cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Rhaelys on April 18, 2013, 12:33:45 am
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As the title suggests, I am suggesting a secondary mode for polearms that are usable with a shield. For example, take the Spear. It can be used with a shield in which it has only one attack direction: a thrust with extended reach, known as a hoplite thrust. If the shield is put away or broken, the Spear has four attack directions, but the thrust attack now has a different attack animation, most notably being shorter than the hoplite thrust. If the Spear had the ability to be switched to a secondary mode, it could then access the hoplite thrust without having a shield in the other hand.
For balance purposes, I would suggest that this secondary mode for all shield-usable polearms without a shield equipped
1) only allow the hoplite thrust attack direction
2) not have the ability to block (since blocking with that animation was done with a shield)
Thus, it would provide no advantage in most combat situations (as switching to access a different attack animation would leave you exposed and unable to block).
There are only a few advantages this secondary mode would offer: increased ability to participate in line battles without a shield (as hoplites normally do) and an increased reach to hit horses without a shield (as hoplites normally do). I could also envision an infantry switching to the secondary mode to gain enough reach on the thrust animation to catch an enemy who is attempting to run away.
Comments and criticisms are welcome.
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This is actually a really good idea. And well balanced if you are actually unable to block with this mode.
Not sure how it will work with weapons like bec de corbin. It has 2ndary more with blunt damage already + it can be used with a shield(I think).
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Sure, right after you break the hilariously broken stab animations. There's no reason the side of the shaft colliding into me should still count as pierce damage. It should be a nerf.
And then remove Pikes, because they're used in an improper fashion more than half the time.
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Sure, right after you break the hilariously broken stab animations. There's no reason the side of the shaft colliding into me should still count as pierce damage. It should be a nerf.
That should be adjusted, yes. Same with the drag and drop 2h deal (overhead, drag into enemy, profit). Still works despite turn changes.
Soooorry, Rhaelys. I'm for it, can't see any reason to deny this as you put it forth.
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Please keep discussion focused on the suggestion I presented, which solely deals with adding a secondary mode animation to polearms that can be used with a shield. Comments or concerns about hitboxes of weapon animations and such should be made in another thread.
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@lennu Bec cannot be used with shield
This is a great idea and will give another minor buff to the (historically) greatest weapon of all time the spear.
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Please keep discussion focused on the suggestion I presented, which solely deals with adding a secondary mode animation to polearms that can be used with a shield. Comments or concerns about hitboxes of weapon animations and such should be made in another thread.
They need to be discussed as a whole, otherwise you would not be taking balance into account. If you get more variety, you need to give up damage and/or speed. Most consider hoplites to already be over powered.
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They need to be discussed as a whole, otherwise you would not be taking balance into account. If you get more variety, you need to give up damage and/or speed. Most consider hoplites to already be over powered.
Again, please do not try to derail my topic. Consider this: if a hoplite has no shield and tries to switch to the hoplite-thrust secondary mode, he or she can't block. Which means you get a free hit if you can capitalize on that. Hoplites can already hoplite thrust with a shield... give me a good reason why they shouldn't be able to do that without a shield in their other hand. If anything, it would be easier to hoplite-stab without a shield in your other hand.
It just seems to me like you have a personal issue with hoplites. That's fine, but please address those concerns in another thread.
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I think this is a great idea and without blocking I think it should not unbalance things too much. Having discovered that the ashwood pike without shield is awesome again, this addition would make it incredibly awesome. It's somewhat like taking a practice shield out when you see cav coming.
What you can do with one hand with a shield is of course also possible with one hand without a shield. With loads of other weapons getting awesome and useful secondary modes, I think this is a good change and it adds a cool new element.
Also, add couching on foot please for 10+ athlethics, if only for hilarity reasons.
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Again, please do not try to derail my topic. Consider this: if a hoplite has no shield and tries to switch to the hoplite-thrust secondary mode, he or she can't block. Which means you get a free hit if you can capitalize on that. Hoplites can already hoplite thrust with a shield... give me a good reason why they shouldn't be able to do that without a shield in their other hand. If anything, it would be easier to hoplite-stab without a shield in your other hand.
It just seems to me like you have a personal issue with hoplites. That's fine, but please address those concerns in another thread.
Okay, then you can change my response to "Don't add this because hoplite is already too powerful."
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Okay, then you can change my response to "Don't add this because hoplite is already too powerful."
This change doesn't affect hoplites at all though. Why would a hoplite put his shield on his back and switch to secondary mode to do the exact same stab he already can do with a shield? This change affects people that use spears without a shield. Which since the turn rate nerf and pole stagger removal, have become rather rare. They used to be good because you could pole stagger someone with the weak sideswings (or overhead if 2D) and then get a high damage stab in. Very little reason to pick a war spear over a poleaxe now if you do not use a shield.
With this change they get a nice new niche, which they can really use. It would be a very situational thing, because giving up blocking is a big deal, but still it's nice to have.
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This change doesn't affect hoplites at all though. Why would a hoplite put his shield on his back and switch to secondary mode to do the exact same stab he already can do with a shield? This change affects people that use spears without a shield. Which since the turn rate nerf and pole stagger removal, have become rather rare. They used to be good because you could pole stagger someone with the weak sideswings (or overhead if 2D) and then get a high damage stab in. Very little reason to pick a war spear over a poleaxe now if you do not use a shield.
With this change they get a nice new niche, which they can really use. It would be a very situational thing, because giving up blocking is a big deal, but still it's nice to have.
Right but the stab a horse a mile away to read it thing is already ridiculous. I don't want more people to be able to do it.
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Right but the stab a horse a mile away to read it thing is already ridiculous. I don't want more people to be able to do it.
That is a shitty reason. Besides people could just equip a 0 requirement shield and do it anyway.
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That is a shitty reason. Besides people could just equip a 0 requirement shield and do it anyway.
Nope, that would require 3 shield skill.
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The practice shields are all 0 difficulty according to the website.
Personally, I see no problem with giving spearmen an animation they already use anyways. The ability to not block and the lock in only one attack direction more than makes up for this proposed change. It would provide more people the ability to fend off cavalry before the two forces collide (but these people already exist to begin with). Once the forces collide with each other most of these no-shield-long-stabbers will go back to their regular animations anyways.
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Nope, that would require 3 shield skill.
Are you serious?
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Are you serious?
Misread it, thought he said 0 slot for some reason. Anyway, that's fine. The practice shield and that fur shield each have weight to them and break after like one hit. They also provide visual indicators of which attacks they will be able to do.
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They also provide visual indicators of which attacks they will be able to do.
How is someone walking around holding their weapon in the hoplite animation without a shield instead of any of the other regular polearm animations (either at rest or holding any swing) not a pretty blatant visual indicator? I guess Rhaelys doesn't actually say whether or not the at-rest animation would remain the same. There ought to be some difference, even a subtle one.
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Jabber jabber jabber
Anything you say Rhaelys, I lub you.
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How is someone walking around holding their weapon in the hoplite animation without a shield instead of any of the other regular polearm animations (either at rest or holding any swing) not a pretty blatant visual indicator? I guess Rhaelys doesn't actually say whether or not the at-rest animation would remain the same. There ought to be some difference, even a subtle one.
The at rest animation should be holding the spear in one hand like with a shield.
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I didn't even know the hoplite thrust is longer then the polearm thust without shield ^^
Is it a constant length increase, same for every polearm or does it depend on the polearms length?
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I didn't even know the hoplite thrust is longer then the polearm thust without shield ^^
Is it a constant length increase, same for every polearm or does it depend on the polearms length?
Constant, it's due to animations. I think the difference in length is somewhere around 70ish, quite a lot.
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Constant, it's due to animations. I think the difference in length is somewhere around 70ish, quite a lot.
so length of pike + 70 ... yeah they really don't need to be able to block then anymore :lol:
If at the same time
a) the insta stabs vansihes with such a change and
b) a slight higher reduction of movement speed, while this attack would be held open, in comparison to other attacks held open.
then this maybe a nice thing to have.
I am always for adding varities, aslong they are put into proportion with the existing default game mechanics.
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It's +50
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nvm, good idea
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This idea makes perfect sense. Along those lines, bastard weapons should have access to their 1h animations even if a shield isn't equipped.
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It's +50
But isn't polearm stab also -20ish?
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But isn't polearm stab also -20ish?
It's 0 afaik, lowest length addition to any melee animation in the game.
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2h Polearms
Overhead = -15
Left-to-right = -7
Right-to-left = -2
Thrust = +19
1h Polearms
Thrust = +50
Which would in fact mean that the hoplite thrust adds only 31 reach on the 2h polearm stab, which means that all those longspears that I dare to stab in the face with my 166+31 stab are just very bad. Don't think polearm got changed much so these values probably still hold, if they were correct to begin with. I personally doubt it, the difference between polearm left and polearm right swing feels a lot bigger than this, and I always feel like my overheads are as long if not longer than my stabs. No way there is a 34 range difference between those. So honestly I don't think this test was done correctly and the results are pretty much useless.
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2h Polearms
Overhead = -15
Left-to-right = -7
Right-to-left = -2
Thrust = +19
That is bullshit. No way the thrust of a 2h polearm is over 20 length longer than the right swing and 34 longer than the overhead. No fucking way.
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That is bullshit. No way the thrust of a 2h polearm is over 20 length longer than the right swing and 34 longer than the overhead. No fucking way.
Overhead is longer, at least from a practical perspective.