cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: BADPLAYER_old2 on January 01, 2013, 01:37:02 am

Title: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: BADPLAYER_old2 on January 01, 2013, 01:37:02 am
Right now it is far too easy to hybrid into cavalry without giving up anything in your melee build so that when you are dismounted you might as well be pure infantry which is incredibly unbalanced for obvious reasons.

(click to show/hide)


What I suggest is you having to dedicate alot more to riding in your build to use any good horses and to that end I think these are more fair Riding Requirements for horses:

Sumpter - 3 Riding Requirement
Rouncey/Palfrey/Steppe/Desert - 6 Riding Requirement
Destrier/Arabian/Courser - 7 Riding Requirement
All the Armoured Horses - 8 Riding Requirement



Cavalry should be as big an investment as archery in my opinion, instead of something you can throw 5 points into and gain a HUGE benefit with basically no drawbacks.
This also makes Heavy Cavalry alot more balanced in that they have to dedicate alot more into AGI thus making them easier to kill for all classes (but especially for archers who aim for rider and not horse which should be encouraged)
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Torben on January 01, 2013, 01:43:03 am
yes nerf diversity of low level builds even more. 

i do get it if we are talking about high level guys,  your changes would be inside my build n all that,  so my response is not biased towards my needs.  Im just rly concerned how many changes that are proposed make it rly hard for the average noob to actually get to the fun equipment.

edit:
the new wpf curve will also force to put points into wm,  so that will help i guess.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: San on January 01, 2013, 02:58:55 am
A skill like HA for melee would separate horse movement from horse melee power. I'm not sure cutting off a lot of horses would be okay, although I do think destrier and the heavy horses should be higher requirement. As a 25/15 cav hybrid, I perform well even on a rouncey with minimal skill investment.. Cav hybrid is one of the ultimate high level builds imo.

Current cav builds/equipment wouldn't be affected much other than losing some IF or something, making it a little more of a commitment.

It's just debatable whether high levels of that horse combat skill would bring you to current attack levels or slightly better than current levels. It would surely buff high agi pure cav builds.

EDIT: Fixed a really badly made sentence
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Torben on January 01, 2013, 02:10:25 pm
seems like this is an NA problem cause EU usually doesnt go 0 wm.  as mentioned above i think the new wm/ wpf thing coming up will handle your problem quite nicely.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Panos on January 01, 2013, 02:15:42 pm
Increase the riding skill req`s, but give a buff to horses.


and never forget to ..




(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Cepeshi on January 01, 2013, 02:50:26 pm
Yeah, make my horse that dies to 2 arrows even more useless, cause i would actually have to go agi whore to use it? No, thanks.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: donib on January 01, 2013, 05:25:10 pm
This is bs, 24 agi for a SLOW horse and you are left with low ps/strength so you do low damage. Best we kill any hybrid build possible, which are imo the most fun classes to play
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: BADPLAYER_old2 on January 01, 2013, 05:36:03 pm
Right now I am 27/15 9ps 4if 5ath 5riding and it is a completely retarded build, I 1-2 shot 90% of people on horseback riding a Destrier that tanks alot of hits and if I get dehorsed no problem I have a poleaxe/whatever on my back and i'm an extremely effective melee build. I really don't see how this is balanced in any way shape or form, the ability to just be able to bump with a horse is already a huge advantage since it makes you the best support class in the game, but to actually be effective at lancing and THEN be a great melee build on the ground with a build like that is just too much for too little investment.

I used to play 12/30, 15/27, 18/24 builds as cavalry and most cavalry should have to dedicate that much to ride a horse considering how good they are even when the player riding the horse is awful.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Molly on January 01, 2013, 06:40:09 pm
How about removing the possibility to carry a second weapon on horseback. That way lancers would have to stick with their lance which is a "nerf" to their melee capabilities. But what about 1h/shield-cav?

Just thinking out loud here...
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Malaclypse on January 01, 2013, 07:06:16 pm
This is bs, 24 agi for a SLOW horse and you are left with low ps/strength so you do low damage. Best we kill any hybrid build possible, which are imo the most fun classes to play

The horse will be made somewhat faster as well as more agile with 8 riding, at least. I'm also wondering what you're considering as low PS/STR, as I see people talk about builds with 15 or less Agility all the time while never regarding that as a low value.

I do think the requirements could be fine tuned better, but I'm not sure if I agree with the model BADPLAYER put up (no 4 or 5 Riding horses at all). Consider that the most PD it costs to use a bow is 6, the most PT it costs to use a throwing weapon is 7, the most Strength it costs to use a melee weapon is 20, the most Shield skill it costs to use a shield is 6. I don't think any horses should be above 7 Skill requirement, but more of them should be up there as well at 6 skill tier while keeping 3, 4, and 5 in use.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: donib on January 01, 2013, 08:20:24 pm
Right now I am 27/15 9ps 4if 5ath 5riding and it is a completely retarded build, I 1-2 shot 90% of people on horseback riding a Destrier that tanks alot of hits and if I get dehorsed no problem I have a poleaxe/whatever on my back and i'm an extremely effective melee build.

I must agree this is a very extreme example, but is this a level 30 build? If so it should be extremely weak dismounted. At level 35 this is probably much more effective. In this case i dont think a solution would be to change the riding skill.

If you look at the 21/15 build for armored horse, i think it is perfectly fine, where you can trade IF for WM if need be.

Your solution would probably kill the build you mentioned but it would also ruin the other ones like the one above, or the 18/18 lancer/1h. Those are fun builds and well balanced. Applying your solution would just ruin them.

Ill go with benkei on this one, do something about those big polearms as secondary weapons, maybe make the heavy lance a 3-slot weapon, and for the hybrid lancers you got the normal lance on 2-slot.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Kafein on January 01, 2013, 08:37:14 pm
How about removing the possibility to carry a second weapon on horseback. That way lancers would have to stick with their lance which is a "nerf" to their melee capabilities. But what about 1h/shield-cav?

Just thinking out loud here...

Make top tier polearms above 120 reach 3slots and unsheatable. The bec isn't a problem, glaives/poleaxes are.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Pentecost on January 02, 2013, 12:17:56 am
What I suggest is you having to dedicate alot more to riding in your build to use any good horses and to that end I think these are more fair Riding Requirements for horses:

Sumpter - 3 Riding Requirement
Rouncey/Palfrey/Steppe/Desert - 6 Riding Requirement
Destrier/Arabian/Courser - 7 Riding Requirement
All the Armoured Horses - 8 Riding Requirement

I don't necessarily disagree with the spirit of your suggestion, but I do want to point out that the requirements for riding you've proposed aren't likely to be approved because, as Malaclypse pointed out, they aren't parallel with the other requirements in the mod. Consider:

-If you are melee, 15 strength is enough to use a plurality of good weapons (the Longsword and its variants, most of the greatswords, Morningstar, Barmace etc). If you go up to 20 strength, you can use every melee weapon in the game.
-If you are an archer, 15 strength and 5 power draw gives you access to a good bow that is also the most commonly fielded bow in Strategus (Horn Bow). If you go up to 18 strength and 6 power draw, you can use every bow in the game.
-If you are a thrower, 15 strength and 5 power throw lets you use all of the best throwing weapons out there (Heavy Throwing Axe, War Darts, Jarids if those are your thing). You can go up to 21 strength and 7 power throw, but there's little point in doing so as the Throwing Lance is gimmicky and expensive.
-If you are a crossbowman, 15 strength is enough to use every single crossbow out there.

I assume this is why, for cavalry, the developers decided to go with 15 agility and 5 riding as the requirement to use most of the good horses and 21 agility and 7 riding as the point where you can use every horse in the game. If you want to get them to increase the requirements in order to make hybrid cavalry less viable, you may want to address why your proposal is better than some of the other changes people here are suggesting that would have a less deleterious effect on many existing builds.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on January 02, 2013, 01:17:33 am
Personally I see this as an NA problem, I go pure polearm and cav so by the end of my build I have 7 riding and my build is 18/21 yet you want me to go 15/24 just because you think its OP? Ok Hybrids might seem OP for what they are and fair enough if you want that to change but you forget about Pure builds. I'm going to suffer more then anyone else because hybrids seem like easy mode? I mean seriously 8 riding for the armored horses that have very little use (in EU anyway) and cost a fortune to repair.

At the end of the day I can't really see or suggest a solution because I don't know anything about hybrid builds or how things are on NA, on EU I don't notice or see a problem with hybrids as for armored horses they don't really exist and are hardly seen compared to the rouncey courser and destrier.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Berserkadin on January 02, 2013, 01:56:11 am
Decrease cost of playing cav, but increase the requirements for it?
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Smoothrich on January 02, 2013, 08:37:57 am
make lances 3 slots

-1 badplayers post because its bad
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: a_bear_irl on January 02, 2013, 11:09:33 am
i dont know if a riding skill increase is the solution to this problem, but it's definitely stupid that any melee build can drop 3-4 IF and 1-2 WM and have a completely viable cav build.

you effectively have two lives, one as cav and one as melee. ride around and lance people until you get dehorsed and then hop up and continue as a build that loses at most 8 HP and 20 proficiency when compared to a pure melee build of the same str/agi combo. and if you have access to a good armory (pretty much every good player does) then your +3 everything will easily make up that difference when compared to a normal player.

whereas all the other hybrid classes have some clear disadvantages (slot problems, accuracy problems, etc), melee-cav does not. there's no reason not to do it instead of a pure melee build unless you just don't like being cav.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Torben on January 02, 2013, 12:11:00 pm
I´m wondering what is going on in NA that people still think cav is overpowered,  especially lancer cav...  are you guys still heavy on str builds that cant outmaneuver/jumpslash/whatever,  you guys having a cav spam atm or what is the matter? 
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Smoothrich on January 02, 2013, 12:34:37 pm

whereas all the other hybrid classes have some clear disadvantages (slot problems, accuracy problems, etc), melee-cav does not. there's no reason not to do it instead of a pure melee build unless you just don't like being cav.

It's a problem I want to see solved by slots.  Making lances 3 slots will significantly nerf the viability of lancer hybrids, which is the worst offender of balance in regards to cav.  They will still have similar builds, but have to scavenge for a decent weapon on the ground after dismount (creating vulnerability), spec into 1hand no shield (gimped like an arbalester/archer) or use the lance as melee (heavy lance is awful at this).

Also I think the lance and light lance need a damage nerf now too, and possibly speed as well to make them a bit worse as infantry.  Increase the weights too to gimp their escapes.

Light Lance
thrust damage: 27p - lower by 2 to 25p
speed rating: 91 - lower by 3 to 88
weapon length: 175
weight: 1.5 - raise by 2 to 3.5

Lance
thrust damage:  28p - lower by 2 to 26p
speed rating: 85 - lower by 4 to 81
weapon length: 180
weight: 1.5 - raise by 2.2 to 3.7

Heavy Lance
thrust damage: 23p -  good
speed rating: 74 - good
weapon length: 190
weight:  1.8 - raise by 2.2 to 4

Every 2 directional polearm around 170 reach weighs nearly double the lances, and the lances are usually longer anyways with comparable damage.  Nerf them across the board to be much worse infantry weapons and reduce the damage of Light and Lance to be comparable to the Heavy Lance nerf.  Hell, people use the Light Lance as a hoplite weapon already because its very good for it.

I also would suggest nerfing the stats of the Destrier, War Horse, and Large War Horse.  Too good for their price and the small investment needed in them.  This will encourage people to go above 5 riding to increase their stats.

Tying riding skill to your own stats would be an elegant solution to STR cav as well.  If your powerstrike is greater than your riding, your new PS is averaged between the difference. 

21/18 and 24/15 builds get 6.5 PS.  27/15 builds get 7 PS.  Encourage 18/18 builds for cavalry/infantry hybridization, or agi heavy.

Maybe tweak that a bit and throw in WPF into a formula (im bad at numbers.)  The idea would be you need WM almost as high as your riding invested into a weapon to not get significant PS reduction.  110 wpf + riding = a build only doing half damage at all times.  No matter how high your WPF is you should still end up doing less damage then a build with no riding and similar WPF.  Maybe just a big reduction in WPF from riding skill instead of affecting PS with the same intent.

Ultimately find a balance to create a ghetto HA skill based on WM.  HA skill already gives a persistent WPF nerf to your ranged skill, allegedly.  Port this to your PS skill for melee cav/infantry hybrids, along with melee WPF reduction.  Force cavalry players to max out WM and NOT spread it out (too much) to be a functional hybrid, while still having a broad reduction in infantry viability by lowering damage and swing speed.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Torben on January 02, 2013, 12:52:49 pm
oh this thread was for crazy people, i'm out.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on January 02, 2013, 01:20:41 pm
Personally the issue is that cav is the one thing that is easy to hybrid with, while also being one of the most powerful possible hybrids, one level allows you to ride a rouncey if your build got 9agi, if you sacrifice two levels you'll be able to ride a destrier and you'll still have one point left.

However I personally believe there is still some flaw in BADPLAYERs idea as it really still doesn't solve much and everyone and their mother will still be able to hybrid cav as long as they're an agi build. My proposed solution would be altering the stats on all the highend polearms and making the vast majority of polearms over 130 length (a few exceptions such as some spears, all lances but the heavy and the couch only ones and staffs and the practice lance though) unsheathable and then making all greatswords without sheathes unsheathable and making all the ones with sheathes three slot, this would start to push things in the right direction however the optimal end result for cavalry is in my opinion adding a wpf for horseriding and perhaps later altering the mechanics to make things more skillbased (not talking silly Thomek bullshit of just making horses one-hit bump even more but making them unmanouverable).

EDIT: Also, as Vibe said, decrease cost, 1+ Vibe.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Tovi on January 02, 2013, 01:27:04 pm
Try to ride a horse in a full archer map and remember Agincourt  :wink:
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Vibe on January 02, 2013, 01:39:10 pm
Increase requirements, decrease cost
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Torben on January 02, 2013, 02:04:32 pm
increasing requirements would,  on EU side,  change little as most are agi lancers.  would only gimp new players into never getting to use the fun horses.

just fucking buff the other classes or whatever,  why do people always want to nerf the mod,  decrease variability and lessen the fun.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Torben on January 02, 2013, 02:33:57 pm
and seriuosly,  increase requirments and decrease the cost?  every peasant and his mother are riding mamluks if they want to,  and the last requirement increase only made courser/arabs disappear for about a month. 

decreasing the cost would give us a huge cav clusterfuck again.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 02, 2013, 05:04:03 pm
I disagree with Bad.

At level 30, with 6 riding requirement I have this build:

    Strength: 18
    Agility: 18
    Hit points: 55

    Skills to attributes: 2

    Ironflesh: 1
    Power Strike: 6
    Shield: 4
    Athletics: 6
    Riding: 6
    Weapon Master: 6


If I was a pure footman, I could have this build at level 30 instead:

    Strength: 24
    Agility: 18
    Hit points: 59

    Skills to attributes: 14

    Power Strike: 8
    Athletics: 6
    Weapon Master: 3

Tell me how my 18/18 build with a shield/riding is comparable to someone with the same agility (athletics) but 2 more PS.  A pure Infantry is still going to have better stats than me as a dehorsed infantry if they do it right.

Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on January 02, 2013, 05:17:30 pm
Dumb the if, the shield, and 3 of wm (just like you did on your other build) and you could get 21/18.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Kafein on January 02, 2013, 05:41:38 pm
Nerf the high tier polearms. They need it anyway.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on January 02, 2013, 06:49:57 pm
Soo you want to make lances 3 slots? I'm a pure polearm and nearly all my weapons (apart from really low tier ones like the staff) are two slots so you want to FORCE me to respec and go inf or 1h lancer cav? No offense but that is so unbelievably stupid! this is very very clearly an NA problem and making lances 3 slots is not the solution to anything at all. I really really hope that no dev listens to this because this is beyond crazy.  :?
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Mr_Oujamaflip on January 02, 2013, 08:04:15 pm
Only problem with cav that I can see is that the destrier is slightly OP. It's an armoured horse, without the armour. But better.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on January 02, 2013, 08:16:46 pm
Only problem with cav that I can see is that the destrier is slightly OP. It's an armoured horse, without the armour. But better.

True, but can't be worse then a fairy horse, or as I also refer to them as "arabian poledancers."  :wink:
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Artyem on January 02, 2013, 09:14:58 pm
I actually agree with this, heavy armored war horses weren't cheap or easy to ride and even if you aren't going for Realism, I highly doubt a race horse should take more training to ride than a fucking war horse.

Riding can easily be added on to a build (21/15 is pretty simple for that) allowing for a cataphract with 7 PS.  Grab your MW DGS and your MW heavy lance / lance and you're set.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Tigero on January 02, 2013, 09:16:23 pm
My suggestion is: Make riding skill require 2 agi per level, then raise horse difficulties in a proper way, then you need more points to spend on riding to become a dedicated cavarly, and still some dedication to become a hybrid.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Smoothrich on January 02, 2013, 09:27:31 pm
Soo you want to make lances 3 slots? I'm a pure polearm and nearly all my weapons (apart from really low tier ones like the staff) are two slots so you want to FORCE me to respec and go inf or 1h lancer cav? No offense but that is so unbelievably stupid! this is very very clearly an NA problem and making lances 3 slots is not the solution to anything at all. I really really hope that no dev listens to this because this is beyond crazy.  :?

then don't spawn on a horse if you want to use a top tier polearm as infantry.  or you can bring a quarter staff or shortened spear as a 1 slot backup polearm.  or you can try war spear or hafted blade cav (its fun).

this is the same penalty archers and arbalesters have and they are much weaker classes than lance cav.  you think its stupid because you are using an OP class with an OP build and don't want it nerfed.  its not an NA or EU problem, its just balancing.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on January 02, 2013, 09:29:24 pm
then don't spawn on a horse if you want to use a top tier polearm as infantry.  or you can bring a quarter staff or shortened spear as a 1 slot backup polearm.  or you can try war spear or hafted blade cav (its fun).

this is the same penalty archers and arbalesters have and they are much weaker classes than cav.  you think its stupid because you are using an OP class with an OP build and don't want it nerfed.  its not an NA or EU problem, its just balancing.

Polearms OP? LOL you're funny  :lol: So I'm in the wrong for going a pure build? nice real nice. Either way I don't care because I really hope this wont be added and will just be ignored like all the other cav nerf threads out there.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Smoothrich on January 02, 2013, 09:34:42 pm
Polearms OP? LOL you're funny  :lol: So I'm in the wrong for going a pure build? nice real nice. Either way I don't care because I really hope this wont be added and will just be ignored like all the other cav nerf threads out there.

You aren't a pure build.  You're lancer cav/infantry hybrid.  You get to spawn on a horse with the best lance and the best polearm of your choice every round with a barely gimped statwise build with two lives and exceptionally high impact on winning a round due to the nature of cavalry.

Most comparable hybrids to versatility are the ranged/melee classes.  This is why the 1 slot regular crossbow is OP as well, you can bring top-tier infantry weapons for hardly any skill points or drawback and the crossbow has excellent stats.

2 slot ranged weapons + ammo slot (3 slots) with 1 slot melee weapon makes sense, but is underpowered in comparison.  Especially with the PD and WM requirement of archery, so they suffer from slots and skill points.  The lances offer WAY more killing power for 2 slots then these ranged classes get with 3 slots at the cost of riding skill only.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: BADPLAYER_old2 on January 02, 2013, 09:42:10 pm
No offense but that is so unbelievably stupid! this is very very clearly an NA problem

Because all the EU cavalry are bad compared to the majority of them on NA (mostly).
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on January 02, 2013, 09:46:42 pm
Best lance? I use the heavy lance and since that got Nerfed its not the best lance anymore. Second if I get dehorsed near a group of people I'm pretty much dead before I stand, also I don't spawn and play as my horse then respawn as my character on the spot (I know you mean I can just get up and carry on playing but read above and you will see my point.) Plus cav are not made for head on fights with infantry on cRPG (atleast not against 2handers) cav are a support class just like hoplites and archers, They have their pluses and minuses just like all classes.

At the end of the day this is a problem NA players are having not EU so I can't really debate about it as I don't play on NA and even if I did I have a different mentality and play style then NA players. So I'm going to leave this up to the NA cav players to decide/debate on it.

Because all the EU cavalry are bad compared to the majority of them on NA (mostly).

Until you play on a sever where you and EU cav have equal ping you cannot claim that.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: BADPLAYER_old2 on January 02, 2013, 09:50:45 pm
Until you play on a sever where you and EU cav have equal ping you cannot claim that.

lmao
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on January 02, 2013, 09:52:07 pm
lmao

Let me guess you also have the biggest dicks, guns, nukes, brains penuts and everything else you can think of. I really can't see how people can/will take you serious when you just come across as some classic egotastic American.  :?
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Malaclypse on January 02, 2013, 09:56:06 pm
Let me guess you also have the biggest dicks, guns, nukes, brains penuts and everything else you can think of. I really can't see how people can/will take you serious when you just come across as some classic egotastic American.  :?

BADPLAYER is EU, he just plays NA primarily (with the high ping that comes with that).
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Torben on January 02, 2013, 09:56:14 pm
Let me guess you also have the biggest dicks, guns, nukes, brains penuts and everything else you can think of. I really can't see how people can/will take you serious when you just come across as some classic egotastic American.  :?

he is referring to a gk tournament NAs won despite their ping.  it was close enough to say that good cav= good cav,  but still win is win and the epeen rights go to them ; )

also bad is eu playing on NA
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on January 02, 2013, 09:58:47 pm
Well he acts like his from NA, and I never see him on EU servers (although I hardly play EU1)
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: BADPLAYER_old2 on January 02, 2013, 10:02:53 pm
I don't play on EU much but the times I do I notice the standard of cavalry is WAY worse, for the best players and for just the average cav player. Whenever I play cavalry in EU strategus battles too the only person who comes close to me as cavalry DRZ_Naduril and i'm not even very good at cavalry anymore.

EU has better ranged NA has better cavalry, it is known- but just because your cavalry doesn't utilize the best and most OP cav builds doesn't mean they don't deserve to be nerfed.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on January 02, 2013, 10:08:11 pm
NA had way better cav when I played primarely over there for a month as a horsethrower, but their archers (all other ranged was better on NA though) were so hilariously bad that I could beat most of them at range with my throwing lances, guys like Aderyn who are among thier best are barely average in EU.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on January 02, 2013, 10:12:34 pm
I don't play on EU much but the times I do I notice the standard of cavalry is WAY worse, for the best players and for just the average cav player. Whenever I play cavalry in EU strategus battles too the only person who comes close to me as cavalry DRZ_Naduril and i'm not even very good at cavalry anymore.

EU has better ranged NA has better cavalry, it is known- but just because your cavalry doesn't utilize the best and most OP cav builds doesn't mean they don't deserve to be nerfed.

Strat is surely a whole different ball game then normal battle no? And because EU don't use OP builds you think we deserve a nerf? that makes sense. While you're at it nerf the 2h 21/18 18/21 builds their stupidly OP for the weapons they use.  :lol:
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Rumblood on January 02, 2013, 10:14:01 pm
Let me guess you also have the biggest dicks, guns, nukes, brains penuts and everything else you can think of. I really can't see how people can/will take you serious when you just come across as some classic egotastic American.  :?

I laughed at the ass umption turning a lack of argument into a stereotyping backfire.

And because EU don't use OP builds you think we deserve a nerf?

And still at it? You know Archers and kiting is an EU only problem right? Quit using OP builds and calling for nerfs!
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on January 02, 2013, 10:19:04 pm
Riiiight because NA never call for nerfs either  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Torben on January 02, 2013, 10:22:53 pm
(click to show/hide)

guess i havent been over there when your top players where on but whatever. str cav staking more kills then agi cav is a given.  still your propositions are quite meh,  they lock the fun equipment from too many players.  and killing fun and diversity in a game is contradictory to its purpose.  btw what happend to the fallen archer squad?  they were always decent.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Dalfador on January 02, 2013, 10:27:16 pm
I am not cav, but I think this is biased, because what I know of you, you are a lancer, and do not need as much STR as a 2h or 1h cav would.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Rumblood on January 02, 2013, 10:44:10 pm
Riiiight because NA never call for nerfs either  :rolleyes:

Perhaps, but we argue against the reasons given for a nerf.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on January 02, 2013, 10:46:06 pm
Sooo from this point on you're going tit for tat? nice.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Rumblood on January 02, 2013, 10:52:02 pm
Sooo from this point on you're going tit for tat? nice.  :rolleyes:

Why not? You've got nothing else. Don't appreciate an NA player using your schtick??

Personally I see this as an NA problem...

At the end of the day I can't really see or suggest a solution because I don't know anything about hybrid builds or how things are on NA, on EU I don't notice or see a problem...

this is very very clearly an NA problem

you just come across as some classic egotastic American.  :?

Well he acts like his from NA, and I never see him on EU servers (although I hardly play EU1)

Riiiight because NA never call for nerfs either  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on January 02, 2013, 11:04:31 pm
I don't really care what some random guy on the internet does unlike you, feel free to quote me all you like I really couldn't care less.  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Rumblood on January 02, 2013, 11:13:42 pm
I don't really care what some random guy on the internet does unlike you, feel free to quote me all you like I really couldn't care less.  :mrgreen:

Too late my internet friend, I'm already kicked back on the sofa munching chips in your head.  :wink:

Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: BADPLAYER_old2 on January 03, 2013, 12:39:33 am
I am not cav, but I think this is biased, because what I know of you, you are a lancer, and do not need as much STR as a 2h or 1h cav would.

2h/1h cav need the STR less since they do more damage if anything.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: oprah_winfrey on January 03, 2013, 02:53:42 am
guess i havent been over there when your top players where on but whatever. str cav staking more kills then agi cav is a given.  still your propositions are quite meh,  they lock the fun equipment from too many players.  and killing fun and diversity in a game is contradictory to its purpose.  btw what happend to the fallen archer squad?  they were always decent.

Your statement doesn't make sense. AGI based cav won't be effected because...well they have more riding. Badplayers changes only effect those who get 15 agi to go with a champ destrier and then stack strength.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: MLCA on January 03, 2013, 03:35:56 am
you guys forget that in alot of maps cav is just plain useless so with this change players would be penalized. Not to mention siege.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Vibe on January 03, 2013, 07:48:51 am
dis thread

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Torben on January 03, 2013, 09:03:35 am
Your statement doesn't make sense. AGI based cav won't be effected because...well they have more riding. Badplayers changes only effect those who get 15 agi to go with a champ destrier and then stack strength.

Well I am an agi cav and wouldnt be effected,  true.  But the fun horses will be locked away from anyone with a normal build. Not cool.  Clarified or still doesnt make sense to you?

seriously 18/18 @30 and you can ride a rouncey.  awesome.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Cepeshi on January 03, 2013, 12:15:28 pm
Right now it is far too easy to hybrid into cavalry without giving up anything in your melee build so that when you are dismounted you might as well be pure infantry which is incredibly unbalanced for obvious reasons.

(click to show/hide)


What I suggest is you having to dedicate alot more to riding in your build to use any good horses and to that end I think these are more fair Riding Requirements for horses:

Sumpter - 3 Riding Requirement
Rouncey/Palfrey/Steppe/Desert - 6 Riding Requirement
Destrier/Arabian/Courser - 7 Riding Requirement
All the Armoured Horses - 8 Riding Requirement



Cavalry should be as big an investment as archery in my opinion, instead of something you can throw 5 points into and gain a HUGE benefit with basically no drawbacks.
This also makes Heavy Cavalry alot more balanced in that they have to dedicate alot more into AGI thus making them easier to kill for all classes (but especially for archers who aim for rider and not horse which should be encouraged)

Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on January 03, 2013, 03:30:03 pm
Well I am an agi cav and wouldnt be effected,  true.  But the fun horses will be locked away from anyone with a normal build. Not cool.  Clarified or still doesnt make sense to you?

seriously 18/18 @30 and you can ride a rouncey.  awesome.
The fun horses as in the brokenly op lol-onehit bump destrier? The (at 3+) insanely agile arabian which is most likely the second best horse? The courser that is only really good for spawnraping?
While I personally do believe making Palfrey, steppe horses, and rounceys five riding and keeping the desert 6 riding would make more sense then I overall do not see the problem with these changes.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Gurnisson on January 03, 2013, 03:37:01 pm
The fun horses as in the brokenly op lol-onehit bump destrier? The (at 3+) insanely agile arabian which is most likely the second best horse? The courser that is only really good for spawnraping?
While I personally do believe making Palfrey, steppe horses, and rounceys five riding and keeping the desert 6 riding would make more sense then I overall do not see the problem with these changes.

Warhorses aren't good enough to warrant an 8 riding requirement. Destrier is arguably the best horse in the game and could have its requirement upped to 6 at least.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on January 03, 2013, 03:51:13 pm
Warhorses aren't good enough to warrant an 8 riding requirement. Destrier is arguably the best horse in the game and could have its requirement upped to 6 at least.
I agree about the warhorses (large and normal warhorse could use 7 like the destrier but anything above that in price sucks hard) but fuck, I think they're mean to be unusable, just look at the random high price.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 03, 2013, 03:54:13 pm
The armored horses suck dick.  The 3 best horses in the game are destrier, courser and arabian.  I'd ride the arabian if it didn't have 7 riding requirement. 

I'd rage pretty hard if they changed the riding requirements being that I'm at level 33 and never wanted to retire/respec again.  And I'm not alone.  The game has lost a healthy amount of people over the years by fucking up the requirements of equipment and then not giving people a free respec (at least those affected).

My bro (TommyHu) quit for at least 2 months, probably closer to 3 or 4 when they changed the riding requirement of the courser from 4 to 6 (which was a good change and much needed), but it completely fucked over his build which was built for only needing 4 riding and he was at level 33 or 34.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on January 03, 2013, 04:03:45 pm
Pretty sure some dev said that if you go over 31 and your build is turned to shit it's your own fault for going over 31, at least you'd get a title and 3 points now.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Torben on January 03, 2013, 04:09:41 pm
The fun horses as in the brokenly op lol-onehit bump destrier? The (at 3+) insanely agile arabian which is most likely the second best horse? The courser that is only really good for spawnraping?
While I personally do believe making Palfrey, steppe horses, and rounceys five riding and keeping the desert 6 riding would make more sense then I overall do not see the problem with these changes.

so you think one has to be a specialized no-life nerd to enjoy an armored horse,  or an unarmored that is of any use? people posting in this forum are too familiar with the game to actually take normal casual players into account. 

destroying the possibility of str staking cav is one thing,  doing it on the shoulders of casual players is another,  and not good for the mod. 

still think the str stalking would become less with the new wpf system.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on January 03, 2013, 04:11:59 pm
so you think one has to be a specialized no-life nerd to enjoy an armored horse,  or an unarmored that is of any use? people posting in this forum are too familiar with the game to actually take normal casual players into account. 
If being a specialized no-life nerd means having an agi build in c-rpg, then yes.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: oprah_winfrey on January 03, 2013, 04:14:06 pm
It may be worth noting that basically all of the horses that bad player has at 6 riding when loomed are currently a non loomed one we have now.

+3 Steppe Horse=+0 Arabian
+3 rouncey=+0 Destrier
+3 Palfrey=+0 courser
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Tovi on January 03, 2013, 05:01:12 pm
+3 Desert Horse is slightly better than arabian.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Equal on January 03, 2013, 07:43:58 pm
I actually kind of like the idea of making riding a 1 skill per 2 agility rather than 3. Then you could raise the riding requirements across the board so people need to sink 9-10 skill points to use a good horse, while they're builds would stay roughly the same.

Still should offer a respec imo.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Hobb on January 03, 2013, 08:14:29 pm
Riding reqs should have been upped for a long time now. Idk if 8 for the heavy horses is a good thing, i would to see all but 1-2 at 6 and have a few getted buffed stats n moved to 7. The courser/destrier should be 7.

I have a pretty unique perspective because of my build and my brother habbs. When we are both in the server, we always post KDs and valour farming scores despite our major build differences.

My build more or less represents the current system of a high lvl player who gets many cav kills and still is perfectly able to do fine on the ground. At 34 i have 6ps/if snd 7ath/riding. But even at 30 i had a complete 18-18 build.

But my brother Habb is a dedicated cataphract lancer with 0 if/ath and he just got 5ps at 33. He has 9 riding and 9wm with over 170 polearm wpf. Even with the heavy lance nerf he can 1shot a mail armor guy going full speed. Hes useless on the ground, but if he keeps his horse alive he scores just as well as any hybrid cav. If this WPF weapon master rework is any help to agi builds at all, his build is gona even more effective as well

I like the suggestion because it will nerf the hybrid cav who crutch off the good horses, but its still viable to do a full lancer build and be just as good.

I always thought a true hybrid cav should be forced to be a high level. Meaning they need lots of gold for upkeep and everyone knows they must be lvl 33 or 34 with lots of wealth,Crpg knights.


Also @ smoothriches posts

I would love a all good polearms and greatswords to be 3 slots inc lances. However giving the horse 1 invetory slot would go really well with this. So no more lance and long hafted spiked mace or great sword, but lance/shield/1h is still possible and this is a nice buff to HA. Yet, the added slot is a forced 1 slot item so you cant have a longsword for your backup as a lancer. When the horse goes down, the item it had gets dropped.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Ujin on January 04, 2013, 12:50:06 am
Seems like many some american players don't appreciate simple things like variety and fun. Some people here suggest such harsh and ridiculous nerfs than it's easier to just divide the whole cRPG character lvling system into strict native-like classes. 

Stay.Away.From.Balancing.Please
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Torben on January 04, 2013, 12:55:41 am
selling/trading a +3 Destrier.  Best horse in game,  so I´ve heard.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Malaclypse on January 04, 2013, 01:57:51 am
An alternative to cavalry balance would be to make it much easier for other classes to hybrid at the level of a Cavalry/Infantry hybrid, I suppose (being able to do so while retaining massive STR/PS benefits, I mean).
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: BADPLAYER_old2 on January 04, 2013, 03:51:32 am
Warhorses aren't good enough to warrant an 8 riding requirement. Destrier is arguably the best horse in the game and could have its requirement upped to 6 at least.


The Destrier is very good but the heavier horses are just flat out better. The warhorse especially is probably the most cost effective out of all the horses regarding how it will improve your KDR.


Consequently the arabian is by far the worst of all the "expensive" horses because it dies so fast to ranged, and if you want to play cavalry at all effectively for your team you should be going for archers and bumping groups of enemies not just going for solo people alone which is where the arabian excels.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: BADPLAYER_old2 on January 04, 2013, 03:53:44 am
realtalk if you don't get atleast an 8:1~ KDR as heavy cavalry please don't talk about heavy cav balance in this thread thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: BADPLAYER_old2 on January 04, 2013, 03:54:11 am
and while on that note if you don't get atleast 5:1 kdr as any other type of cavalry, again don't try talk about cav balance thx.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Cyclopsided on January 04, 2013, 04:16:17 am
realtalk if you don't get atleast an 8:1~ KDR as heavy cavalry please don't talk about heavy cav balance in this thread thanks in advance.
You're one of very few people who have a KDR that high as heavy cav. You're an expert at playing cav.

While I agree that something needs to be changed with cavalry, I do not believe it has to deal with the riding requirements of cavalry.
I personally believe there needs to be a change to maneuver. Higher top speed (slightly), but much lower maneuver. So cav have to commit more to going certain ways. Cav will be more balanced that way.
I proposed changes before, people liked them but they've been glossed over in time.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on January 04, 2013, 08:09:39 am
You're one of very few people who have a KDR that high as heavy cav. You're an expert at playing cav.

While I agree that something needs to be changed with cavalry, I do not believe it has to deal with the riding requirements of cavalry.
I personally believe there needs to be a change to maneuver. Higher top speed (slightly), but much lower maneuver. So cav have to commit more to going certain ways. Cav will be more balanced that way.
I proposed changes before, people liked them but they've been glossed over in time.
Lowering the max skill level of cav even further and making there be even less difference between the good and the shit cav sounds like a great idea! 1+
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Cyclopsided on January 04, 2013, 09:27:12 am
Lowering the max skill level of cav even further and making there be even less difference between the good and the shit cav sounds like a great idea! 1+
My suggestion does the exact opposite. It makes bad cav worse and good cav just as good if they think a tad a head, which good cav do.
I couldn't care to go find my entirely-written up suggestion, it was posted so long ago who knows where.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Overdriven on January 04, 2013, 05:25:41 pm
Riding requirements were moved around when it was the rage against the Arabian (most high level cav could still ride them anyway). I honestly don't think riding requirements are an adequate balancing tool in all reality. I also don't approve of killing hybrids. If anything I'd love to see the hybrids of old before the slot system. Added a rather nice element to builds and led to my very first fucked up HA/Lancer build. Killing that kind of character building was a mistake I think.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Gurnisson on January 04, 2013, 05:39:35 pm
The Destrier is very good but the heavier horses are just flat out better. The warhorse especially is probably the most cost effective out of all the horses regarding how it will improve your KDR.

Statwise I would pick a war horse or a large warhorse any day of the week, but after experimenting with different horses and riding points, I found destrier to be the best horse myself. I've tried large warhorse, war horse, mamluk horse, destrier, arabian, courser and rouncey all at +3, awith 5, 6, 7 and 10 riding and the destrier just feels like the best horse. Great bump damage, good speed, good at tanking, good maneuver. It's got pretty much everything.

Consequently the arabian is by far the worst of all the "expensive" horses because it dies so fast to ranged, and if you want to play cavalry at all effectively for your team you should be going for archers and bumping groups of enemies not just going for solo people alone which is where the arabian excels.

Well, if that's your view of things, then I would say that the courser is even worse. Arabian is made out of paper, true, but the high maneuver makes bumping enemies without being close to your teammates quite easy, at least compared to more heavier horses which is easy for the enemies to dodge. Makes the horse decent at supporting, even though it's fragile.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Casimir on January 04, 2013, 05:52:00 pm
buff war horse
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Felix_Iron on January 05, 2013, 10:35:35 am
Stop nerfing  cav in every large patches  :evil:

 
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Materia on January 05, 2013, 11:46:07 am
Increase the riding skill req`s, but give a buff to horses.
(click to show/hide)

Give some horses more HP, because seeing as they can be 1 shooted, or 1 hit makes some of them useless.

I dont use horses, and I wont, Im just killing them to easily, the unarmored ones.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Quentry on January 05, 2013, 03:39:54 pm
I think cav is too nerfed. I suggest to make angle of lancing like in native. Stats of MW horses are balanced (expect Palfrey I think they should increase hp and speed and body armor), BUT the upkeep of horses should be increased that horses may be used only by reach people like IRL(medieval)
And Buff heavy lance pls
P.S. I'm 1h
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on January 05, 2013, 05:22:13 pm
I think cav is too nerfed. I suggest to make angle of lancing like in native. Stats of MW horses are balanced (expect Palfrey I think they should increase hp and speed and body armor), BUT the upkeep of horses should be increased that horses may be used only by reach people like IRL(medieval)
And Buff heavy lance pls
P.S. I'm 1h

I agree about the palfrey that horse is just a very poor choice compared to the rouncey atm :-/ however increasing the upkeep of horses? Funny how I have to spend 3 days on siege to play one day on battle as cav before I'm broke. I'm not into selling looms or trading and I don't make a lot of gold and I do not wear heavy armor yet I hardly brake even as cav so only people who sell all their looms and have millions of gold sitting around can play as cav?

Summary: only rich 2 handers can make a cav alt because they have millions sitting around but the skilled cav or new players are not allowed to play cav because they can't afford it because they don't play enough to have stacked a lot of gold?

No thanks.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Kafein on January 05, 2013, 07:17:24 pm
My suggestion does the exact opposite. It makes bad cav worse and good cav just as good if they think a tad a head, which good cav do.
I couldn't care to go find my entirely-written up suggestion, it was posted so long ago who knows where.

I 100% agree with zlisch about this. Low maneuver = less freedom. Even with perfect "planning", you won't do anything if you can't turn. Worse yet, the less maneuver you have, the less your fate actually depends on you. "Planning" as cav in M&B is more often than not similar to throwing a dice. Will that guy turn around and insta poke me with his pike ? With low maneuver, if he does I can't avoid it. Will that archer sidestep at the last second ? Same. Things don't depend on what you think, things happen. Now you could say that I should not try those actions when there is a risk. In that case I would very soon find myself doing nothing at all, because everything is risky. Skill resides where you can take risky actions, but good experience with the game and good control of your horse allows you to save your life. The equivalent of this with low maneuver is "you were unlucky, someone saw you and jumpslashed you". Cav is much much more than a text based RPG, yet what you suggest is exactly trying to reduce it to that. A good cav will take advantage of high maneuver, a bad cav will not. Skill should give you the opportunity to be more reckless (just like with melee and ranged classes).

Btw I should really assess the cav awareness of NA players one day.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Torben on January 05, 2013, 07:44:35 pm
I think cav is too nerfed. I suggest to make angle of lancing like in native. Stats of MW horses are balanced (expect Palfrey I think they should increase hp and speed and body armor), BUT the upkeep of horses should be increased that horses may be used only by reach people like IRL(medieval)
And Buff heavy lance pls
P.S. I'm 1h

you have a point about having very few but strong cav,  however it shouldnt be balanced by gold,  Id rather see it balanced by some random fair factor.  like getting some tick for every minute you play and use those ticks as cav,  so anyone can have a strict amount of time playing in the saddle,  something like 1 in five maps or so.  would suck for random players again though cause they could only play once every few days as cav,  so meh.  fuck this.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on January 05, 2013, 07:47:30 pm
Ideally as many things as possible should be equally balanced, deciding "Lol let's make cav OP as fuck because lawl" is fucking retarded, and adding special ticks to play cav is even worse, upkeep is a bad enough system already, people shouldn't be forced into being bored for ten minutes in order to spend one minute doing something they enjoy, the entire upkeep concept is fucked up in general and so is your suggestion.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Torben on January 05, 2013, 07:57:25 pm
Ideally as many things as possible should be equally balanced, deciding "Lol let's make cav OP as fuck because lawl" is fucking retarded, and adding special ticks to play cav is even worse, upkeep is a bad enough system already, people shouldn't be forced into being bored for ten minutes in order to spend one minute doing something they enjoy, the entire upkeep concept is fucked up in general and so is your suggestion.

so meh.  fuck this.

dude. 
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Quentry on January 05, 2013, 08:40:56 pm
you have a point about having very few but strong cav,  however it shouldnt be balanced by gold,  Id rather see it balanced by some random fair factor.  like getting some tick for every minute you play and use those ticks as cav,  so anyone can have a strict amount of time playing in the saddle,  something like 1 in five maps or so.  would suck for random players again though cause they could only play once every few days as cav,  so meh.  fuck this.
It's game and it MUST be balanced, but in real life knights were overpowered (KO). Ok, increase upkeep of heavy horses and decrease HP of light ones, so everyone can play on lihgt horse but they'll be oneshoted by everybody. And return normal lancing and damage of heavy lance.
May be limit amount of cav about 25% of people on server?
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Quentry on January 05, 2013, 08:42:16 pm
Ideally as many things as possible should be equally balanced, deciding "Lol let's make cav OP as fuck because lawl" is fucking retarded, and adding special ticks to play cav is even worse, upkeep is a bad enough system already, people shouldn't be forced into being bored for ten minutes in order to spend one minute doing something they enjoy, the entire upkeep concept is fucked up in general and so is your suggestion.
What do you suggest to do?
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on January 05, 2013, 09:06:41 pm
It's game and it MUST be balanced, but in real life knights were overpowered (KO). Ok, increase upkeep of heavy horses and decrease HP of light ones, so everyone can play on lihgt horse but they'll be oneshoted by everybody. And return normal lancing and damage of heavy lance.
May be limit amount of cav about 25% of people on server?

Please stop suggesting increasing the upkeep of cav, its a very stupid Idea and wont help "balance" anything at all and will only allow Nolifers to play cav. Increasing upkeep will not balance anything.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on January 05, 2013, 09:20:45 pm
What do you suggest to do?
My complete suggestion for fixing cav?

Nerf bump damage into the dirt, allow people to block while knocked down (both by normal weapons and bumps), make cav more manueverable and faster, do so that ctrl+j (rearing your horse on your own) deals decent amounts of damage and knocks down people in front of you, do so that colliding with things heavily damages your horse, make cav really loud so it isn't about backstabbing anymore, add a qm-something command which will type with green text in chat "cav entered X m radius" whenever a cav (both ally and enemy) enters a certain radius of you, return the old lance angle, lower general lance length so that the longest couch only lance is 180reach and the longest normal lance is 165, (if possible) add sidestepping to horses, make cav require wpf in riding (higher wpf makes your horse faster and more maneuverable, each skill point in riding reduces effective riding wpf by 10 and you must have at least one effective wpf to ride a horse), make several high tier polearms/2h either unsheathable or 3slot, remove blocking from all lances but the light lance and the double sided lance, allow the double sided lance to stab backwards if you press x with it, remove the horse leg damage thing, make a hit to a horse stop the riders attack, and make cav spawn 15sec later than infantry to nerf spawnraping.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Torben on January 05, 2013, 09:40:21 pm
My complete suggestion for fixing cav?

Nerf bump damage into the dirt, allow people to block while knocked down (both by normal weapons and bumps), make cav more manueverable and faster, do so that ctrl+j (rearing your horse on your own) deals decent amounts of damage and knocks down people in front of you, make cav really loud so it isn't about backstabbing anymore, add a qm-something command which will type with green text in chat "cav entered X m radius" whenever a cav (both ally and enemy) enters a certain radius of you, return the old lance angle, lower general lance length so that the longest couch only lance is 180reach and the longest normal lance is 165, (if possible) add sidestepping to horses, make cav require wpf in riding (higher wpf makes your horse faster and more maneuverable, each skill point in riding reduces effective riding wpf by 10 and you must have at least one effective wpf to ride a horse), make several high tier polearms/2h either unsheathable or 3slot, remove blocking from all lances but the light lance and the double sided lance, allow the double sided lance to stab backwards if you press x with it, remove the horse leg damage thing, make a hit to a horse stop the riders attack, and make cav spawn 15sec later than infantry to nerf spawnraping.

a very nice summation of great (most of them) suggestions that a majority of the player base liked.  lets see what happens tomorrow : )
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: donib on January 05, 2013, 10:43:57 pm
The first issue was, a higher than lvl 30 cav build is both effective on horseback as infantry. It has turned now into a cav bash thread just to fuck up cav completely so that this game becomes Ned Stark kuyak 2 handed simulator or legolas simulator.

Am I the only one not complaining about the classes as they are except for the excessive use of archery lately, but it isn't because of the class, people are just into archery lately.
The only class that needs revision is xbow class.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Thomek on January 06, 2013, 12:33:42 am
Hell I'll chip in..  :twisted:

First of all, let's see what happens tomorrow.

But in general. Cav has always been the most effective class.. From almost 3 years of cRPG I think I can say they top the scoreboard most often compared to how few they are. I do understand my fellow badmin smooths enthusiasm here.

Take Torben, a fine gentleman who has my respect, but he can hardly block.  :mrgreen: Still I bet he has one of the finest K:D ratios of all cRPG due to being on a horse.. (and being decent with it)

I'm not for nerfing them into the ground, but let's face it.. Riding around with a giant poleaxe on your back must be rather impractical. I'd say you should either choose between a big ass lance or a big ass axe.

- Giving the lance 3 slots would kill the arhcetypical knight with lance and sword. I don't like it.
- Making big ass axes 3 slots would not be fair in the pole vs 2h battle.
- Making the big ass axes unsheathable I'd say is the best solution.. Perhaps with making minor riding adjustments for the horses.

And I can't remember cav ever being nerfed into the ground. All nerfs to them has been overcome by players and justified. It wouldn't hurt if they got it hard once..

And prices of weapons and armor and horses should be automatically adjusted by popularity, but that's another discussion..  (Perhaps as a percentage of their loom prices the last 30 days?)
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Torben on January 06, 2013, 12:35:26 am
its true :'D
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on January 06, 2013, 12:46:37 am
Hell I'll chip in..  :twisted:

First of all, let's see what happens tomorrow.

But in general. Cav has always been the most effective class.. From almost 3 years of cRPG I think I can say they top the scoreboard most often compared to how few they are. I do understand my fellow badmin smooths enthusiasm here. Cav is the class that is in general able to get the most kills, and the way it gets 99% of all its kills is also extremely lame, however all your suggestions for fixes are in my opinion in general, shit.

Take Torben, a fine gentleman who has my respect, but he can hardly block.  :mrgreen: Still I bet he has one of the finest K:D ratios of all cRPG due to being on a horse.. (and being decent with it) Torben is good on ground from what I recall, not 100% sure though, long since I've last seen him dismounted.

I'm not for nerfing them into the ground, but let's face it.. Riding around with a giant poleaxe on your back must be rather impractical. I'd say you should either choose between a big ass lance or a big ass axe.

- Giving the lance 3 slots would kill the arhcetypical knight with lance and sword. I don't like it.
- Making big ass axes 3 slots would not be fair in the pole vs 2h battle. Indeed, but you could also make the big ass 2hs either unsheathable or (if they got a real sheath) 3 slot, and that is a much better solution than any other.
- Making the big ass axes unsheathable I'd say is the best solution.. Perhaps with making minor riding adjustments for the horses.

And I can't remember cav ever being nerfed into the ground. All nerfs to them has been overcome by players and justified. It wouldn't hurt if they got it hard once..

And prices of weapons and armor and horses should be automatically adjusted by popularity, but that's another discussion..  (Perhaps as a percentage of their loom prices the last 30 days?) Shit idea, if every player started using a pitchfork it wouldn't make the pitchfork a better weapon, and upkeep is only a pain in the ass, not a real thing to stop you from doing something (those str plated charger cav will always ride their plated chargers).
Btw why'd you 1+d my suggestion when I clearly recall us having arguments with me more or less suggesting that exact thing in every one of the million nerf cav threads you've made?
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Thomek on January 06, 2013, 01:00:18 am
I can't remember Zlisch.. :) r u sure u are not one of the many obsessing over me again?

About Torben I was exaggerating.. But he's for sure much better on a horse than on the ground!
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on January 06, 2013, 01:04:24 am
I can't remember Zlisch.. :) r u sure u are not one of the many obsessing over me again?
I ain't, you were always asking for speed (and maybe bumps, this I'm not 100% sure about) buffs but maneuver nerfs while the main component of my suggestion was actually making cav maneuverable and fast while nerfing bump damage and reach, you made a thread called "cav the final solution" or something like that to which I replied making a thread switching the word cav with ninja in the OP, I got a near photographical memory with everything that isn't numbers.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: San on January 06, 2013, 01:09:20 am
I understand what you mean Thomek, but from a gameplay perspective, what makes that "big ass axe" any more of an effective choice compared to anything else? I personally think 1h + shield would be as or even more effective since you can use a shield with the lance and then a 1h weapon on foot.

I just think that melee cav should require a few more points to commit without barring them from using certain horses. Ranged don't need a double penalty when they already have HA and high wpf requirements. Melee cav players need neither currently.

Then make cav pay a bit more for mistakes (baseline-> damage for crashing into walls and rider stunned when horse rears). There were plenty of times I crashed into a wall or got stopped on purpose, got off my horse with no/little damage (horse could be in the way or a weak pikeman/hoplite stop you) and then had an advantage/equal terms over that opponent with 1h. If someone is near a wall, you can run him over and get off the horse before he can hit you back.
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: Thomek on January 06, 2013, 01:14:03 am
The thing about crashing into walls and louder/better sound suggestions is that they are technically infeasible for the devs.. They ain't gonna happen, so bury those ideas NOW! Stop dreaming!
(And shoot me down hard if they arrive in patch tomorrow!)
Title: Re: Increase Riding Requirements for most Horses
Post by: TurmoilTom on January 08, 2013, 08:30:29 pm
To me the cavalry problem seems like an issue inherent in the Battle game mode and the maps that are played there. You're never going to be able to make the perfectly balanced map, either. Every map will be favorable to one team or a few certain playstyles in some way to some degree. If you try playing as cavalry on Siege those 5 points in Riding will effectively be dead weight that could be better spent in Iron Flesh or Weapon Master... Well, most of the time, at least.

The only real solutions that I can think of that should make almost everyone more happy is an objective-based game mode with a Strategus-like ticket system (ie Conquest) or a WPF rework to promote adding WM to builds to maintain decent damage values. Given that the devs promised a WPF rework back in August last year, I don't foresee any proper solutions coming around in the near future.

TL;DR version: All our game modes suck. Buff WM. I want to hybrid more.