cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Ronin on March 12, 2013, 02:15:41 pm

Title: Heavy Cavalry
Post by: Ronin on March 12, 2013, 02:15:41 pm

They do not worth the repair cost imo.

(click to show/hide)

There aren't many guys riding heavy horses. Well, as I tried riding a champion mamluk horse (with a style before stats principle), I find it less useful and more team-bump oriented than the destrier. As if the only good thing it can do was absorbing hits like a tank (was useful against HA). Destrier has better offensive capabilites than those heavy horses most of the time. As there are teammates blocking your way all the time, destrier's maneuverability can be much more useful to avoid bumping teammates and hitting the enemy when necessary. Destrier's charge damage is also higher than the heavy horses as it have a better speed.

Now heavy horses have their usefulness actually. They have much better defensive capabilities, but that's all of it. A cavalry, is class based on offense (exploiting the weak spots among the enemy lines), defensive cavalry is bound to be less successive than an offensive cavalry. Yet those heavy horses do cost much more. A plated charger costs nearly the 3 times of a destrier, but is actually less useful than a destrier.

I'm not saying heavy horses are bad, they have their place. Maybe they are more suited for a high agi build (dedicated bumper, maybe something like a build of 9-27), or a typical Horse xbow. I'm not really sure. Their cost should be high, we wouldn't want too many people using them (would ruin the fun probably).

But they should cost less! Not that much less, but a bit less actually. Their usefulness is not worth the 4k repair. Something between 2k-3k would be more suited.

Title: Re: Heavy Cavalry
Post by: Ronin on March 15, 2013, 07:03:40 pm

Bump (pun intended)

Title: Re: Heavy Cavalry
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on March 15, 2013, 07:30:45 pm

I honestly think it's fine the way it is.  I also don't think they're worth the repair cost or the cost, but they are worthwhile in strategus.  They take hits like a champ.  In a "round based" game like battle mode, I could never justify using them for the cost (or the slow speed), but it's easy to justify using them in strategus when there's no 'round' and the longer you are alive the better.

In battle mode I prefer more offensive horses (destrier, courser, arabian) because of their speed/maneuver more than horses that can tank.  But that's mainly because if I make one mistake I'm going to probably lose my horse, but it's not that long until the next round :P

The terrible speed of all but one (or maybe two now with new horses) of the armored horses also make the heavy lance even more useless than it is on a faster horse.   But thankfully I (and a lot of others) no longer use the heavy glance.

Title: Re: Heavy Cavalry
Post by: oohillac on March 15, 2013, 08:20:20 pm

This is incredibly playstyle-dependent.  Heavy horses can be extremely powerful in the right hands.

Title: Re: Heavy Cavalry
Post by: Ronin on March 15, 2013, 08:20:43 pm

Actually I always think heavy horses were more suited for 1h cav or 2h cav, rather than lancers. A lancer is better as a light cavalry, that they gain more benefit (comparably) from the speed bonus and they need more hit-run tactics to be viable. Heavy lance + heavy horse is the worst thing to do of course.

You say they are good at taking damage. This is true, already mentioned that in OP. The problem is, that is the only thing they are good at. This ability is not that useful for an offensive class. It is simply better to ride a destrier for better speed+manuever+bump damage. Yes, a destrier does more bump damage than a heavy horse. Not to mention idiotic infantry who are circling around the teammates, making manuever much much much more vital not to teambump.

While I agree their stats are better this way (you have to take 9-10 riding players into account too), I think their cost is too damn high. I mean, their cost should still be high but not that much high. As for the strategus, I believe their cost is still a big issue. Would you prefer 10 charger or 40-50 rouncey (or 20-30 destriers) for your army?

Title: Re: Heavy Cavalry
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on March 15, 2013, 08:34:49 pm

Well destrier charge is 33, the armored horses all have 36 or higher charge...so wrong there.

As for speed, destrier is 42, barded warhorse is 41, padded warhorse 42, warhorse 41, large warhorse 40.  Those are the only armored horses I would ever buy for a strategus army.
Costs are:  destrier 297.15, barded warhorse 298.20, warhorse 414.75, large warhorse 437.85, padded warhorse 522.90

I personally would rather have a destrier in strategus than an armored horse, and would never really want to use an armored horse on battle servers in cRPG with a lance (too slow for the damage), but I don't mind armored horses in strategus.

Title: Re: Heavy Cavalry
Post by: Ronin on March 15, 2013, 09:27:29 pm

By the way, speed also matters in charge damage. A plated charger have 46 charge, but 35 speed. Destrier has 33 charge, but 42 speed. I don't really know how to calculate the damage, but plated charger is not a horse that is hitting like a truck as it sounds.

Quote

As for speed, destrier is 42, barded warhorse is 41, padded warhorse 42, warhorse 41, large warhorse 40.  Those are the only armored horses I would ever buy for a strategus army.

You just said it. Higher horses have no place in strategus, because of their usefulness/cost ratio.

They don't have much place in battle servers too. They can be useful if you know how to use them for sure, but they will eat the gold in your pocket like there's no tomorrow. I mean like there's no tomorrow.

Title: Re: Heavy Cavalry
Post by: Casimir on March 15, 2013, 11:22:26 pm

Situational, Warhorse and low tier armoured horses are the best. Which is in line with armours but not weapons, i think that's the right way.

Title: Re: Heavy Cavalry
Post by: BADPLAYER_old2 on March 16, 2013, 11:13:06 am

Quote from: Ronin on March 12, 2013, 02:15:41 pm

They do not worth the repair cost imo.

(click to show/hide)

There aren't many guys riding heavy horses. Well, as I tried riding a champion mamluk horse (with a style before stats principle), I find it less useful and more team-bump oriented than the destrier. As if the only good thing it can do was absorbing hits like a tank (was useful against HA). Destrier has better offensive capabilites than those heavy horses most of the time. As there are teammates blocking your way all the time, destrier's maneuverability can be much more useful to avoid bumping teammates and hitting the enemy when necessary. Destrier's charge damage is also higher than the heavy horses as it have a better speed.

Now heavy horses have their usefulness actually. They have much better defensive capabilities, but that's all of it. A cavalry, is class based on offense (exploiting the weak spots among the enemy lines), defensive cavalry is bound to be less successive than an offensive cavalry. Yet those heavy horses do cost much more. A plated charger costs nearly the 3 times of a destrier, but is actually less useful than a destrier.

I'm not saying heavy horses are bad, they have their place. Maybe they are more suited for a high agi build (dedicated bumper, maybe something like a build of 9-27), or a typical Horse xbow. I'm not really sure. Their cost should be high, we wouldn't want too many people using them (would ruin the fun probably).

But they should cost less! Not that much less, but a bit less actually. Their usefulness is not worth the 4k repair. Something between 2k-3k would be more suited.

Heavy Horses being tanks means they are ridiculously strong for good cavalry players who don't get hit often, a good cavalry player on a destrier has his horse killed in 3-5~ arrows or so, the same guy on a warhorse/cataphract and suddenly it requires 8+ arrows, not to mention the fact that the bump damage increase is actually not insignificant, it is more than a destrier or atleast on par for cataphract and above, so if you bump someone at the same time as you stab them with your lance, which you should be doing most of the time, you can often kill people from full health in one go which sure you can do with lighter horses too but why would you when you can use a horse where the only reason it dies is either cause you fucked up bad or your team lost bad, both of which can be blamed on yourself.

I would rather all horses have their stats changed so they have considerably less armour (10-20) across the board, charge damage reduced to atleast 1/2 across the board too and then a general 1-2 speed/manuever buff for all horses to compensate, with obviously the majority only being increased by only 1 than 2 which would be reserved for the current horses that aren't ever used.

Anyone who believes the lighter horses are better than the heavier ones is just flat out not very good.
Also you can maintain 80-100k~ gear cost without losing money if you have a constant x5, which as heavy cavalry is not hard so the price does not need a decrease.

Title: Re: Heavy Cavalry
Post by: Gurnisson on March 16, 2013, 12:46:38 pm

Quote from: BADPLAYER on March 16, 2013, 11:13:06 am

Anyone who believes the lighter horses are better than the heavier ones is just flat out not very good.

Depends on your playstyle. I prefer lighter ones myself. Destrier, best horse!

Title: Re: Heavy Cavalry
Post by: Casimir on March 16, 2013, 04:20:56 pm

Quote from: Gurnisson on March 16, 2013, 12:46:38 pm

Depends on your playstyle. I prefer lighter ones myself. Destrier, best horse!

You know Warhorse shits on destrier.

Title: Re: Heavy Cavalry
Post by: korppis on March 19, 2013, 10:00:18 am

I'd actually love to see plated charger being able to just charge through spears instead of getting completely stopped by a single level 1 peasant with a pitchfork. Maybe give it a slight speed decrease instead when they hit a spear so it won't be too op. The heavy cav sure doesn't seem worth the repairs, they are just way too easy to dodge and that armor doesn't help at all when they are easily stopped by anyone with a stick (even if that armor would soak all the damage). I'm all for seeing more variety of horses in the battle and plated charger seems almost extinct.

Title: Re: Heavy Cavalry
Post by: Ronin on March 19, 2013, 01:08:38 pm

It seems that this thread served it's purpose. Devs took this issue into consideration. I am thankful. Maybe it's luck, but at least half of my suggestions are implemented to the game somehow.

What do you think about the current situation? Light horses (including destrier) do much less charge damage than before, which makes heavy cavalry more charge oriented. Also:
- the price of mamluk horse is decreased
- speed of charger is increased
- plated charger is overall better

Those are the changes I have seen on the first sight.

Title: Re: Heavy Cavalry
Post by: Shemaforash on March 19, 2013, 02:17:39 pm

I really don't think the cav patch was bad (as a cavalry) But from the perspective (as a cavalry) I'll still be mad about it :D

Good job solving it though, buffing heavier horses by indirectly nerfing lighter ones.