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Strategus => Strategus General Discussion => Topic started by: Corsair831 on May 13, 2013, 03:53:37 pm

Title: In the next strategus, make economy harder
Post by: Corsair831 on May 13, 2013, 03:53:37 pm
In the current iteration of strategus, it's easily economically viable for every single army to constantly wear full plate ...

 I just ask that in the next strategus you balance the economy so that perhaps full plate is more of a luxury rather than the normal level of armour

(I say this now because the current strategus is looking rather like a coalition/ merc/ templar victory if you were to look at the map, so i'm not sure how long this one will have left  :()

Thanks, Corsair
Title: Re: In the next strategus, make economy harder
Post by: Turboflex on May 13, 2013, 04:39:15 pm
Yeah there are some clear balance problems:
Gold and gear generation too easy. If you can't afford armies with 1-2 million gold value of gear at this point you're doing something wrong.

With winners retaining 1/2 gear from battle (slightly damaged) it has made defending too strong IMO. It's almost impossible to take some castles and cities that have defender friendly maps and 5-10k troop garrisons as long as the fief lord is inside to safely re-do the inventory after each round to prevent it from getting messed up.

Need to just get rid of this mechanic with broken gear retained. There's too much gold floating around anyway so adding this extra gear retention isn't necessary. Plus it creates too many hassles with inventory management, creates triple the work of inventory cleaning cuz you will get nailed by item slot limit if you don't. feature is just not needed, have used equipment just disappear.

It has been suggested before but I think a "siege" mechanic is needed so that you can park some armies outside an overstuffed castle or city to starve it out. The amount of time it takes scaling to how many total troops are inside (population + army + soldiers in parties) so that anything over 5k should starve out in 4-5 days, and less than 5k takes between 5 days to 10 days. Multiple armies should be able to siege at same time but whenever one of them is attacked it should add another 24 hours to time before surrender.
Title: Re: In the next strategus, make economy harder
Post by: Casimir on May 13, 2013, 04:41:00 pm
Yeah, once you get over 10k in a fief it becomes a bitch to grind down.  Victory is in no way assured for anyone.
Title: Re: In the next strategus, make economy harder
Post by: Erasmas on May 13, 2013, 05:20:09 pm
Quote from: Corsair831 on May 13, 2013, 03:53:37 pm
In the current iteration of strategus, it's easily economically viable for every single army to constantly wear full plate ...

I just ask that in the next strategus you balance the economy so that perhaps full plate is more of a luxury rather than the normal level of armour

(I say this now because the current strategus is looking rather like a coalition/ merc/ templar victory if you were to look at the map, so i'm not sure how long this one will have left  :()

Thanks, Corsair

The strat economy is dependent on three main factors atm:

- numbers of players in the clan: access to large playerbase gives you troops
- number of fiefs under control: access to the larger number of fiefs and their S&D gives you gold
- time lapse: the PPs in location are constantly growing: In the result: (i) over time it is possible to get great gear cheaper and cheaper due to discounts; (ii) over time the prosperity is constantly increased = increasing number of goods available = constantly increasing income.

***

In my opinion the biggest issue atm is that there is a constant boom on Calradia markets: prices of gear are going down, while the income on goods is constantly going up. The troop income is more or less constant for each clan.

That is why we will see better an better gear in factions that have large playerbase and large number of fiefs under control. 

What you need to take in the account is:

- It will always be a choice of the clan - whether the clan wants to have a lower number of troops with excellent armour or lots of troops with shitty gear. I believe the clans preferences will always go into the direction of strong gear vs troops number. Time limited battles create the clear preference of quality gear over troops number. In other words - it does not matter so much how many troops you have if you loose majority of your battles due to shitty gear. K:D is more important than actual troop count in the current state of affairs. (All of the above within certain limits of reason obviously)

- Making the economy very difficult (read: the gold is hard to get) will lead us to lower number of battles overall, cause the clans will withheld decisions on war until they are ready. With less gold they are ready later and that will mean more stagnat Strat. 

The end result of the constant boom is increasing gap between the level of wealth of large factions and small ones. In other words - either the money sinks are not sufficient or we have not enough battles.

For that reason we need mechanisms that force clans to fight. A lot.

My ideas are anti-intuitive a bit:


Be aware that if you exaggerate, people will lose the interest in Strat battles. These are attractive because of XP (being factor of eq of defenders), and possibility to play with fantastic eq.
Title: Re: In the next strategus, make economy harder
Post by: Gmnotutoo on May 13, 2013, 07:29:02 pm
I'd like to see a different ratio for looming items. Weak or underpowered stuff should take less production points, medium strength gear should use the normal amount now, and high tier should cost a lot more.
Title: Re: In the next strategus, make economy harder
Post by: Tactical_One on May 13, 2013, 10:37:24 pm
Economy sucks becouse S/D stacks.

Its completely opossite to reality. The town can have now 1 year of inactivity of traders, and after this year someone will pick up 1 mln trade goods from it , and become rich. While in reality such village would die in hunger and become very poor.

Limit of S/D in fiefs would do miracle (for example you cant have more than 3000, or prosperity decrases if S/D is too high)

It would increase activities of players. If you can't manage dealing with S/D as landowner you will be forced to invite traders, to won't lose all profits.

Also it would make independent traders, and smaler clans richer (since they can get wealth thanks to they activity)
Title: Re: In the next strategus, make economy harder
Post by: Vermilion on May 13, 2013, 10:51:25 pm
Quote
Increase upkeep for garrisons held in locations

Definitely agree, I've mentioned this a couple times.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AndZsiPEJtczdFRuQjBQbHJUZ2twV1RjTHB6YmRhc1E#gid=6

This is one of the main issues with strat .. just look at that graph!!!

Quote
I'd like to see a different ratio for looming items. Weak or underpowered stuff should take less production points, medium strength gear should use the normal amount now, and high tier should cost a lot more.

This is a good idea which I would like to see. Make it much easier to have low-level items loomed and have it harder and more expensive for high-level items.

Quote
With winners retaining 1/2 gear from battle (slightly damaged) it has made defending too strong IMO.
Quote
Need to just get rid of this mechanic with broken gear retained. There's too much gold floating around anyway so adding this extra gear retention isn't necessary.

Whilst i agree with this from a large faction defending a castle point of view.. I strongly disagree with this from a small faction/solo point of view. For small factions/solo players this makes being attack less costly, without this small factions could very easily be wiped out by large factions with +3 plate.

Look at the cotgs vs torben battle
(click to show/hide)
This loss from the cotgs will have caused very little damage to their economy. Whilst if it had of been torben who had lost it would have put him back weeks/months effectively starting from scratch. At least with winning and recovering 50% of the loot (besides time needed to reproduce the troops) he is left in a good position to carry on as a lone trader with potentially 800-900 troops of +1 gear (presuming everything was +3 like it is in most strat battles)


I want to see small faction/solo players be able to have a bigger impact on strat. As it stands we have to beg for SD or rely on high tax "free trade" fiefs.

So many areas where if you go to the 'wrong' place you just get stomped by a large faction and the time taken for you to even consider a revenge attack they have made so much gold, troops and items you're attack is futile.
Title: Re: In the next strategus, make economy harder
Post by: Keshian on May 13, 2013, 11:58:13 pm
The economy level of gold in strategus 2 was the closest they got to well-done.  Even near the end everyone was still fighting in middling armor and weapons unloomed.  It made skill a greater determiner of battle outcomes and made strength melee builds less of a guarantee to do well in strategus.


P.S. Anders thats pretty much what i said.
Title: Re: In the next strategus, make economy harder
Post by: Lt_Anders on May 14, 2013, 12:08:29 am
Quote from: Keshian on May 13, 2013, 11:58:13 pm
The economy level of gold in strategus 2 was the closest they got to well-done.  Even near the end everyone was still fighting in middling armor and weapons unloomed.  It made skill a greater determiner of battle outcomes and made strength melee builds less of a guarantee to do well in strategus.

OF course the gear was unloomed. They didn't have looms in strat 1 and 2.
Title: Re: In the next strategus, make economy harder
Post by: Penguin on May 14, 2013, 02:44:05 am
I've always wanted actual production facilities like mines/storehouses/farms to show up on the map, allowing the person who controls them the ability to boost recruitment inside the fief (focus on farming?), and to bring discounts on armor and weapons by having a surplus of ores and materials. Now we introduce a new dynamic where factions actually have an incentive to attack certain areas on a map. Of course I could play Civ instead....
Title: Re: In the next strategus, make economy harder
Post by: BaleOhay on May 14, 2013, 02:50:53 am
ahh how cute... people think there will be another strat... and changes!
Title: Re: In the next strategus, make economy harder
Post by: Corsair831 on May 14, 2013, 03:24:22 am
Quote from: BaleOhay on May 14, 2013, 02:50:53 am
ahh how cute... people think there will be another strat... and changes!

cynical high five  :D
Title: Re: In the next strategus, make economy harder
Post by: Taser on May 14, 2013, 03:59:55 am
Quote from: Havelle Registered Voter on May 14, 2013, 03:34:12 am
The economy is pretty fine.

I think something should be done about troop farming. I'm sure each clan has its share of dedicated members who just sit afk and troop farm. Thats pretty lame for the people who actually want to do things in start.

Perhaps it would all even out if you had to purchase troops, aswell as gear.

Something like a barracks for training troops would be nice. That way you can't farm troops simply by raising your troop cap.
Title: Re: In the next strategus, make economy harder
Post by: Erasmas on May 14, 2013, 04:34:11 am
Quote from: BaleOhay on May 14, 2013, 02:50:53 am
ahh how cute... people think there will be another strat... and changes!

No, we just hope they will make a new game a little bit... different :D
Title: Re: In the next strategus, make economy harder
Post by: Uumdi on May 14, 2013, 07:28:42 am
Quote from: Erasmas on May 13, 2013, 05:20:09 pm
the PPs in locations are constantly growing


tee hee
Title: Re: In the next strategus, make economy harder
Post by: Corsair831 on May 14, 2013, 01:11:32 pm
troops based off numbers of fiefs ...

as of current you have prosperity points you can put into fiefs, either upgrading equipment or increasing their S&D.

Why not make it so that troops are automatically recruited from fiefs at a certain rate which can be upgraded with prosperity points (therefore making you choose a balance between equipment, gold and troops)?
Title: Re: In the next strategus, make economy harder
Post by: Vermilion on May 14, 2013, 01:46:51 pm
Quote from: Corsair831 on May 14, 2013, 01:11:32 pm
troops based off numbers of fiefs ...

as of current you have prosperity points you can put into fiefs, either upgrading equipment or increasing their S&D.

Why not make it so that troops are automatically recruited from fiefs at a certain rate which can be upgraded with prosperity points (therefore making you choose a balance between equipment, gold and troops)?

How would factions without a fief make troops?

Edit: How about PP points needed to maintain an garrison. Like increase prosperity, you can increase the maximum army/pop size a fief can hold. Therefore to have 1000's of troops in a fief you will have needed to spend a lot of PP on being able to do that, reduces the amount of PP available to produce weapons and armor. This would make factions have to compromise between large garrisons and cheap/good armor.

Combined with the idea of a different amount of PP required to loom and discount low level items compared to high level items, this would allow you to have a large garrison with poor weapons and armor or a small garrison with high end armor and weapons.

When large factions go to war they can take out their weapons/armor producing fiefs. Leaving their enemy with lots of troops but limited gear. Makes war a lot more tactful and realistic.. Wars have always been focused on cutting of the enemies supplies not just an endless grind of troops.
Title: Re: In the next strategus, make economy harder
Post by: Corsair831 on May 16, 2013, 12:19:11 pm
Quote from: Vermilion on May 14, 2013, 01:46:51 pm
How would factions without a fief make troops?

Edit: How about PP points needed to maintain an garrison. Like increase prosperity, you can increase the maximum army/pop size a fief can hold. Therefore to have 1000's of troops in a fief you will have needed to spend a lot of PP on being able to do that, reduces the amount of PP available to produce weapons and armor. This would make factions have to compromise between large garrisons and cheap/good armor.

Combined with the idea of a different amount of PP required to loom and discount low level items compared to high level items, this would allow you to have a large garrison with poor weapons and armor or a small garrison with high end armor and weapons.

When large factions go to war they can take out their weapons/armor producing fiefs. Leaving their enemy with lots of troops but limited gear. Makes war a lot more tactful and realistic.. Wars have always been focused on cutting of the enemies supplies not just an endless grind of troops.

that's an interesting idea, as it would mean that factions would have to garrison troops on their players, which is what 8x more expensive or something