cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Macropus on February 14, 2013, 01:04:32 pm

Title: Eternal thread about ranged
Post by: Macropus on February 14, 2013, 01:04:32 pm
There have been several threads about different aspects of ranged playstyle and it's place in the game balance. Some of them got closed or deleted, but people still want to discuss it, so let it be a permanent thread for that.
[Feel free to whine here!]
Well, let me begin:

IMO ranged should get approximately +20-30% points for shooting. Getting valour for shooting is much harder than for being (for example) a shielder like me. And it's not about "ranged are unhonorable dicks and only shiny knights should get valour", let's skip the RP part - valour is a way of rewarding skill, and now it's just unbalanced. It's easy to prove: Bagge is much more skilled in archery than me in melee, but he still doesn't get valour as often as I do. Simple as that.

Also, did anyone think about why we have so much archers on public servers, but quite few of them on Strategus? I can't come up with any reasonable explanation.


Title: Re: Eternal thread about ranged
Post by: En_Dotter on February 14, 2013, 01:29:13 pm
I killed 6 people in one ound of battle (2 hs) and it was ~12:12 total players. Didnt get valour and i was the worm of the match... Kinda sucks. I think it takes some skillz to to kill ppl with ranged and that the kills are not team mates. ;)
Title: Re: Eternal thread about ranged
Post by: Prpavi on February 14, 2013, 01:31:01 pm
I think ranged is in for and overdue BUFF!!!1!
Title: Re: Eternal thread about ranged
Post by: BlueKnight on February 14, 2013, 01:46:21 pm
Also, did anyone think about why we have so much archers on public servers, but quite few of them on Strategus? I can't come up with any reasonable explanation.
Same amount of archers but moreeeee infantry and you feel like you are getting shot less. Also super heavy super armours of doooom so archers deal less damage.

It's also about spawning. Ex. if EU1 had 100 players online (:?), after those 80 (melee+cav) guys died, there would be still like ~10 archers in the end and everybody would be unhappy cuz in the end it's archurfest. During strat battles, inf keeps spawning and overall percentage of archers among people who are alive is low.

Currently EU1 is 30 vs 30 with 6-7 archers in each team and ~4-7 cav each team (approx. + depends on map).
Title: Re: Eternal thread about ranged
Post by: Gurnisson on February 14, 2013, 01:48:55 pm
Better rewards for archers means more archers. Please no. :P
Title: Re: Eternal thread about ranged
Post by: Kafein on February 14, 2013, 01:51:19 pm
How is such a thread eternal ? Fix archery, no more threads.
Title: Re: Eternal thread about ranged
Post by: Prpavi on February 14, 2013, 01:56:47 pm
What is there to discuss, theres too much of them, xbow: the need a skill similar to PD, 100 pierce Arba gimme a break... archers: regular ones are shit loomed/high lvl ones are way too powerfull and accurate, throwers get nerfed looool!

balance has never been worse.

Title: Re: Eternal thread about ranged
Post by: Macropus on February 14, 2013, 02:03:54 pm
balance has never been worse.
And I think it has never been better, not perfect ofc, but still very good.
What still feels unbalanced to me is archery. Xbows have huge upkeep costs if used without enough wpf, so it's okay for me.
And yes, buff unloomed archers! I can fight decently with unloomed shielder or 2h, but on my STF archer I totally suck.
(And yes, this whole thread is about lobbying for my stf archer).
Title: Re: Eternal thread about ranged
Post by: jtobiasm on February 14, 2013, 02:04:01 pm
archers: regular ones are shit loomed/high lvl ones are way too powerfull and accurate,

18/24 @ 30 and 18/24 @ 31,32,33,34 and 35 is what I see most of the time. How on earth are they more powerful and more accurate? They only get more athletics and power strike. Only difference between low level archers and higher ones is imo is experience. Once you get mw bow and mw arrows there is really no need to retire, meaning they'll be used to the accuracy and as 30-33 takes a long time they'll be getting better and better at archery.

tldr: Most high level archers are skilled and not just an OP class.
p.s I love you marco, a shielder who want to give archers more points. PERFECT! <3
Title: Re: Eternal thread about ranged
Post by: Rumblood on February 14, 2013, 06:32:56 pm
There have been several threads about different aspects of ranged playstyle and it's place in the game balance. Some of them got closed or deleted, but people still want to discuss it, so let it be a permanent thread for that.

They didn't get closed or deleted, they got moved to the proper Game Balance discussion area, which is where this one will end up as well.  :idea:

You can't simply discuss one aspect of ranged. Either it gets addressed as a whole and with the capabilities of individual ranged classes or the effort is wasted.
Title: Re: Eternal thread about ranged
Post by: Umbra on February 14, 2013, 06:34:15 pm
Buff ranged
Title: Re: Eternal thread about ranged
Post by: Perverz on February 14, 2013, 07:43:46 pm
i totally aggre with macropus even if im cav.
Title: Re: Eternal thread about ranged
Post by: bagge on February 15, 2013, 08:06:31 am
Yep, score system is max fail for ranged.
Title: Re: Eternal thread about ranged
Post by: Umbra on February 15, 2013, 11:53:24 am
Score system is a win for throwers.

Source: im a thrower
Title: Re: Eternal thread about ranged
Post by: Tzar on February 15, 2013, 12:34:22 pm
Plz use your brain.... If archers where to get as many points per shot as melee everyone could just farm valour with their pew pew...

Only Archers would get valour...

Just think about how many times u hit people as ranged compared to inf... but yes a small buff wouldnt hurt.. its really rare Ranged players gets valour.
Title: Re: Eternal thread about ranged
Post by: Fuma Kotaro on February 15, 2013, 03:19:25 pm
just lol tzar once you are in meele as inf you get so many points because of your hits + the hits from your teammates if they are close enough so you can kinda multiply it
and ranged is far away from the real battle they only get their own points and as a good archer you shoot like 40-50 arrows a round (siege) and you hit maybe 50% of the time
as xbower you shoot max 24 bolts and thats really hard you kinda gotta insta shoot all the time (siege) and hit only 70% as a better xbower
so dont come up with that
Title: Re: Eternal thread about ranged
Post by: Osiris on February 15, 2013, 03:41:33 pm
yes but melee usually run the risk of death or at least being hit when they attack someone. ranged can safely pew pew for points with no personal risk if the system was changed.
Title: Re: Eternal thread about ranged
Post by: Joker86 on February 15, 2013, 04:08:33 pm
Change battle mode from round based team deathmatch to round based conquest.

Otherwise there is no point in discussing anything regarding the balance of the different classes, because the game objective is causing a lot of problems which can not really be adressed by tweaking the "fighting stats" (shot speed, damage, accuracy, etc.)

The only thing a thread like this one can lead to is  lot of whine, accusations and a whole ton of lobbying.

I myself don't like ranged, I don't like to play it and I especially don't like to die to it. But I can very well understand that other people do like playing ranged, and with the current stats concerning their deadliness, I appreciate the amount of skill needed to to have a good K/D-R. And most of all, I see the necessity of having the class in the game. But as I know that my opinion can never be unbiased, I won't judge it.

In a few other threads I made some points about flexibility, choice of targets and so on, and if I think about it it might have sounded like the usual archer bashing, but it was only meant to show the problems battle mode is bringing. That's why I say: remove battle, implement conquest, buff archers, buff cavalry. And please, for fuck's sake, replace the upkeep system with something working.
Title: Re: Eternal thread about ranged
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on February 15, 2013, 06:03:27 pm
There have been several threads about different aspects of ranged playstyle and it's place in the game balance. Some of them got closed or deleted, but people still want to discuss it, so let it be a permanent thread for that.
[Feel free to whine here!]
Well, let me begin:

IMO ranged should get approximately +20-30% points for shooting. Getting valour for shooting is much harder than for being (for example) a shielder like me. And it's not about "ranged are unhonorable dicks and only shiny knights should get valour", let's skip the RP part - valour is a way of rewarding skill, and now it's just unbalanced. It's easy to prove: Bagge is much more skilled in archery than me in melee, but he still doesn't get valour as often as I do. Simple as that.

Also, did anyone think about why we have so much archers on public servers, but quite few of them on Strategus? I can't come up with any reasonable explanation.

Could be wrong, but.....strat battles. They just are not getting hired by defense. Why? Because the team needs to protect the flags, fend off cav, hold a position, and archers sure as hell are not going to do that.

Strat siege......shitton of archers on defense. Not so much on attack because they need to push back the defense in order to win. Few seiges are won by killing all the troops.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Eternal thread about ranged
Post by: Kato on February 15, 2013, 09:10:38 pm
Lower rewards (points, valours) for my old friendgy classes (xbow, archers, ha, hx, cav to some extent) are essential to keep game balanced, and protect them from even more real nerfs(damage, accuracy...).

Its simple: one archer is not op and only little annoying, many archers are op and very very annoying.

greater rewards -> more archers -> more qq -> more nerfs for archers

So think two times about what you want. :wink:
Title: Re: Eternal thread about ranged
Post by: bagge on February 15, 2013, 09:19:55 pm
Wait, so you actually mean that more people will play archer cause of some stupid score system?
Title: Re: Eternal thread about ranged
Post by: Kato on February 15, 2013, 09:33:33 pm
ofc, if even only above average archer can see his name high on scoreboard regulary and get some valour.

you underestimates peoples ego
Title: Re: Eternal thread about ranged
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on February 15, 2013, 10:16:17 pm
Valor should be removed anyway, horrible feature and pretty fucking unfair. On EU_4 I can get valor by killing one plated charger and hitting some guys a few times when the playerbase amount is like 10-20 players, which takes way less skill than doing something actual, valor rewards going for cheap kills, lightly armored guys, and in general rewards guys who refuse to fight people they might lose against.
Title: Re: Eternal thread about ranged
Post by: bagge on February 15, 2013, 10:37:26 pm
you underestimates peoples ego

Obviously :P
Title: Re: Eternal thread about ranged
Post by: Gravoth_iii on February 16, 2013, 01:19:06 pm
Valor should be removed anyway, horrible feature and pretty fucking unfair. On EU_4 I can get valor by killing one plated charger and hitting some guys a few times when the playerbase amount is like 10-20 players, which takes way less skill than doing something actual, valor rewards going for cheap kills, lightly armored guys, and in general rewards guys who refuse to fight people they might lose against.

Killing a plated charger is pretty good for your team though, a tincan can take more hits so he rewards more points afaik, so peasants arent really the best choice for valour whoring unless there is 10+ of them
Title: Re: Eternal thread about ranged
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on February 16, 2013, 03:18:22 pm
Killing a plated charger is pretty good for your team though, a tincan can take more hits so he rewards more points afaik, so peasants arent really the best choice for valour whoring unless there is 10+ of them
A destrier is worth more than a plated charger, and killing some new players plated charger does no good whatsoever, and tincans take more hits due to their armor removing some of the damage you deal, if two people with the same build was hit once with the same weapon and build and one had 70 armor and the other had 0 you'll get more points from hitting the guy with 0 due to taking more of his hp.
Title: Re: Eternal thread about ranged
Post by: Torost on February 17, 2013, 10:14:28 pm
The points are just for show.

But I have sometimes questioned it when I take down a full health tincan with a throwing lance to the face.
Only to get 2 points.....

Title: Re: Eternal thread about ranged
Post by: Dach on February 19, 2013, 03:16:27 am
The points are just for show.

Sadly no, if it would only be that, it be fine. But right now point is the requirement to who get valor.  :?