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Strategus => Strategus General Discussion => Topic started by: Boss_Awesome on December 27, 2012, 10:10:34 pm

Title: Strategus Battles - when time runs out
Post by: Boss_Awesome on December 27, 2012, 10:10:34 pm
I don't really get why the defenders win when time runs out.  This seems to be an unrealistic and rather shitty mechanic.  It would make a lot more sense to have an army withdraw and not lose any more troops/equipment or perhaps a small amount like 10% as a result of the route.  As it is now, the defender can put so many troops into a location that the attacker must cap flags to win and if they fail they lose everything.  If the timer running out was considered a tie then we would see more battles overall.  Some of the city/castle sieges might take multiple battles to win as the attacker would have to grind down enemy troops.  It would be more realistic as well since sieges typically were not over in a single battle historically. 

Title: Re: Strategus Battles - when time runs out
Post by: Haboe on December 27, 2012, 10:21:12 pm
Time limit it the only thing where defenders have the advantage.

Attacker has the option to fight wherever he wants, since he attacks.


So yea, its fine as it is.
Title: Re: Strategus Battles - when time runs out
Post by: oprah_winfrey on December 27, 2012, 10:31:01 pm
I thought everyone adopted the strategy of attacking in waves of ~1000-1500 troops so that when the run out of time, they are also out of troops.
Title: Re: Strategus Battles - when time runs out
Post by: Rikthor on December 27, 2012, 10:38:20 pm
I see where you are coming from but lets use that last city fight, FCC vs. Hospis. If FCC would have attacked with say 5k vs their 6k, assuming you didn't knock down all the flags, that is going to be one hell of a long fight. I might be in the minority but grinding down  that many tickets for either side for a few hours does not appeal to me as fun.

The waves Egan talked about to me is more fun and doable since you are not relegated to poopsocker status just to win a city.
Title: Re: Strategus Battles - when time runs out
Post by: Haboe on December 27, 2012, 10:48:46 pm
Yep, much more then 1500 and you can't use the tickets. Prevents battles that last hours and hours.
Title: Re: Strategus Battles - when time runs out
Post by: oprah_winfrey on December 27, 2012, 10:58:59 pm
I see where you are coming from but lets use that last city fight, FCC vs. Hospis. If FCC would have attacked with say 5k vs their 6k, assuming you didn't knock down all the flags, that is going to be one hell of a long fight. I might be in the minority but grinding down  that many tickets for either side for a few hours does not appeal to me as fun.

The waves Egan talked about to me is more fun and doable since you are not relegated to poopsocker status just to win a city.

Yeah, huge 10k on 10k battles sound cool, until 6 hours pass, there are still thousands of troops left, and you have work in a few hours.
Title: Re: Strategus Battles - when time runs out
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on December 27, 2012, 11:00:23 pm
Being as we're defending right now, I don't want to go into suggesting things that would hurt us, but I'm going to do just that!

If you're an attacking army, laying siege to a city or castle and you decide to retreat with 1000 men and equipment, you should be able to keep most of the equipment you have left, and most of the men you have left.

It's not like the defenders came sallying out and took your flags and routed the enemy.  If the defenders DO want to sally out and attack the retreating army, then they can do so, but they have to physically do that on the strat map.

Never understood why retreating with men (when attacking a castle or city) lost you all your men and a majority of your gear.  They should change the wording to "surrender" (and really think about implementing a retreat option).
Title: Re: Strategus Battles - when time runs out
Post by: Tomas on December 27, 2012, 11:12:14 pm
Never understood why retreating with men (when attacking a castle or city) lost you all your men and a majority of your gear.  They should change the wording to "surrender" (and really think about implementing a retreat option).

It used to be a proper retreat function but it had to have overly complicated looting rules to prevent abuse.  The system had to discourage attackers from instantly retreating, encourage attackers to actually attack and reward defenders for actually defending.  The current system does all that and has the added advantage of being extremely simple to explain. 

The only addition that needs to happen is a system whereby walls stay destroyed for at least 24 hours after a battle, as right now there is a bit too much defender advantage.
Title: Re: Strategus Battles - when time runs out
Post by: Butan on December 27, 2012, 11:30:29 pm
The waves attack (a.k.a. maximum battle time) is a good solution to avoid the 5+ hours long battles that happened in previous strat. Only no-lifers were capable of doing them, and you couldnt hire participants for the "second part of the battle" so you had to stay there until the end if you really wanted to win.


But what happens when everybody recruited enough troops numbers so they can replenish per waves of 1500 until the end of time ? Noone moves, and those who moves, dies and are never to be seen again (or they need uber strategy + a lot of backing up).



The rate at which troops dies is "too slow".

NOT because the rate at which troops are recruited is too fast, but because attacking is uber-risky and audacious : thus the game is packed with troops everywhere, and noone dares to send them.

This is due to the combination of :

** timer running out = all dead
** retreat = all dead
** losing = 25% loot + attacked again then = all dead



+ attacking in waves is almost always equals to :

** takes days or even weeks = enemy reinforcements (see Slezkh Castle situation for example)
** defenders accumulate loots = no gear problem if camping




If a fief is properly manned, there is not enough incentive to attack it, even for a great faction against a small one (thats not necesseraly a bad thing but its an example of the overpowered defense game mechanic). Players should have options to attack and do damage even if the defense is large and present.
There should be more incentive to attack, so that armies CAN capture things (and not only undermanned and underquipped fiefs, and they become rarer and rarer!!!) and that this fief defense doom-stacking STOP !



Possible tweaks:
(click to show/hide)




The system had to discourage attackers from instantly retreating, encourage attackers to actually attack and reward defenders for actually defending.

I know you posted before me but please, can you read my ideas and tell me if they are sound ? You look like you know how this should work, and how it actually work but with some flaws.


The only addition that needs to happen is a system whereby walls stay destroyed for at least 24 hours after a battle, as right now there is a bit too much defender advantage.


Great idea that would give more incentive to attack. +1.



Title: Re: Strategus Battles - when time runs out
Post by: Boss_Awesome on December 27, 2012, 11:55:20 pm
I must have written the opening post poorly, let me clarify.  I want the battle times to remain the same, just when it is over it ends where defender is still in control of the fief.  Lets say Kesh attacks a city with 5000 troops.  He fails and runs out of time with 3k troops left.  The defender retains control of the fief and gets a portion of the gear used in the fight.  Kesh keeps his 3000 troops and whatever gear was not used.  Then Kesh can schedule another battle 24 hours out.  No poop socks required and more fights!!!!
Title: Re: Strategus Battles - when time runs out
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on December 28, 2012, 12:53:24 am
I support Boss_Awesome's idea based on the principle that the current system makes absolutely no sense when you look at it from a realism perspective.
Title: Re: Strategus Battles - when time runs out
Post by: Tomas on December 28, 2012, 02:01:47 am
I must have written the opening post poorly, let me clarify.  I want the battle times to remain the same, just when it is over it ends where defender is still in control of the fief.  Lets say Kesh attacks a city with 5000 troops.  He fails and runs out of time with 3k troops left.  The defender retains control of the fief and gets a portion of the gear used in the fight.  Kesh keeps his 3000 troops and whatever gear was not used.  Then Kesh can schedule another battle 24 hours out.  No poop socks required and more fights!!!!

But what in that system stops Kesh from simply sitting at the battle and not actually attacking?  He could lock a fief down for 24 hours, including all the troops in it and then retreat for minimal and calculable losses.  Retreating becomes a strategy again and one that encourages boring battles.  As it stands the attacker is forced to attack and is forced to try their absolute hardest to kill off the defenders as quickly and as efficiently as possible which makes for a fun battle.

What you ask for Boss_Awesome can easily be achieved by Kesh simply giving 3k troops to someone else stood nearby and only attacking with 2k.  This is what everybody else does and we then send the attacks in waves. 

The system was changed to prevent entire factions falling in the space of a few days as they did in Strat 3.  It has gone a little too far in the defenders favour imo and made the strat map tactics too defensive but better that than defensive tactics in the actual strat battles.
Title: Re: Strategus Battles - when time runs out
Post by: Keshian on December 28, 2012, 07:33:31 am
But what in that system stops Kesh from simply sitting at the battle and not actually attacking?  He could lock a fief down for 24 hours, including all the troops in it and then retreat for minimal and calculable losses.  Retreating becomes a strategy again and one that encourages boring battles.  As it stands the attacker is forced to attack and is forced to try their absolute hardest to kill off the defenders as quickly and as efficiently as possible which makes for a fun battle.

What you ask for Boss_Awesome can easily be achieved by Kesh simply giving 3k troops to someone else stood nearby and only attacking with 2k.  This is what everybody else does and we then send the attacks in waves. 

The system was changed to prevent entire factions falling in the space of a few days as they did in Strat 3.  It has gone a little too far in the defenders favour imo and made the strat map tactics too defensive but better that than defensive tactics in the actual strat battles.

It doesnt have to be black or white - all or nothing.  Make it a a minimum 25% of troops/remaining gear lost, with a sliding scale going up to 50 or 75% the earlier you retreat so if you use them to tie up someone's army you lose 75% but if you really fight you only lose 25% of what remains at the end of a real battle.  problem solved and makes strat map more active.  Currently its too much of a stalemate in eu and na side where attackers always get all the risks and defenders barely get any and favors the inactive turtlish clans that like to sit around all strat doing nothing over active vibrant clans that attack and play it as a war simulator instead of a simcity simulator.
Title: Re: Strategus Battles - when time runs out
Post by: Tomas on December 28, 2012, 02:48:34 pm
It doesnt have to be black or white - all or nothing.  Make it a a minimum 25% of troops/remaining gear lost, with a sliding scale going up to 50 or 75% the earlier you retreat so if you use them to tie up someone's army you lose 75% but if you really fight you only lose 25% of what remains at the end of a real battle.  problem solved and makes strat map more active.  Currently its too much of a stalemate in eu and na side where attackers always get all the risks and defenders barely get any and favors the inactive turtlish clans that like to sit around all strat doing nothing over active vibrant clans that attack and play it as a war simulator instead of a simcity simulator.

So what actually forces you to attack in that system?  You can start a battle and then hug your spawn until the end for just 25% losses.
Title: Re: Strategus Battles - when time runs out
Post by: Butan on December 28, 2012, 06:04:21 pm
So what actually forces you to attack in that system?  You can start a battle and then hug your spawn until the end for just 25% losses.


Hugging a spawn as attacker is very risky imo :

- if defenders doesnt sally out, your playerbase could revolt and/or disconnect en masse, leading to being undermanned and, ultimely, death.
- if defenders sally out, if you get powned you lose flags and voila, dead. If they doesnt get you they spawn back before you can use the "momentum".
- losing 25% (could make it to 33% minimum imo) of a 1500 man army isnt a small thing and if you exploit it commonly you will finish the war on the losing side.


I think we should take the example of the 1/3 army sent to lockdown for 24 hours and EXTEND it to the retreat system. That way we would open a "exploiting" path of the retreat but keep it costy enough (like when sacrificing 3x 600 men army to delay an incoming invasion of 3 1500+ armies is a good use of the 1/3 rule (see Grey's action against Mercs at the end of Tshibtin area campaign)) so that factions doesnt end up aboozing it but using it in some cases when the cost/result ratio is reasonnable enough.


I think we ALL AGREE that defending is too easy in Strat 4.

We need to find a bulletproof way to add advantages to attacking, and this topic may be what we need.
Title: Re: Strategus Battles - when time runs out
Post by: Boss_Awesome on December 28, 2012, 07:18:01 pm
Remove the retreat command to avoid someone locking down and retreating.  And if attackers are going to hug spawn then that sounds like a legitimate tactic.  In this situation the attackers are engaging with caution rather than throwing everything they have into the fray, a tactic that has been used in siege warfare historically.
Title: Re: Strategus Battles - when time runs out
Post by: Tomas on December 28, 2012, 07:22:57 pm
Remove the retreat command to avoid someone locking down and retreating.  And if attackers are going to hug spawn then that sounds like a legitimate tactic.  In this situation the attackers are engaging with caution rather than throwing everything they have into the fray, a tactic that has been used in siege warfare historically.

You want to spend 2 hours in a battle where neither side actually attacks?
Title: Re: Strategus Battles - when time runs out
Post by: Kanclerz on December 29, 2012, 10:27:45 pm
Time is end = attacker lost and losses all eq and tickets.


P.S.
Real, fresh material as it was!
UIF is always better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_zAZxUEses
Title: Re: Strategus Battles - when time runs out
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on December 31, 2012, 03:11:03 pm
I honestly think there's good sides to both arguments.  And although I've always held Kesh's opinion (doesn't have to be all or nothing) what Tomas points out is very real concerns that would have to be addressed in order to make it work.

I don't know what the answer is, I really do wish there was an easy way to make it possible to retreat from a SIEGE as the attacker (not a battle) and still keep some troops and gear.  But it could be easily abused as Tomas points out.

I think attacking in waves is what needs to continue to happen.
Title: Re: Strategus Battles - when time runs out
Post by: Keshian on December 31, 2012, 06:01:17 pm
You want to spend 2 hours in a battle where neither side actually attacks?

1) Still far less likely to be abused then the current setup where defenders just overstock fiefs with troops knowing about the ridiculous retreat setup for attackers, which means attacks are far more rare in general.

2) If attackers go defensive it actually would be a legitimate tactic similar to real battle - sudden reinforcements or underestimating the egar setup makes them realize the defenders have them outmanned.  Defenders would need to go offensive for once in order to bleed more tickets offf the opposing side with their superior numbers and gear.  And Boss_Awesome is right - i just threw 25% out there - 1/3rd rule might be better. Also, no battles last 2 hour anymore unless you have 3000+ troops on each side and that was 1 hr. 42 minutes last time.  No one is just going to lose 1000 troops and 1/3rd their gear just to "tie" up some fief or person. when they could bleed the enemy side of tickets with those 1000 troops.

3) Also, retreats should take 1/3rd - 1/2 your gold, unlike normal losses.

4) I don't know about other people but i would prefer a few rare battles where some attackers are just delaying (and it has to be with real gear - otherwise the defenders would just destroy them and cap flags) over having massive stalemates with nothing happening on both maps because its so ridiculous to attack right now.

5)  If flags are capped they lose everything (we should be able to distinguish between end of time/retreat call over enemy capping flags), which means atatckers playing defensive run the real risk of losing everything versus bleeding enemy tickets before they lose by charging.

6) Frankly, its worth a try - strat 2 was a lot more fun and dynamic under the old system even with several delaying battles mixed among the many many battles that went on.
Title: Re: Strategus Battles - when time runs out
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on December 31, 2012, 06:18:53 pm
I'm not sure if it was ever done either, but having a sally port and/or a main portcullis would be great on every castle and city map.  I know some castles I've fought have had them, but not sure if they all do.

This would enable the defenders to sally out easier to take out attackers who were trying to delay.

Also being able to win gold from battles would be nice (but that may be for another suggestion thread). 

I personally don't like how it's really a "defensive" game to lose right now.  It hurts people who are defending their homelands as well, because you can't easily sally out an army and attack an invader, because now they enjoy the benefits of being the defender in the battle.  When in reality, it should be pretty much even on the open field. 

There's gotta be an answer that solves the issue with running out of time and still having troops/gear left (or even retreating) and not being easily exploitable.  Maybe the answer is to not let people keep stuff when they retreat, but allow them to keep some of their troops and gear if time runs out?  I think 1/3 sounds like a good # to me...who's going to throw away 2/3 of their troops and equipment to lock down a fief for 24 hours?  And even if they think that it's worth it to do, wouldn't the defenders be okay with taking out 2/3's of an attacking force?  If you want to take out 100% then sally out and take their flags.
Title: Re: Strategus Battles - when time runs out
Post by: Kanclerz on January 03, 2013, 10:20:15 am
The attacker always has the right to retreat.
During the siege of the same, only he can.
Let's be realistic, enough already, these modified 2h swords, faster than 1h.
In a normal battle, both parties have the right to retreat.

Is good as it is, does not change anything.
Title: Re: Strategus Battles - when time runs out
Post by: Arathian on January 04, 2013, 02:13:45 pm
historically, how it worked, was that the attacker would cut off the enemy city and start sieging it with waves of attacks.

IMO, the game should be like this: attacker can keep attacking, when he retreats/time runs out, he loses a small % of his army, no more than 10% preferably 5%, and defender gets gear loot.

Defender can't reinforce, attacker can. What that means is that defenders, like historically, would be forced to bring over reinforcements to try to break through the siege or even rout the enemy. See battle of Vienna, for example.

That way, defending is still advantageous (battle time still on your favor, you get gear, fortifications) but attacking is perfectly feasible and becomes more about tactics and less about battling time with, in the overall scheme of things, time being on your hand, ergo, exactly as it was historically.

The one restriction I would put is that the attacker, to be able to siege a city, would have to have equal or more amount of troops (not population) than the defending city as to avoid 50 troops locking down cities for days on end.

I really can't see how this can be exploited. Attackers could lock down cities until help would come, like they did historically, defenders would have home advantage, like they did historically, but a city left to its fate would eventually fall.....like they did historically.
Title: Re: Strategus Battles - when time runs out
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on January 04, 2013, 05:24:19 pm
Quote
Hugging a spawn as attacker is very risky imo

You're damn right it is. After maybe ten minutes I'd start tking our leadership because they're acting like big, fucking pussies.

This would start an unstoppable TK war in our spawn, and everyone would die.

So, that solves the camping problem for attackers.
Title: Re: Strategus Battles - when time runs out
Post by: Butan on January 04, 2013, 06:52:28 pm
IMO, the game should be like this: attacker can keep attacking, when he retreats/time runs out, he loses a small % of his army, no more than 10% preferably 5%, and defender gets gear loot.  + Defender can't reinforce, attacker can.

Dat would be awesome and balanced me thinks. BIG BIG +1 for "defenders cant reinforce" : it would really give a "siege" feeling of a city, if you can still attack per waves with a big ass army, until time runs out, then you retreat and attack again later with the remnant... BUT the defenders cant "break through" the besiegers without ATTACKING THE ATTACKERS !

IMO that would be enough to fix the defense/attack balance because a sieged city would require external help to kill off the besieging party, and not only "sneak past" it all and give all kind of gear and troops to the besieged city like nothing is happening every time a new attack is set and you have 5 fucking hours to act like a dick.

I know that if you have "intercepting" forces near the besieged fief you can prevent it but its fucking hard to have one guy "monitor" the situation on his computer for that long a time, just give the attacker a better chance to win.


Quote from: Arathian
The one restriction I would put is that the attacker, to be able to siege a city, would have to have equal or more amount of troops (not population) than the defending city as to avoid 50 troops locking down cities for days on end.

It would only be feasible if they gave the possibility to retreat without losing everything, and if they didnt, actually you can siege a city with something like 1/3 of the troops inside (thats what some testing from me and my mates told me).
Title: Re: Strategus Battles - when time runs out
Post by: Arathian on January 05, 2013, 05:59:34 pm
The thing is butan, if this was the problem, then attackers would try to lock down the city for days on end, that is why I said this restriction.

Also, because it makes sense. Just more troops is logical, else one could just raid the place and get all gear anyway.
Title: Re: Strategus Battles - when time runs out
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on January 05, 2013, 06:10:55 pm
The thing is butan, if this was the problem, then attackers would try to lock down the city for days on end, that is why I said this restriction.

Also, because it makes sense. Just more troops is logical, else one could just raid the place and get all gear anyway.
Why not just allow the city to sally forth and attack the attacking lockdown army at any time?
Title: Re: Strategus Battles - when time runs out
Post by: kinngrimm on January 17, 2013, 11:29:02 pm
yes to huge army siege and not loosing stuff over it when they retreat or run out of time, while the attacker gets some loot from the battle field. Sieged castles/towns are locked down and cant be reinforced, but the besieging army could be attacked.

Also when an army with like 5k attacks, and afterwards runs out of time or retreats, please get them the same battle time reserved for the next attacks then those before, so that over the days the battle time doesn't change to enormous late night battles.

also +9000 to walls which need to be repaired by PP and gold
Title: Re: Strategus Battles - when time runs out
Post by: Kanclerz on January 18, 2013, 11:58:26 am
Castle walls and City walls must pay to be repaired? Bullshit
The Defender does not have the money to pay for the repairs as is?
He fighting in Castle with broken walls? Stupid idea Kingrimm.
I think that it is too big a change for this version of strategus.

Maybe in new strategus developers add this option.
In Total War series this option is good you pay, you wait a X time and walls are repaired.

If you have to pay for it you must add the castle walls/city also the option to upgrade this stronghold.
Build new Towers, thicker walls and Ballista for defenders :).

Title: Re: Strategus Battles - when time runs out
Post by: kinngrimm on January 18, 2013, 08:30:46 pm
Castle walls and City walls must pay to be repaired? Bullshit
The Defender does not have the money to pay for the repairs as is?
He fighting in Castle with broken walls? Stupid idea Kingrimm.
I think that it is too big a change for this version of strategus.

Maybe in new strategus developers add this option.
In Total War series this option is good you pay, you wait a X time and walls are repaired.

If you have to pay for it you must add the castle walls/city also the option to upgrade this stronghold.
Build new Towers, thicker walls and Ballista for defenders :).
Stupid is a matter of perspective. For instance i can argue about something if it is realistic and/or adds benefits to the game play, i can't argue about someone finding something ... stupid .. that then would be stupid to talk about.

So Defenders who get a lot of leftover gear after defending, which they can sell, gives them gold. Having 7k gold to repair walls and investing the daily income of Production Points +1 to keep the walls repaired is also doable.

If i you want to wait for the new game so that you can play a more enjoyable game, then you shouldn't participate in this discussion, as out of your perspective it is already a waist of time. Perhaps we get some information at some point of devs, if they intend to further develop this mod and also bring it to M&B2, as an own game still is a different pair of shoes as we say in germany.
Title: Re: Strategus Battles - when time runs out
Post by: Kanclerz on January 18, 2013, 11:15:39 pm
Sorry Kingrimm.
Perhaps slightly exaggerated, but a good idea for a new Strategus