cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Gudari on July 14, 2013, 10:43:41 pm

Title: Unfair advantages to throwing?
Post by: Gudari on July 14, 2013, 10:43:41 pm
I don't want to start a war against thrower players and claim their class should be nerfed. Really. But I'm going to say why I feel throwing weapons are (that's what I feel) generally overpowered.

I'm fine with their damage or accuracy. I know there's a team that takes care of the general balance of the game and fixes these things and does it well. It's about other things that I find extrange.

First of all I play 90% of the time mixed ranged (xbow or hunting xbow) and 1 handed- shield. I have seen how most xbows become 2-slots (hunting being the only 1-slot) and that most 2-h or polearms takes 2 (even 3) slots. At the same time ALL throwing weapons takes a single slot so you are allowed to carry four stacks of them: you can carry with you 16 throwing spears, 12 jarids, 12 throwing axes, 32 shurikens (just to point out few examples). This is not realistic or historical at all, and can be a pain for the rest of the players (a xbowman carries 24 spending 4 slots too). It have great impact on the game. The balance may require that many throwing uses 2-slots so people don't abuse them.

Another fact I find annoying is the weigh of throwing weapons (average 3) compared to bolts: the bag of bolts weights 6 and the archer's arrows 10 ( :?:). It doesn't feel right and don't know what's the reason behind this.

Well, this is not even a suggestion for changes. I was just pointing some facts that I don't understand (and I've been thinking for a while to find a reason), and annoys me. So I'd be happy if someone just tell me the reason for that advantages to throwing and not simply blame on me.

And thanks in advance
Title: Re: Unfair advantages to throwing?
Post by: Paul on July 14, 2013, 10:45:29 pm
In before Smooth ranting about how overpowered throwing is for a long time and everyone's just too stupid to see it.
Title: Re: Unfair advantages to throwing?
Post by: Moncho on July 14, 2013, 10:48:59 pm
Throwing op? Is this 2010?
Title: Re: Unfair advantages to throwing?
Post by: Vodner on July 14, 2013, 11:05:14 pm
Quote
It have great impact on the game. The balance may require that many throwing uses 2-slots so people don't abuse them.
Dedicated throwing is already pretty mediocre. Throwing serves a nice niche, where a melee player can sacrifice some skillpoints for limited ranged capabilities. Making throwing weapons two slots would just mean that almost nobody would use them. What player would sacrifice four skill points and 80-100 WPF just so he can toss two or three fairly slow projectiles?
Title: Re: Unfair advantages to throwing?
Post by: sF_Guardian on July 14, 2013, 11:05:57 pm
WHAT


THE


FUCK


DID


I


JUST


READ


????
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Unfair advantages to throwing?
Post by: Gudari on July 14, 2013, 11:08:52 pm
 :oops: I'm not saying they are exactly overpowered. It is more that I can't understand some unbalanced facts about throwing

Dedicated throwing is already pretty mediocre. Throwing serves a nice niche, where a melee player can sacrifice some skillpoints for limited ranged capabilities. Making throwing weapons two slots would just mean that almost nobody would use them.

Ok. that's good point, but still, I think something could be done to limit number of bags people carries. Specially for "dedicated" throwers.
Title: Re: Unfair advantages to throwing?
Post by: sF_Guardian on July 14, 2013, 11:11:06 pm
The accuracy and missile speed of throwing sucks ass.
On top of that you have a very limited amounth of ammunition
and need both lots of skillpoints and wpf to use thrwoing effectively.

I don't see anything op in there.
Title: Re: Unfair advantages to throwing?
Post by: Vodner on July 14, 2013, 11:15:59 pm
Quote
Ok. that's good point, but still, I think something could be done to limit number of bags people carries. Specially for "dedicated" throwers.
Why? Dedicated throwing is already a worse class than dedicated archer.
Title: Re: Unfair advantages to throwing?
Post by: Relit on July 14, 2013, 11:18:00 pm
Dedicated throwers are pretty rare. I am not sure how you could really restrict them without hurting the hybrids. Many of my clan-mates are 1h-shielder/throwers, I would hate to see something effect them when it is so quintessential to us.

Maybe a very slight increase to weight but I am unsure how much this would really effect dedicated throwers.
Title: Re: Unfair advantages to throwing?
Post by: F i n on July 14, 2013, 11:49:29 pm
For me it feels wrong that shooting crossbows doesnt require any skillpoints - while throwing a stupid piece of wood with an iron head does.



I think the balance is given by limited total Ammo and horrible accuracy + need for skilling to actually do damage / use equipment.

If you now continue nerfing the ammount of ammo carried or the weight of those weapons or slots - you'll achieve nothing but to kill one of the basic classes - and with it the diversity of this wonderful mod.

Title: Re: Unfair advantages to throwing?
Post by: Miwiw on July 14, 2013, 11:55:06 pm
To carry 12 throwing axes... that's hardly worth it. A dedicated thrower can throw those 12... after that they are either fucked and still have 1 axe for melee or they carry 1 less stack and take a real weapon with them. with 1h you lose 1 stack, with 2h or pole you lose 2 stacks, same with 1h/shield.
and a dedicated thrower is no use in Strat, and rather difficult to play anywhere else. Plus accuracy of any other ranged is much better than a thrower's. :)

Simple reason for the weight. Throwers count 1) as infantry and 2) archers are not meant to kite (as most inf says) and 3) most throwers prolly also got another melee weapon with them.
Title: Re: Unfair advantages to throwing?
Post by: Vermilion on July 15, 2013, 12:06:49 am
At the same time ALL throwing weapons takes a single slot so you are allowed to carry four stacks of them: you can carry with you 16 throwing spears, 12 jarids, 12 throwing axes, 32 shurikens (just to point out few examples). This is not realistic or historical at all, and can be a pain for the rest of the players (a xbowman carries 24 spending 4 slots too). It have great impact on the game. The balance may require that many throwing uses 2-slots so people don't abuse them.

Archery - Most bows 1 slots (rus and long are 2), all arrow types are 1 slot and the introduction of 0 slot 1h weapons to allow ranged to carry a melee weapon.

So, taking the long bow with bodkins as an example.. You get bow, 2 sets of bodkins (30, more when loomed) and a 1h weapon
Or you could go pure archery with the horn bow and have.. bow and 3 sets of bodkins (45, more when loomed)

X-bow - Most are 2 slots, bolts are 1 slot and once again the introduction of 0 slot 1h weapons to allow ranged to carry a melee weapon.

So, any x-bow, 2 sets of bolts (24 for steel bolts) and a 1h melee weapon.

Less bolts than archery but the reload time mean you get through less. This is balanced out by the additional power the X-bow holds over the equivalent bow, you can hold your shots for a long period of time, and have the bolt ready to release (once the bolt is drawn into the X-bow it remains there till shot). Finally and Maybe most importantly x-bow only requires wpf

Throwing - Majority 1 slot, a few low end are 0 slots.

Throwing daggers are low damage but you can have up to 32 (only 2 more than an archer with a melee weapon)
Thowing spears/throwing axes are heavy damage but can only carry 16 (much less than an heavy x-bow/arbalest with steel bolts)

Once throwing gets mixed with melee it becomes more complicated.. This is because throwing requires power throw and WPF (and unlike archery it results is a massive loss in ammo, no matter which weapon you use, throwing and melee weapon that is).

This means most people go mainly for melee and put a couple points on throwing just to throw on their way into melee. Personally I've found this to be a waste of time and prefer to have to characters (1 melee and 1 pure throwing).

I think especially with the recent buff to archery (archers don't complain have you seen how many more there are now?? I've even started using my archery alt again) and the not so recent nerf to heavy throwing axes.. The devs have done a great job in making these 3 classes as usable as possible without 1 being clearly superior to the others, or 1 inferior.

Finally, for your realism argument I'm not even going to bother having a debate as chadz has clearly stated the dev team are more interested in making a fun playable game than a realistic simulator .

(I have a throwing alt, archer alt and an x-bow alt)
Title: Re: Unfair advantages to throwing?
Post by: Nightmare798 on July 15, 2013, 05:17:29 pm
I don't want to start a war against thrower players and claim their class should be nerfed. Really. But I'm going to say why I feel throwing weapons are (that's what I feel) generally overpowered.

I'm fine with their damage or accuracy. I know there's a team that takes care of the general balance of the game and fixes these things and does it well. It's about other things that I find extrange.

First of all I play 90% of the time mixed ranged (xbow or hunting xbow) and 1 handed- shield. I have seen how most xbows become 2-slots (hunting being the only 1-slot) and that most 2-h or polearms takes 2 (even 3) slots. At the same time ALL throwing weapons takes a single slot so you are allowed to carry four stacks of them: you can carry with you 16 throwing spears, 12 jarids, 12 throwing axes, 32 shurikens (just to point out few examples). This is not realistic or historical at all, and can be a pain for the rest of the players (a xbowman carries 24 spending 4 slots too). It have great impact on the game. The balance may require that many throwing uses 2-slots so people don't abuse them.

Another fact I find annoying is the weigh of throwing weapons (average 3) compared to bolts: the bag of bolts weights 6 and the archer's arrows 10 ( :?:). It doesn't feel right and don't know what's the reason behind this.

Well, this is not even a suggestion for changes. I was just pointing some facts that I don't understand (and I've been thinking for a while to find a reason), and annoys me. So I'd be happy if someone just tell me the reason for that advantages to throwing and not simply blame on me.

And thanks in advance

you seem to forget the fact that throwing has extremely slow missile speed [at least concerning axes] and you can miss even at point blank range. they are also hugely penalized for using shield [just try to take training shield and franciscas and count throws per second].

xbows have 2 slots because strongest one have about 80 damage without looming, which equals one shotting anything that doesnt have heavy armor, whereas with throwing, [unless you have throwing lances] you have great chance that even after hitting 2 or 3 times, enemy will still be standing.
Title: Re: Unfair advantages to throwing?
Post by: ThePoopy on July 15, 2013, 06:00:43 pm
thrower - 1 ensured kill/stack

arbalest - 1 kill/bolt time limited

archer - pew pew pew
Title: Re: Unfair advantages to throwing?
Post by: Necrorave on July 15, 2013, 07:27:39 pm
People arguing that throwing is weaker than other ranged are usually not considering other facts about throwing...

To start you can throw many projectiles in a small time span, while xbows have a reload time in which they must stand still.

Throwing has the lowest accuracy decrease while moving and allows them to still be somewhat accurate while mobile.

More damage than a bow (For the most part) but less than an xbow.  (To fill the gap between them while at the same time creating a Medium/close ranged attack.)

The ability for a thrower to go melee in a split second instead of changing weapons is a huuuge advantage.  Whether or not you are skilled in melee with that weapon is fairly null.

1h throwing weapons such as the axes and hammers are decent melee weapons to begin with.

I can agree that the weight is a bit weird and does not seem to make sense.  Although, there is a reason that it is that way and should remain that way.

EDIT: This is pure speculation considering I have not played a fulled gen of Throwing myself.  Just reminding people that their are other facts about throwing than the obvious.
Title: Re: Unfair advantages to throwing?
Post by: Molly on July 15, 2013, 07:46:53 pm
(click to show/hide)
This rant just proves that you have no idea about throwing. Same as the OP...
Title: Re: Unfair advantages to throwing?
Post by: Berserkadin on July 15, 2013, 07:48:01 pm
Cmp, can't you force OP and Necrovave to play 1 gen of throwing before being able to play any other class?
Title: Re: Unfair advantages to throwing?
Post by: Necrorave on July 15, 2013, 07:52:14 pm
Cmp, can't you force OP and Necrorave to play 1 gen of throwing before being able to play any other class?

Fair enough.  I never did enjoy throwing so this was all speculation.  Not going to argue because you are right.  I never did play throwing all the way through a full gen.  (Maybe like level 25ish lol)

I was just stating that I find people never look at the other facts about throwing.  I am not siding with either side of this argument.

PS: Is it really that hard to spell my name right?  Everyone messes it up  :shock:
Title: Re: Unfair advantages to throwing?
Post by: Turboflex on July 15, 2013, 09:07:03 pm
In before Smooth ranting about how overpowered throwing is for a long time and everyone's just too stupid to see it.

It is stronger than most people realize.
Title: Re: Unfair advantages to throwing?
Post by: Teeth on July 16, 2013, 01:11:33 am
All I know is that whenever I meet a thrower on the battlefield I turn tail and run. If Mendro or Alpson joins the server I can basically stop playing. Throwing hits like a truck and they rarely seem to miss me.
Title: Re: Unfair advantages to throwing?
Post by: Necrorave on July 16, 2013, 02:41:20 am
All I know is that whenever I meet a thrower on the battlefield I turn tail and run. If Mendro or Alpson joins the server I can basically stop playing. Throwing hits like a truck and they rarely seem to miss me.

Now, I can relate.  I may not run away as much although I do tend to target them first because they are the biggest threat to a shielder (In my opinion)

I tend to either kill them first or stay away from them.

I never found them deadly though.  They have killed countless amounts of my shields, although I do not get killed by throwing as often as other classes personally.
Title: Re: Unfair advantages to throwing?
Post by: Nightmare798 on July 16, 2013, 01:33:45 pm
People arguing that throwing is weaker than other ranged are usually not considering other facts about throwing...

To start you can throw many projectiles in a small time span, while xbows have a reload time in which they must stand still.

Throwing has the lowest accuracy decrease while moving and allows them to still be somewhat accurate while mobile.

More damage than a bow (For the most part) but less than an xbow.  (To fill the gap between them while at the same time creating a Medium/close ranged attack.)

The ability for a thrower to go melee in a split second instead of changing weapons is a huuuge advantage.  Whether or not you are skilled in melee with that weapon is fairly null.

1h throwing weapons such as the axes and hammers are decent melee weapons to begin with.

I can agree that the weight is a bit weird and does not seem to make sense.  Although, there is a reason that it is that way and should remain that way.

EDIT: This is pure speculation considering I have not played a fulled gen of Throwing myself.  Just reminding people that their are other facts about throwing than the obvious.

you got it totally wrong, throwing is as slow as archery, you have lower accuracy, missile speed and almost any thrower uses dedicated 1h [or 2h] weapon in melee, as would any archer and xbowman, because throwing weapons in melee just plain suck [unless you have 7 athletics and can face hug like a pro in which case you have slight chance to beat a dedicated 1h/shielder or ther thrower].
accuracy when running is totally shit and you wont hit unless your target is 4 feet away from you and not moving. more damage with thrown is true against archers, but archers have much higher accuracy and can loom both their bow and arrows.
Title: Re: Unfair advantages to throwing?
Post by: Strudog on July 16, 2013, 02:08:38 pm
I survived 2 throwing lances to my stomach (had 10% health left after these 2) the other day.  Yeah, throwing is really overpowered.

The guy just needs 3 out of his 4 throwing lances to finish one guy off, thats INSANE. 


Dude, the shit you smoke is really shit.

Damage on throwing lances vary a lot, sometimes they will 1 shot me, sometimes they will take 1% of my health, its really weird, but i fear throwers a lot, but they are by no means OP
Title: Re: Unfair advantages to throwing?
Post by: Rebelyell on July 16, 2013, 04:00:04 pm
lances suck
h axes suck to
imo best are spears jarids and war dart that are amazing!

but thrower are far from op cuz most of the time they are able to kill max 3-4 peps if they do really good
because ammo is really limited
Title: Re: Unfair advantages to throwing?
Post by: Daunt_Flockula on July 16, 2013, 05:38:10 pm
For some reason that is still beyond my ken, they have even removed jump throwing throwing.

I don't think anything else needs to be done about throwing.
Title: Re: Unfair advantages to throwing?
Post by: Phew on July 16, 2013, 07:07:03 pm
Is this is call to nerf dedicated throwers? I can count the number of dedicated throwing mains on NA with 1 hand. It's a class that excels in exactly two circumstances (anti-cav and medium range skirmishing), and only until they exhaust their 4-16 ammo.
Title: Re: Unfair advantages to throwing?
Post by: Molly on July 16, 2013, 07:13:47 pm
EU has a working jump-throwing. cmp brought it back.
Title: Re: Unfair advantages to throwing?
Post by: Turboflex on July 16, 2013, 07:27:32 pm
Is this is call to nerf dedicated throwers? I can count the number of dedicated throwing mains on NA with 1 hand. It's a class that excels in exactly two circumstances (anti-cav and medium range skirmishing), and only until they exhaust their 4-16 ammo.

Yeah I don't get it. Dedicated thrower is very weak. Even Artie who is probably the only really good one rarely tops kill charts.
Title: Re: Unfair advantages to throwing?
Post by: Vodner on July 16, 2013, 08:00:11 pm
Damage on throwing lances vary a lot, sometimes they will 1 shot me, sometimes they will take 1% of my health, its really weird, but i fear throwers a lot, but they are by no means OP
Due to the slow projectile speed, throwing is very sensitive to speed bonus. The damage difference between a thrower hitting a victim when they are running at each other is much higher than if they are both moving away from each other (so be careful chasing throwers).
Title: Re: Unfair advantages to throwing?
Post by: Turboflex on July 16, 2013, 08:50:24 pm
for throwing, the thrower's movement speed doesn't factor into speed bonus, only the target's.
Title: Re: Unfair advantages to throwing?
Post by: Vodner on July 16, 2013, 09:03:11 pm
for throwing, the thrower's movement speed doesn't factor into speed bonus, only the target's.
This was fixed a little while back. This is one of the reasons HX/HA can deal pretty deadly damage now.