cRPG
cRPG => Beginner's Help and Guides => Topic started by: Tybal on August 27, 2013, 08:54:07 pm
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so i have been playing a hybrid archer for a while now and tried out several bows and noticed a somewhat extreme difference in the missile speed between bows which made me wonder, are the bigger bows really worth it ? i ve been running around with the horn bow and its hard to hit anything at far range because A) slow missile speed makes it hard to guestimate where target will be when the arrow hits and B) they are much more inaccurate.
so far i ve had much much more success with using lower bows because targets cant dodge as easy and they are more accurate to begin with. am i missing something here ? is there something else that affects missile speed except the inherent value on the bow ? i have only 142 in archery but afaik that would not increase missile speed either or does it ? i know masterwork increases the speed by a little bit but is that all there is to it ?
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Well first off lets start with this.
Whats your build as a hybrid archer?
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i dont see how your reply relates to the question of which stats affect missile speed, however i am using the 18/18 build from the solid builds thread going for a little bit 2h skill and rest to archery
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Power draw increases missile speed.
actual_shot_speed_in_m_per_s=item_shoot_speed*sqrt((min(power_draw, bow_difficulty+4)*0.12)+1.0)*1.2
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Shooting on long distance is not so easy, but it's possible to shoot ppl on really long distances. It's easier to shoot at medium and long range with 160+ wpf in archery, but you also have to remember that dmg is decreasing with distance.
Long range shooting needs a lot of practise. Happy shooting :mrgreen:
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Power draw increases missile speed.
actual_shot_speed_in_m_per_s=item_shoot_speed*sqrt((min(power_draw, bow_difficulty+4)*0.12)+1.0)*1.2
Hmmm... good to know.
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With the weaker bows, it gets to the point where shots only annoy tin cans with staggers unless you are using bodkins.
Power draw increases missile speed.
actual_shot_speed_in_m_per_s=item_shoot_speed*sqrt((min(power_draw, bow_difficulty+4)*0.12)+1.0)*1.2
I was wondering what the formula for that was.
Does shot speed get effected by rain?
Is the formula significantly different for throwing?
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Rain affect dmg, and probably missile speed also, but some dev have to confirm that
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Almost same formular for throwing but without the capping at +4 difficulty. Rain does lower shot speed afaik.
shoot_speed * sqrt((PT * 0.1) + 1.0) * 1.2
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Power draw increases missile speed.
actual_shot_speed_in_m_per_s=item_shoot_speed*sqrt((min(power_draw, bow_difficulty+4)*0.12)+1.0)*1.2
thx for that formula, for some reason i could not find this in the other threads on the forum.
i dont have anything to do with mathematics professionally, but as i understand the term after sqrt means its either power draw OR bow difficulty+4 whichever is higher ? or whichever is lower ? so would this mean for instance if i were to use a longbow with power draw 6 it would use 5+4=9 or 6 (and then the rest). so in effect is this a cap for the missile speed bonus from power draw or is it a minimum missile speed?
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thx for that formula, for some reason i could not find this in the other threads on the forum.
i dont have anything to do with mathematics professionally, but as i understand the term after sqrt means its either power draw OR bow difficulty+4 whichever is higher ? or whichever is lower ? so would this mean for instance if i were to use a longbow with power draw 6 it would use 5+4=9 or 6 (and then the rest). so in effect is this a cap for the missile speed bonus from power draw or is it a minimum missile speed?
No, the point is that your effective powerdraw skill level (used for damage calculation) cannot be more than 4 above the bow difficulty. So if you use the short bow (difficulty 1) with 6 Power Draw, the damage would calculate as if you only had 5 power draw (1 + 4).
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yeah i know that about power draw and its cap to dmg, but i thought this formula was specifically about missile speed and not about damage. or are you saying that the same cap applies for missile speed too ? so that the maximum bonus to missile speed is also capped.
EDIT: i must have missed pauls last post, now that he mentioned its a cap its clear to me.
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To answer your question Tybal, your observations are correct. Since the last patch, low tier bows have a higher missile speed than high tier bows ( prior to the patch it was the other way round ). A low tier bow will make hitting targets easier at the expense of damage.
Also low tier bows have faster draw speed, which - regardless of their accuracy value - lets you reach the "optimum accuracy window" faster than slower bows, which effectively gives them more accuracy than high tier bows at lower wpf levels, or to put it differently: If you dont have enough wpf, you wont be able to draw a big bow fast enough before your cone of fire starts enlarging.
That said, a pure archer build ( e.g. 18/24 with 8 wm and 170+ archery wpf ) can shoot a longbow just as accurately as your build is able to shoot a nomad bow, or even more accurately. However, this excellent shooting capability of such a particular build comes at the expense of almost no melee capability in terms of melee wpf and powerstrike ( as long as you are not high lvl ).
In conclusion, a skilled archer with a pure archer build will probably do better with a hard hitting bow since the chance of getting one-hit-kills with headshots is a lot bigger with a longbow instead of a nomad or horn bow. But in the end there is no wrong or right bow. I myself am using a nomad bow almost exclusively since the patch because it works really well for hybrids. You pretty much rely on getting multiple headshots to kill anything in armour but in turn are not forced to pump tons of wpf in archery in order to anything or drawing faster than a snail.
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To answer your question Tybal, your observations are correct. Since the last patch, low tier bows have a higher missile speed than high tier bows ( prior to the patch it was the other way round ). A low tier bow will make hitting targets easier at the expense of damage.
Also low tier bows have faster draw speed, which - regardless of their accuracy value - lets you reach the "optimum accuracy window" faster than slower bows, which effectively gives them more accuracy than high tier bows at lower wpf levels, or to put it differently: If you dont have enough wpf, you wont be able to draw a big bow fast enough before your cone of fire starts enlarging.
That said, a pure archer build ( e.g. 18/24 with 8 wm and 170+ archery wpf ) can shoot a longbow just as accurately as your build is able to shoot a nomad bow, or even more accurately. However, this excellent shooting capability of such a particular build comes at the expense of almost no melee capability in terms of melee wpf and powerstrike ( as long as you are not high lvl ).
In conclusion, a skilled archer with a pure archer build will probably do better with a hard hitting bow since the chance of getting one-hit-kills with headshots is a lot bigger with a longbow instead of a nomad or horn bow. But in the end there is no wrong or right bow. I myself am using a nomad bow almost exclusively since the patch because it works really well for hybrids. You pretty much rely on getting multiple headshots to kill anything in armour but in turn are not forced to pump tons of wpf in archery in order to anything or drawing faster than a snail.
What he said, if i where you i would not get annything ells then a hornbow or nomad bow. (Before the patch only hornbow was viable in my opinion but now i'm hanging more towards the nomad bow)
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Anyway I'll never change my long bow to any other bow XD
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first off thanks for all the awesome input especially XyNox!
however all this made me wonder which build/item setup would be the most viable if you wanted to go for hybrid with the goal of being able to meele effectively, not only defensively.
of course any hybrid build will never be as good in meele or ranged as a dedicated build i get that, in addition there are limitations of gold upkeep, additions in weight and the complete lack of any lp (in my case)
from that standpoint would it even make a whole lot of sense to even go for bows specifically for hybrid ? or is xbow a more solid choice for that. throwing seems to be hard to pull off since the range is quite limited.
also 1h/2h/pole/shield ?
armor weight/cost achievable ?
im not looking for a definite answer, im just curious about opinions :)
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Ive always found that an 18/21 build is best, specially with a longbow 2 packs of arrows and a broad short sword.
The build statwise looks like this at lvl 30
18 str
21 agi
6 PS
6 PD
7WM
4 ATH
159 Archery
50 1h
In all honesty a hybrid xbowmen is better, because you dont have to put points into Power Draw thus freeing up points for things like Ironflesh or Athletics.
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I'm trying a hybrid 15/24 build at the moment (at lvl 30):
5 PD
5 PS
5 ATH
8 WM
160 archery
86 1h
Using bow/tatar bow
But I don't rate it; wouldn't do again.
I'd stick to the 18/21 for hybrid (tending to archer). And agree with Sharpe, xbow is way better for hybrid option. You can get away with spending a bit less on WM too I think with an xbow build.
18/18 is a valid build, if you want to try and get away with fewer WM points to put into IF or PS. Personally I prefer more than 150WPF in bow.
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first off thanks for all the awesome input especially XyNox!
however all this made me wonder which build/item setup would be the most viable if you wanted to go for hybrid with the goal of being able to meele effectively, not only defensively.
of course any hybrid build will never be as good in meele or ranged as a dedicated build i get that, in addition there are limitations of gold upkeep, additions in weight and the complete lack of any lp (in my case)
from that standpoint would it even make a whole lot of sense to even go for bows specifically for hybrid ? or is xbow a more solid choice for that. throwing seems to be hard to pull off since the range is quite limited.
also 1h/2h/pole/shield ?
armor weight/cost achievable ?
im not looking for a definite answer, im just curious about opinions :)
What ZeSharpe said, xbow hybrid is generally a lot more cost-effective than bow hybrids. Since xbows dont need any skillpoint requirement, they have more points to put into ps, ath or wm. They also can maintain ranged efficiency with higher armor values and lower base wpf levels.
Personally I dont like xbows so I stick with bows. The problem with archer hybrids is that archery on its own already eats A LOT of wpf in order to get useful on anything other than close range. On top of that, many gameplay mechanics make melee capability harder to reach for archers than any other class.
- Armor decreases your archery wpf resulting in less drawspeed, accuracy and a bit of damage. As a hybrid, you will already have less archery wpf than usual so you cant really afford to lose any more, which means low armor weight is a must.
- Quiver weight will slow you down quite a lot at 10 kg per quiver. Even though you dont carry enough armor to survive a single hit in most cases, a pure melee with medium to high armor might run faster than you. Dropping your bow before entering melee combat is advised if you have the time to do so.
- With a lot of wpf needed for your bow and melee weapon you are basicly stuck with agi-focused builds only as you need the agi to get enough WM. Going higher than 18 str is not recommended IMO for any archer build. Without the luxury of passive HP due to str or points in IF, you will die fast.
So in the end you will have a build that is not very mobile despite having good ath due to quiver weight, not very tough due to armor restrictions and the lack of IF and STR, not the most accurate in ranged and not very fast in melee due to the need of splitting your wpf. To kill the standard, armored, pure melee with your archer hybrid build, you will probably have to put 4 times the effort into it than he has to do. If you have the skill to handle those downsides, sure go hybrid but if you are looking for more efficiency, go pure.
My build is 18/21 atm, 6 ps 6 pd 7ath 7wm 93 1h wpf and 148 archery wpf and I am using a MW arabian guard sword and a nomad bow most of the time ( arrows bodkins or tatars depending on the armor values I enounter ). With this build I wouldnt think about touching a long bow as it is way too slow and inaccurate with 148 wpf for me. I notice that my archery wpf is a bit too low for long range shots, even with fast bows but I dont want to get any less melee wpf either so I think it is as ballanced as it can get for my playstyle. The goal is 18/24 at high level of course since it is the unchallenged king of all archer builds.
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The goal is 18/24 at high level of course since it is the unchallenged king of all archer builds.
IMO best hi lvl archer bulid (pure archer) is 18/27 (i have it). As a proof here are few links to strat battles results.
http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=strategusbattlesarchive#!?page=strategusinfobattledetail&id=5037 NA defending town
http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=strategusbattlesarchive#!?page=strategusinfobattledetail&id=5024 EU defending castle
http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=strategusbattlesarchive#!?page=strategusinfobattledetail&id=4984 EU defending castle
http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=strategusbattlesarchive#!?page=strategusinfobattledetail&id=4319 EU defending castle
http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=strategusbattlesarchive#!?page=strategusinfobattleroster&id=3395 EU open field as attacker
http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=strategusbattlesarchive#!?page=strategusinfobattleroster&id=3319 EU open field as attacker
http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=strategusbattlesarchive#!?page=strategusinfobattledetail&id=4338 EU open field as defender
http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=strategusbattlesarchive#!?page=strategusinfobattledetail&id=4237 EU open field as defender