cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Realism Discussion => Topic started by: DonNicko on September 27, 2013, 07:07:47 am

Title: knockdown circumstances
Post by: DonNicko on September 27, 2013, 07:07:47 am
I want to discuss about knockdowning. In c-rpg as I see less str build can knockdown high str build. I dont know is there any differences between chances to knockdown of non str build and str build. But for real life its too hard to knockdown smbd real strong. Maybe we can make knockdown depending on str. Please this is just for discussion dont blame me)
Title: Re: knockdown circumstances
Post by: PsychoTwins on September 27, 2013, 07:19:11 am
So, for example, you would like to see something like (i dont code) KnockdownChance = Str*WepWeight*0.2 or whatever default its at? or remove the default chance and only Str*WepWeight?
Title: Re: knockdown circumstances
Post by: San on September 27, 2013, 07:20:36 am
Knockdown chance maximizes at 40 raw damage (and minimizes at 20 raw damage I believe), which is like 29 blunt and 3PS. The raw damage requirements should be 1.5-2x at least.
Title: Re: knockdown circumstances
Post by: PsychoTwins on September 27, 2013, 07:21:58 am
Quote from: san. on September 27, 2013, 07:20:36 am
Knockdown chance maximizes at 40 raw damage (and minimizes at 20 raw damage I believe), which is like 29 blunt and 3PS. The raw damage requirements should be 1.5-2x at least.

So is that why the little spiked club doesnt knockdown?
Title: Re: knockdown circumstances
Post by: San on September 27, 2013, 07:28:54 am
No, the low raw damage requirements means that most of the time, people typically get the max % chance knockdown for their weapons. I don't use the light spiked club, but it has terrible base damage and pierce. Without speed bonus/holding, you'll need a decent 7-8 PS hit to easily reach 40 raw damage with 20 pierce. Also, it's highly likely that the knockdown tag doesn't work with the pierce damage type.
Title: Re: knockdown circumstances
Post by: Palurgee on September 27, 2013, 12:32:46 pm
I like knockdown as is. First, we really don't need another buff for strength builds. Second, knockdown should be a random occurrence, not something you can achieve based on your build.
Title: Re: knockdown circumstances
Post by: DonNicko on September 27, 2013, 01:01:48 pm
Quote from: Palurgee on September 27, 2013, 12:32:46 pm
I like knockdown as is. First, we really don't need another buff for strength builds. Second, knockdown should be a random occurrence, not something you can achieve based on your build.
Ок, but I Think Str builds must be harder to knockdown
Title: Re: knockdown circumstances
Post by: Sagar on September 27, 2013, 02:29:01 pm
Quote from: Palurgee on September 27, 2013, 12:32:46 pm
we really don't need another buff for strength builds

And when we have buff for strength builds?
Title: Re: knockdown circumstances
Post by: Kalp on September 27, 2013, 02:35:40 pm
Quote
I like knockdown as is.
Military Hammer = knockdown every second hit. Well.....at least on strategus battles.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: knockdown circumstances
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on September 27, 2013, 09:32:49 pm
why should someone with more agility not be able to knock somebody else down?
Somebody who works out 5 hours a day and has tons of muscle cannot be knocked down?

to post this in the realism discussion is bullshit, might make sense in balance... but meh
Title: Re: knockdown circumstances
Post by: DonNicko on September 28, 2013, 11:51:15 am
Quote from: Grumpy_Nic on September 27, 2013, 09:32:49 pm
Somebody who works out 5 hours a day and has tons of muscle cannot be knocked down?
He can be, but not the same chances like a weakling
Title: Re: knockdown circumstances
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on September 29, 2013, 09:56:45 pm
I think the more common trope for extreme top-heavy strength/weight (i.e. non-dwarves, people who skip leg day) is that they're harder to push/wrestle down head to head by a smaller humanoid pushing against their center of balance, but once they actually get off balance via a trip or a blow off-center it's hard for them to recover.

Title: Re: knockdown circumstances
Post by: Jona on October 30, 2013, 05:49:14 pm
Let us not forget that the 'little whimp' would be charging at the strong guy at a full sprint, while the strong guy would be casually walking towards the whimp when he hits him. Look at american football... you see those guys tackle guys without any running start? Speed bonus OP irl. KD chances between str and agi are fine as is.
Title: Re: knockdown circumstances
Post by: Templar_Steevee on November 01, 2013, 06:01:37 pm
Knockdown chance ok? I - an archer with 18 str and 1 ps (made tests before lvl up) was overheading bobby with +3 warhammer, he had 24 str full if, over 60 body armor. In first try I knockdown him 3 of 4 hits, in second try 4 of 5.  I had no hold and no speed bonus (I was standing still). We made that test before one of strat battles on duel server.
As a head armor bobby had a +3 great helmet.

Knockdown IS OP.
Title: Re: knockdown circumstances
Post by: DonNicko on November 01, 2013, 07:52:55 pm
Quote from: Templar_Steevee on November 01, 2013, 06:01:37 pm
Knockdown chance ok? I - an archer with 18 str and 1 ps (made tests before lvl up) was overheading bobby with +3 warhammer, he had 24 str full if, over 60 body armor. In first try I knockdown him 3 of 4 hits, in second try 4 of 5.  I had no hold and no speed bonus (I was standing still). We made that test before one of strat battles on duel server.
As a head armor bobby had a +3 great helmet.

Knockdown IS OP.

Yes, that's what meant
Title: Re: knockdown circumstances
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on November 01, 2013, 08:23:09 pm
How much WPF you have in 1h? Assuming only 1?  1 vs 50 vs 100 actually makes a huge difference if you have 1 PS and using a 34 blunt 1h weapon (vs 70 armor).

AFAIK knockdown chance is only affected by damage dealt.  And I've heard it maxes out at 30% of knockdown.  You need to run your test at least 100 times before coming to any conclusion, and even then, it's not going to be as accurate as running the test 1000, or infinite amount of times.

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Title: Re: knockdown circumstances
Post by: MURDERTRON on November 01, 2013, 08:26:44 pm
Wpf should play a part in knockdown chance.
Title: Re: knockdown circumstances
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on November 01, 2013, 08:27:09 pm
Quote from: MURDERTRON on November 01, 2013, 08:26:44 pm
Wpf should play a part in knockdown chance.

It does, it directly affects damage output, especially with 1 PS.
Title: Re: knockdown circumstances
Post by: San on November 01, 2013, 08:33:23 pm
Getting max knockdown is just way too easy and the percentages are really high. I get a knockdown on someone and I can get a held+speed bonus hit while they're helpless on the ground (and possibly a kick+another hit). That's actually worth more than a 2 extra hits since you can line up your swings at your discretion. Knockdown when fighting happens so suddenly that getting the cumbersome-to-control roll off is highly improbable.

In a 1vX, knocking someone down gets him in the way of his teammates and opens even more openings to get hits in.

As I stated earlier in this topic, increasing the raw damage to 80 makes it so that only really good held hits or highly damaging weapons can reach the maximum %. Some weapons (most notably 1hs) need to have a lower weight so their maximum % chance to knockdown is decreased, especially since they're the easiest to get hits with.

All of this allowed me to achieve ridiculous performances in strat battles over the last few weeks with only 6PS and +3 warhammer (and +3 iberian on one map).
Title: Re: knockdown circumstances
Post by: Templar_Steevee on November 01, 2013, 08:51:21 pm
I got only 18 wpf, it shows even more that knockdown is op. Did i mentioned that knockdowns in my tests were in a row?
Title: Re: knockdown circumstances
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on November 01, 2013, 08:57:50 pm
Quote from: Templar_Steevee on November 01, 2013, 08:51:21 pm
I got only 18 wpf, it shows even more that knockdown is op. Did i mentioned that knockdowns in my tests were in a row?

Yeah that is pretty ridiculous against 70+ armor...looking at the weapon calculator it says you should be doing less than 10 damage to him (probably closer to 5). 

Guessing not many devs (read 0) will even look into knockdown since DonNicko started the thread.  Suggest you read up on "the boy who cried wolf".  I personally didn't give a 2nd thought to his opinion because he just seems to whine and make shit threads.

A broken clock is still showing the right time twice a day.
Title: Re: knockdown circumstances
Post by: San on November 01, 2013, 09:08:03 pm
When I see "raw_damage," I think of your weapon+damage modifiers without taking armor into account. That's why I think it's kind of ridiculous how low it is. It would make more sense if it was final damage at least, right?
Title: Re: knockdown circumstances
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on November 01, 2013, 09:11:26 pm
I gotta imagine that was an oversight, and it should have been final damage, not raw damage in the knockdown modifier.  At least that's what I'm hoping happened.  But again, I doubt this thread will see the light of day considering the quality of topics DonNicko is known for.
Title: Re: knockdown circumstances
Post by: Templar_Steevee on November 01, 2013, 10:58:11 pm
If they will change raw dmg into final dmg knockdown chance will be fixed IMO