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Strategus => Strategus General Discussion => Topic started by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on June 04, 2013, 05:43:53 am

Title: How To Fix Strat's Economy
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on June 04, 2013, 05:43:53 am
Keeping my post short because everyone on these forums has the attention span of a gnat if you start typing a lot.

Simple suggestion, nothing earth shattering.

We make trading somewhere between 1/2 to 1/5 of how profitable it is now. Then we re-introduce fief rents/taxes to Strategus as they were in Mount and Blade. I believe this could fix two big Strategus problems at once. First, we can hopefully nerf the stupidly huge returns on trading in the process (my faction has traders that have literally brought back millions of gold from 300-man armies before after just a little trading.)

Second, we give factions more reasons to want fiefs. As the game is currently, fiefs have very very little strategic value and most people would give up a fief without a second thought rather than fight over it if they thought it wasn't a fief that would serve them well in battles.

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Title: Re: How To Fix Strat's Economy
Post by: Keshian on June 04, 2013, 06:30:46 am
Quote from an earlier thread:

The gold-to-troops ratio is wayyyy out of whack for this strategus. 

In strat 1 both gold and troops were too easy to obtain - made for some fun massive fights of 100K+ but it was also wrong. 

Strat 2 had a good balance of troops to gold with most armies even towards the end having middle class armor like tunic over mails for most of their troops and a rare set of large warhorse because arming a knight was expensive.

But devs got the idea in strat 3 that trading empires would be fun.  The movement rate was so slow on strategus then and crafting so boring that gold production was reasonable but beyond belief dull to the point entire clans quit the game.

So strat 4 trading beame quicker with no crafting and significantly faster movement on the strategus map and could be started right away because people "voted" for fiefs (really stupid and unfun idea, attacking ai fiefs was actually a  lot of fun with peasant gear).  But instead of crafting they replaced it with prosperity that people could start maxing out from day 1 (again voting), which made S&D inevitably huge after only a month or two of playing.

With the current setup traders can move 20-40K goods a week from their various fiefs in their faction and make millions.  We need to change this now and seriously consider a strategus wipe with a more balanced economy (this would also fix the leftovers of an running dupe gear bug for a month whose gear was kept and used or sold).

Solutions:

Prosperity provides decreasing levels of return like price where the first bits of prosperity cost 1 production point (PP) and after the first 100 costs 2 then 4 then 8 etc.  so it maxes out pretty quickly for what is effectively worth it like price.

Trade bonus maxes out pretty quickly (this would also fix some of the imbalances for factions on the border with eu/na making a lot more gold than the other factions) at 300% or 250%, which would make gold production slower.

Shift the price breakdowns on items so that higher end items are closer to double what they are now and lower end items half what they are now with the middle stuff staying the same.  e.g right now choice is between buying 100 black armor or 200 sarranid guard armor or 400 cavalry robes.  Should be 50 black armor or 200 sarranid guard armor or 800 cavalry robes, which makes buying more medium to low end armors the way to go.  Making battles far more dynamic.

Fix the 10,000 + crate bug showing as 0 crates already its been months now



Fixing the gold economy would also shift away from making heavy cavalry players and strength builds being far and away the most effective and easy builds on strategus because of the large amount of plate for melee and the durability of wearing plate on an armored triple loomed horse (which also long overdue for a nerf since they over-buffed it months ago).  this is much like archery was OP ion strategus 1, and it got nerfed for 3 years straight.  Soooo many people have switched to having enough riding on an armored horse with a strength build, which should be indicative of the huge imbalance the current economy and horse buff has caused.
Title: Re: How To Fix Strat's Economy
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on June 04, 2013, 06:31:14 am
how adorable kesh and i are working together to improve what we love

its like a soap opera fairy tale
Title: Re: How To Fix Strat's Economy
Post by: Keshian on June 04, 2013, 06:40:10 am
how adorable kesh and i are working together to improve what we love

its like a soap opera fairy tale

lol

Also:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: How To Fix Strat's Economy
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on June 04, 2013, 06:42:27 am
You're tempting me to go back to 18-18 shielder infantry just so I can prove that I will still out-do all your mercenaries in battles.
Title: Re: How To Fix Strat's Economy
Post by: Keshian on June 04, 2013, 06:45:06 am
You're tempting me to go back to 18-18 shielder infantry just so I can prove that I will still out-do all your mercenaries in battles.

Except gamechanger and I?  Both without a triple-loomed warhorse.

http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesparticipated#!?page=battledetail&id=3863 (http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesparticipated#!?page=battledetail&id=3863)

back on topic - less gold = more fun battles and more diversity in strat battles with a greater dynamic of egar effecting results in large wars and sieges and sieges becoming far less repetitive.

Title: Re: How To Fix Strat's Economy
Post by: Corsair831 on June 04, 2013, 09:31:27 pm
i second (third?) nerfing economy in strategus

As of current tickets are worth a hell of a lot more than equipment, they really should nerf the hell out of that gold !

I'd personally rather everyone be fighting in ~~ 10 weight armour (light kuyaks, chainmail, etc), as their most economically useful armour ...

as of current full plate is the most economically useful ... Not good :D
Title: Re: How To Fix Strat's Economy
Post by: bagge on June 04, 2013, 09:41:50 pm
Yeah shooting these tincans and getting bumped for 50% by the war horses is getting old :P
Title: Re: How To Fix Strat's Economy
Post by: Taser on June 04, 2013, 09:49:37 pm
Yeah shooting these tincans and getting bumped for 50% by the war horses is getting old :P

That's why a lot of people are xbowmen for strat rather than bowmen since xbows can get through the plate easier. So basically strat is nerfing archers without actually making it clear that its nerfing archers.
Title: Re: How To Fix Strat's Economy
Post by: Lt_Anders on June 04, 2013, 10:36:01 pm
That's why a lot of people are xbowmen for strat rather than bowmen since xbows can get through the plate easier. So basically strat is nerfing archers without actually making it clear that its nerfing archers, and it buffs lots of cavalry.

Fixed.
Title: Re: How To Fix Strat's Economy
Post by: Sparvico on June 05, 2013, 01:14:57 am
Quote from an earlier thread:

The gold-to-troops ratio is wayyyy out of whack for this strategus. 

In strat 1 both gold and troops were too easy to obtain - made for some fun massive fights of 100K+ but it was also wrong. 

Strat 2 had a good balance of troops to gold with most armies even towards the end having middle class armor like tunic over mails for most of their troops and a rare set of large warhorse because arming a knight was expensive.

But devs got the idea in strat 3 that trading empires would be fun.  The movement rate was so slow on strategus then and crafting so boring that gold production was reasonable but beyond belief dull to the point entire clans quit the game.

So strat 4 trading beame quicker with no crafting and significantly faster movement on the strategus map and could be started right away because people "voted" for fiefs (really stupid and unfun idea, attacking ai fiefs was actually a  lot of fun with peasant gear).  But instead of crafting they replaced it with prosperity that people could start maxing out from day 1 (again voting), which made S&D inevitably huge after only a month or two of playing.

With the current setup traders can move 20-40K goods a week from their various fiefs in their faction and make millions.  We need to change this now and seriously consider a strategus wipe with a more balanced economy (this would also fix the leftovers of an running dupe gear bug for a month whose gear was kept and used or sold).

Solutions:

Prosperity provides decreasing levels of return like price where the first bits of prosperity cost 1 production point (PP) and after the first 100 costs 2 then 4 then 8 etc.  so it maxes out pretty quickly for what is effectively worth it like price.

Trade bonus maxes out pretty quickly (this would also fix some of the imbalances for factions on the border with eu/na making a lot more gold than the other factions) at 300% or 250%, which would make gold production slower.

Shift the price breakdowns on items so that higher end items are closer to double what they are now and lower end items half what they are now with the middle stuff staying the same.  e.g right now choice is between buying 100 black armor or 200 sarranid guard armor or 400 cavalry robes.  Should be 50 black armor or 200 sarranid guard armor or 800 cavalry robes, which makes buying more medium to low end armors the way to go.  Making battles far more dynamic.

Fix the 10,000 + crate bug showing as 0 crates already its been months now



Fixing the gold economy would also shift away from making heavy cavalry players and strength builds being far and away the most effective and easy builds on strategus because of the large amount of plate for melee and the durability of wearing plate on an armored triple loomed horse (which also long overdue for a nerf since they over-buffed it months ago).  this is much like archery was OP ion strategus 1, and it got nerfed for 3 years straight.  Soooo many people have switched to having enough riding on an armored horse with a strength build, which should be indicative of the huge imbalance the current economy and horse buff has caused.

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Title: Re: How To Fix Strat's Economy
Post by: Erasmas on June 05, 2013, 05:49:00 pm
As far as I can agree that strat economy needs tweaks, the bottom line are the long term effects of such changes. So I have few comments:

There is nothing wrong in well equipped armies. That makes the Strat battles fun, that is why people want to fight. Well equipped armies mean very decent XP. Well equipped armies require gold. Making economy too difficult will lead us to less interesting strat. This will be a negative result of any operation aiming in decrease of the income.

Also, there is nothing wrong in the fact that small clans can earn decent money jn trade. That allows for financing army equipment and upkeep. That allows them to start existing on the map.

I do not agree that holding the fiefs does not give you anything. The overall impression of Strat at the moment is that it became a very strategic game. You have few main clans/ factions occupying large areas. It is debatable whether the areas are or are not to large. At the same time holding control over fief allows for use of the S&D in the fiefs. And the control means active players who will react on the actual situation on the map. Holding the location gives you safe harbor for your troops. Holding locations IS important. THIS IS WHAT STRATEGUS IS ABOUT.

What is the problem of the strat at the moments is ability of large factions to stack armies. That makes situation on the map quite stagnant, although not very much stagnant.  Note, that it is not impossible for a small group of guys with drive and dedication to carve out some space for themselves. Yes, it requires getting into deals with superpowers. Yes, it requires hard work. But it is doable. However large faction stacking armies lead us to to extensive disproportion between the large and small and even medium clans. At the sane time makes their situation more stable. Balancing of the game in that respect should be driven mainly by the factor of accessibility of the resources to the clans that do not own the land.

Do not get me wrong - I thing that the diversity on the map is a good thing we should have more factions here. But the size of the faction is out of control for developers. Alliances and agreements between factions are out of control for developers. AND THIS IS WHAT I LOVE IN THIS GAME. It is up to players how they want to arrange the relations. What should be controlled by devs is the size of area controlled by the faction. It should be roughly proportionate to the actual abilities of the clan, on many layers, starting form diplomatic abilities, ability to fill in the roster, logistics and organization, strategic vision, quality of actual players ending on activity of the players on Strats/crpg (ticks!!!).  I do not see any reason why the small clan with 4 guys should hold more than one fief. If they are smart - it may actually work, even now. One fief is a good start to holding two fiefs and recruiting more players.. and so on. All big clans have been there and got the t-shirts "I am noob in strat".

The "invisible hand of the market" regulates the issue of the proportions of clan size to the area held on the map to some extent, but I believe the moves aimed in depriving clans from resources will do no good. Instead, we should find a tools to force clans to fight. This is what this game is about. If the large clans fight, the small one can find the opportunity to place themselves on the map. The war will make large clans weaker. That will lead us to more active strat. And more XP to everyone :D

http://forum.meleegaming.com/strategus-general-discussion/in-the-next-strategus-make-economy-harder/ (http://forum.meleegaming.com/strategus-general-discussion/in-the-next-strategus-make-economy-harder/)

Human psychology is crucial here. Once you get something, you don't want to lose it in the first place, and to expand in the second place. Unless for are forced to do so by pressure of other clans.

And war is expensive.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: How To Fix Strat's Economy
Post by: DUKE DICKBUTT on June 06, 2013, 06:47:44 pm
Much like this country, health care will take great steps towards saving the economy.  If troops are hard to get, why can't we have some sort of post battle wounded status?  The winner of the battle should be able to recover some troops lost in battle after some time.  Perhaps 10% of losses after two days.

Also, my idea to delete -3 and -4 items will also take money out of the economy and reduce the occurance of item bugs.
Title: Re: How To Fix Strat's Economy
Post by: betard_lulz on June 06, 2013, 06:53:26 pm
wow I just farted while reading all this and it sure does smell.
Title: Re: How To Fix Strat's Economy
Post by: Mr.K. on June 07, 2013, 10:24:18 am
Yeah shooting these tincans and getting bumped for 50% by the war horses is getting old :P

Dude, you just rape us tincans with those magic headshots anyway :P

But yeah, I haven't played Strat for long, but it seems that every big battle is tincans vs tincans. That shouldn't be the case and it's quite hard to kill people even with 8PS with a 1H sword. Most of the time I have to use a morningstar in 1H mode to do significant damage. Even our tiny army that we've been building for a couple of months has plate armor for a few hundred men. Some armies dont even have any light armor for archers :D

However Heavy Cav I think we do need on strat. After the latest nerfs, light cav can no longer bump more than one guy which will make using cav as a bump tool impossible if there was no gold to arm heavy cavalry. And the fact that there are lots of very good archers and xbowmen in unreachable locations will allow them to take down any light cavalry with ease. If gold gain was drastically lowered, I would suggest rethinking the price of certain items like heavy cavalry, construction sites and so on so they wouldn't be completely removed from the game.

Also nerfing gold would mean nerfing xp gained from battles ;)
Title: Re: How To Fix Strat's Economy
Post by: bagge on June 07, 2013, 02:53:58 pm
Also nerfing gold would mean nerfing xp gained from battles ;)

I'd much rather have fun than getting shitloads of xp. :wink:
Title: Re: How To Fix Strat's Economy
Post by: Butan on June 07, 2013, 04:51:30 pm
But yeah, I haven't played Strat for long, but it seems that every big battle is tincans vs tincans.


Yep but when every infantry got tincan set, a slightly inferiorly armoured opponent appears to be winning the upper hand (except in very close and chaotic fights where movement speed and manoeuvrability isnt very useful).

So having a medium-heavy armor set + tincan set, and not 100% tincans seems to be the smart thing to do.
Title: Re: How To Fix Strat's Economy
Post by: Corsair831 on June 07, 2013, 04:58:41 pm

Yep but when every infantry got tincan set, a slightly inferiorly armoured opponent appears to be winning the upper hand (except in very close and chaotic fights where movement speed and manoeuvrability isnt very useful).

So having a medium-heavy armor set + tincan set, and not 100% tincans seems to be the smart thing to do.

what i always think about tincan is that it makes all players who use it broadly the same ... it limits the skill/ killing capability of better players, by slowing them down massively and meaning they can't really move, whilst making worse players (who often don't know how to move anyway), last longer ...

I'm just throwing it out there but i think for situations where you have the chance to move better you're right that the medium armours are better, because the more skilled players have the option to move around more than they can in the full tincan, and therefore have the opportunity to get more kills
Title: Re: How To Fix Strat's Economy
Post by: Butan on June 07, 2013, 05:45:28 pm
Exactly... I tried to do some 100% tincan armies and they failed pathetically (especially when on attack, where they have to climb some steep hills... XD)

But for STR crutcher like me, and heavy cavalry (who doesnt care about walking speed), its beast.