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cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Akynos on September 05, 2013, 10:13:42 pm

Title: How to solve the melee vs ranged vs cav conflict in Battle Mode
Post by: Akynos on September 05, 2013, 10:13:42 pm
Tits and Gentlemen,

What's the issue?:

Players are annoyed at the inconsistencies of the amount of classes in Battle mode ; Sometimes a whole team of melee players get ranged to death. Some other times they get rushed by cavalry. Other times they are hit and run'd by ranged cavalry, often at the end of rounds where few have the patience to wait until said person is able to be killed.
This results, as you know, to many rage topics asking to 'nerf' those classes which they consider overpowered ( which they doubtfully are)

Why does it happen?

It is easily noticeable that those scenarios do not happen simply because ranged or cavalry ( or melee) survived well the round ; It is rather due to the number of players playing that class in a single team in the beginning of a round.

White Team may have 30 melee players, 10 ranged and 5 cavalry
Blue Team may have 20 melee players, 10 ranged and 15 cavalry

On an open map, this equals to a 4-0 steamrolling for Blue Team. And a serious anal deformation for the White Team.

So how do we solve it?

The easiest way, in my opinion, would be to change the balance system so that it takes into account weapons and equipment.
This would result in teams which have ( roughly) the same amount of melee, ranged and cavalry players in them.

I will try to give an idea of how the code would look like (coders please look away if you do not want your eyes to bleed)

=If player( weapon category = OneHanded), "Melee"
=If player( weapon category = Bow), "Ranged"
=If player( weapon category = Bow) and (Use Horse = "Yes"), "Ranged Cavalry"

With such a (blunt) kind of code it would be possible to balance the teams based on the players equipment. The importance of the equipment on the balance would be, in my opinion, weaker than the banner balance, unless disparities in classes are great.

Cprg-ers, tell me what you think. If the idea is popular enough we can try to submit it to the few active devs left.




Title: Re: How to solve the melee vs ranged vs cav conflict in Battle Mode
Post by: Necrorave on September 05, 2013, 10:18:59 pm
Been mentioned many different times.  A big problem I can see though is that this could conflict with banner balance and score balancing.

All the "Balancing" systems we have now already conflict with each other, imagine what it would be like with one more system.

I am not against the idea, but multiple systems do not coexist well.
Title: Re: How to solve the melee vs ranged vs cav conflict in Battle Mode
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 05, 2013, 10:46:02 pm
Agree that balance is the main issue, more so than any class being "OP" or needing to be nerfed.

Horse archers aren't a problem, but when there's only 10 on the server, and they're all on the same team, they become annoying and can be a problem for the game balance. 

Same with if there's 20 archers online, and 15 are on the same team, people start to rage about archers.

I personally think that there's not any problem between the classes and that any team has just as good a chance of winning any round as the other team. I think the majority of the time the rounds are decided based on player's and team's actions, not on things they have no control over.
Title: Re: How to solve the melee vs ranged vs cav conflict in Battle Mode
Post by: Malaclypse on September 05, 2013, 10:50:00 pm
I've suggested this in independent threads of my creation as well as piggy-backing posts on other threads, and I'm not the only one. The problem is that most people don't want matches balanced by classes; most people are in factions, and mostly those people in factions want to play on the same team as their bros, balance be damned.
Title: Re: How to solve the melee vs ranged vs cav conflict in Battle Mode
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 05, 2013, 10:52:23 pm
Quote from: Malaclypse on September 05, 2013, 10:50:00 pm
I've suggested this in independent threads of my creation as well as piggy-backing posts on other threads, and I'm not the only one. The problem is that most people don't want matches balanced by classes; most people are in factions, and mostly those people in factions want to play on the same team as their bros, balance be damned.

I think the split is probably closer to 50/50.  People like me (who routinely enjoy rolling the public server for x5's all night) still would prefer to have balance based on classes and skill before taking banner balance into account.

Sure if you can allow people of the same banner to mostly play on the same team, I think that's a good thing.  But it shouldn't be at the expense of relatively balanced teams.

We're playing on public servers...have none of you ever heard of the term "pub stomp" before?  It's not something to be mimicked or replicated...and the game mechanics that encourage it, should be dismantled.
Title: Re: How to solve the melee vs ranged vs cav conflict in Battle Mode
Post by: Grumbs on September 06, 2013, 12:48:11 pm
A big part of the game for me is playing with clan mates. I like that teamwork you get when clans are all put together on the same side. It doesn't even matter if you're in their clan, just them being together promotes teamplay

I would prefer a gear limit per round kind of like in Strategus. The limit could be based on how strong the items get according to how many are on a team.

So you get a pool of certain things like Longbows, Coursers, Milanese Plate etc but no limit on weaker versions or stuff that should be common. You could even then buff the crap out of certain things if there are only a limited amount, or make new specifications like only usable on horse but buff it while limiting the amount.

Could even work for events if you put in a super OP item or gear but only 1 per team.

Title: Re: How to solve the melee vs ranged vs cav conflict in Battle Mode
Post by: Tyefire on September 06, 2013, 01:25:00 pm
Forget everything that was said. We should have a deathmatch server so all of these OP class could all clash into one and be gay together. And they would leave the battle server alone. 
Title: Re: How to solve the melee vs ranged vs cav conflict in Battle Mode
Post by: Christo on September 06, 2013, 03:26:59 pm
<--- Suggested years ago multiple times, won't happen.
Title: Re: How to solve the melee vs ranged vs cav conflict in Battle Mode
Post by: Akynos on September 07, 2013, 02:20:45 pm
bump, I'd like some dev feedback
Title: Re: How to solve the melee vs ranged vs cav conflict in Battle Mode
Post by: Adamar on September 08, 2013, 10:08:14 pm
The devs dont care.
Title: Re: How to solve the melee vs ranged vs cav conflict in Battle Mode
Post by: Kafein on September 08, 2013, 10:42:10 pm
You literally tell coders to look away then ask devs some feedback
Title: Re: How to solve the melee vs ranged vs cav conflict in Battle Mode
Post by: Swaggart on September 09, 2013, 07:00:24 pm
Quote from: Kafein on September 08, 2013, 10:42:10 pm
You literally tell coders to look away then ask devs some feedback

You realize he was making a joke, right?
Title: Re: How to solve the melee vs ranged vs cav conflict in Battle Mode
Post by: Kafein on September 09, 2013, 10:27:44 pm
Quote from: Swaggart on September 09, 2013, 07:00:24 pm
You realize he was making a joke, right?

I do, and I think you realise my previous post was a joke too
Title: Re: How to solve the melee vs ranged vs cav conflict in Battle Mode
Post by: Matey on September 10, 2013, 01:43:03 am
the obvious solution is to just remove ranged and cav from game. problem solved!
Title: Re: How to solve the melee vs ranged vs cav conflict in Battle Mode
Post by: Bjord on September 10, 2013, 02:10:07 am
This has been suggested countless times (and not just on the forums), did you think your thoughts were unique?

The devs are simply too busy, the problem of autobalance has become a thorn in the side which has grown beneath the very skin of the balance in cRPG. It's been around forever and I am prepared to be surprised the day it gets dealt with. Don't keep your hopes up.

Sorry to rain on your parade, it's just what I think.
Title: Re: How to solve the melee vs ranged vs cav conflict in Battle Mode
Post by: Akynos on September 10, 2013, 09:48:07 am
Quote from: Bjord on September 10, 2013, 02:10:07 am
This has been suggested countless times (and not just on the forums), did you think your thoughts were unique?

The devs are simply too busy, the problem of autobalance has become a thorn in the side which has grown beneath the very skin of the balance in cRPG. It's been around forever and I am prepared to be surprised the day it gets dealt with. Don't keep your hopes up.

Sorry to rain on your parade, it's just what I think.

Well I knew many people already suggested the idea, however it never hurts to insist. Well I do not understand why such things are not taken into account by devs and instead we are given shit like flaming katanas and donkeys...priorities got right.
Anyway thanks all for the replies
Title: Re: How to solve the melee vs ranged vs cav conflict in Battle Mode
Post by: F i n on September 10, 2013, 11:29:32 am
I think we need to adjust the cav builds to hunt down other cav.

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Title: Re: How to solve the melee vs ranged vs cav conflict in Battle Mode
Post by: Macropus on September 10, 2013, 01:32:33 pm
Quote from: Finuad on September 10, 2013, 11:29:32 am
I think we need to adjust the cav builds to hunt down other cav.

Lol you're gonna regret this respec so much  :D
Title: Re: How to solve the melee vs ranged vs cav conflict in Battle Mode
Post by: BlueKnight on September 11, 2013, 09:43:01 am
Team balance wouldn't be so important if winning rounds wasn't so important, which basically means that current exp system needs adjustments. I think that if basic multi was x3 and after winning it was x6 until you lose it, if your team is winning or not wouldn't be this important anymore. You could level up and progress (progression in RPGs and other games is very important feature) but you wouldn't need to carry this combo of winning streak. On the other hand the team that would have x6 (previous winners) would level up quite fast but let's be honest, leveling in crpg is slow anyway, especially when you are playing with a low-gen alt.

(click to show/hide)

Obviously upkeep would need an adjustment as new exp-system (it could have other new features for sure!) would mess with average gold-gains. Currently upkeep isn't balanced anyway so nothing new here. Ex. Heavy Lance is too expensive (just crap wpn) and longsword + HBS wouldn't suffer from the price increment. Also 1h weapons like Arabian cav sword are 2 cheap when compared to top expensive 1h swords. Upkeep needs to be rebalanced anyway.

Just what I think.
Title: Re: How to solve the melee vs ranged vs cav conflict in Battle Mode
Post by: Akynos on September 12, 2013, 03:09:04 pm
if we are to change the xp system I would go for a good old score-to-xp system. Most score most xp but same gold for every round. That however wouldn't change the team unbalance.