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cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: OttomanSniper on April 29, 2013, 09:19:14 pm

Title: Archery for Strategus
Post by: OttomanSniper on April 29, 2013, 09:19:14 pm
I collect 250+ points in game but only kill 2 player.

LVL 35
26str
8 Power Draw
150wp
+3 rus bow
+3 bodkin arrow

Too many shots bounced with this build. I get 10+ headshot but never kill with HS

How can you explain this s*it? I play this game from CRPG start and never see like this. Devs u are really...
Title: Re: Archery for Strategus
Post by: Segd on April 29, 2013, 09:20:55 pm
ltp


Byzantium_bagge   50k   1d

http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesparticipated#!?page=battleroster&id=2238
Title: Re: Archery for Strategus
Post by: San on April 29, 2013, 09:26:19 pm
I dunno. Saw an archer named Vick get ~54/14 in a battle with medium-heavy armor everywhere just yesterday night. Could have just been a bad day or just an unfortunate choice of targets.
Title: Re: Archery for Strategus
Post by: OttomanSniper on April 29, 2013, 09:29:20 pm
no i dont miss shot a lot of but my arrows dont give damage. my shots only works on make point.

i hear only bounce sound.

Edit: i can damge all tincans in eu_1 but i dont feel same power in the strategus war. why?
Title: Re: Archery for Strategus
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on April 30, 2013, 08:45:34 pm
Well you were clearly causing damage if you had 250 score...

In strategus people tend to have higher armor, and it wouldn't surprise me if you were fighting people who had all +3 armor.  You don't typically see 100% of the people in EU1 (or NA1) playing in heavy armor that is all +3

Anecdotal evidence is an oxymoron.
Title: Re: Archery for Strategus
Post by: oprah_winfrey on April 30, 2013, 08:54:41 pm
Isn't archery damage less in strategus battles then in battle servers, or was this change reverted? Either way, there is no way all of your shots are bouncing with 8pd.
Title: Re: Archery for Strategus
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on April 30, 2013, 08:57:58 pm
Isn't archery damage less in strategus battles then in battle servers, or was this change reverted? Either way, there is no way all of your shots are bouncing with 8pd.

I thought I remember hearsay about that, don't know if it was ever implemented (or reverted if it was).  Sure hope that's not the case...
Title: Re: Archery for Strategus
Post by: MrShine on April 30, 2013, 10:08:22 pm
I remember talk about archers in strat having reduced damage & accuracy but increasing their firing speed to support archer volleys and stuff.

I don't think that ever happened, so I doubt archers are any different in strat than they are anywhere else. 
Title: Re: Archery for Strategus
Post by: duurrr on May 03, 2013, 03:02:54 am
Hey i got an idea, what about stop being a shitty fuking player and learn the game through playing melee instead of just sitting there point and shooting all day and running whenever someone gets close and you fear death brah, and by brah I mean never my brah, fukin phaggot.
Title: Re: Archery for Strategus
Post by: Canary on May 03, 2013, 10:19:26 pm
Archers now work with 170% speed and 50% damage, team archers withing a small area give +10% damage to that (should show with a debug message for now, for testing purposes)

This is what the archery change that was implemented for strat is/was. I am not sure if it has been repealed since then, but it was active for a time.
Title: Re: Archery for Strategus
Post by: Jarlek on May 03, 2013, 11:15:59 pm
This is what the archery change that was implemented for strat is/was. I am not sure if it has been repealed since then, but it was active for a time.
It was removed almost immediately because of massive QQ
Title: Re: Archery for Strategus
Post by: Rhekimos on May 03, 2013, 11:27:22 pm
It was pretty silly. 3 archers could keep me in permanent ranged stun.
Title: Re: Archery for Strategus
Post by: Rumblood on May 04, 2013, 01:12:01 am
It was pretty silly. 3 archers could keep me in permanent ranged stun.

Stunned because it was awesome!

At any rate, 3 cavalry can keep you on perma-knockdown, 3 infantry can keep you perma-dead. 3 anything against you solo is bad news for you.

Why do you think that the game should be balanced with you vs 3 of any class in mind?
Title: Re: Archery for Strategus
Post by: Rhekimos on May 04, 2013, 01:14:35 am
They didn't do any damage though. I survived about 30 shots and went to heal at the tent.
Title: Re: Archery for Strategus
Post by: Rumblood on May 04, 2013, 01:35:58 am
That's good. It makes them a support class. While you are perma-stunned, a 2H hero should have come along and chopped your head off :!:
Title: Re: Archery for Strategus
Post by: Rhekimos on May 04, 2013, 05:12:47 pm
I guess.

I don't think the archers enjoyed it either. At least that's what I heard from archer clanmates in the same fight.
Title: Re: Archery for Strategus
Post by: Rumblood on May 04, 2013, 06:26:02 pm
That is the whole premise behind my MW Nomad bow build. it is fun as hell. Well, unless you need to satisfy your e-peen with a high k/d ratio for bragging. Me, I'm satisfied with rolling x5 while I buff my teammates k/d.
Title: Re: Archery for Strategus
Post by: OttomanSniper on May 06, 2013, 03:54:25 pm
I lose my years for this game and  u say to me "u are support class". Who wants play a support class? OK give me to a free respec! Its new nerf and I did not know this class will nerf in future.

Look real wars, archery isn't support class. Mostly one shot = one kill. But in CRPG all tincans looks like hedgehog. I cant understans how can move this tincans with 20 arrow? Its look painful.
Title: Re: Archery for Strategus
Post by: Rumblood on May 06, 2013, 06:51:55 pm
I collect 250+ points in game but only kill 2 player.

LVL 35
26str
8 Power Draw
150wp
+3 rus bow
+3 bodkin arrow

I get kills with only 3 PD, a +3 Nomad Bow and +3 arrows (normal). Some arrows will bounce off of tincans, but not all. Certainly with higher PD they don't nearly as often. You are either A: really bad or B: killing teammates and losing kills or C: you are exaggerating for effect.
Title: Re: Archery for Strategus
Post by: MrShine on May 06, 2013, 07:57:18 pm
I get kills with only 3 PD, a +3 Nomad Bow and +3 arrows (normal). Some arrows will bounce off of tincans, but not all. Certainly with higher PD they don't nearly as often. You are either A: really bad or B: killing teammates and losing kills or C: you are exaggerating for effect.

Grannpappy you're HA now though, right?  OP is over-exaggerating, but at the same time HA speed bonus & high horse archery skill can probably achieve higher damage than a foot archer.  I don't know how feasible 3 PD is for a foot archer unless they solely focus peasants or headshots.
Title: Re: Archery for Strategus
Post by: Rumblood on May 07, 2013, 12:34:43 am
Grannpappy you're HA now though, right?  OP is over-exaggerating, but at the same time HA speed bonus & high horse archery skill can probably achieve higher damage than a foot archer.  I don't know how feasible 3 PD is for a foot archer unless they solely focus peasants or headshots.

Right now I am, but that doesn't mean I haven't done a full generation as a foot archer with a Nomad bow and 3 PD and done just fine. Besides, if you think that being on a horse makes a 3PD +3 Nomad bow with +3 normal arrows more powerful than 8PD with +3 Rus and +3 Bodkins, you my Shiny friend, are crazy in the head  :lol:
Title: Re: Archery for Strategus
Post by: Tears of Destiny on May 07, 2013, 01:05:49 am
OP is over-exaggerating, but at the same time HA speed bonus & high horse archery skill can probably achieve higher damage than a foot archer.


Never in the history of c-RPG have I or any Fallen I know feared the sting of a HA's arrow more then a normal archer. High HA skill helps accuracy, your damage is murdered by using a smaller bow, being unable to spare the normal amount of attributes and skill that a normal archer has due to sinking into HA and Riding, and that even high HA skill will still leave you at a noticeable damage penalty.


Only at the best of times, the rarest of times, will the HA do more damage then an archer (who would have to be a horn-bow toting accuracy build), and even then you could simply brute-force higher damage from a ground archer if the ground archer ever wanted comparable accuracy to a HA and use the saved points to have a crapload of PD with a rus/longbow.
Title: Re: Archery for Strategus
Post by: MrShine on May 07, 2013, 03:28:41 pm
I should have clarified my earlier post: what I meant was that a HA can achieve more damage than a foot archer of equivalent PD.  The speed bonus changes probably helped bring HA a bit closer to foot archer damage in general, but yeah I'm in agreement that foot archers in general have the capacity to output more damage.

I'm mostly just surprised that Grannpappy can get away with 3 PD... that seems masochistic :P
Title: Re: Archery for Strategus
Post by: bagge on May 22, 2013, 10:56:13 pm
Archery aint a support class.

http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesparticipated#!?page=battleroster&id=2870 - siege (attacker)

http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesparticipated#!?page=battleroster&id=3744 - open field (attacker)

I collect 250+ points in game but only kill 2 player.

LVL 35
26str
8 Power Draw
150wp
+3 rus bow
+3 bodkin arrow

Too many shots bounced with this build. I get 10+ headshot but never kill with HS

How can you explain this s*it? I play this game from CRPG start and never see like this. Devs u are really...

If that is so you're just bad :P I got 6 PD btw.
Title: Re: Archery for Strategus
Post by: Mr.K. on May 23, 2013, 12:58:27 am
Do NOT buff Bagge. FFS, this my old friend rapes anything that moves on strat. If you can't aimboat, be a 2H hero.

Archery is fine. It's UP as shit, but a pro's like Bagge still pwn. Deal with it.
Title: Re: Archery for Strategus
Post by: Bobthehero on May 23, 2013, 04:41:46 pm
Look real wars, archery isn't support class. Mostly one shot = one kill. But in CRPG all tincans looks like hedgehog. I cant understans how can move this tincans with 20 arrow? Its look painful.

Absofuckinglutely not you moron, there's been tales of Crusaders with arrow stuck in them and said Crusaders just walking around, their armor protected them, whilw with plate armor the arrows would be bouncing back, they barely feel the arrows.
Title: Re: Archery for Strategus
Post by: OttomanSniper on May 29, 2013, 10:42:27 pm
Archery aint a support class.

http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesparticipated#!?page=battleroster&id=2870 - siege (attacker)

http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesparticipated#!?page=battleroster&id=3744 - open field (attacker)

If that is so you're just bad :P I got 6 PD btw.

yea u are awesome archer i know, my last strategus war; u shot me 7 times and kill me 6 time from my head and one time to body like %100 level counter strike pod-bot. its mean u make better ur player skills. and why my shots bounced i still cant understand, im not best archer in crpg but i have highest damage archer in crpg. repeat repeat repeat.... how can bounce i still cant understand.

Absofuckinglutely not you moron, there's been tales of Crusaders with arrow stuck in them and said Crusaders just walking around, their armor protected them, whilw with plate armor the arrows would be bouncing back, they barely feel the arrows.

uneducated...

Title: Re: Archery for Strategus
Post by: Bobthehero on May 30, 2013, 02:30:07 am
Yes send me a link in moonspeak and try to educate me, right.... right...

Edit: The test at the end is done so horribly wrong the only thing I want to do right now is punch your face in, how can you not notice all the flaws you moronic fuck face, no seriously, they take a single metal plate without and gambeson, and then fire an arrow and call it a day.
Title: Re: Archery for Strategus
Post by: Jarold on May 30, 2013, 04:13:20 am
Went 39/18 with 6 PD in the only strat battle I played as archer. It was a +3 horn bow, would've preferred a +3 long bow. I had to repeatedly jump and chop down ladders as an archer because some teammates wouldn't do it.
Title: Re: Archery for Strategus
Post by: bagge on May 30, 2013, 08:58:09 pm
Went 39/18 with 6 PD in the only strat battle I played as archer. It was a +3 horn bow, would've preferred a +3 long bow. I had to repeatedly jump and chop down ladders as an archer because some teammates wouldn't do it.

Point being?
Title: Re: Archery for Strategus
Post by: peter_afca7 on June 05, 2013, 01:25:37 pm
Archery aint a support class.

http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesparticipated#!?page=battleroster&id=2870 - siege (attacker)

http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesparticipated#!?page=battleroster&id=3744 - open field (attacker)

If that is so you're just bad :P I got 6 PD btw.
NERF BAGGE!
Title: Re: Archery for Strategus
Post by: Keshian on June 05, 2013, 02:16:09 pm
Archery aint a support class.

http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesparticipated#!?page=battleroster&id=2870 - siege (attacker)

http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesparticipated#!?page=battleroster&id=3744 - open field (attacker)

If that is so you're just bad :P I got 6 PD btw.

Yeah, if you are going to do archer - just do the minimum powerdraw with maxed out weaponmaster - it makes it incredibly easy as long as you use bodkins you will do nearly the same damage as strength build archers without the huge nerf to weapon proficiency.  They mentioned a long time ago they were going to buff strength archers but they never did, one of the reasons I plan on retiring - tired of fighting with gimped build against easy mode agility archery.  But yeah playing on alts minimum powerdraw with high weaponmaster has made it very easy for me to get head shots, the arrows actually consistently go exactly where you aim them. 

Archery doesn't really need a buff (maybe powerdraw shouldn't massively nerf weapon proficiency since you are already trading weaponmaster points to get more powerdraw) - heavy cavalry just needs nerf and the damage of xbows needs slight nerf so they actually have to get headshots to kill or 3 bolts instead of often killing with 1 body shot or at most 2 with mw arbalest and mw steel bolts.


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Archery for Strategus
Post by: Gurnisson on June 05, 2013, 02:22:06 pm
They mentioned a long time ago they were going to buff strength archers but they never did

They did reduce the amount of lost wpf to PD. The draw rate and accuracy is a lot better than before. You've almost one-shot me with around 60 body armour and 24 strength in strategus fyi, you just don't notice the difference because the 6 PD archers usually take around 50 % and will also use 2 arrows to take me down on full health.

heavy cavalry just needs nerf

They're finally not garbage compared to the light horses and their price, and now you think they need a nerf? I don't think so, at least.

and the damage of xbows needs slight nerf so they actually have to get headshots to kill or 3 bolts instead of often killing with 1 body shot or at most 2 with mw arbalest and mw steel bolts.

The damage is not that much higher than mw long bow and mw bodkins and the rate of fire is quite a lot lower and they can't reload on the move. I'd rather see xbow get a buff than a nerf to be honest.
Title: Re: Archery for Strategus
Post by: Keshian on June 05, 2013, 02:47:48 pm
They did reduce the amount of lost wpf to PD. The draw rate and accuracy is a lot better than before. You've almost one-shot me with around 60 body armour and 24 strength in strategus fyi, you just don't notice the difference because the 6 PD archers usually take around 50 % and will also use 2 arrows to take me down on full health.

They're finally not garbage compared to the light horses and their price, and now you think they need a nerf? I don't think so, at least.

The damage is not that much higher than mw long bow and mw bodkins and the rate of fire is quite a lot lower and they can't reload on the move. I'd rather see xbow get a buff than a nerf to be honest.

Not by much if they did, lol.  Its still extremely significant nerf to wpf with higher powerdraw - with 9 powerdraw - it effectively reduces my wpf to below 120.  And you are right both archers usually take 3-4 arrows to kill or 2 arrows for lightly armored agility builds (like anyone is lightly armored or agility build in strategus anymore).

Thats the thing - price is not a deterrent anymore not in crpg and definitely not in strategus, so yes they need a nerf in actual stats not cost.  They were never "garbage" compared to lighter horses, and now they make it incrediblye asy to get 70+ kills with very little skill because of the sheer insane durability of triple loomed armored horses being ridden by full plate armor people who can still do strength builds tfor survivability and damage since you only need 5 riding.

The difference is rate of fire trade-off with permanent steady shot and higher shoot speed with mw arbalest.  The damage is higher than mw long bow and mw bodkins partially because of the higher shoot speed which sustains more damage over distance.  Also, you only need 15 strength with no points put into powerdraw, which makes it easier to max out weapon proficiency (15-27 builds are very common now) and with no powerdraw nerf the accuracy is significantly higher using an arbalest.

So you have accuracy, shoot speed, steady reticule, and damage for what - a slower reload speed where you can just hide behind siege shield/building/turret to reload whereas archers are more exposed and have to pull back the bow while aiming instead of having ready shot-sidestep-shoot-sidestep back and reload.  have you been in any strategus battles lately?   There are reasons heavy cav builds and xbow builds have become more common over the past year.
Title: Re: Archery for Strategus
Post by: Teeth on June 05, 2013, 03:18:01 pm
They're finally not garbage compared to the light horses and their price, and now you think they need a nerf? I don't think so, at least..
Hah, in Strat nothing is as OP as heavy horses, often the outcome of the battle is decided by whoever brings the most cav in slightly open maps. The horses tank like 5 longspear stabs and then the rider requires another 4. Their distractive role and bumping role alone makes them incredibly important. Which is more of an economy problem to be fair, people should not have that much money that they can waste it on all sorts of low cost/effectivity items.
Title: Re: Archery for Strategus
Post by: Gurnisson on June 05, 2013, 03:46:51 pm
Not by much if they did, lol.  Its still extremely significant nerf to wpf with higher powerdraw - with 9 powerdraw - it effectively reduces my wpf to below 120.  And you are right both archers usually take 3-4 arrows to kill or 2 arrows for lightly armored agility builds (like anyone is lightly armored or agility build in strategus anymore).

Is 24 strength ~60 body armor lightly armored agility build? I rarely have the joy of being alive after 2 arrows in strategus.

Thats the thing - price is not a deterrent anymore not in crpg and definitely not in strategus, so yes they need a nerf in actual stats not cost.  They were never "garbage" compared to lighter horses, and now they make it incrediblye asy to get 70+ kills with very little skill because of the sheer insane durability of triple loomed armored horses being ridden by full plate armor people who can still do strength builds tfor survivability and damage since you only need 5 riding.

They have to fix the economy rather than nerf heavy cav. Heavy cav ain't op in crpg and shouldn't be nerfed. However, the amount of heavy armour and expensive items in strategus is ridiculous. There's no reason not to get the most effective gear at all times, because cost is not an issue.

The difference is rate of fire trade-off with permanent steady shot and higher shoot speed with mw arbalest.  The damage is higher than mw long bow and mw bodkins partially because of the higher shoot speed which sustains more damage over distance.  Also, you only need 15 strength with no points put into powerdraw, which makes it easier to max out weapon proficiency (15-27 builds are very common now) and with no powerdraw nerf the accuracy is significantly higher using an arbalest.

Archers will shine more in the fields, while xbows will shine more in sieges. I see no problem with that. The accuracy is barely any different anyway, you just have more time to pick the perfect shot as a crossbowman.

So you have accuracy, shoot speed, steady reticule, and damage for what - a slower reload speed where you can just hide behind siege shield/building/turret to reload whereas archers are more exposed and have to pull back the bow while aiming instead of having ready shot-sidestep-shoot-sidestep back and reload.  have you been in any strategus battles lately?   There are reasons heavy cav builds and xbow builds have become more common over the past year.

I play quite a bit of strat, yes. I find archers do be way more devastating on the fields, where also the heavy cav and the pikemen/hoplites shines. Xbows, shielders and two-handers have an easier time on the sieges.

Hah, in Strat nothing is as OP as heavy horses, often the outcome of the battle is decided by whoever brings the most cav in slightly open maps. The horses tank like 5 longspear stabs and then the rider requires another 4. Their distractive role and bumping role alone makes them incredibly important. Which is more of an economy problem to be fair, people should not have that much money that they can waste it on all sorts of low cost/effectivity items.

Biased little view you have Teeth. You are playing the most op build in strategus yourself. It's not the heavy cavalry that usually defines the outcome (I expect you're talking about field battles), it's more the hoplites and pikeman who does, but I guess you won't admit that? :)
Title: Re: Archery for Strategus
Post by: Teeth on June 05, 2013, 05:00:14 pm
Biased little view you have Teeth. You are playing the most op build in strategus yourself. It's not the heavy cavalry that usually defines the outcome (I expect you're talking about field battles), it's more the hoplites and pikeman who does, but I guess you won't admit that? :)
I have never failed to acknowledge the extreme strength of support polearms in Strategus, dunno why you would call me biased in that regard. The number of support polearms are usually quite evenly distributed across the two teams though, therefore they won't really decide the outcome. I think this is less so with cav. When the number of cavalry is noticably higher on one team, you really get to see the destructive force of heavy cavalry. When the war between Shu Han and The Coalition had just started, they managed to draw up some GK's and other cav, causing them to often have 15 or even 20 cavalry players. All of course on +3 Chargers and wearing +3 Corrazina armour. Even when defending a fairly closed village, this number of cavalry completely destroyed any infantry cohesion or formation on our side due to being too numerous to stop. I think you were present for a few of these battles as well. Of course we as a Byzantium led faction had a very good line up of support polearms, but yet we did quite badly.

When you actually manage to stop a heavy horse, half a dozen people turn around to kill the horse, while the rider sits up there blocking. When the horse dies, that means that there is usually a very angry shielder in the middle of your infantry group. If this happens a few times, your infantry will be completely scattered, fighting enemies that are running around them everywhere and all the support polearms get raped. I probably don't have to explain to you that support polearming is at its most effective when there are two somewhat linear formations fighting eachother.

When heavy cavalry charges and infantry charges are properly combined, heavy cav offers a huge advantage and can change the outcome. I am talking about the big picture here, not so much that heavy cavalry tops the scoreboards, of course that is the support polearm grinding points by killing their horses, but more their ability to completely disrupt an infantry group, giving an advantage to their own infantry group.

In these Shu Han - Coalition battles we got pwnd when they pulled of a proper wave, we even lost our spawns one time, and I dare say we outclassed them in the pikemen/hoplite field. Simply by parking extremely tanky horses and players dead center in an infantry group.
Title: Re: Archery for Strategus
Post by: bagge on June 05, 2013, 07:17:29 pm

(click to show/hide)

Yeah WM is the way too go. I always, always aim for the head, which is easier with more prof. I see archer that fail completely with the same build as me thou, cause they havn't learned to headshot yet :P

http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesparticipated#!?page=battleroster&id=2492 (http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesparticipated#!?page=battleroster&id=2492) My best ratio as a defender, second is the one Segd linked in the first page of the thread.