cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Belmont on April 29, 2011, 03:12:52 pm
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In 2.20 the Nodachi was overnerfed.
Current stats for the Nodachi, compared to other swords of the same "tier":
Difficulty: 16
Cut: 43
Pierce: 0, no thrust
Secondary Mode: none
Lenght: 122 (lost 3 length!)
Speed: 91 (lost 1 speed!)
Price: 13,766
Claymore:
Difficulty: 16
Cut: 43
Pierce: 22
Secondary Mode: yes
Lenght: 120
Speed: 92
Price: 12,857
Sword of War:
Difficulty: 15
Cut: 40
Pierce: 23
Secondary Mode: yes
Lenght: 121
Speed: 93
Price: 12,871
EDIT: Just noticed I forgot to write this topic in the Game Balance section. Could a mod please move it there?
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Aha! There is absolutely no point to the nodachi anymore. It's like one of the 2K weapons you buy cause it has a really low requirement and you're not even level 10 yet... except that it's a high tier weapon with 16 str requirement.
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I always feel there was something wrong with the nodachi length (a ghost reach that hit targets who looked actually out of range) but whatever... you are right, stats look a bit inconsistent now.
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In 2.20 the Nodachi was overnerfed.
Current stats for the Nodachi, compared to other swords of the same "tier":
Difficulty: 16
Cut: 43
Pierce: 0, no thrust
Secondary Mode: none
Lenght: 122 (lost 3 length!)
Speed: 91
Price: 13,766
Pierce: 0, no thrust - It's not the only weapon without thrust.
Secondary Mode: none - Whos uses secondary mode?
Lenght: 122 (lost 3 length!) - still 122 lenght, more than many other 2h swords.
Speed: 91 - 91 is good speed, the claymore had 90 speed prepatch and it was still a fast weapon.
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Pierce: 0, no thrust - It's not the only weapon without thrust.
Secondary Mode: none - Whos uses secondary mode?
Lenght: 122 (lost 3 length!) - still 122 lenght, more than many other 2h swords.
Speed: 91 - 91 is good speed, the claymore had 90 speed prepatch and it was still a fast weapon.
I guess that's why it got +2 speed with this patch, right ? Your logic is unbreakable.
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Still a very capable weapon. This mod's policy has always been to make Japanese gear a little overpriced to prevent too many people from using it.
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Prepatch heirloomed was like a flamberge but without the sucky speed. Nerf was justified, I'd say make it cost less, it shouldnt be a top tier weapon at all.
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Still a very capable weapon. This mod's policy has always been to make Japanese gear a little overpriced to prevent too many people from using it.
That's true, it's still not bad. However, can we cut the good old "japanese gear should be worse just cause it's different" bc at least for once and look at the weapon just like we look at all other weapons, stat -wise and cost efficiency-wise , please ?
Magikarp, it wasn't any close to the flamberge, but let's skip that part. A nerf to the speed was expected , a nerf to the dmg was unexpected , but than again all weapons got their damage abit reduced so it's fine. But why the hell decrease the lenght of the weapon too ? Makes no sense to me at all.
So now claymore can do just as much slashing dmg as nodachi + it also has the thrust attack and very decent speed. German/Danish are now longer and even though the thrust attack is now slower, it is still 4 attack directions vs 3 of nodachi. Sword of war also looks like a very good option now (which is good). So, again... length nerf ?
Sorry but i call this an overnerf. And don't give me that "weeabo stuff should be unpopular" bullshit, i'm tired of it. We're discussing balance issues in top -tier 2handers branch here.
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I don't really know about the length. I've only heard of a length change when the hitbox didn't match the model. So imo either a dev thought it had some phantom range, either it's a mistake.
Still, if I was into playing a samurai, I wouldn't really mind having a few drawbacks, that's what makes it interesting, right ? I did the same with other kinds of characters, and I was kind of glad to be gimped (and it was far more gimped than what samurais have at the moment).
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I don't really know about the length. I've only heard of a length change when the hitbox didn't match the model. So imo either a dev thought it had some phantom range, either it's a mistake.
Still, if I was into playing a samurai, I wouldn't really mind having a few drawbacks, that's what makes it interesting, right ? I did the same with other kinds of characters, and I was kind of glad to be gimped (and it was far more gimped than what samurais have at the moment).
No offence, but is this the best argument you have ? Should i also be at a disadvantage if i want to play as a viking ? A templar? How is it decided exactly ?
Since the beggining of the Shogunate and until this month we haven't used shields, so we know a couple of things about disadvantages , yeah. Now,again- can we stop talking about how samurai stuff should be "gimped" and get back to the balancing topic ?
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Ok. It's a good weapon, a bit too pricey, but fine. Exactly how it was meant to be. What are you exactly suggesting ?
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Ok. It's a good weapon, a bit too pricey, but fine. Exactly how it was meant to be. What are you exactly suggesting ?
Giving it back the +1 speed it lost after this patch would be more than enough. Right now it's completely inferior to the Claymore in all aspects.
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Ujin, funny how you missed my whole point.
Nodachi shouldn't be a top tier weapon at all imo! Make it cost less, problem fixed.
The damage on heirloomed nodachis was way too high for a speedy weapon, that's what was wrong with it prepatch.
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Ujin, funny how you missed my whole point.
Nodachi shouldn't be a top tier weapon at all imo! Make it cost less, problem fixed.
The damage on heirloomed nodachis was way too high for a speedy weapon, that's what was wrong with it prepatch.
The high damage was not exclusive to the Nodachi, almost all heirloomed weapons had insane amounts of damage, especially Danish/German Greatswords.
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Ok. It's a good weapon, a bit too pricey, but fine. Exactly how it was meant to be. What are you exactly suggesting ?
I think he's suggesting it not replicated the Claymore exactly, except for the fact that the Claymore has a thrust. From a Min/Max standpoint, using the same argument all the people crying about heirlooms use, it's simply not fair. It's not balanced. The Claymore is clearly the better weapon, both weapons are designed for the same thing, except the Claymore can do everything the Nodachi can do, except it can also do more. Where there isn't a single thing the Nodachi has that the Claymore doesn't have.
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I think the nodachi is considered to be an exotic weapon for cRPG. That's why it stats have to be a bit sub par to keep its number down on the battlefield. Real weeabos will still use it while the min-max mass will more likely use other weapons.
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I think the nodachi is considered to be an exotic weapon for cRPG. That's why it stats have to be a bit sub par to keep its number down on the battlefield. Real weeabos will still use it while the min-max mass will more likely use other weapons.
Giving it the +1 speed it lost from the patch back wouldn't change this because the Claymore would still be better.
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I think the nodachi is considered to be an exotic weapon for cRPG. That's why it stats have to be a bit sub par to keep its number down on the battlefield. Real weeabos will still use it while the min-max mass will more likely use other weapons.
I'm sorry, this point is completely invalid. I see tincans running around with nodachis, vikings with nodachis, saracens with nodachis and they probably could care less if it fits or not. Most people use it cause they like how it looks or they like the stats, not cause they're "weeabos". They go to the crpg website, browse through weapons and choose it from the great variety of swords there is.
Only the items team treats it overwise- "it should be nerfed cause OMG IT CAN BECOME TOO POPULAR, WE DON'T LIKE WEEABOO STUFF!!!!". Well, sorry, you should stop caring about it so much and consentrate more on the actual item balance.
By the way , the new russian stuff looks awesome, you better nerf it before it becomes too popular and everyone runs around in slavic armors. Just following your logic, alright .
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So there will be no Ancient Greek weapons and armor coming in the future? BUT WHY? :cry:
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I'm sorry, this point is completely invalid. I see tincans running around with nodachis, vikings with nodachis, saracens with nodachis and they probably could care less if it fits or not. Most people use it cause they like how it looks or they like the stats, not cause they're "weeabos". They go to the crpg website, browse through weapons and choose it from the great variety of swords there is.
Only the items team treats it overwise- "it should be nerfed cause OMG IT CAN BECOME TOO POPULAR, WE DON'T LIKE WEEABOO STUFF!!!!". Well, sorry, you should stop caring about it so much and consentrate more on the actual item balance.
By the way , the new russian stuff looks awesome, you better nerf it before it becomes too popular and everyone runs around in slavic armors. Just following your logic, alright .
BS, like I said, the weapon shouldn't be top tier at all. THe damage it did was ridiculous.
Stop trying to buff your clan again, lowering the repair bill is the only fix I see here.
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BS, like I said, the weapon shouldn't be top tier at all. THe damage it did was ridiculous.
Stop trying to buff your clan again, lowering the repair bill is the only fix I see here.
Oh wow, the anwers are getting more and more ridiculous. The damage it dealt was equal to many other non-weeabo weapons, including danish/germans lolstabs . Now get the hell out of here and come back with something more solid than " stop buffing your clan".
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The damage it dealt was equal to many other non-weeabo weapons, including danish/germans lolstabs .
I find your answer amusing, I know a lot of you Shogunate fellas have a Masterwork Nodachi. Those guys all sported 7 powerstrike+, swung their swords way too fast and dealt more damage than a flamberge. Balanced? Hah.
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I find your answer amusing, I know a lot of you Shogunate fellas have a Masterwork Nodachi. Those guys all sported 7 powerstrike+, swung their swords way too fast and dealt more damage than a flamberge. Balanced? Hah.
While a Masterwork Nodachi had 48 cut it had no thrust attack. A Masterwork Danish Greatsword had 45 cut and 30 pierce with the same speed. Should be quite easy to see that the Nodachi was not overpowered when you take a few seconds to remember how ridiculously fast the old thrust animation was. (Also, a normal Flamberge deals exactly 48 cut damage, is longer and also has a thrust attack, not sure how it is possible to deal more damage than a Flamberge if they had the same cut damage.)
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While a Masterwork Nodachi had 48 cut it had no thrust attack. A Masterwork Danish Greatsword had 45 cut and 30 pierce with the same speed. Should be quite easy to see that the Nodachi was not overpowered when you take a few seconds to remember how ridiculously fast the old thrust animation was. (Also, a normal Flamberge deals exactly 48 cut damage, is longer and also has a thrust attack, not sure how it is possible to deal more damage than a Flamberge if they had the same cut damage.)
And you think that damage was fine? Haha
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And you think that damage was fine? Haha
3 extra cut damage or 30 pierce, what is better? Answer is obvious.
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3 extra cut damage or 30 pierce, what is better? Answer is obvious.
Comparing the OPness of one item with another is't exactly helping you win this discussion.
Both deserved a nerf.
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Both deserved a nerf.
Exactly. The Nodachi was overnerfed. The main reason why most weapons became OP is because of the heirloom modifiers which were nerfed.
EDIT: Or rather than overnerfed I should say made useless by the buffed Claymore.
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I still do fine with gen 1 nodachi
the only problem is i was planning on using it a more Agi build next gen but meh.
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Exactly. The Nodachi was overnerfed. The main reason why most weapons became OP is because of the heirloom modifiers which were nerfed.
EDIT: Or rather than overnerfed I should say made useless by the buffed Claymore.
Not overnerfed, overpriced.
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Not overnerfed, overpriced.
There is already a weapon that has really good cut damage and no thrust at a lower price point. Nodachi deserves to be a "top tier" weapon because it does not have the unbalanced tag like the War Cleaver. Lowering the price too much will make it overlap with the War Cleaver, giving it back the one speed point it lost will make it worth the price tag.
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In the first place, danish sword is better because..... it was just better, Im sorry but I can not imagine Nodachi being used for thrusting, also nodachi was an extemely heavy weapon only for the storngests of Samurai. Give me a reason why Nodachi should be better than anything else?? because u like ur samurai outfit and aditionaly want to have best sword?? there are two types of players in this case: those who dont give a fuck about outfit and wear anything just to have better stats and those who creates cool outfit what force them sometimes to choose the worse weapon/armor, thats ur choice. Just because u want to look cool u want to buff stats of ur beloved nodachi, well I would like arbaled to be buffed not because it looks cool and I want to EQ it but because I have no other choice and its still preety useless.
And someone mentioned something about cRPG's policy of exotic items being medium tier, I dont think its exactly this way, Japanese armours and weapons were just medium in comparison to XV-XVI century European ones. In fact Japanese Katanas would be useless in European Medival reality, but thats something to what cRPG close its eye for poeple like u who love japanese style.
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In the first place, danish sword is better because..... it was just better, Im sorry but I can not imagine Nodachi being used for thrusting, also nodachi was an extemely heavy weapon only for the storngests of Samurai. Give me a reason why Nodachi should be better than anything else?? because u like ur samurai outfit and aditionaly want to have best sword?? there are two types of players in this case: those who dont give a fuck about outfit and wear anything just to have better stats and those who creates cool outfit what force them sometimes to choose the worse weapon/armor, thats ur choice. Just because u want to look cool u want to buff stats of ur beloved nodachi, well I would like arbaled to be buffed not because it looks cool and I want to EQ it but because I have no other choice and its still preety useless.
And someone mentioned something about cRPG's policy of exotic items being medium tier, I dont think its exactly this way, Japanese armours and weapons were just medium in comparison to XV-XVI century European ones. In fact Japanese Katanas would be useless in European Medival reality, but thats something to what cRPG close its eye for poeple like u who love japanese style.
"Facepalm"
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In the first place, danish sword is better because..... it was just better, Im sorry but I can not imagine Nodachi being used for thrusting, also nodachi was an extemely heavy weapon only for the storngests of Samurai. Give me a reason why Nodachi should be better than anything else?? because u like ur samurai outfit and aditionaly want to have best sword?? there are two types of players in this case: those who dont give a fuck about outfit and wear anything just to have better stats and those who creates cool outfit what force them sometimes to choose the worse weapon/armor, thats ur choice. Just because u want to look cool u want to buff stats of ur beloved nodachi, well I would like arbaled to be buffed not because it looks cool and I want to EQ it but because I have no other choice and its still preety useless.
Nowhere did I state that the Nodachi should have a thrust attack because it would be silly (a long time ago it had a thrust attack). I also don't know where you get the idea that I want the Nodachi to be "better than anything else" because it is inferior to many of the European swords (and rightly so). The only objective this topic has it to give the Nodachi back the one speed point it lost because it is now outclassed by the cheaper Claymore in all aspects. Even though I created this topic I do not use the Nodachi, I use a Mighty German Poleaxe.
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I think the nodachi is considered to be an exotic weapon for cRPG. That's why it stats have to be a bit sub par to keep its number down on the battlefield. Real weeabos will still use it while the min-max mass will more likely use other weapons.
Why not just make the upkeep way higher? Making the upkeep higher seems like that's the best possible use for upkeep. What about the Min-Max Weeaboos? Must they choose between one or the other, rather than playing higher upkeep, to steer people who aren't a weeaboo away from the nodachi? With a higher upkeep, if you're a Min-Maxer, you're not going to buy an item if it's identical to another but the upkeep is 5-10K higher.
"Facepalm"
And sadly it seems that these people I'm facepalming at (with you), hold just as much weight with their ideas on the forums, even though they don't ever post a single logical argument.
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. Nodachi deserves to be a "top tier" weapon because it does not have the unbalanced tag like the War Cleaver
well ok I didnt mean better than anything else but still dont think it should be a top tier weapon.
And sadly it seems that these people I'm facepalming at (with you), hold just as much weight with their ideas on the forums, even though they don't ever post a single logical argument
Perhaps it is difficult to find a logical argument to comment on something so not logical as Japanese stuff in Medieval game.
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Perhaps it is difficult to find a logical argument to comment on something so not logical as Japanese stuff in Medieval game.
I'd agree with this statement a bit, but the devs chose to put it in the game to begin with, it's not like the game is truly medieval anyway. Warband is based in a fictional world.
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In a fictional world with japanese weapons.
http://mountandblade.wikia.com/wiki/Strange_set
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I want the heirlooms on my nodachi back. my build is always 15 str - 21 agi, now my gameplay is ruined :(
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some people consider the lack of a thrust a good thing as opposed to the whimpy 22p thrust that is resigned to glancing if not properly used
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some people consider the lack of a thrust a good thing as opposed to the whimpy 22p thrust that is resigned to glancing if not properly used
No one said that they want a thrust on the nodachi. They are just trying to point out that the nodachi got overnerfed.
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The nondachi was nerfed because when they removed the lolstab it was anticipated that most people would just switch to cutting power, and the best one was nondachi.
It will probably stay like this.
Judging by the balacers logic (im just guessing) i would say that they wanted the people to keep their european swods.
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No one said that they want a thrust on the nodachi. They are just trying to point out that the nodachi got overnerfed.
They are trying to imply that trading 2 range for 1 speed means the weapon is useless. It's not. It's a good weapon for those who don't like thrusts, about on par with claymore. It shouldn't be better imo, but cheaper by 1k or something close to it.
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So, all the weeabo hate and "it's supposed to be gimped cause it's an exotic weapon (so are the danish greatswords/claymores if you ask me,were used just as much probably)" arguments aside, can we negotiate on either +1 speed or a 1k price reduction for nodachi ? I think people are grown-up enough to choose if they want to use nodachi or not (most people don't take it anyway cause they don't like the "weeaboo stuff") , there's no need to make the weapon subpar compared to the other choices.
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Like I said reduce the price of the weapon, it's no longer needed as a high tier weapon.
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Like I said reduce the price of the weapon, it's no longer needed as a high tier weapon.
It's just one of the opinions though. Oh and by the way, i have nothing against the nerf reduction for danish/german and the flamberge too.
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<Fasader> claymore 91 speed
Topic locked.