cRPG

cRPG => Beginner's Help and Guides => Topic started by: Palurgee on July 22, 2013, 12:49:04 am

Title: Weapon speed
Post by: Palurgee on July 22, 2013, 12:49:04 am
Can someone explain how weapon speed works with the conditions listed below?

Title: Re: Weapon speed
Post by: Axel Raby on July 22, 2013, 12:53:32 am
Just check this thread. There's something about swing speed and wpf. I can't help much. ;)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Weapon speed
Post by: San on July 22, 2013, 02:44:53 am
http://forum.meleegaming.com/beginner%27s-help-and-guides/weapon-attack-speed-and-proficiency-and-not-agility/25/

(click to show/hide)

1h used as a 2h typically gets a buff in reach and speed. Some get polearm stab from it though.

2h used from horseback with a shield uses 1h proficiency with nerfed stats, 2h used without shield uses 2h proficiency with its initial stats.
Title: Re: Weapon speed
Post by: MURDERTRON on July 22, 2013, 04:21:37 am
Palurgee, when you use a weapon in an alternate mode, you will use its second set of stats.  However, the website does not list those stats. but they are listed in game.  However, you might be throwing away money just to find out.  I'm still wondering what the stats are on the Persian War Axe, but I don't want to drop 4k just to find out.

At least, that goes for weapons not involving a shield.  Then follow San's advice for those.
Title: Re: Weapon speed
Post by: Elindor on July 22, 2013, 05:46:07 am
Here's a question.  The speed listed on a weapon' stats.  What does that ACTUALLY do?  We all know wpf barely does anything....is this the same with weapon speed or does weapon speed actually matter more?  And yes I've read through the megathread like 80 times in my many moons around here :)  Haven't found anything specific in there about that.
Title: Re: Weapon speed
Post by: San on July 22, 2013, 06:53:03 am
If we had more variance in wpf instead of differences between pure builds being 9 wpf for each point and % based wpf reduction that further negates wpf differences between players, wpf might be worth talking about. Effective wpf levels typically range between 110-130 for pure builds and decent armor.

In my post above, I believe the chart answers your question. A player with 140 wpf and a 98 speed weapon will swing at a similar speed to a 100 wpf player and 101 speed, for instance. It feels like 12-15 wpf is equal to a point in speed, with more beneficial effects for low base speed weapons, and mitigating benefits for high base speed weapons.

Edit:
To clarify, since you get 9 wpf or so from a point in WM and you have % based reduction of wpf based on armor, it usually takes 2WM points to experience an increase of 1 speed in medium armor (and like +.3-.4 more damage). Compared to a point in PS, which is ~+2 damage of that weapon type, it's pretty easy to see tradeoffs of these stats.
Title: Re: Weapon speed
Post by: Elindor on July 22, 2013, 09:17:37 pm
That all looks right San, so from that perspective...how important would you say is weapon speed?

If you have the 110-140 WPF or whatever, how much will a couple weapon speed (from one weapon to another) actually be evident in combat?
Title: Re: Weapon speed
Post by: San on July 23, 2013, 07:16:05 am
Quote
If you have the 110-140 WPF or whatever, how much will a couple weapon speed (from one weapon to another) actually be evident in combat?
For similar animations, I believe that the "total" weapon speed difference of 2 or more is quite noticeable. The speed difference needs to be slightly larger depending on how much longer the other weapon is. When I was using 99-100 speed weapons, I noticed that I was getting beat to the punch more often in terms of swings against those who I believed were pure builds. When I switched to a 103 speed 88 length weapon, with 130 wpf (~100 effective with armor mitigation), it of course decreased dramatically. However, pure 1h builds in light armor and 100-101 speed weapons still managed to swing at similar speeds to my own. 1h right swing also lost out against much slower weapons, but when I tried on a 15/24 with 172 wpf, it was much faster.

In general:
Every millisecond counts. You want high speed, but there is typically a cutoff point where the speed is acceptable. It makes it harder for the enemy to hit you without even better positioning, especially when the swings are nearly concurrent. It makes the weapons that were slightly too slow before (for 1h, that is around the 97-98 speed mark) to compete with users of faster weapons. If your wpf brings your weapon speed +2 above the average, 97->99, you would be able to compete in speed against any other typical 1her that doesn't have very high wpf. Less caution is needed and you can be more confident in your swings when the other player releases a swing.

There are so many different factors, it's difficult to answer your question without bringing up more factors.

- Whoever moves faster can give themselves optimal hitting angles easier. Weapon speed and higher movement go hand in hand. Moving away from an opponent's swing gives you precious milliseconds to get your own swing off.

- High damage makes it easier to swing earlier in the animation. Since the windup is only a fraction of the animation, small weapon speed differences aren't too noticeable.

- Weapon speed greatly helps the slower animations. Animations differ on their speed for windup and release. For instance, 1h right swing has a somewhat quick windup, but a poor release. Polearm stab has a pretty good release. The fast animations typically beat out the slow animations even with decent weapon speed differences, but weapon speed helps normal-speed animations win out over faster ones, and slow ones win out over medium ones, especially when different reaches are involved.

- Longer weapons at weapon length can make do with less speed. Decent speed weapons with good reach are typically more valuable than short, but fast weapons. It is why the longsword is more popular than the HBS, it already has great speed, and the weapon length makes it excel further. The lower the speed, the more one has to rely on those early hits.
Title: Re: Weapon speed
Post by: Elindor on July 23, 2013, 11:08:28 pm
Thanks for the info San.

Was curious in general, but specifically I am thinking of trying to get a +3 Two Handed Sword (97 speed), maybe trading my +3 LS for it (100 speed).

I was curious how much this would change things, I've had my hands on a few +3 Two Handed Swords but I'd need more time to really distinguish the difference in 3 speed between the two weapons.  What I -DO- like about the Two Handed Sword is the extra 4 reach, which doesn't sound like a lot but it can make quite a difference.  Damage wise, its a trade off of +1 swing dmg but -1 stab damage...

I have 150 2h wpf and wear "medium heavy" armor (rus scale).
Title: Re: Weapon speed
Post by: Phew on July 24, 2013, 05:30:18 pm
Quote from: Elindor on July 23, 2013, 11:08:28 pm
Thanks for the info San.

Was curious in general, but specifically I am thinking of trying to get a +3 Two Handed Sword (97 speed), maybe trading my +3 LS for it (100 speed).

I fought Mazrim a lot last night (he uses a +3 2h Sword), and he was able to pull off the ridiculous no-animation facehug lolstabs that Longsword is so famous for, so if you are attached to that mechanic, you will continue to enjoy it with the 2h Sword. Then again, Jaich lives off of this with his Great Sword (94 speed). 2h animations are active so early, that speed doesn't really matter unless you are trying to double-hit people (which apparently isn't your MO).

I say get a Miaodao Elindor. You'll one-shot most people, and it seems even faster than longsword since the high damage allows you to connect even earlier. Lolstab is over-rated on siege anyway.
Title: Re: Weapon speed
Post by: Elindor on July 24, 2013, 07:37:09 pm
Quote from: Phew on July 24, 2013, 05:30:18 pm
I fought Mazrim a lot last night (he uses a +3 2h Sword), and he was able to pull off the ridiculous no-animation facehub lolstabs that Longsword is so famous for, so if you are attached to that mechanic, you will continue to enjoy it with the 2h Sword. Then again, Jaich lives off of this with his Great Sword (94 speed). 2h animations are active so early, that speed doesn't really matter unless you are trying to double-hit people (which apparently isn't your MO).

I say get a Miaodao Elindor. You'll one-shot most people, and it seems even faster than longsword since the high damage allows you to connect even earlier. Lolstab is over-rated on siege anyway.

Lol...one thing to keep in mind is that Mazrim and Jaich both have like under 20 ping.  I find that 9 out of 10 players with pings under 30 or 20 are very good...probably not a coincidence.  It's obviously more than ping alone, but it definitely helps.

I love your anti-2h sentiments Phew....coincidentally mine are for 1h and polearms.  I think thats basically how it works...everyone hates the class they aren't - and everyone hates archers (I think even archers hate themselves secretly inside they watch the crying game and touch themselves)  :mrgreen:

Anyhow yeah Miaodao is OP, no question...most agree on that.  I already look like a flavor of the month dickwiggler using the LS (although I've had mine for a long long time, through many buffs/nerfs and back again).  Switching to the all-to-common-these-days Miaodao would hurt my soul :)
Title: Re: Weapon speed
Post by: Phew on July 24, 2013, 08:29:15 pm
Quote from: Elindor on July 24, 2013, 07:37:09 pm
Lol...one thing to keep in mind is that Mazrim and Jaich both have like under 20 ping.  I find that 9 out of 10 players with pings under 30 or 20 are very good...probably not a coincidence.  It's obviously more than ping alone, but it definitely helps.

I love your anti-2h sentiments Phew....coincidentally mine are for 1h and polearms.  I think thats basically how it works...everyone hates the class they aren't - and everyone hates archers (I think even archers hate themselves secretly inside they watch the crying game and touch themselves)  :mrgreen:

There are plenty of good players with normal to high ping, but you are right, the guys where you are like "how the hell did he do that" ALWAYS have <20 ping. If you consider that the average gamer's reaction time is on the order of 200ms, having a ~40ms ping advantage on someone is akin to going from average reaction time to superhuman reaction time:

http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/stats.php

The rare guys that have superhuman reaction time coupled with low ping, well no one else has a chance.