cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Lecram on September 23, 2013, 10:21:19 pm

Title: balance the heavy lance
Post by: Lecram on September 23, 2013, 10:21:19 pm
So i think that the upkeep of the heavy lance is a bit to high (about 700 gold)
and the heavy lance dont do that much dmg (24p). and now look to other lances

light lance has less upkeep but 3 more dmg? dafuq? A LIGHT lance does more dmg as a HEAVY lance? the word heavy says that a weapon should be strong and the word light says that a weapon should be light and shouldnt do that much dmg. and finally the lance

the lance cost about 5k in the shop and does more dmg as a MASTERWORK HEAVY lance? i mean where is the balance for the heavy lance if all lances (exept the double sided lance) have less upkeep and do a lot more dmg as a heavy lance? In my opium u should disincrease the upkeep for a heavy lance or increase te upkeep fromlance and light lance. give the heavy lance a balance!
so pls think about that  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: balance the heavy lance
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 23, 2013, 10:34:08 pm
yeah the heavy lance is priced too high IMO.  It's the best weapon for going up against other cavalry, but it's inferior to the lance for killing infantry.  Even the lance can take on heavy lance users if you have good maneuvering/juking skills on your horse, or if they aren't able to use the full length of the heavy lance (Or get it to full extension before you are able to).
Title: Re: balance the heavy lance
Post by: San on September 23, 2013, 10:52:32 pm
Reduce its price to the same level as the other lances.
Title: Re: balance the heavy lance
Post by: Gurnisson on September 23, 2013, 11:26:43 pm
Quote from: san. on September 23, 2013, 10:52:32 pm
Reduce its price to the same level as the other lances.

This. While the lower damage is somewhat justified (1 more pierce wouldn't hurt though), the higher (almost double!) price is not.
Title: Re: balance the heavy lance
Post by: XyNox on September 24, 2013, 02:40:07 am
Isnt it all about the massive speed bonus you get with such a slow weapon on a fast horse ?
Title: Re: balance the heavy lance
Post by: Palurgee on September 24, 2013, 03:44:29 am
Approved, heavy lance is too weak. The thing has less thrust damage than an iron staff and its slower than a mallet ... The +10 reach over the regular lance doesn't make up for its other shit stats, including its price... 10,000g for this piece of shit? A pitch fork does 1 less point of damage and its only 127g. Buff heavy lance!
Title: Re: balance the heavy lance
Post by: Legs on September 24, 2013, 04:14:13 am
Heavy lance was one of those weapons that was too popular for some reason (hint: it's the longest thrusting lance) so they gave it a great big nerf to force people into something else.

As a result the only people that still use it are the oldschool lancers who only use it out of habit or because they think that it's fun despite being underpowered. Sort of like when people use the practice lance or jousting lance, although both of those are arguably better than the heavy lance.
Title: Re: balance the heavy lance
Post by: MURDERTRON on September 24, 2013, 05:13:21 am
Also the Heavy Lance is worthless on foot while the Light Lance is quite good and the normal Lance would never be a first choice, but it is useable.
Title: Re: balance the heavy lance
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on September 24, 2013, 07:04:38 am
At least it's somewhat amusing seeing it called the "heavy glance".

I don't think the speed difference is enough to make up for the damage difference, but it is much easier to hit things with a slower stabbing lance on horseback.
Title: Re: balance the heavy lance
Post by: Malaclypse on September 24, 2013, 07:09:26 am
Quote from: MURDERTRON on September 24, 2013, 05:13:21 am
Also the Heavy Lance is worthless on foot

190 reach overheads make for great support, think about it. Not shabby as a hoplite weapon either.
Title: Re: balance the heavy lance
Post by: Kafein on September 24, 2013, 09:25:40 am
Quote from: Malaclypse on September 24, 2013, 07:09:26 am
190 reach overheads make for great support, think about it. Not shabby as a hoplite weapon either.

Bounce all day everyday
Title: Re: balance the heavy lance
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 24, 2013, 04:58:14 pm
Quote from: Malaclypse on September 24, 2013, 07:09:26 am
190 reach overheads make for great support, think about it. Not shabby as a hoplite weapon either.

It's a night and day difference between using a lance on foot (which I do all the time when dehorsed) and the heavy lance (even when it had more damage).  The heavy lance would only be used by me in extreme situations (basically if I was near teammates who didn't have a spear/lance/pike). 
Title: Re: balance the heavy lance
Post by: Teeth on September 24, 2013, 05:32:08 pm
I think the current price of the Heavy Lance is due to the first balance attempt when it was the undisputed king of lances, unsurprisingly balance by upkeep proved ineffective. So they now balanced it by stats, a little heavily. Currently there is indeed no reason that the Heavy Lance should be in a different price range as the other lances.

Light Lance is my favourite lance as an armour, heavy horse and strength crutching lancer. I have no qualms taking on any other lancers head on, as few seem to be really proficient at using their lance to its full extent, especially when I do tactical slowdowns. When fighting infantry the Light Lance is just amazing and when dehorsed it is relatively bad compared to awlpikes and the lot, but still very usable.

Heavy Lance deserves at least a price decrease to 6k and probably a 1 or maybe 2 damage increase. Although I don't know to what extent the slow speed rating attributes to the damage after speed bonus. Maybe with a +3 courser and high riding skill doing full speed hit and runs is actually very effective? I can't be arsed to try it as that is the complete opposite of my playstyle as cav, but if anybody can comment on that?

Quote from: Malaclypse on September 24, 2013, 07:09:26 am
190 reach overheads make for great support, think about it. Not shabby as a hoplite weapon either.
You are wrong. It's horrible by any standard. Sure you can kill someone with it, but you can also do that with a sickle.
Title: Re: balance the heavy lance
Post by: Jarold on September 25, 2013, 01:14:18 am
I think the reach is major factor too. It's long and slow which is actually useful for cavalry..... or at least when I played. But I still would use the lance over any other one.
Title: Re: balance the heavy lance
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 25, 2013, 03:39:00 pm
In my mind it's still the best cav vs cav weapon, but that doesn't mean it should be worth twice as much as the lance (I use the lance btw), I personally think the lance is a better weapon and should be the more expensive one (or at least priced evenly). 
Title: Re: balance the heavy lance
Post by: Inglorious on September 25, 2013, 04:13:36 pm
Quote from: CrazyCracka420 on September 25, 2013, 03:39:00 pm
In my mind it's still the best cav vs cav weapon, but that doesn't mean it should be worth twice as much as the lance (I use the lance btw), I personally think the lance is a better weapon and should be the more expensive one (or at least priced evenly).

are you speaking of pricing like the spetum corseque partisan ranseur? the difference in them is large in situational effectiveness and their prices are varied by an ammount
Title: Re: balance the heavy lance
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 25, 2013, 04:52:49 pm
No those new fangled weapons have never been on my screen before, so I have no idea about their pricing :P

I just think heavy lance should be closer to lance price because they both have their uses, but one is not superior to the other in all situations.
Title: Re: balance the heavy lance
Post by: Inglorious on September 25, 2013, 08:10:26 pm
Quote from: CrazyCracka420 on September 25, 2013, 04:52:49 pm
No those new fangled weapons have never been on my screen before, so I have no idea about their pricing :P

I just think heavy lance should be closer to lance price because they both have their uses, but one is not superior to the other in all situations.

Quote from: IngloriouslyBad on September 25, 2013, 04:13:36 pm
are you speaking of pricing like the spetum corseque partisan ranseur? the difference in them is large in situational effectiveness and their prices are varied by an ammount

Each below has it's own unique strengths. Each is measurably the same function; an infantry two directional attack/support pole arm.

However, they have different pricing, based upon each of their unique factors; i.e mixed cut/piece, blunt/pierce, pierce/pierce, cut/cut.

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Where these weapons above are all similar but different, we can relate it to the difference in the cavalry tier polearms.

The Partisan, like the heavy lance, being the most expensive, is not necessarily the best. But it has it's functionality. It has high cut damage and can split shields in a heart beat with both it's thrust and overhead, making it a very useful weapon. It's price however I do not believe reflects its similar brothers, just like the heavy lance.

Light Lance, good for close up infantry fighting for extended periods, and precise quick bursts of high damage, not the choice weapon to take on heavy cavalry lancers, but with maneuver and skill can be a deadly counter to all other lances and cavalry. Least expensive of the mainstream lances.

Lance, balanced play between close up fighting and skirmishing, relatively high damage, quick. A good choice versus all forms of enemy and weaponry. Base relative price of main lance tier.

Heavy Lance, primarily a heavy skirmish weapon as it is very slow, but accurate, and relies on rider speed control to increase damage through timing of hit. Very long and slow to fire, making it not the best choice for extended periods of being stuck trotting in a crowd of infantry. In my opinion as I'm as you called it an "old school" style lancer, requires the most patience and skill to master. Highest price of all lances.

Keep in mind I do not include couching in this. All my analysis is thrust based. I don't believe in couching in a head to head cavalry duel. It's... dishonorable in my opinion. Against infantry however, it's fair game if you can manage it while keeping your horse alive. But that would open up a whole new post for me to go into detail over, so I'll stick to thrust damage in this one.

I'd prefer to see either one or both of these options in attempt to balance the heavy lance:

A damage increase of [1] on the heavy lance
Or
A price reduction of the heavy lance to relate to its set "rank" in the lance tier
^
Based upon how often it's used vs others/effectiveness/ambiguous community value of the weapon