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Off Topic => General Off Topic => Topic started by: Sniger on December 25, 2012, 08:27:00 pm

Title: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Sniger on December 25, 2012, 08:27:00 pm
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 25, 2012, 08:48:18 pm
What'cha expect, Piers Morgan is like one of CNNs biggest idiots, and CNN got a shitload of idiots.
When I originally saw that interview I felt like throwing something at Piers.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Kafein on December 25, 2012, 09:42:06 pm
To be honest, they are both stupid.


I mean wtf :

"you want to help the criminals !"
"murder rates are higher in cities omfg !"
"but he EVIL, y u no shoot EVIL ?"
"but we can't defend ourselves without over 9000 bullets :("
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 25, 2012, 09:46:21 pm
To be honest, they are both stupid.


I mean wtf :

"you want to help the criminals !"
"murder rates are higher in cities omfg !"
"but he EVIL, y u no shoot EVIL ?"
"but we can't defend ourselves without over 9000 bullets :("
I agree, 'cept for the criminals part.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Sniger on December 25, 2012, 10:01:26 pm
you guys are missing the point :p

one side says more guns, other side says less.

what do u think?

personally i belong to the side that belive in less gun = safer. i think the stats speak for themselfs
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Nehvar on December 25, 2012, 11:04:42 pm
Piers Morgan is such a massive douche that I am honestly surprised he is not on FoxNEWS.  I can't stand watching his program for more than a few minutes.

That said, I'm in the "less guns" camp.  I don't see any reason for semi-automatic weaponry to be available to the general public outside of Alaska.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Overdriven on December 25, 2012, 11:19:13 pm
Piers Morgan has long been looked down upon by the UK's media. Almost everyone who works in the business hates him, many for good reasons. He'll do anything for a story and loves nothing better than to humiliate and ruin people's names. The fact he was pretty well involved in the phone hacking scandal at news of the world only worsen's his reputation. Although many journalist's are like this, he has gained a reputation.

Every time I hear his voice I cringe.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Sniger on December 25, 2012, 11:46:31 pm
didnt knew the guy till i watched this b ut ok sounds like he is a real drama queen.

a friend of mine replied "i totally support americans right to kill eachother!" and i must admit i loled.

he do have some kind of point though. its abit like gangbangers and such... put them all on an island and let them kill eachother. dont get me wrong its not like i hate the general american, but i do think they (goverment and many many puplic figures) have a really strange view on the world. i reckon they will say similar about me/us ^^
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Kafein on December 25, 2012, 11:51:52 pm
I agree, 'cept for the criminals part.

Well he implied quite clearly that "if you are not pro-guns, you are trying to be friend with the criminals", which would be enough for me to label that guy as an idiot even without all the other crap he said.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 25, 2012, 11:57:47 pm
Well he implied quite clearly that "if you are not pro-guns, you are trying to be friend with the criminals", which would be enough for me to label that guy as an idiot even without all the other crap he said.
I personally do believe that taking away guns from law abiding citizens helps criminals, however I am fully aware that people who are anti guns don't believe it'll help criminals, and people who are pro guns do not want to see children massacred.
Even einstein (can't believe that Shitler is censored into einstein, lol) believed he was doing the right thing when he killed millions of innocent civilians, there are no real evil people ('cept some mentally fucked up people), just people with different views on what is right.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: SMEGMAR on December 26, 2012, 01:16:03 am
The Sandy Hook shooting was an inside job perpetrated by mossad agents. Two other alleged shooters were apprehended on live television after running from police. There has been no news on these two, no doubt sent back to israel, escaping any charges. Both Adam Lanza and James Holmes are the sons of executives who are set to testify in federal court regarding the LIBOR scandal. What a perfect situation for the state-funded media to exploit. The tears of grieving parents sure do sell. Now the president is fake-crying for the 26 people who were magically Trayvon'd and now all of the MSNBCmy old friends are screaming, "ban all semi-autos!". Y'know who was for gun control? The third reich. The second amendment exists so the people can atleast try to overthrow their government if need be. Shame that people today are convinced that could never happen. The zionist lobby has started their war on the second amendment, rise to arms my brothers!
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 26, 2012, 01:21:43 am
SMEGMAR, from what I've seen of you I'm afraid you're not joking, hope I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: SMEGMAR on December 26, 2012, 01:23:47 am
I'm only half serious.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 26, 2012, 01:38:57 am
I'm only half serious.
Thank goat.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Rumblood on December 26, 2012, 01:52:54 am
We've seen what happens when the bad guys have guns in places where guns are banned. Here is what happens when the good guys are allowed to have their guns too:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/florida-man-71-shoots-alleged-robbers-internet-cafe/story?id=16800859#.UNpJLHfMujk (http://abcnews.go.com/US/florida-man-71-shoots-alleged-robbers-internet-cafe/story?id=16800859#.UNpJLHfMujk)




I know which side of the debate I'm on.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: pingpong on December 26, 2012, 02:55:02 am
The problem is not guns per se, culture plays a big part also, take japan for instance where gun control is soo tight hardly anyone owns one there, and also theres hardly any crimes committed with guns there, but japan is also really authority oriented culture, unlike US where people literally take a piss at GOV every now and then, and add to tis all the government conspiracy wackos you get a society not really keen on having no guns policies.

Also, pierce morgan is a tool.

Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Christo on December 26, 2012, 07:56:31 am
"but we can't defend ourselves without over 9000 bullets :("

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Dat mentality.  :)

Fooling aside, it's 'murrica. What did you expect?  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Havoco on December 26, 2012, 10:29:51 am
What else are you gonna get from interviewing the exec of gun owners of America? That's about as biased as asking a political title runner who you should vote for.
Typical media
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Kafein on December 26, 2012, 12:55:51 pm
What else are you gonna get from interviewing the exec of gun owners of America? That's about as biased as asking a political title runner who you should vote for.
Typical media

Well at least it's better than

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I personally do believe that taking away guns from law abiding citizens helps criminals, however I am fully aware that people who are anti guns don't believe it'll help criminals, and people who are pro guns do not want to see children massacred.
Even einstein (can't believe that Shitler is censored into einstein, lol) believed he was doing the right thing when he killed millions of innocent civilians, there are no real evil people ('cept some mentally fucked up people), just people with different views on what is right.

Einstein sent a letter to roosevelt, alerting that the germans were developping the bomb, and urging the US to start developping the bomb themselves, not to actually use it.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Sniger on December 26, 2012, 01:38:49 pm
US is a christian nation.

http://bible.cc/matthew/26-52.htm (http://bible.cc/matthew/26-52.htm)
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 26, 2012, 03:15:39 pm
Well at least it's better than

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This is why I barely ever watch news.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: [ptx] on December 26, 2012, 03:24:10 pm
Not sure why or how, but i received this e-mail:

(click to show/hide)

I am truly enlightened now.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Molly on December 26, 2012, 04:16:50 pm
I stopped reading when he started with that paedophile being send by Tony Blair or something... Holy Spaghetti-Meatball-Monster...  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Tibe on December 26, 2012, 05:12:15 pm
Estonian normal gymclass if guns were US tipe of legal  :lol:. Watch it, funny as hell, dont even need subtitles for it:
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Kafein on December 26, 2012, 05:32:51 pm
"Gun bans work well for tyrants. They worked well for einstein, Stalin and Chairman Mao, to name just three."

Sounds legit.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Rumblood on December 26, 2012, 06:00:31 pm
One thing about it, if America's military somehow managed to get its ass kicked and the country were invaded, it would never ever be able to be controlled. Afghanistan would be a military advisors wet dream in comparison. Every man, woman, and child would be carrying a weapon or improvised (or military grade) explosive device. With our survivalist culture, there is also fortified bunkers across the country with supplies to last for years, and more would be created every day.

Our government knows this too. Who would you be more concerned about? The flower in the hair peaceniks? Or the huge army of gun toting hardcore constitutional rights activists?
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Ujin on December 26, 2012, 06:31:03 pm
One thing about it, if America's military somehow managed to get its ass kicked and the country were invaded, it would never ever be able to be controlled. Afghanistan would be a military advisors wet dream in comparison. Every man, woman, and child would be carrying a weapon or improvised (or military grade) explosive device. With our survivalist culture, there is also fortified bunkers across the country with supplies to last for years, and more would be created every day.

Our government knows this too. Who would you be more concerned about? The flower in the hair peaceniks? Or the huge army of gun toting hardcore constitutional rights activists?
Paranoid country is paranoid.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Tibe on December 26, 2012, 06:41:44 pm
Frankly to me it seems USA is an example of gunfreedom gone a little bit to far. I mean small firearms selling or large caliber huntingrifles selling that has a slow fire and reload rate with massive background check works fine imo. I quess that really is for protection, it works in most countries. Selling civilians mothafucking machineguns and Bushman assaultrifles is just freaking insane. Why the hell would you need a Bushman to protect your family, what are you gonna overkill the homeinvaders just incase the turn into zombies? And you might say that there are also guncollectors who just collect these.  But basically the main argument here for gunnuts is that its protection. There is no protection to be had from assault rifles.....only more innocent bystanders getting shot.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Sniger on December 26, 2012, 06:53:17 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Rumblood on December 26, 2012, 06:58:29 pm
Paranoid country is paranoid.

WWI never happened. World War II was a lie. The Soviet Union was a media-inspired fantasy. Every country in the world loves the U.S.A. and wishes it only the best. The U.S. Government would never imprison its own citizens for "the safety of the country". :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Sniger on December 26, 2012, 07:10:15 pm
rumble >> your signature is funnyh
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Christo on December 26, 2012, 07:49:54 pm
"Gun bans work well for tyrants. They worked well for einstein, Stalin and Chairman Mao, to name just three."

Sounds legit.

Aha!

So it was Einstein all along..
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Angantyr on December 26, 2012, 08:13:41 pm
The solution to gun violence is clear (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/fareed-zakaria-the-solution-to-gun-violence-is-clear/2012/12/19/110a6f82-4a15-11e2-b6f0-e851e741d196_story.html?tid=pm_pop) (Washington Post opinions)


The Real West - The Law From Behind The Tin Star (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLztsh6gK9Y) (Youtube doc)
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Kafein on December 26, 2012, 08:47:04 pm
The Real West - The Law From Behind The Tin Star (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLztsh6gK9Y) (Youtube doc)

Ho god the comments of this one
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Sniger on December 26, 2012, 10:17:30 pm
The solution to gun violence is clear (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/fareed-zakaria-the-solution-to-gun-violence-is-clear/2012/12/19/110a6f82-4a15-11e2-b6f0-e851e741d196_story.html?tid=pm_pop) (Washington Post opinions)

awesome article, well written. the logic is undeniable in my POW. but then again im just a simple dane living in a tiny country, maybe im over-protected and spoiled... hmms

for some reason noone brought up the movie Bowling for Columbine by michael moore or have i just missed it? the article made me remember it and i think the movie is more relevant than ever eventho its 11 years old.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Christo on December 27, 2012, 08:48:05 am
Ho god the comments of this one

Quoting:

"LOL!!! WE ARE SIVILISED!! WE DONOT GRAB TWO SEMI AUTO PISOLS & AN ASULT RIFLE, KILL OUR MOTHER & GO TO THE LOCAL SCHOOL & MURDER 20 BABIES AND THEIRE TEACHERS!!!!! NOW THAT IS "CUTE!!!!" WINSTON CHURCHILL NEVER "BEGGED" FOR HELP. "WE" NEED HELP FROM "CUNTS" IN THE "usa" TO TAKE CARE OF "US???" YOU ARE A FUCKING INDREED IDIOT!!!!!! GET "YOUR" HISTORY RIGHT BEFORE YOU MAKE A COMMENT!! FUCKING DUMB ASS!!!!! HAAAAAA!!!! HAAAAAAAA!!!!!! HAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!"

Holy mother of god.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: SMEGMAR on December 27, 2012, 02:59:59 pm
"Gun bans work well for tyrants. They worked well for einstein, Stalin and Chairman Mao, to name just three."

Sounds legit.
Aha!

So it was Einstein all along..

The forums have a chat filter that replaces AD0LF H1TLER (without the numbers of course) with albert einstein.
Makes people look really dumb if it goes unchecked.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Osiris on December 27, 2012, 03:33:04 pm
"We've seen what happens when the bad guys have guns in places where guns are banned." <---- a lot less random school massacres and mass killings? Its like you people believe that without guns your going to be killed or something :P I live in the UK and ive never seen a gun in my life. (cept air rifles etc) I do not fear gun toting robbers and criminals when i walk the streets and i don't think i need a gun to feel safe O.o


"In Australia, after a 1996 ban on all automatic and semiautomatic weapons — a real ban, not like the one we enacted in 1994 with 600-plus exceptions — gun-related homicides dropped 59 percent over the next decade. The rate of suicide by firearm plummeted 65 percent. (Almost 20,000 Americans die each year using guns to commit suicide — a method that is much more successful than other forms of suicide.)"
Linkey
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Christo on December 27, 2012, 08:25:47 pm
The forums have a chat filter that replaces AD0LF H1TLER (without the numbers of course) with albert einstein.
Makes people look really dumb if it goes unchecked.

That's the joke.  :)
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Rumblood on December 27, 2012, 09:29:55 pm
Violent crimes in the U.K.

1,977,000 in a country of 61,000,000 (2012 latest data)

3240 per 100,000

Violent crimes in the U.S.

1,318,000 in a country of 311,000,000. (2009 latest available data)

423 per 100,000

While homicide rates are higher in the U.S (4.2 per 100,000 vs 1.2 per 100,000 in the U.K), you have a much higher incidence of violence. So while you are 3.5 times more likely to be killed in the U.S. during a violent crime, you are 7.5 times more likely to be a victim of a violent crime in the U.K. in the first place. In the U.S., some of those deaths are the criminals themselves being shot by homeowners and business owners.

You really don't have a clear cut pedestal to stand on you know. Even the France/Australian example is misleading (as the author knew, 30x homicides works out to 6x when population differences are included). While homicides may have dropped by about half in Australia after 1996, total assaults doubled in that same time frame.

(All statistics above compiled by those countries governments)

With the said, we can all take this little ditty to heart.

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Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Molly on December 27, 2012, 11:53:08 pm
I rather get beaten up 4 times than shot even once...
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Overdriven on December 27, 2012, 11:56:35 pm
Violent crimes in the U.K.

1,977,000 in a country of 61,000,000 (2012 latest data)

3240 per 100,000

Violent crimes in the U.S.

1,318,000 in a country of 311,000,000. (2009 latest available data)

423 per 100,000

While homicide rates are higher in the U.S (4.2 per 100,000 vs 1.2 per 100,000 in the U.K), you have a much higher incidence of violence. So while you are 3.5 times more likely to be killed in the U.S. during a violent crime, you are 7.5 times more likely to be a victim of a violent crime in the U.K. in the first place. In the U.S., some of those deaths are the criminals themselves being shot by homeowners and business owners.

You really don't have a clear cut pedestal to stand on you know. Even the France/Australian example is misleading (as the author knew, 30x homicides works out to 6x when population differences are included). While homicides may have dropped by about half in Australia after 1996, total assaults doubled in that same time frame.

(All statistics above compiled by those countries governments)

With the said, we can all take this little ditty to heart.

Most of that probably encompasses the drunken football fans beating each other up twice a week at pubs.

Regardless, as benkei pointed out, I'd much rather get beaten up frequently than be shot/killed so meh. Those stats mean little to me as to me it's the homicide that counts.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: isatis on December 28, 2012, 01:27:46 am
Violent crimes in the U.K.

1,977,000 in a country of 61,000,000 (2012 latest data)

3240 per 100,000

Violent crimes in the U.S.

1,318,000 in a country of 311,000,000. (2009 latest available data)

423 per 100,000

While homicide rates are higher in the U.S (4.2 per 100,000 vs 1.2 per 100,000 in the U.K), you have a much higher incidence of violence. So while you are 3.5 times more likely to be killed in the U.S. during a violent crime, you are 7.5 times more likely to be a victim of a violent crime in the U.K. in the first place. In the U.S., some of those deaths are the criminals themselves being shot by homeowners and business owners.



If I recall right, those number can't be compared because USA definition of ''violent'' crime only consist of aggravated assault (Canada, which has pretty much the criminal code of UK, include much morel ittle assault like those with no wep and with no major injury, bar fight per exemple)

Personnaly i find it rather strange to walk in USa and see that much people with gun... I don't understand this mentality at all! But maybe it's my little nordic super security socialist Quebec that biaise me. And even if i open up all my mind to go in the mentality of super dangerous country I still don't understand why army gun are allowed to be sold...

Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Rumblood on December 28, 2012, 02:02:22 am
Regardless, as benkei pointed out, I'd much rather get beaten up frequently than be shot/killed so meh. Those stats mean little to me as to me it's the homicide that counts.

3.2% versus .42%% chance of being a victim? Or .0042% vs .0012% of being shot. I'd skip that 3.2% right over. Especially when I would be infinitely more likely to have a gun as a law abiding citizen for that .42% chance of violence as opposed to 0% chance as a law abiding citizen where guns are banned. Those 4.2 per 100,000 in the U.S. include the criminals being shot, yours don't.


Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Grumbs on December 28, 2012, 03:56:09 am
This was pretty cringworthy to watch. When all you can do is insult rather than debate you all ready lost really, and the other guy took it quite well. Saying that though I would much rather live in a country like UK with strict gun control laws, but its different in the US. You have to consider the situation as it is now rather than like you can wave a wand and revert 100's of years of laws and ingrained culture. Ridiculous to think you can have teachers carrying guns though, any other guy than Piers Morgan probably could have handled that way better and came out on top given the ideas the other guy came up with. Kids would have even more reason to stash guns in school, or you would have instances were kids get shot by teachers, or teachers using guns as a threat or to act like police rather than teachers, and then you would get inevitable accidents caused by kids getting hold of the guns.

Its a shitty situation really. You would have to go pretty hardcore towards gun control for it to make a dent and actually help the situation, otherwise it might just put innocent people at more risk. I'd hate to live in a place were there are guns everywhere, but if I did i'd want access to one too. In terms of schools, I don't think its worth the extra risks by arming teachers. Main way to deter shootings in schools is to not sensationalise it and to not make celebrities out of the murderers. Educating people about proper storage of guns might help, and maybe some limit on the type of weapons freely sold or the ammo types
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Rumblood on December 28, 2012, 08:03:01 am
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/12/27/armed-teachers-guards-key-to-school-security-in-israel/ (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/12/27/armed-teachers-guards-key-to-school-security-in-israel/)

Quote
In order to station armed guards in U.S. schools, an idea advocated by the National Rifle Association, America could tap a ready pool of qualified candidates, Shemtov said. U.S. soldiers returning from overseas are well suited for school protection, he said, and “instead of returning with nothing to do there’s a sea of work” as school guards.

“They’re the elite of the American people,” Shemtov said. “You have people obligated, morally and ethically to the state, to the flag - this is a soldier. It’s a person who went out to do this. All you have to do is give him the appropriate training to do this in the private sector....This is the best of the American people, like they’re the best of the Israeli people. They’re people who took it upon themselves to help others.”
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Christo on December 28, 2012, 08:05:20 am
Personnaly i find it rather strange to walk in USa and see that much people with gun... I don't understand this mentality at all! But maybe it's my little nordic super security socialist Quebec that biaise me. And even if i open up all my mind to go in the mentality of super dangerous country I still don't understand why army gun are allowed to be sold...

Look at Switzerland, they do this right.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Kafein on December 28, 2012, 12:25:58 pm
I'm not a pro-gun guy that much but isn't making weapons things like molotov cocktails very easy anyway ? It seems mass murderers go for the easiest path though.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Molly on December 28, 2012, 12:31:27 pm
Making said Cocktail is way trickier than you might think. And handling those is madly dangerous.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Overdriven on December 30, 2012, 12:45:24 pm
In today's Daily Mail By Piers Morgan:

Quote
Deport me? If America won't change its crazy gun laws... I may deport myself says PIERS MORGAN

By Piers Morgan

PUBLISHED: 00:26, 30 December 2012 | UPDATED: 11:25, 30 December 2012


I have fired guns only once in my life, on a stag party to the Czech capital Prague a few years ago when part of the itinerary included a trip to an indoor shooting range. For three hours, our group were let loose on everything from Magnum 45 handguns and Glock pistols, to high-powered  ‘sniper’ rifles and pump-action shotguns.

It was controlled, legal, safe and undeniably exciting. But it also showed me, quite demonstrably, that guns are killing machines.

Rarely has the hideous effect of a gun been more acutely laid bare than at Sandy Hook elementary school in Newtown, Connecticut, two weeks ago – when a deranged young man called Adam Lanza murdered 20 schoolchildren aged six and seven, as well as six adults, in a sickening rampage.

The Sandy Hook massacre brought back such horribly vivid memories for me of Dunblane, the worst mass shooting in Britain in my lifetime.

I was editor of the Daily Mirror on that day back in 1996 and will never forget the appalling TV footage of those poor Scottish mothers sprinting to the small primary school, many already howling with anguish at the thought of what might have happened to their five-year-old children.

It was a slaughter so senseless, so unspeakable, that it reduced even hard-bitten news reporters, including me, to tears.

And as I watched the parents at Sandy Hook racing to try to find their children, I saw the same images, the same terror, that engulfed Dunblane. And I felt the same tears welling up.

Then, 16 five-year-old children were slain in their classroom. Now, 20  six- and seven-year-olds. Beautiful young lives snuffed out before they had a chance to fulfil any of their potential. It made me so gut-wrenchingly angry.

I have four children. And I still remember the blind terror I felt when I lost my son Stanley, then aged two, for half an hour at a cricket match on a field surrounded by a small running creek. I was sure he’d drowned. But I was lucky: he finally emerged from where he’d been hiding – big, cheeky grin intact.

Every parent has a similar story. To even try to conceive of how you would feel if your child was shot multiple times in the head by a Rambo madman at school is just impossible. I honestly don’t know how you would ever carry on with life.

But my anger turned to blind rage when I saw the reaction to this hideous massacre in America.

Sales of the specific weapon used, an AR-15 military-style assault rifle, rocketed at gun stores all over America in the days following the Sandy Hook shooting.

And the country’s biggest gun supplier, Brownells, said it sold more high-capacity bullet magazines in three days than it normally did in three-and-a-half years.

What is behind this apparently insane behaviour? The answer is, mainly, fear.

The well-organised, richly funded, vociferous pro-gun lobby were straight out, on my CNN show and many other media outlets, declaring that the only way those schoolchildren would have survived is if their teachers had been armed. It’s been their answer to every mass shooting.

After the shootings at a cinema in Aurora, Colorado, in July – where 70 people were hit, the worst victim-count in such an incident in US history, and 12 people died – sales of guns in the state rose by a staggering 41 per cent in the following month as people bought into the theory that if everyone in the theatre had been armed too, they’d have stopped the shooter. Can you imagine the scene as 200 people pulled out guns and started blazing away in a dark theatre?

The gun-lobby logic dictates that the only way to defend against gun criminals is for everyone else to have a  gun, too. Teachers, nurses, clergymen, shop assistants, cinema usherettes – everyone must be armed.

To me, this is a warped, twisted logic that bears no statistical analysis and makes no sense. Do you fight drug addiction with more cocaine? Alcoholism with more Jack Daniel’s? Of course not.

But woe betide anyone who dares suggest this. In the days following Sandy Hook, I interviewed a number of gun-rights representatives and grew increasingly furious as they  trotted out these hackneyed old  disingenuous lines.

Finally, I erupted at one of them, a man with the unfortunate name of Larry Pratt, who runs the Gun Owners of America lobbying group.

‘You,’ I eventually declared, ‘are an unbelievably stupid man.’

And that was the catalyst for the full wrath of the gun lobby to crash down on my British head.

A petition was created on an official White House website demanding my deportation for ‘attacking the 2nd Amendment of the Constitution’. This, of course, is the one that alludes to an American’s ‘right to bear arms’.

The concerted effort to get me thrown out of the country – which has so far gathered more than 90,000 signatures – struck me as rather ironic, given that by expressing my opinion I was merely exercising my rights, as a legal US resident, under the 1st Amendment, which protects free speech.

But no matter.

This gun debate is an ongoing war of verbal attrition in America – and I’m just the latest target, the advantage to the gun lobbyists being that I’m British, a breed of human being who burned down the White House in 1814 and had to be forcefully deported en masse, as no American will ever be allowed to forget – Special Relationship notwithstanding.

It’s no exaggeration to say that America’s unique fondness for guns pretty much got cemented by hatred of us Brits and the War of Independence. But the main reason the more fervent gun-rights activists give is a fear of their own US federal government using its army to impinge on their freedom. The problem is that America’s historical love of guns means the country is now awash with them – and with gun death.

The bare statistics say it all. There are 311 million people in the United States and an estimated 300 million guns in circulation. (Between four million and seven million new firearms are manufactured in the US every year.)

Take out children from the population figure, and that’s comfortably more than one gun per person.

Each year, on average, 100,000 Americans are shot with a gun. Of these, over 31,000 are fatalities, 11,000 of them murders and 18,000 suicides. More than a million people have been killed with guns in America since 1968 when Dr Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy were assassinated.

The US firearm murder rate is 19.5 times higher than the 22 next most populous, high-income countries in the world. And a staggering 80 per cent of firearm deaths in the combined 23 countries occur in America.

My campaign against America’s gun laws didn’t begin two weeks ago when Adam Lanza committed his carnage. It began a week before I went on air for CNN, in January 2011. A US Congresswoman called Gabby Giffords was shot in the head by another deranged young man at an outdoor event in Tucson, Arizona, and miraculously survived. Six others, including a nine-year-old girl, were murdered.

It was a horrifying incident but, to my astonishment, nothing happened as a result. A week or so of debate and furrowed brows, and everyone went on with life.

Since then, I’ve watched in despair as the volume of gun-related massacres has escalated. (Six of America’s 12 worst-ever mass shootings have occurred since 2007, when I first came to America to work as a judge on America’s Got Talent.) And I’ve been shocked at how America’s politicians have been cowed into a woeful, shameful virtual silence by the gun lobbyists and the all-powerful National Rifle Association in particular.

The NRA targets pro-gun-control politicians on every rung of the political system and spends a fortune ensuring they either don’t get elected or get unelected. It’s been a concerted, ruthless and highly successful campaign. And to those, like me, who stand up to them, they sneer: ‘You don’t know anything about guns. Keep quiet.’

Well, I do know a bit about guns, actually. My brother’s a lieutenant colonel in the British Army and has served tours of duty in Northern Ireland, the Balkans, Iraq and Afghanistan. My sister married a colonel who trained Princes William and Harry at Sandhurst. My uncle was a major in the Green Howards.

My argument with guns is not based on some universal, pathological hatred of them. I’m not a pacifist. Guns win necessary wars and defeat tyrannical regimes like the chocolate chip cookies.

Nor do I have a problem with those who use guns for hunting or for sport. I also understand, and respect, how there is an inherent national belief in America, based on their understanding of the 2nd Amendment, that everyone should be allowed to have a gun at home for the purposes of self-defence.

But where I have a big problem is when the unfortunately ambiguous wording of the 2nd Amendment is twisted to mean that anyone in America can have any firearm they want, however powerful, and in whatever quantity they want.

This has led to the absurd scenario where I can’t legally buy six packets of Sudafed in an American supermarket, or a chocolate Kinder egg, or various French cheeses, because they are all deemed a health risk.

Yet I can saunter into Walmart – America’s version of Tesco – and help myself to an armful of AR-15 assault rifles and magazines that can carry up to 100 bullets at a time.

That weapon has now been used in the last four mass shootings in America – at the Aurora cinema, a shopping mall in Oregon, Sandy Hook school, and the most recent, a dreadful attack on firemen in New York.

The AR-15 looks and behaves like a military weapon and should be confined to the military and police force. No member of the public has any need for a death machine that can fire up to six rounds a second when modified and can clear a 100-bullet magazine (as used in Aurora) within a minute.

The only apparent reason anyone seems to offer up is that using such weapons is ‘fun’. One gun-rights guy I interviewed last week even said admiringly that the AR-15 was ‘the Ferrari of guns’.

Well, I’m sorry, but ‘fun’ is just not a good enough excuse any more. Not when children are being killed by gunfire all over America.

President Obama seems to agree it’s time for action. After four years of doing precisely nothing about  gun control in America, he finally snapped after Sandy Hook and said he’s keen to pursue a ban on assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. And he wants a closure of the absurd loopholes that mean 40 per cent of all gun sales in America currently have no background checks whatsoever – meaning any crackpot or criminal can get their hands on whatever they want.

These measures, which will be resisted every step of the way, won’t stop all gun crime. Nor all mass shootings. There are too many guns out there, and too many criminals and mentally deranged people keen to use them. But the measures will at least make a start. And they will signal an intent to tackle this deadly scourge on American life.

Obama should follow up by launching a Government buy-back for all existing assault weapons in circulation (as worked successfully in Los Angeles last week). I would go further, confiscating the rest and enforcing tough prison sentences on those who still insist on keeping one.

Either you ban these assault weapons completely, and really mean it, or you don’t.

He should also significantly increase federal funding for mental health treatment for all Americans who need it. It’s the lethal cocktail of mental instability and ready gun availability that is the key component in almost every American mass shooting.

Nor do I think Hollywood or makers of violent video games should avoid any responsibility – their graphic images can surely only twist an already twisted mind.

I will not stop in my own efforts to keep the gun-control debate firmly in people’s minds, however much abuse I’m subjected to.

And let me say that for every American who has attacked me on Twitter, Facebook or Fox News this past week, I’ve had many more thank me and encourage me to continue speaking out – including one lady who came up to me in Manhattan just before Christmas, grabbed my arm, and said firmly: ‘I’m with you. A lot of us are with you.’

I genuinely think Sandy Hook will act as a tipping point. A Gallup poll released on Thursday showed that  58 per cent of Americans now support new gun-control laws, up from 43 per cent in 2011. That’s a big jump.

President Obama wept as he spoke of the mindless shooting. He seems to agree it's time for action over gun control
The ‘more guns, less crime’ argument is utter nonsense. Britain, after Dunblane, introduced some of the toughest gun laws in Europe, and we average just 35 gun murders a year.

Japan, which has the toughest gun control in the world, had just TWO in 2006 and averages fewer than 20 a year. In Australia, they’ve not had a mass shooting since stringent new laws were brought in after 35 people were murdered in the country’s worst-ever mass shooting in Tasmania in 1996. Fewer guns equals less gun murder. This is not a ‘pinko liberal’ hypothesis. It’s a simple fact.

In conclusion, I can spare those Americans who want me deported a lot of effort by saying this: If you don’t change your gun laws to at least try to stop this relentless tidal wave of murderous carnage, then you don’t have to worry about deporting me.

Although I love the country as a second home and one that has treated me incredibly well, I would, as a concerned parent first – and latterly, of a one-year-old daughter who may attend an American elementary school like Sandy Hook in three years’ time – seriously consider deporting myself.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 30, 2012, 01:21:51 pm
OMG Piers Morgan wants to leave! That's so tragic! Let's make some gun restrictions so Piers Morgan will want to stay with us 'cause we don't hate his guts at all!
Hopefully he'll be Britains problem soon.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Overdriven on December 30, 2012, 02:00:00 pm
OMG Piers Morgan wants to leave! That's so tragic! Let's make some gun restrictions so Piers Morgan will want to stay with us 'cause we don't hate his guts at all!
Hopefully he'll be Britains problem soon.

He was our problem for a long time. Then he realised everyone hates his guts, received a hefty pay check for being a judge, upped and left. You guys can keep him  :P

He makes one good point here mind you:

Quote
A petition was created on an official White House website demanding my deportation for ‘attacking the 2nd Amendment of the Constitution’. This, of course, is the one that alludes to an American’s ‘right to bear arms’.

The concerted effort to get me thrown out of the country – which has so far gathered more than 90,000 signatures – struck me as rather ironic, given that by expressing my opinion I was merely exercising my rights, as a legal US resident, under the 1st Amendment, which protects free speech.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 30, 2012, 02:48:59 pm
He was our problem for a long time. Then he realised everyone hates his guts, received a hefty pay check for being a judge, upped and left. You guys can keep him  :P

He makes one good point here mind you:
I agree with him there, and while I don't believe we have a right to throw him out (and therefore wouldn't sign said petition) then fuck it, I'm tired of that prick and I just want him to get the fuck out.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Kafein on December 30, 2012, 03:35:01 pm
"My argument with guns is not based on some universal, pathological hatred of them. I’m not a pacifist. Guns win necessary wars and defeat tyrannical regimes like the chocolate chip cookies."

Erm.


Or forum is a Godwin's Law detector.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Vaynes on December 30, 2012, 10:44:38 pm
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Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: [ptx] on December 31, 2012, 02:03:54 pm
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What a dumb broad, lol.
Tells a long story, which is sad, then makes the completely wrong conclusion.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Kafein on December 31, 2012, 03:42:39 pm
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Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Vaynes on December 31, 2012, 06:20:09 pm
No she is right. The second amendment is there so if the US government were to ever turn the military against the people and try to use deadly force to do what they want us to do that we would be able to resist. there is a long history of countries who start killing it's own people for resisting the governments rule. granted the population doesn't have missiles and thanks and jets and what not but we do have plenty of guns and plenty of people who have them. it discourages the government in engaging in such a conflict because the price would be simply too high with so many able to fight back
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Overdriven on December 31, 2012, 06:29:25 pm
Lol no. Afraid in the modern age that is definitely not a good reason to walk around with a gun or even own one. That amendment is clearly one written in haste out of 'zomg we beat the British with our own shitty muskets', hence the use of the term militia, without any knowledge of what it would entail in the future. Put simply it's out of date and sorely needs changing and has no place in the modern world.

Which led to the arguments over the term militia apparently and somehow they managed to skew it so that militia becomes a term to encompass everybody who could potentially be enrolled into the military, not what I would generally think the term meant as citizens who are enrolled for military service for use in emergencies (much like the territorial army is seen in the UK).

It's one of those strange things I think that American's see their constitution as near untouchable in law despite the fact it was written 200 years ago in a different time that in no way reflects our world. Just that attitude of insisting the constitution says they can own firearms so it must be so. Ok...200 years ago that made sense as much of the US was frontier territory and firearms would have had many practical uses in every day survival as well as for militia, which also had a more practical role at the time. But things have changed rather a lot in 200 years and as a result these things can simply become silly. There's a reason why the UK simply made a law which effectively states that any of the ridiculous laws from several hundred years ago can't be used in a court of law. Because they are stupid. There's a famous one where an English person is allowed to kill a Welsh person in cold blood at midnight in a grave yard. In the modern world that would make 0 sense and I view the right to bear arms as exactly the same.

Edit: I got it wrong apparently it's this - In Hereford you can shoot a Welsh person on a Sunday, with a longbow, in the Cathedral Close.

A personal favourite: It is illegal for any commoner's pet to have carnal knowledge of an animal belonging to the monarch.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Rumblood on December 31, 2012, 07:47:38 pm
Blah blah blah

You aren't an American. It shows. The Constitution is a living document. That is why there are 27 amendments that both include specific rights not included in the original document, and repeals or abolishes previously accepted rights or limitations (i.e. abolished slavery, established and repealed the prohibition of alcohol). 12 of those were established in the 20th century.

You are quite welcome to express your opinion, but don't fool yourself into thinking you know what you are talking about when it comes to America and our Constitution or its people, anymore than I will understand what it is really like over there in that place I see as a fractious, nationalistic, prejudicial hot mess that is called Europe. We have our dirt, but we like our dirt a hell of a lot better than we like your mud.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Overdriven on December 31, 2012, 08:07:33 pm
You aren't an American. It shows. The Constitution is a living document. That is why there are 27 amendments that both include specific rights not included in the original document, and repeals or abolishes previously accepted rights or limitations (i.e. abolished slavery, established and repealed the prohibition of alcohol). 12 of those were established in the 20th century.

Well not helped by the fact that barely any American's I have met seem to know what their constitution is either, they simply take it as absolute truth. It just comes across as a very daft way of doing things I.E. following an 'ancient', by modern standards, document. You're right though that I know very little about it but that is simply what I've gotten as an impression.

that place I see as a fractious, nationalistic, prejudicial hot mess that is called EuropeUSA. We have our dirt, but we like our dirt a hell of a lot better than we like your mud.

Works both ways.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: cmp on December 31, 2012, 10:17:34 pm
You aren't an American. It shows. The Constitution is a living document. That is why there are 27 amendments that both include specific rights not included in the original document, and repeals or abolishes previously accepted rights or limitations (i.e. abolished slavery, established and repealed the prohibition of alcohol). 12 of those were established in the 20th century.

You are quite welcome to express your opinion, but don't fool yourself into thinking you know what you are talking about when it comes to America and our Constitution or its people, anymore than I will understand what it is really like over there in that place I see as a fractious, nationalistic, prejudicial hot mess that is called Europe. We have our dirt, but we like our dirt a hell of a lot better than we like your mud.

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Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Rumblood on January 01, 2013, 09:27:19 am
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Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Paul on January 01, 2013, 11:41:06 am
"You are not American. Your opinion doesn't matter."

That NA prison informers always make me smile with their silly delusions and attitude.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Molly on January 01, 2013, 12:08:04 pm
From my experience and the few run-ins I had with Americans, this pic is more fitting (a classic):

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Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Kafein on January 01, 2013, 02:54:58 pm
I would argue that the US is way more nationalistic than Europe, we here have been able to cooperate and share a part of our national sovereignties with other countries. Also, the results of nationalism are much more present in the latent culture here, considering how great the 20th century was.

Finally, in the US you still hear people speaking total nonsense like "we are the land of the good and prosperity and peace and truth etc. we must spread democracy and kill the bad guys", and these people seem to still be listened to. What the fuck. What happened to putting oneself in perspective ?

For now on, this shall be a EU vs NA thread
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Molly on January 01, 2013, 04:37:12 pm
[...]
For now on, this shall be a EU vs NA thread
It has been from the very beginning.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Materia on January 01, 2013, 05:08:29 pm
As long as USA is such a garbage country (white, black, asian, latin, indian [from the india], christian, jew etc., all mixed up) it will always have problems.



Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Rumblood on January 01, 2013, 07:24:12 pm
"You are not American. Your opinion doesn't matter."

That NA prison informers always make me smile with their silly delusions and attitude.

Don't be a bitch Paul. I told him he didn't know what he was talking about when it comes to our Constitution or our people and while he is WELCOME to express his opinion, he will never understand our country or its people anymore than I will understand yours.

You only hear what your prejudice wants you to hear  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Leesin on January 01, 2013, 07:37:25 pm
As long as USA is such a garbage country (white, black, asian, latin, indian [from the india], christian, jew etc., all mixed up) it will always have problems.

You remind me of that guy that started WW2.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Paul on January 01, 2013, 07:50:04 pm
No, your prejudice tells you that I haven't read the amendments. I did and some 2ndary stuff about it too and I still think how they are handled in the US is silly.

It prolly boils down to a similar thing we have in Germany. We got no general speed limit on the autobahn. Everyone knows it would make a lot sense to have one. Everyone in  the other countries thinks that common sense would dictate to have one. For several reasons. But we got a strong car lobby here and for them it is a piece of freedom to drive as fast as you want even if you can only do it on a Sunday morning. Driving fast is fun. Owning fast cars is fun.

Owning guns is fun. Shooting guns is fun. That's the thing in the US. A piece of freedom. You don't need a semiautomatic version of an infantry rifle with a 30 round magazine for hunting. Nor self defense unless you are up against wasteland raiders. That the whole militia thing is out of date is obvious. You can't beat those drones. You can't win wars with rifles anymore. For that you need air planes, tanks, artillery or people who are willing to blow themselves up for a greater "good".  You ain't got that. You only got guys who like guns.

Sorry for the American style of argumentation.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on January 01, 2013, 07:53:41 pm
Why is American's solution to everything always "MUST HAVE MORE GUNS TO PEW PEW DA BADGUYZ." Personally I don't give a rat's ass about MERCA and its law or crime rates, if they want to kill each other that's fine by me as long as you all hurry up.

On a serious note though yes guns can protect people and save lives but as we all know they often take them away rather then save. I don't care who thinks America should or shouldn't have more guns but in my opinion guns should not be allowed in schools end of discussion how do you know the teacher won't end up going on a mass killing rampage?  Overall though I don't care American's have been killing American's for years along with "da bad guyz" that is basically everyone NOT from MERCA so meh.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Overdriven on January 01, 2013, 07:59:53 pm
but in my opinion guns should not be allowed in schools end of discussion how do you know the teacher won't end up going on a mass killing rampage?

Actually a very good point that I missed. I've known plenty of teachers to have mental breakdowns in the middle of a class room and quit their job on the spot. That could be a very volatile mixture.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Rumblood on January 01, 2013, 08:13:36 pm
No, your prejudice tells you that I haven't read the amendments. I did and some 2ndary stuff about it too and I still think how they are handled in the US is silly.

Again, reading what you want to hear. I have expressed more than enough opinion without you needing to make things up to criticize. I never said you would never READ the document. I said you would never understand our viewpoint as we will never understand yours.

Perfect example:

The "N" word. You have yours, we have ours. Many Euro's don't get why we work to stomp out the use of friend. In the same way we don't get why you've worked so hard to stomp out the not zee word so much that you've even had the forum change the word to chocolate chip cookie. Yet friend is still there instead of changed to "bookshelves" or " citizen" or something.

Clear cultural difference.

You aren't arguing like an American, you are arguing like a politician anywhere.  
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Paul on January 01, 2013, 08:23:05 pm
In no other forum that I know the word nazi is actually censored while nigger is almost always blocked. The censorship is random here, depending on the current mood of chadz or cmp and is mostly meant as a joke. I might be mistaken but I thought the N word has been censored before but maybe I'm wrong. Some former censored stuff has been removed for some reason when the cookie and puppy stuff appeared. Personally I find the removal of the P word(polestun) censor disgusting.
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Rumblood on January 01, 2013, 08:28:13 pm
In no other forum that I know the word nazi is actually censored while nigger is almost always blocked. The censorship is random here, depending on the current mood of chadz or cmp and is mostly meant as a joke. I might be mistaken but I thought the N word has been censored before but maybe I'm wrong. Some former censored stuff has been removed for some reason when the cookie and puppy stuff appeared. Personally I find the removal of the P word(polestun) censor disgusting.

 :wink:
Title: Re: Us gun-debate: "youre an unbelievably stupid man arent you"
Post by: Kafein on January 01, 2013, 08:43:39 pm
Yet friend is still there instead of changed to "bookshelves" or " citizen" or something.


Do. It. Bookshelves.

I liked the At fifteen, I had the will to  learn ; at thirty, I could stand ; at forty, I had no  doubts ; at fifty, I understood the heavenly Bidding ;  at sixty, my ears were opened ; at seventy, I could  do as my heart lusted without trespassing from the  square. censor


WHAT IS THIS I DON'T EVEN