cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Phew on February 12, 2013, 10:06:52 pm

Title: Suggestion: Banner balance (autobalance) based on winning percentage
Post by: Phew on February 12, 2013, 10:06:52 pm
Forms of this idea have been floated before, but I just wanted to get it out there again:

-Track each player's win percentage for each game type (battle/siege)
-Banner balance with the goal of attaining the same sum of winning percentages on each team, after some weighting term (I suggest squaring the win rate as a starting point, but this could be adjusted over time)

Example:

Team 1-
Bob (60% win rate)
Joe (50% win rate)
Ted (40% win rate)
.6^2+.5^2+.4^2=0.77

Team 2-
Bilbo (50% win rate)
Frodo (50% win rate)
Sam (50% win rate)
.5^2+.5^2+.5^2=0.75

Win percentage is a much more reliable indicator of a player's efficacy than their equipment cost, generation, level, points per round, etc., so it makes sense to balance based on this and this alone. Right now, we have a system where all the best players gravitate toward a few high population clans, so they can roll x5 all day. Balance based on winning percentage, and the more they win, the harder it will get to keep winning. Think of it like a salary cap in sports.

Title: Re: Suggestion: Banner balance (autobalance) based on winning percentage
Post by: Penguin on February 12, 2013, 10:27:17 pm
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't having a guy with a 60% win rate a lot more advantageous, even with a guy with a 40% win rate on his side?
Title: Re: Suggestion: Banner balance (autobalance) based on winning percentage
Post by: Phew on February 12, 2013, 10:37:29 pm
Quote from: Penguin on February 12, 2013, 10:27:17 pm
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't having a guy with a 60% win rate a lot more advantageous, even with a guy with a 40% win rate on his side?

Hence the squared term. With that adjustment, it's like saying a 60% win rate guy is worth 2.25 guys with a 40% win rate.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Banner balance (autobalance) based on winning percentage
Post by: Latvian on February 12, 2013, 10:55:13 pm
i dont realy like this idea. Imagine situation i am worst player ever but i am in clan of good players, we play together and win all the time, but than they leave and i have high win percentage and i am balanced to losing team because i have this high win percentage and now i am forced to lose only because i was leeching succsess of my teammates. something like that
Title: Re: Suggestion: Banner balance (autobalance) based on winning percentage
Post by: Ronin on February 12, 2013, 11:00:44 pm
Punishing the good skilled one even further, to equalize every player is not a good idea. Pure equality between people actually means a dystopia, not an utopia.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Banner balance (autobalance) based on winning percentage
Post by: Phew on February 12, 2013, 11:09:19 pm
Quote from: Latvian_Knight on February 12, 2013, 10:55:13 pm
i dont realy like this idea. Imagine situation i am worst player ever but i am in clan of good players, we play together and win all the time, but than they leave and i have high win percentage and i am balanced to losing team because i have this high win percentage and now i am forced to lose only because i was leeching succsess of my teammates. something like that

You wouldn't be "forced to lose", since it's just as likely that you'd be balanced opposite another "leecher in a good clan".  If these people are so rare that there is never more than 1 on a server at a time, then they are hardly worth basing a balance system around anyway.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Banner balance (autobalance) based on winning percentage
Post by: Phew on February 12, 2013, 11:15:48 pm
Quote from: Ronin on February 12, 2013, 11:00:44 pm
Punishing the good skilled one even further, to equalize every player is not a good idea. Pure equality between people actually means a dystopia, not an utopia.

And what type of "topia" is the status quo? Where new players/independent players/players in small clans lose every single round while the large clan rolls x5 all day? Those people end up just quitting the game, which is bad for everyone.

Most skilled/experienced players in large clans want to match up against a fair fight, because it's more fun than steamrolling some peasants (play DTV for that).
Title: Re: Suggestion: Banner balance (autobalance) based on winning percentage
Post by: Ronin on February 12, 2013, 11:30:21 pm
I often look at the things if they would fit an utopia or not. You may disregard the last sentence.

Well I didn't put up a lot of thought into this, it might be a good solution for the big matchups. Though it will create problems of it's own. A guy with very high chance will be forced to join the bad team, until he loses and his ratio is getting dropped. I understand encouraging everyone having the same reward, but then there would be no point of playing better for the experienced players. Not for the rewards. Although a game has to keep bad players enjoying a game, it also has to offer some extra gifts to those who are doing extra work. A bit positive discrimination maybe, but I wasn't losing all of my rounds when playing siege back in the days everyone using a HRE banner; even though I wasn't using a HRE banner. On an unrelated note: I was even enjoying it somehow.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Banner balance (autobalance) based on winning percentage
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 13, 2013, 12:05:24 am
Not sure if the solution would work with multiplier.  If the teams were balanced 100% of the time, we'd never get over x2.  That being said, I am one of the people who prefer to fight a good match rather than steam rolling the enemy team.  It's more fun that way.  And if my faction is the large faction steamrolling, I'd prefer to have it split us up somewhat. 

If I had the option I'd pretty much always join the side that was getting their asses pushed in just because I've always enjoyed a challenge and would like to try and turn the tide of battle for the underdogs.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Banner balance (autobalance) based on winning percentage
Post by: Ronin on February 13, 2013, 11:30:53 am
Well crazy cracka, you are an exception then. I personally like to keep my multi as high as possible and for that I want to win the round by any means. That also includes picking my fights, therefore picking the right servers. I play rageball mainly, but not because it is an extremely fun mode to play. The main reason why I play is, it is easy to milk x5 when half of your enemy team is deathmatching. (Not to mention once you have 2-3 agi builders in your team, it's pretty easy win.)

Because I need more xp to gain levels. Because the game is telling me to do so. The only reward is coming from multipliers, and that only comes if your team wins the round. For that reason, I very much preferring to fight against a weak team rather than a strong team. I'm not the only one thinking like this. Many people just wants to win, because it's rewarding. It does not matter who you are winning against. There is only one god in cRPG and that is the x5 in the left-bottom of your screen. As long as xp is flowing, I am happy. As long as it doesn't, I am generally not happy. That being said, the game encourages the players to win and earn xp. Not overcoming a challenge.

Xp and gold is the main reason why I play this mod. There are much better mods if we compare gameplay, if you're not a heavily armored 2hander of course. Well, at least in my point of view.
Archery feels bad enough, cavalry is in the middle ground (due to the nerfs to ranged), throwing is a joke, shielder is less useful, horse archery and horse xbow is out of comparision. Don't get me wrong, I think cRPG has it's own elements in gamebalance. I very much enjoying this infantry based game. But it does not offer the BEST gameplay there is. The game's main element is in the xp/gold system. That is the point here I'm trying to show you here.


Shortly saying, the rewarding system needs to be changed first. With this rewarding system, balancing the game even further is actually punishing the skilled players. I like challenges, but not in this mod.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Banner balance (autobalance) based on winning percentage
Post by: Teeth on February 13, 2013, 11:54:37 am
Quote from: Ronin on February 13, 2013, 11:30:53 am
Well crazy cracka, you are an exception then. I personally like to keep my multi as high as possible and for that I want to win the round by any means. That also includes picking my fights, therefore picking the right servers. I play rageball mainly, but not because it is an extremely fun mode to play. The main reason why I play is, it is easy to milk x5 when half of your enemy team is deathmatching. (Not to mention once you have 2-3 agi builders in your team, it's pretty easy win.)

Because I need more xp to gain levels. Because the game is telling me to do so. The only reward is coming from multipliers, and that only comes if your team wins the round. For that reason, I very much preferring to fight against a weak team rather than a strong team. I'm not the only one thinking like this. Many people just wants to win, because it's rewarding. It does not matter who you are winning against. There is only one god in cRPG and that is the x5 in the left-bottom of your screen. As long as xp is flowing, I am happy. As long as it doesn't, I am generally not happy. That being said, the game encourages the players to win and earn xp. Not overcoming a challenge.

Xp and gold is the main reason why I play this mod. There are much better mods if we compare gameplay, if you're not a heavily armored 2hander of course. Well, at least in my point of view.
Archery feels bad enough, cavalry is in the middle ground (due to the nerfs to ranged), throwing is a joke, shielder is less useful, horse archery and horse xbow is out of comparision. Don't get me wrong, I think cRPG has it's own elements in gamebalance. I very much enjoying this infantry based game. But it does not offer the BEST gameplay there is. The game's main element is in the xp/gold system. That is the point here I'm trying to show you here.


Shortly saying, the rewarding system needs to be changed first. With this rewarding system, balancing the game even further is actually punishing the skilled players. I like challenges, but not in this mod.
What is wrong with you? Maybe a second job simulator like EVE online is more your thing.

I get bored and GTX when my team steamrolls the other team for too long. Guess that is the difference between playing for fun and playing because you want pixel rewards. I would love team balance based on this, also display win/loss ratio on the website please instead of k/d. If the teams are in perfect balance by win/loss ratio, it means you only help your team if you play above your average performance. So doing good compared to yourself helps your team, which is perfect in my opinion.

If individually the teams are completely balanced, then it's left to teamplay to tip the scales.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Banner balance (autobalance) based on winning percentage
Post by: Ronin on February 13, 2013, 03:03:24 pm
Haha seems like you did not like my reasons. So I guessed. Well, everyone has their tastes I think. Don't get me wrong. I'm not criticizing or against the idea of a fully balanced system. It might be fun. But from the point of view I am standing, things look like a complete balance is a bad thing for me. If the only reward there is, gaining xp. In this kind of system I would do my best to keep my multi high - as long as I stick to the rules of course.
Let's take example of spawnraping. It is not done for fun (unless you're a sadist, which I am not). Or is it being done for fun? Haha! People got strange tastes, I'm not really sure if this is a good example. Nevermind then :P

I mostly try to fight in the way that I can gain the most benefit. Not granting a duel to the last survivor, going to the servers I will benefit most. For example if I see a DTV server with 29 people in Istiniar, I'd consider going there. Well, I go there! Most probably xp will be good, and bots will be killed quite nicely. Both for good reward and good teamplay ---> good game experience

It's in human nature. As long as there is a game, some people will play it to WIN. I'm not the only one doing that. All those people saying they supported every nerf but weapon turnspeed, are a proof to this.


Just change the rewarding system. Trying to maintain a full balance, with a win-oriented rewarding system is in confliction. If people should be treated as equals, there shouldn't be any possession or dominance difference.

If there are rewards for winning; Skill and templay should be encouraged, but less skilled players have to get decent rewards too. It's just that they need to do better to gain more rewards. This is balanced in itself. If there's no rewards for winning but a different system as a whole; I'd love to see a very good balance. Easy wins are not fun at all really.
Though the system we use is, lets say a 5v5:
-good player               -bad player
-good player               -bad player
-bad player                 -bad player
-bad player                 -bad player
-bad player                 -bad player

Good players begun to have high multiplicators. So lets divide them out with force, make one of them lose their multi. That's a punishment for being a good player. Not wrong maybe, but not fully correct either. The system that is offered here seemed like a ultra-global version of this to me.

Believe it or not, x5 is a god of cRPG like the money in real world. You may deny the god itself, but you can not deny the existence of a religion. There should be people worshipping this new god called x5. By the way, I claim myself to be the Papa of this religion. Give me 5k cRPG gold so I grant you the blessing of x5. For a 1 heirloom point, I would even bless people for x6. Haha!

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Suggestion: Banner balance (autobalance) based on winning percentage
Post by: Phew on February 13, 2013, 03:29:28 pm
We already have an attempt at a balance system, it just balances based on equipment value (I think?), which has virtually no correlation to player efficacy. If we are going to have a balance system, why not have it based on something that actually correlates to player skill (like winning percentage)?

Ronin, we get it; XP/gold are more important to you than actually having fun. I believe you are in the minority within the crpg community. Like Teeth said, those people are best suited to other "games" that aren't even games (more like structured digital reward systems).

I'd like to keep this thread focused on potential team balance algorithms. If you don't like the one I suggested, feel free to suggest a different one, but I don't think this is the place for philosophical discussions.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Banner balance (autobalance) based on winning percentage
Post by: cmp on February 13, 2013, 07:29:15 pm
Quote from: Phew on February 13, 2013, 03:29:28 pm
We already have an attempt at a balance system, it just balances based on equipment value (I think?), which has virtually no correlation to player efficacy. If we are going to have a balance system, why not have it based on something that actually correlates to player skill (like winning percentage)?

Autobalance being based on equipment level is an old myth; it never worked like that. IIRC the current formula uses KD ratio from the last few days (or games, dunno) among other things.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Banner balance (autobalance) based on winning percentage
Post by: Phew on February 13, 2013, 08:40:05 pm
Quote from: cmpxchg8b on February 13, 2013, 07:29:15 pm
Autobalance being based on equipment level is an old myth; it never worked like that. IIRC the current formula uses KD ratio from the last few days (or games, dunno) among other things.

Good to know. The current autobalance algorithm works well when the server is a bunch of randoms, it's when a big clan shows up that things get weird. If I had a dollar for every time it put the top-performing randoms on the same team as the clan that is rolling the server...

I've also seen people suggest that it should balance based on class (equal archers/cav per team), but that's a different discussion.

These "old myths" propagate because the game mechanics are usually released piecemeal by the devs in random forum posts (here and Taleworlds), which only sometimes make it into Elmokki's Game Mechanic Megathread.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Banner balance (autobalance) based on winning percentage
Post by: Elindor on February 13, 2013, 09:09:27 pm
Quote from: cmpxchg8b on February 13, 2013, 07:29:15 pm
IIRC the current formula uses KD ratio from the last few days (or games, dunno) among other things.

That true in siege too, or just battle?
Would love to know more about how the balancer works in battle and also in siege, and how the banner balance works.
I know playing together is something to retain, but sometimes the balancer even fails to properly balance the "randoms" in around the clans that are present on the server for a good balanced gameplay.

The issue as far as I see it (and yes I play siege mostly so Im talking about the issue there), the balancer tries to balance people based off of their performance (points and kills, which should balance things, BUT the problem is that the balancer cannot move people in clans unless it moves them all together (most of the time).

If clan A has a bunch of high scoring players on, and clan B is against them with less people and less high scoring players, you'd think that the balancer would seek to give clan B whatever high scoring "randoms" it could to help balance things....but it often doesnt even do that.

----

Not sure what the solution is - but I do think the balancer could use some tweaking perhaps.  It can be one of the more frustrating parts of the game currently, even for someone who gets valor a lot (this guy :))
Title: Re: Suggestion: Banner balance (autobalance) based on winning percentage
Post by: Elindor on February 13, 2013, 09:14:16 pm
Quote from: Phew on February 13, 2013, 08:40:05 pm
The current autobalance algorithm works well when the server is a bunch of randoms, it's when a big clan shows up that things get weird. If I had a dollar for every time it put the top-performing randoms on the same team as the clan that is rolling the server...

THIS! Not sure why it does this but I see it happen all the time.
Even when the big clan rolling the server is doing well score wise as well, it still can often give them many of the high scoring randoms as well.

---------------

Question is this.  How does it work?

If the server is all randoms (only 1 on from any clan so the server can move everyone freely instead of in groups), what does it do?  Balance based on scores of the individuals so each team has about the same number of high scorers?

How does it look at a clan?  As one block, IE one entity? - since it has to move them all together?  Or does it look at them individually?
Just curious how it all works.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Banner balance (autobalance) based on winning percentage
Post by: Tomas on February 16, 2013, 03:18:32 pm
I think there's a place for current multiplier in the equation.  For example we could balance by:  char_level + 10*Recent_K:D + 5*Current Multiplier + 5*Riding + 5*PD + 5*PT (numbers are just to bring everything to roughly the same order of magnitude, in reality they can be adjusted according to importance.

That might also help balance archers and cav as they would automatically have a higher value than melee players and would therefore become higher priority targets to move when balancing.

I also think the banner balance threshold needs reducing a bit.  I know it sucks not to get on the same team as clan mates but right now there are just too many players in the big clans and anything to persuade players to join the smaller clans is good imo.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Banner balance (autobalance) based on winning percentage
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on February 16, 2013, 03:21:53 pm
There is a gigantic flaw in this idea, if it worked properly eventually most people would have an even winning percentage due to getting balanced based on their value which should create somewhat balanced teams, and once most people got a percentage of 50% of the time regardless of their skill this system will collapse on itself for obvious reasons.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Banner balance (autobalance) based on winning percentage
Post by: Tomas on February 16, 2013, 03:29:25 pm
Quote from: Elindor on February 13, 2013, 09:14:16 pm
THIS! Not sure why it does this but I see it happen all the time.
Even when the big clan rolling the server is doing well score wise as well, it still can often give them many of the high scoring randoms as well.

---------------

Question is this.  How does it work?

If the server is all randoms (only 1 on from any clan so the server can move everyone freely instead of in groups), what does it do?  Balance based on scores of the individuals so each team has about the same number of high scorers?

How does it look at a clan?  As one block, IE one entity? - since it has to move them all together?  Or does it look at them individually?
Just curious how it all works.

I think it works as follows (or similar) but could be a bit out of date or plain wrong in some aspects :D

For a new map or newly joined player
- assign them to the team with lowest number of total levels

After round 1 - Banner Balance
- Work out the total levels of players on the server.  E.g. 10 level 30 players = 300 levels
- Group clans together according to banner but only if the total levels of the clan players does not exceed 20% of the total levels on the server.  So with 300 total levels then no more than 60 levels (3 level 30 players) will be grouped as a clan.
- Balance out the clans evenly between the teams
- Every other player is a "randomer" and fills the gaps according to their level

After every subsequent round - Normal Balance
- balance teams according to recent K:D but devaluing banner balanced players so that they are less likely to be moved.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Banner balance (autobalance) based on winning percentage
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on February 25, 2013, 06:31:43 pm
Phew,

If your suggestion puts us on the same siege team more often.

I'm okay with this :D

Regards,
Oni
Title: Re: Suggestion: Banner balance (autobalance) based on winning percentage
Post by: Phew on February 25, 2013, 07:09:42 pm
Oni, play more siege! I'm sick of having to play DTV because siege is empty. And Battle is just like the worst part of DTV (chasing those last few mounted Nomads) over and over.

The consensus that I've gotten from the feedback in this thread is that folks favor XP/gold over actual fun. Perhaps the more important change isn't the banner balance system, but rather the reward system. Valour is a step in the right direction, but too binary. I say re-work the multiplier system in favor of XP/gold scaled to the "odds". A weak team beats a bad team=big reward. Strong team steamrolls some peasants=small reward. Same thing on the individual level; beat a superior player, get a big reward (like duel). This would encourage people to seek out tough fights, as opposed to the current system that rewards people for steamrolling weak opponents.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Banner balance (autobalance) based on winning percentage
Post by: cmp on February 26, 2013, 02:12:15 am
Quote from: Phew on February 25, 2013, 07:09:42 pm
The consensus that I've gotten from the feedback in this thread is that folks favor XP/gold over actual fun.

That's their problem, though.
Title: Re: Suggestion: Banner balance (autobalance) based on winning percentage
Post by: Phew on February 26, 2013, 04:30:03 pm
Quote from: cmpxchg8b on February 26, 2013, 02:12:15 am
That's their problem, though.

You should ad a "game mode" where people do menial chores in exchange for constant 5X. i.e. a dishwashing simulator, pairing socks, etc. Then you can implement a better banner balance system and the rest of us can enjoy it on the old servers while the XP/gold whores grind away on the new server.