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cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Grumpy_Nic on February 18, 2013, 10:17:01 am

Title: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on February 18, 2013, 10:17:01 am
Hello all,

I do not know if this is for all ranged, I've noticed it with my xbow char.

While having the xbow ready to fire, jumping is not possible and does not cancel the aiming.
- We had jumpshooting a while ago - dont care for that, dont need it back.
- Jumping used to cancel the aim but you were able to jump - the best solution imo.
- Then there was this strange "if you jump your aim is still there but you detonate in the ground" feature - pretty much the worst (I thought back then)
- Now when you aim you cannot jump at all - it is as if the button doesnt work

The current "solution" is very poor. Is there any intention to bring back one of the other things? I dont know if this is a thing that was done on purpose to limit ranged movement further or it just "happened", so I wont complain yet but would welcome an official answer.

Thanks & Best Regards

Grumpy_Nic
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: bavvoz on February 18, 2013, 11:03:13 am
Easiest fix could be to open a melee server and stop nerfing ranged. Dont like getting shot, then head to melee server or shut up :)
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on February 18, 2013, 11:04:56 am
If this change is true, then I have one more reason not to play xbower again. I loved jumping to fire over low stone walls and heashotting people who were trying to stab you with melee weapons on the other side.

Just make xbows wildly innacurate when you are in the air. Jumping xbow shots are only good if you are dodging cav then firing, or using specific terrain advantages that are only possible on a handful of maps.

Using high agility, you can bait cavalry into charging you then leaping out of the way at the last second. Holding your aim or faking reload with a crossbow increases your baiting - cav will try and rush you down before you reload or fire. This is a tactic I used and enjoyed on many open maps where xbow has no terrain to hide and reload with.
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on February 18, 2013, 12:15:56 pm
If this change is true, then I have one more reason not to play xbower again. I loved jumping to fire over low stone walls and heashotting people who were trying to stab you with melee weapons on the other side.

Just make xbows wildly innacurate when you are in the air. Jumping xbow shots are only good if you are dodging cav then firing, or using specific terrain advantages that are only possible on a handful of maps.

Using high agility, you can bait cavalry into charging you then leaping out of the way at the last second. Holding your aim or faking reload with a crossbow increases your baiting - cav will try and rush you down before you reload or fire. This is a tactic I used and enjoyed on many open maps where xbow has no terrain to hide and reload with.

Jumpshooting is not possible for quite a while now and I'm fine with that. But removing jumping altogether (while aiming) is the worst thing they could've done. Next thing is they increase bolt weight even further.
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: EyeBeat on February 18, 2013, 03:57:09 pm
I can care less about jump shooting with a xbow.  They need to remove reloading while in the air though...  Unrealistic as hell and unneeded.
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on February 18, 2013, 04:01:21 pm
I can care less about jump shooting with a xbow.  They need to remove reloading while in the air though...  Unrealistic as hell and unneeded.

Reloading while in the air? I have no idea what you mean to be honest.
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on February 18, 2013, 04:40:40 pm
If you are running with a crossbow and jump, you can start reloading before your character hits the ground. This and the fact that you can start moving before the end of your reload animation make you a little bit more mobile during reload.
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: Ubereem on February 18, 2013, 05:28:03 pm
all i know is there are none of these EU problems on NA2 siege. i swear 90% of all mod changes/nerfs are derive from EU1 battle. FYI when I read all these "nerf this nerf that" threads they have nothing to do with siege for the most part, these are battle problems. so please only nerf and make the game less fun for battle, and not for siege
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on February 18, 2013, 05:30:29 pm
If you are running with a crossbow and jump, you can start reloading before your character hits the ground. This and the fact that you can start moving before the end of your reload animation make you a little bit more mobile during reload.

I'm sorry to tell you but this has been removed also quite some time ago. When you jump you cannot start reloading, after landing there is a small delay before you can start to reload. The animation of reloading will cancel if you move before the string is fully drawn, if you move after this the reloading will finish because you can put the bolt into the xbow with one hand and dont have to remain stationary. But I think even this has been reduced slightly.

So this does not apply anymore.
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: Rumblood on February 18, 2013, 05:30:47 pm
Hello all,

I do not know if this is for all ranged, I've noticed it with my xbow char.

While having the xbow ready to fire, jumping is not possible and does not cancel the aiming.
- We had jumpshooting a while ago - dont care for that, dont need it back.
- Jumping used to cancel the aim but you were able to jump - the best solution imo.
- Then there was this strange "if you jump your aim is still there but you detonate in the ground" feature - pretty much the worst (I thought back then)
- Now when you aim you cannot jump at all - it is as if the button doesnt work

The current "solution" is very poor. Is there any intention to bring back one of the other things? I dont know if this is a thing that was done on purpose to limit ranged movement further or it just "happened", so I wont complain yet but would welcome an official answer.

Thanks & Best Regards

Grumpy_Nic

Exactly.
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: SirCymro_Crusader on February 18, 2013, 06:33:22 pm
I miss jump shooting, simply because its that much harder to kill cavalry now :3 the jump shot was my anti-cav tactic, now its just....death
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: Adam_Bomb on February 18, 2013, 06:53:13 pm
Jump shots etc still work on NA...
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: Dach on February 18, 2013, 08:40:36 pm
NA server don't have the new change they've been testing for quite a while now.

Also why don't you make every server melee only right now... that will save you the trouble of trying to nerf ranged even more.  :rolleyes:

Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: Rumblood on February 18, 2013, 09:25:47 pm
NA server don't have the new change they've been testing for quite a while now.

Also why don't you make every server melee only right now... that will save you the trouble of trying to nerf ranged even more.  :rolleyes:

Yes it does. If you use WSE2, you can't jump while you have a ranged missile cocked. You do this weird sink into the ground thing instead. If you don't use WSE2, you still can.
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: Digglez on February 18, 2013, 10:38:37 pm
bows & xbows dont really have a good case against nerfing jump shooting. but removing jump throwing is huge uncalled for nerf.

Have Dev's ever seen an Olympic javelin throw or Baseball outfielder do a big throw?  They leap/jump into their throws
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: Dan lol on February 19, 2013, 04:08:40 am
FUCK DIGGLES, BUT IF I CANT JUMP AND SCREAM KOBE OVER VENT THEN WHY BOTHER THROWING AT ALL
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: isatis on February 19, 2013, 04:49:37 am
Funny thing, you can still fall and shoot :P

at least I can still be epic!!
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: To Kill A Dead Horse on February 19, 2013, 05:15:53 am
As an actual thrower for track I can safely say that jumping does make you throw farther, and also using strech reflexes helps a lot too.
Stop trying to nerf bows + x-bows if you just end up ruining throwing more than other ranged.
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on February 19, 2013, 10:34:55 am
Just to get back to topic, this is not about jumpshooting.

The problem is, if you you are taking aim and press the jump button, nothing happens. This is just another nerf to mobility imo. I accept the fact that jumpshooting is not working, but taking the ability to jump is a bit harsh. Jumping should work but should cancel the aim as it was. When infantry is able to jump and feint in mid air, why cant I jump and cancel my aim that way.
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on February 19, 2013, 11:20:39 am
Faking  a shot then jumping out of the horse's path is a really important part of playing ranged against a cavalry. Force ranged to re-draw their weapon if they jump, but don't remove the ability for ranged to "feint" by leaping out of the swing at the last second.

If an archer or crossbower is that close and hasn't changed weapons yet, they are usually screwed anyway. This change will make them sitting ducks to most melee players.
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: Ubereem on February 19, 2013, 10:53:48 pm

Have Dev's ever seen an Olympic javelin throw or Baseball outfielder do a big throw?  They leap/jump into their throws

Not really, maybe their body inertia brings them off the ground after the throw but thats about it. Trust me they are still grounded when releasing said throw, if they weren't they would have shit for power/distance

As an actual thrower for track I can safely say that jumping does make you throw farther, and also using strech reflexes helps a lot too.

So you're telling us all that your coach tells you to jump during or after your throw? lol right, also you're talking about running and throwing not standing still and throwing, big difference.

But being limber does help, it helps generate leverage from your bodies many lever systems. Length factors in as well. As the longer your levers are the more distance they will travel(mostly in arc formation, like a circle), which usually equals higher velocity/speed. Flexibility allows your levers to travel farther.

This is the reason why the flamberge does more damage than a katana. Sure the katana is faster but is also slower. Using a 2 lever system, with one being your arm and the other being the sword, we can determine that the flamberge will have a higher actual swing speed than the katana. Note there must be a balance though as too long is bad. A baseball bat, sword, track javelin, boxers punch etc etc all have found their balance. You want maximum length and weight that user can handle to achieve maximum power/speed.

Length of the levers * distance traveled * using set force = swing speed
(not an actual equation lol but it' something similar)



Edit: longest edit ever :!:
 
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: Wallace_Ritchie on February 20, 2013, 07:14:15 am
Didn't read. Agree with OP. Not ranged. (throwing = fucked) Shielder, give it back to archers. Who cares? Arrows weigh a lot. *Funny roleplay*
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: OpenPalm on February 20, 2013, 04:38:07 pm
Jump throwing my h axes is gone... :(
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on February 24, 2013, 10:06:36 am
Bump until somebody gives a fuck.
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: NJ_Legion_Icedtea on February 24, 2013, 04:41:05 pm
agreed, scariest shit seeing cav charge at you knowing you cant hold your aim then jump out the way! would like to see what melee classes thought if jumping was removed for them when holding a swing
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: Swaggart on February 24, 2013, 08:21:04 pm
lol... old thread
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: To Kill A Dead Horse on March 27, 2013, 02:20:42 am
Not really, maybe their body inertia brings them off the ground after the throw but thats about it. Trust me they are still grounded when releasing said throw, if they weren't they would have shit for power/distance

So you're telling us all that your coach tells you to jump during or after your throw? lol right, also you're talking about running and throwing not standing still and throwing, big difference.

In the case of shot put you would be taught to explode when you finish (if you know what I mean), and when you do that you jump to push the shot put farther than you would have without jumping out of the position you are throwing from.

Javelin is a beast of its own but it comes down to exploding as you throw (A.K.A. jumping) to get more power behind the jav, and if you keep your feet grounded the jav isn't going to go as far.


*EDIT* I necro'ed this thread
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: LordLargos on March 27, 2013, 08:18:10 am
Just another way step for 2h master race. Why was this brought back up anyways?
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: Tindel on March 27, 2013, 08:53:14 am
Maybe it was done for security reasons?

Management got to many reports of accidents and misfires because safety regulations was not being followed in the handling of crossbows with live ammunition.

In the interest to save lives and cut down on accidents they have now forbidden everyone to jump while having their crossbow ready to fire.
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: Molly on March 27, 2013, 09:00:39 am
Hardly anyone argues about xbow and bow not being able to jump-shoot...

...but it broke throwing.  :cry:
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: Leesin on March 27, 2013, 11:28:14 am
I am glad they removed the whole jump shooting bullshit, mainly because it was insanely good against cavalry, where as if you are a ranged build and get caught out by cavalry who reaches you, you deserve to be at a disadvantage. Even vs Infantry it should be the same case, it was a part of how "kiting" worked, not so much for xbow of course but I imagine they might all be connected so if bows have to suffer the jumpshot disable, perhaps xbow and throwing do too, maybe they can't seperate the code?. Either way I wouldn't want jumpshot back for xbow if it meant bows got it back too, throwers should also suffer vs cav.

And as a chance to use a cool gif, this is what I wanted to do to those elite jump shooting archers

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: Aiyasha on March 27, 2013, 11:32:30 am
I am glad they removed the whole jump shooting bullshit, mainly because it was insanely good against cavalry, where as if you are a ranged build and get caught out by cavalry who reaches you, you deserve to be at a disadvantage. Even vs Infantry it should be the same case, it was a part of how "kiting" worked, not so much for xbow of course but I imagine they might all be connected so if bows have to suffer the jumpshot disable, perhaps xbow and throwing do too, maybe they can't seperate the code?. Either way I wouldn't want jumpshot back for xbow if it meant bows got it back too, throwers should also suffer vs cav.

And as a chance to use a cool gif, this is what I wanted to do to those elite jump shooting archers

Yeah, because it takes archers at least four arrows with 6 pd and MW longbow to take down a horse but it takes cav one pass to kill an archer so of course we should just be rooted to the spot as soon as cav gets there since we've clearly fucked up.

I'm pretty sure people won't be happy with archery nerfs until we spawn and are no longer allowed to move.
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: Molly on March 27, 2013, 04:06:20 pm
I argue that thrower deserve a little extra in form of a jump-shot since they are always way closer to the fight than any other ranged. Besides kiting never been an issue with thrower. Then there is the very limited ammunition and the lack of accuracy (only reason some throwers are quite accurate is skill!).

All that makes me believe that thrower are a special case and can't be put into the same pot as archer and xbow.


GIVE THROWERS THE JUMP-SHOT BACK!

Pretty please  :oops:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: Thedric on March 27, 2013, 04:53:54 pm
Yeah, because it takes archers at least four arrows with 6 pd and MW longbow to take down a horse but it takes cav one pass to kill an archer so of course we should just be rooted to the spot as soon as cav gets there since we've clearly fucked up.

I'm pretty sure people won't be happy with archery nerfs until we spawn and are no longer allowed to move.

And yet EU1 is full of archers, despite all the nerfs. Archers are not supposed to survive a cavalry charge, I mean c'mon, the whole point of cav is to kill archers and they cant do that if youre jumping out of the way and shooting horse/rider in the back. The archers of today are doing pretty good by sticking together on a hill and covering each other from cav charges and small inf groups. Thats the way it should be imho.

Anyway, despite what you think archery is not godmode, you shouldnt be able to fight inf, dodge cav and still do ridiculous damage from a distance.
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: Aiyasha on March 27, 2013, 05:28:30 pm
And yet EU1 is full of archers, despite all the nerfs. Archers are not supposed to survive a cavalry charge, I mean c'mon, the whole point of cav is to kill archers and they cant do that if youre jumping out of the way and shooting horse/rider in the back. The archers of today are doing pretty good by sticking together on a hill and covering each other from cav charges and small inf groups. Thats the way it should be imho.

Anyway, despite what you think archery is not godmode, you shouldnt be able to fight inf, dodge cav and still do ridiculous damage from a distance.

Who decided that archers should be rendered defenseless and die the second cavalry reach them? If the whole point of cav is to counter archers, how come they do so well against infantry too? Doesn't that mean infantry should beat cav every time?

The biggest flaw in your argument, though, is saying that archers are doing good by sticking together. That's part of the problem. Archery has been nerfed to such a point that the only way to remain viable is to cluster together as many as possible and fend off any attackers that way. Meanwhile you've got cav and infantry (especially agility built) that are perfectly capable of playing without the help of anyone else assuming they don't run in to a mob of people.

Unfortunately, archery hasn't been god-mode for several years. Cavalry has always held that torch with the ability to kite with long lances and still remain combat effective when dehorsed.
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: Juhanius on March 27, 2013, 09:16:19 pm
I can still jump and shoot. It is just matter of tecnique 8-)
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: Thedric on March 27, 2013, 11:03:44 pm
Who decided that archers should be rendered defenseless and die the second cavalry reach them? If the whole point of cav is to counter archers, how come they do so well against infantry too? Doesn't that mean infantry should beat cav every time?

The biggest flaw in your argument, though, is saying that archers are doing good by sticking together. That's part of the problem. Archery has been nerfed to such a point that the only way to remain viable is to cluster together as many as possible and fend off any attackers that way. Meanwhile you've got cav and infantry (especially agility built) that are perfectly capable of playing without the help of anyone else assuming they don't run in to a mob of people.

Unfortunately, archery hasn't been god-mode for several years. Cavalry has always held that torch with the ability to kite with long lances and still remain combat effective when dehorsed.

I dont know why you always compare yourself to inf and cav  :?  Archers are a support class designed to kill at a distance, not to do cartwheels around cav or duel with inf, ffs youre not legolas. You dont see pikemen running around trying to solo 2h or shielders do you?

Besides, with all that jumping it was virtually impossible to kill archers 1 on 1 as cav (unless you surprise them from behind, which works on every class). You needed something like a warhorse to have a decent chance. Ive had many a horse killed underneath me while learning that lesson.

And archers are not rendered defenseless when faced with cav, you have your 0-slot 1h. In case it escaped you cav are supposed to be effective vs all kinds of inf (except spearmen ofc), since a horse cost 1300+ in upkeep and is vulnerable to archers until that split second moment when it actually reachers you.
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: Gurnisson on March 28, 2013, 04:38:22 am
Yeah, because it takes archers at least four arrows with 6 pd and MW longbow to take down a horse but it takes cav one pass to kill an archer so of course we should just be rooted to the spot as soon as cav gets there since we've clearly fucked up.

I usually only use 2-4 arrows on cavalry, 1-2 with headshots, and that's with a rus bow. How many couches or full speed lance thrusts with a following bump do I need on archers in rags? Mostly 2...

Only when cavalry outnumbers archers, they'll stomp them. Otherwise the archers will stomp the cavalry. They both feed of eachother, the numbers and skill of the players decide which one will win.
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: Leesin on March 29, 2013, 01:09:12 pm
Yeah, because it takes archers at least four arrows with 6 pd and MW longbow to take down a horse but it takes cav one pass to kill an archer so of course we should just be rooted to the spot as soon as cav gets there since we've clearly fucked up.

I'm pretty sure people won't be happy with archery nerfs until we spawn and are no longer allowed to move.

Rooted to the spot? you know you can dodge the horse THEN ready an arrow, I've seen Woodland do it effectively time after time, just because jump shooting is disabled doesn't mean you have to stand on the spot and die. I also never said Archers should be nerfed further did I? as it is right now I feel Archers are as balanced as they have ever been. But yeah, if a cav reaches you in melee range then you deserve to be at a disadvantage, rather than actually still be at an advantage like you were when jump shooting was viable. Being at a disadvantage doesn't always spell death.

Btw it only takes cav one pass to kill you if you aren't aware of your surroundings and are too focused on whatever it is you're shooting at, which is another good reason to play in groups and use communication.
Title: Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
Post by: XyNox on March 29, 2013, 02:58:02 pm
Aiyasha is right actually. Cav can faceroll archers in a one on one if they know what they are doing. Archers simply dont have enough mobility now to do anything against it. If you try to do dodge a horse that can cover a 6m area in front of him but you are limited to walk 3m by the time cav is in front of your face, you die. If cav is actually bad enough to miss a run, no problem, he just turns around and tries again.

Exaclty like Aiyasha said, EVERY class is better when piled up with the difference that most classes are still effective on their own. The only way to survive as an archer now adays is when you get inf support who is willing to be glued on your ass the whole round. Needless to say that doesnt happen because they are all just running off enjoying the game without the need to be supported. Jumpshooting is not the real issue here, it is the amateurish dev decision to blanket ban mobility for archers as a whole instead of only adressing those parts that actually needed a rework, i.e. kiting. But since devs dont have to deal with daily ragethreads about archers anymore I hardly expect them to give a fuck about such matters.