cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Algarn on April 15, 2013, 10:53:55 pm

Title: Are repairs fair ?
Post by: Algarn on April 15, 2013, 10:53:55 pm
I don't know why , but I know how I lost 60k since 3 weeks : by repairing my +3 longbow each round ... And if I answer if a cav gains money , that's  a yes , whereas they have 50 body armor + cavalry sword + horse to pay ... I really wonder if repair system is usefull and helpfull for new guys ...

Discuss
Title: Re: Are repairs fair ?
Post by: Miwiw on April 15, 2013, 10:55:01 pm
It's unfair because upkeep is far too low for any item.
Title: Re: Are repairs fair ?
Post by: Algarn on April 15, 2013, 11:08:41 pm
And some item cost too much( ex : arbalest : 1315 gold each round wtf , longbow , 777 gold ). I don't blame prizes , they are fine I think , but they have to put to 2% the chance to get repairs on an item, becauseif you pay 1315 or 777 gold each round ,  you'll become a peasant soon
Title: Re: Are repairs fair ?
Post by: Lennu on April 15, 2013, 11:13:06 pm
Quote from: Miwiw99 on April 15, 2013, 10:55:01 pm
It's unfair because upkeep is far too low for any item.

Remove valor. This way high tier item-stackers can't whore x5 all day.

And about the arbalest costing too much. That shiet 1shots people from across the map. It should cost even more.
Title: Re: Are repairs fair ?
Post by: Algarn on April 15, 2013, 11:16:46 pm
I said I don't care of prize of items , I just want devs reduce the frequence of upkeeps !!! That's a pain , I had 175 k last month, now , I have 100 k  lol
Title: Re: Are repairs fair ?
Post by: Miwiw on April 15, 2013, 11:25:15 pm
Quote from: Algarn_of_Nord on April 15, 2013, 11:08:41 pm
And some item cost too much( ex : arbalest : 1315 gold each round wtf , longbow , 777 gold ). I don't blame prizes , they are fine I think , but they have to put to 2% the chance to get repairs on an item, becauseif you pay 1315 or 777 gold each round ,  you'll become a peasant soon

See it this way:

Arba costs 1300 gold + bolts 350 (2 stacks) + 0slot 1h 300 gold (or 1 stack bolts + mace)
Long Bow 777 gold + arrows 700 (2 stacks) + 0slot 1h 300 gold (or 1 stack of arrows + 1slot wep)

Greatsword 883 gold, German Greatsword about 1100 gold
GLA 885 gold, Poleaxe 1000 gold, Heavy Lance 700 gold
Side Sword 575 gold + Heavy Round Shield 300 gold

Destrier 1600 gold, Large Warhorse 2400 gold

Seeing the weapons (+ bolts), ranged class pay more than melee classes or similar prices unless you take a horse, then you probably pay triple upkeep.
The only big difference is the armor gear you use!
How much do most Archers pay for their gear? 50-100 gold for boots? 100 gold for mittens? Head armor 0 - 200? Body Armor about 200?
That's the very lighest gear most infantry/cav players take, would ever take. Most got for medium armored gear which is at about 1,500 to 2,500 upkeep. :)

After all, considering the "higher" chance of arrows to break, all classes mostly pay a similar amount of upkeep. If you are lucky, you'll never pay that often and save lots of gold and get a high income, without doing much on the marketplace or selling a LP. ;)

After all, I still think upkeep is quite too low, and the chance of repair often gives me either no upkeep at all or 3-5 items... :P

edit: You lost 75k in total? That doesn't sound much at all, if I'd play with my usual gear and pay at least 1 item every second round, I'd go broke after a month too while having x2 or x3 most of the time (if you only consider the income). I got money stored, as I retired quite often, so I will actually never get broke. :)
Title: Re: Are repairs fair ?
Post by: bruce on April 15, 2013, 11:34:54 pm
It'd probably be less annoying if upkeep was more frequent but less costly and as a result, less random.
Title: Re: Are repairs fair ?
Post by: Riddaren on April 15, 2013, 11:45:34 pm
Don't complain about high upkeep as an archer.
You pay nothing compared to tincans or heavy cavalry but can still take on several of those guys alone.
Title: Re: Are repairs fair ?
Post by: Miwiw on April 15, 2013, 11:47:04 pm
All of us started with 100 gold. Some before upkeep was introduced, some afterwards, other restarted with a new char afterwards (like me). Yes, many of us got enough gold due to many generations, but we did those generations. When I was gen 7 I had 2 MW items and about 500k gold... now I'm close to gen 29, got about the same amount of gold and some MW more. ;)

That's why it's probably not bad to sell the very first LP and get the first MW in gen 4. Playing with cheap gear and doing marketplace stuff does ofc help.
Title: Re: Are repairs fair ?
Post by: Wrangham on April 15, 2013, 11:58:55 pm
Quote from: Algarn_of_Nord on April 15, 2013, 10:53:55 pm
my +3 longbow

You probably have minimal effective wpf for both archery and whatever sidearm you use, which increases the incidence of broken equipment. I don't have the numbers at my fingertips but I remember reading a Tears of Destiny post quoting break chance at something like "11% per minute for 1 wpf, 2.5% per minute for 140 wpf."

edit: remember each point of power draw is -14 effective wpf.
Title: Re: Are repairs fair ?
Post by: Rumblood on April 16, 2013, 12:07:48 am
Quote from: Algarn_of_Nord on April 15, 2013, 11:08:41 pm
And some item cost too much( ex : arbalest : 1315 gold each round wtf , longbow , 777 gold ). I don't blame prizes , they are fine I think , but they have to put to 2% the chance to get repairs on an item, becauseif you pay 1315 or 777 gold each round ,  you'll become a peasant soon

Bows and arrows break more often than any other equipment, so any direct comparison is invalid.
Title: Re: Are repairs fair ?
Post by: Jarold on April 16, 2013, 12:10:10 am
Are you an archer? I think archers have increased upkeep chance.
Title: Re: Are repairs fair ?
Post by: Micah on April 16, 2013, 12:33:11 am
Im currently playing my HA basically exclusively. Which means, i am an mounted  archer - as in : im paying upkeep for horse and bow+arrows ... and i managed to ballance income and upkeep so i dont lose gold anymore ( i lost some 100k when i started HA playing but i get along now ) could even slowly make gold if i wouldnt wear style/heavy gear when im in the mood ...

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Title: Re: Are repairs fair ?
Post by: Algarn on April 16, 2013, 12:34:25 am
Quote from: Riddaren on April 15, 2013, 11:45:34 pm
Don't complain about high upkeep as an archer.
You pay nothing compared to tincans or heavy cavalry but can still take on several of those guys alone.

1/ How can a silly archer kill a plated mounted tincan before eating a lance in the face ?
2/ Don't complain about repairs as archer , but I don't know how could I lose 75 k of gold :p

EDIT : Is there an other way to earn gold while playing without leeching ? I can stand to wear a short bow and a little hatchet , and leech all a round  :?
Title: Re: Are repairs fair ?
Post by: Miwiw on April 16, 2013, 12:56:32 am
Retire and sell LP. Use the marketplace. Don't play lottery. If you use 2 stacks of bodkins, drop one and use barbed or normal arrows instead. Saves a lot of gold and normal arrows do enough dmg if you hit low armored horses and peasants. :)
Title: Re: Are repairs fair ?
Post by: Algarn on April 16, 2013, 12:59:49 am
Yeah , but I think new players are scared to pay repairs after bought a shiny plate or a longbow : they become VERY quickly poor  :o
Title: Re: Are repairs fair ?
Post by: bruce on April 16, 2013, 01:03:32 am
You're right, the randomness of upkeep does hurt people with low cash reserves.
Title: Re: Are repairs fair ?
Post by: LordRichrich on April 16, 2013, 02:42:03 am
Do what I do to fund my expensive chars, have cheap alts.
Eg, Dagobert: Runs around with 45 - 50k of gear every round. He is supported by: _Templar 20k of gear. Which is still pretty good but enough to make money.

Probelm with archery is that it's difficult using lower level items as the difference sucks madly. IE, I could switch Dagobert to 19k of gear, mail and a bastard sword, he'd still do great. But if I had an archer, switching to anything below bodkins and a hornbow would be a pain. And that's still expensive.

So make an alt, I can give you a few good build/equipment ideas that are cheap but still effective if you lack ideas.
Title: Re: Are repairs fair ?
Post by: Dach on April 16, 2013, 04:44:25 am
the only thing not fair are the arrows... they have double the break chance of any other items...

So when you want to calculate upkeep with them you need to double the price.

So yeah if you play with 2 stack of bodkin it's 1416 gold of upkeep.  :wink:

Also because arrows have double break chance I guess the upkeep on them is worse than the actual figure... less random I could say.

So it's the same upkeep as cavalry pay to use a Courser or Arabian.

Title: Re: Are repairs fair ?
Post by: LordLargos on April 16, 2013, 06:49:11 am
Quote from: Algarn_of_Nord on April 15, 2013, 10:53:55 pm
I don't know why , but I know how I lost 60k since 3 weeks : by repairing my +3 longbow each round ... And if I answer if a cav gains money , that's  a yes , whereas they have 50 body armor + cavalry sword + horse to pay ... I really wonder if repair system is usefull and helpfull for new guys ...

Discuss

EDIT : I think that's bullshit , because I saw 5 plated chargers in the same round on the EU 4 , and neither got repairs .
Don't know where you got cav earning money, I'm pretty sure change flys out of my pocket every stride my horse takes.
You also have to realize even after paying mounds of gold all it takes is one(2 for San idk why probably just a boss)throwing lance to kill someone no matter what. As an archer you can just turn those horses into a unicorn or hide behind a tree and it will make cav irrelevant.
Title: Re: Are repairs fair ?
Post by: Overdriven on April 16, 2013, 07:46:09 am
Quote from: Riddaren on April 15, 2013, 11:45:34 pm
Don't complain about high upkeep as an archer.
You pay nothing compared to tincans or heavy cavalry but can still take on several of those guys alone.

Not true. The increased breakage of arrows raises the upkeep of an archer significantly. Now HA is truly bank breaking...
Title: Re: Are repairs fair ?
Post by: ArysOakheart on April 16, 2013, 08:07:14 am
I was losing money wearing these items.

Straw hat
Red Tunic
Leather gloves
Blue Hose
+3 Nomad bow
2 stacks of Bodkins
Mace

I've now switched to Tatar Arrows and a Cudgel, and i'm now making money (at least in the past day, which could be contributed to a higher multiplier than usual).
Title: Re: Are repairs fair ?
Post by: Elmetiacos on April 16, 2013, 11:57:56 am
Quote from: Algarn_of_Nord on April 15, 2013, 11:08:41 pm
And some item cost too much( ex : arbalest : 1315 gold each round wtf , longbow , 777 gold ). I don't blame prizes , they are fine I think , but they have to put to 2% the chance to get repairs on an item, becauseif you pay 1315 or 777 gold each round ,  you'll become a peasant soon
The problem for the devs is balancing the effectiveness of missile weapons against their ubiquity. Lots of us remember the days of "Oh, and I may as well take a crossbow too" when all the melee fighters (who weren't already throwers) added a crossbow with 1 wpf and the game turned into a straight FPS for the first two minutes of any battle, with the actual melee fighting simply a mopping up of whichever side had lost the firefight. Crossbows can spoil the game, as can too many archers or archer hybrids so the devs must at the same time discourage shooters while not making them so weak nobody ever plays one.
Title: Re: Are repairs fair ?
Post by: Fuma Kotaro on April 16, 2013, 01:29:23 pm
algarn just go on siege take a +3 torch a +3 worn robe a +3 felt hat then youve 22 gold upkeep in total so you cant lose gold and you can still be on  the upper side of the scoreboard quite easy
Title: Re: Are repairs fair ?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on April 16, 2013, 06:02:16 pm
most of us all started in the same boat.  either save up some more money before using your full suit of armor and top tier weapons, use lighter armor, use crappier weapons and loot from the battlefield, or play the marketplace.

I always was a big believer in selling my heirloom point, and buying a +1 for cheaper.  As a 13th gen veteran (level 33 again) lancer cavalry, I've always had issues paying for my upkeep, but I always stayed on top of it by selling looms, or going on foot.  I honestly don't think I've had to go footman since my first or 2nd generation. 

I also have an alt that makes money (that I'm using to keep retiring for looms) that I could transfer to my main if I ever needed to.  I have potentially 3,700 gold upkeep I could pay in a round, and I was averaging about 40,000 gold that it cost me to retire a char (but that included the first 10 or so levels I was on foot).

What's your total potential upkeep for a round?
Title: Re: Are repairs fair ?
Post by: Zanze on April 16, 2013, 06:15:03 pm
You are right, upkeep is not fair at all.

Have every new player join the game where battle consists of 30-100 people in full plate and plated chargers murdering each other. That just screams fairness.

Manage your equipment better. If you want to use a longbow and 2 pairs of bodkins, keep in mind you are using the highest level of archery gear available. Of course it will be expensive. Lower down your other gear in response to that if necessary. Most other archers use no gloves, no helmet, leather armor, and leather boots. They seem fine.

What I normally due on my archer alt is switch up the arrows between barbed and bodkins. When I see many players walking around heavily armored, I switch to bodkins. Otherwise I used barbed arrows. You make stupid amounts of money using barbed instead of bodkins. I even use light mail armor instead of the leather everyone else does.
Title: Re: Are repairs fair ?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on April 16, 2013, 06:26:04 pm
What's your archer alt's name Zan?  Purely for research purposes
Title: Re: Are repairs fair ?
Post by: Dach on April 16, 2013, 07:37:32 pm
Quote from: ArysOakheart on April 16, 2013, 08:07:14 am
I was losing money wearing these items.

Straw hat
Red Tunic
Leather gloves
Blue Hose
+3 Nomad bow
2 stacks of Bodkins
Mace

I've now switched to Tatar Arrows and a Cudgel, and i'm now making money (at least in the past day, which could be contributed to a higher multiplier than usual).

See my post above...  :wink:
Title: Re: Are repairs fair ?
Post by: Latvian on April 16, 2013, 07:47:10 pm
nerf upkeep   i lost about 600-700k playing heavy 2h cav untill i got to lvl 34
Title: Re: Are repairs fair ?
Post by: FleetFox on April 16, 2013, 07:52:48 pm
Quote from: Latvian_Knight on April 16, 2013, 07:47:10 pm
nerf upkeep   i lost about 600-700k playing heavy 2h cav untill i got to lvl 34

lol


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