cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Kevin.G on July 07, 2013, 07:15:31 pm

Title: why the Military Hammer is expensiver than Military Cleaver?
Post by: Kevin.G on July 07, 2013, 07:15:31 pm
Military Hammer
weapon length: 80
weight: 2.3
difficulty: 13
speed rating: 94
weapon length: 80
thrust damage: 0 pierce
swing damage: 28 blunt
slots: 1
Knockdown
Secondary Mode
price:6536
---------------------

Military Cleaver
weapon length: 92
weight: 2.2
difficulty: 14
speed rating: 96
weapon length: 92
thrust damage: 0 pierce
swing damage: 35 cut
slots: 1
price:5655

compare with the Military Cleaver, the Military Hammer is shorter, slower, heavier,less damage(don't tell me 35cut is less than 28 blunt or pierce), and after 3looms, it's speed does not increase, and the weight become heavier, only the Knockdown is better, which is barely happen.
so, as the topic, why the Military Hammer is expensiver than Military Cleaver? THX for your answer.
Title: Re: why the Military Hammer is expensiver than Military Cleaver?
Post by: Haboe on July 07, 2013, 07:20:18 pm
Does more damage (yes it does to heavy armor)
And most important its knockdown. knockdown beign a free second hit.
Title: Re: why the Military Hammer is expensiver than Military Cleaver?
Post by: sF_Guardian on July 07, 2013, 07:22:06 pm
It does more consistant damage and has a good knockdown chance depending on your build and other stuff.
The price is justified.
Title: Re: why the Military Hammer is expensiver than Military Cleaver?
Post by: Kevin.G on July 07, 2013, 07:24:35 pm
how heavy armor can make the 35 cut damage less than 28 blunt?
Title: Re: why the Military Hammer is expensiver than Military Cleaver?
Post by: Man of Steel on July 07, 2013, 07:28:45 pm
Knockdown gives one free hit :D
Title: Re: why the Military Hammer is expensiver than Military Cleaver?
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on July 07, 2013, 07:34:41 pm
the Military Hammer is ... heavier ... and after 3looms ... the weight become heavier.

More weight is good for melee weapons, especially those with knockdown. If your melee weapon weighs more, you have less of a chance to get stuck recovering after you swing into an enemy block. The extra weight of a melee weapon is small enough that it doesn't really slow down your running speed that much. The formula that gives you a % chance of knockdown uses the weapon weight, so a heavier weapon will knock down a target more often.

Quote
less damage(don't tell me 35cut is less than 28 blunt or pierce)

35 cut is less than 28 blunt or pierce when you are facing targets with a lot of armor. Sorry! Cut damage is reduced against heavy armor. Blunt and pierce damage almost completely ignore armor value. Cut is better against lower armor targets though, since cut weapons generally do more damage to start with.

I like both weapons and I think their pricing is fair.
Title: Re: why the Military Hammer is expensiver than Military Cleaver?
Post by: Falka on July 07, 2013, 07:39:51 pm
only the Knockdown is better, which is barely happen.

 :shock:                :lol: :lol: :lol:

Quote
less damage(don't tell me 35cut is less than 28 blunt or pierce)

Against really heavy armors (around 70 and more body armor) cut weapons don't work. I have 9 PS and arabian cavalry sword with 36 cut dmg glances quite a lot in strat battles against guys with mw milanese plate and gauntlets.
Title: Re: why the Military Hammer is expensiver than Military Cleaver?
Post by: Taser on July 07, 2013, 07:49:46 pm
I love the military cleaver and have one mw'd. But don't tell me that the military cleaver is better than the military hammer vs heavily armored opponents. I have married a military cleaver and in strat battles I always use pierce or blunt weapons before I touch any cut weapon even if the military cleaver is there.

And the knockdown barely occurs? Hah.

Try out a mw military cleaver and a mw military hammer and see which one you really like better. I'd daresay you'd be just fine with the military hammer.
Title: Re: why the Military Hammer is expensiver than Military Cleaver?
Post by: //saxon on July 07, 2013, 08:10:27 pm
only the Knockdown is better, which is barely happen.
it happens every 1 in 3 hits or something very often tbh.
Title: Re: why the Military Hammer is expensiver than Military Cleaver?
Post by: Perverz on July 07, 2013, 08:15:30 pm
my two fav 1h weapons!!!!!!!!!!!
hammer have great blunt dmg and cleaver is great against anyone except cans
Title: Re: why the Military Hammer is expensiver than Military Cleaver?
Post by: Turboflex on July 07, 2013, 09:04:47 pm
mcleaver is weird. great stats but always seems like an awkward weapon when I use it.
Title: Re: why the Military Hammer is expensiver than Military Cleaver?
Post by: Taser on July 07, 2013, 09:05:53 pm
mcleaver is weird. great stats but always seems like an awkward weapon when I use it.

Probably one of my wife's inbred cousins. Sorry you have to put up with that.
Title: Re: why the Military Hammer is expensiver than Military Cleaver?
Post by: Rebelyell on July 07, 2013, 09:18:19 pm
op weapon with op knockdown

knock a shit out of the knockdown in that game!
Title: Re: why the Military Hammer is expensiver than Military Cleaver?
Post by: Kafein on July 07, 2013, 09:25:51 pm
Knockdown matters, but the cleaver is definitely better for fighting the fastest players.
Title: Re: why the Military Hammer is expensiver than Military Cleaver?
Post by: Algarn on July 07, 2013, 09:40:58 pm
the military hammer is balanced : quite long , high damages to armors, and decent speed . Explains its price !
Title: Re: why the Military Hammer is expensiver than Military Cleaver?
Post by: Ronin on July 08, 2013, 02:08:34 pm
Then why people still choose military hammer over military cleaver in strat battles?
Title: Re: why the Military Hammer is expensiver than Military Cleaver?
Post by: Algarn on July 08, 2013, 03:25:48 pm
If everyone has high armor , you need pierce/blunt to kill enemies .
Title: Re: why the Military Hammer is expensiver than Military Cleaver?
Post by: Phew on July 09, 2013, 02:17:40 pm
I've used +3 versions of each for at least 2 generations apiece. They are two of the most effective 1h weapons. Knockdown rate on Military Hammer is absurd, and it never takes more than 5 kills to kill anyone. Although now that the Spathovaklion is 99 speed, it has basically made the Military Hammer obsolete (along with every other blunt 1h except warhammer).
Title: Re: why the Military Hammer is expensiver than Military Cleaver?
Post by: Falka on July 09, 2013, 05:17:15 pm
Although now that the Spathovaklion is 99 speed, it has basically made the Military Hammer obsolete (along with every other blunt 1h except warhammer).

I prefer Iberian mace and MIlitary hammer over Spathovakion, mostly for the sake of look but still :P Though I have to admit speed of Spathovaklion seems weird.

Quote
Spathovaklion
weight: 2
speed rating: 99
weapon length: 75

Quote
Iberian Mace
weight: 2
speed rating: 97
weapon length: 71

Eh? Longer weapon should be slower than shorter one, don't u think?
Title: Re: why the Military Hammer is expensiver than Military Cleaver?
Post by: Eddy on July 09, 2013, 05:20:56 pm
Spathovaklion got no knockdown thus the 2 speeds are justified in my opionon.
Edit: Damn it it had no knockdown now it has sorry :S
Title: Re: why the Military Hammer is expensiver than Military Cleaver?
Post by: Falka on July 09, 2013, 05:22:14 pm
Spathovaklion got no knockdown thus the 2 speeds are justified in my opionon.

Not true, it has knockdown, like almost all blunt weapons.
Title: Re: why the Military Hammer is expensiver than Military Cleaver?
Post by: Turboflex on July 09, 2013, 05:33:47 pm
I think they should remove knockdown and up the damage a bit and balance it more with picks than maces/hammers. It would be a bit more unique then.
Title: Re: why the Military Hammer is expensiver than Military Cleaver?
Post by: Phew on July 09, 2013, 06:21:35 pm
I think they should remove knockdown and up the damage a bit and balance it more with picks than maces/hammers. It would be a bit more unique then.

Good idea. A lot of people would use a pick, but don't want to look like a coal miner. A Spathovaklion with no knockdown but pick-like stats would be an interesting niche. With the current stats, it's a spammable knockdown machine with good reach, so pretty OP.
Title: Re: why the Military Hammer is expensiver than Military Cleaver?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on July 09, 2013, 07:39:10 pm
Kevin.G I'd suggest learning about the mod before making suggestions to improve it.  If you didn't know that adding weight to a weapon can be beneficial in certain circumstances, then you shouldn't be posting suggestions, you should be in the beginners section of the forum and asking questions.

It reminds me of the people who just start a new game and clearly haven't even checked out the options (aka to see the keyboard bindings) because they join the server and their name is "Player".
Title: Re: why the Military Hammer is expensiver than Military Cleaver?
Post by: Turboflex on July 09, 2013, 08:10:17 pm
Good idea. A lot of people would use a pick, but don't want to look like a coal miner. A Spathovaklion with no knockdown but pick-like stats would be an interesting niche. With the current stats, it's a spammable knockdown machine with good reach, so pretty OP.

Knockdown is kind of lame to be honest and I say this as someone who is a big fan of abusing it in strategus. Not very thrilled with random "stuns" like that in game. It should really be limited to big, slow and heavy weapons like the m.hammer, iron mace, and w.hammer. The 98 speed maces are borderline but the the flanged mace and spatho are definitely on the wrong side of the acceptability line for knockdown spam, they are light, fast 2.0 lightweights.

As you said I think it would be more interesting if they occupied a niche of non-knockdown blunt, up the damage a bit so they don't crutch knockdown spam, and they compete with pierce picks as can-openers.
Title: Re: why the Military Hammer is expensiver than Military Cleaver?
Post by: Phew on July 09, 2013, 11:12:23 pm
The Broad 1H Axe secondary mode (31p at +3) is my favorite choice for can opening now, since that's nearly the damage of a military pick with more reach. And it doesn't look like a mining implement. Although it seems to inexplicably glance more frequently in secondary mode than primary.
Title: Re: why the Military Hammer is expensiver than Military Cleaver?
Post by: Taser on July 09, 2013, 11:35:29 pm
The Broad 1H Axe secondary mode (31p at +3) is my favorite choice for can opening now, since that's nearly the damage of a military pick with more reach. And it doesn't look like a mining implement. Although it seems to inexplicably glance more frequently in secondary mode than primary.

Yeah I've been thinking about using that as a backup or new primary weapon just to have the ability of good cutting power/shield breaking ability along with awesome pierce for suits of armor. Its a beautiful mix.