlpike :/
What if the hoplite is using an ashwood :P
I can say that the English Bill has been fine ever since they reduced it's weight so it turns faster. With the recent overhead speed up it's a very good weapon. It's just that with the recent superbuff to all stabs having a 34p overhead and a 30p stab is worse than having a 35p stab and a crap overhead on for example the Long Awlpike. Stabs outshine the polearm overhead by far now, which makes them relatively UP, but only because the real stabby polearms are OP.
Although I played with the English Bill today and the hit detection was god awful, I teamhit and missed much more than I can remember. It hits way too the right of where I aim usually. Also, the Swiss Halberd with it's 41c is in my opinion terrible compared to the 34p of the Bill. Ranseur is not much of an overhead focused polearm anyway, 30c is crap, it's OP because of the good stab.
The thing about English Bill and Swiss Halberd I think, you can fight back with Swiss Halberd in 1v1 while you can't with English Bill (similiar to long spear etc. , not with conventional methods I mean). Is that the same for you too?
By the way, a small correction :)