cRPG
Strategus => Strategus General Discussion => Topic started by: Haboe on December 19, 2012, 10:30:53 pm
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Dear strat community.
Some of you already know, I'm working on getting the rules of strategus clear at last.
Ill be going over the rules 1 by 1, I will explain each possible exploit, give some options on what the rules might be, and let you vote on it.
In the end i will have a set of rules here, chadz will take a look at these rules and decide if they will become the official strategus rules.
Here the current list of exploitables i want rules for:
Use of siege equipment:
1) Ladders
1.1) Floating ladders. You are not allowed to stay on floating ladders. If for some reason your ladder becomes floating, you are to get off it, even if it means suicide.
1.2) Ladderplacement. For now there are no rules on unrealistic ladders, so they are allowed. (as long as you keep the other rules in mind)
1.3) Siege-equipment on ladders is not allowed. This includes using siege shields and everything you can make with a construction-site.
1.4) Ladders in open battles (anti cav) are allowed as long as the ladder is legit according to rule 1.2.
1.5) Cavalry is allowed to use ladders.
2) Forward spawn
2.1) Spawning at enemy forward spawn is allowed. This means you are allowed to set your spawn at any forward spawn on the map, no matter who build it.
3) Siege towers
3.1) Using ladders from siegetowers is allowed.
3.1.1 Using skyladders that are the result of a moved siegetower is not allowed.
3.2) Using siege shields on siegetowers is allowed
4) Covering flags
4.1) covering flags with any equipment is not allowed. This includes ladders, siege shields, construction sites and anything you can produce with a construction site.
Battle/ siege
1) Prolonging a battle
1.1) End battle, common sense rule. Feel free to troll around when the battle is over, but don't extend it too long, crpg no delaying rules applies here.
1.2) If you are out of siege equipment, and no longer have any way of getting into the castle or town, you have to retreat.
2) Spawnraping
2.1) Spawnraping the enemy is allowed. It's your teams responsibility to defend your flags, if you lose controle over an area you might get spawnkilled.
Strat map
1) CMP's rules for not attacking your village to delay your enemy
2) Multiaccounting. It is not allowed to own and use multiple more then 1 account on strategus.
3) Accountsharing. It is not allowed to log into other players accounts.
4) Tools
5) Night time. Night time is different for each player, therefore there are no rules to the usage of nighttime.
6) Itembombing a fief. Dropping a lot of items in an enemy fief is not allowed. It causes incredibly long equipment lists for the fief.
Red = still working on the rule
Orange = currently a topic or poll is running about this
Green = finished rule
How to enforce the rules?
I'm having trouble coming up with more options to enforce those rules.
The only 2 i came up with so far are:
* Stratmins (extra admins that only get the EU3 and NA3 pw)
* Make the community responsible for reporting broken rules by screenshots. (and ofc the admins we already have)
More possible exploits will be added as i think of more, if you have things you find unmissable in this list, PM me or post it here.
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reserved!
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+1 for initiative in right direction.
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I support the idea of getting some rules set in stone, however I'd suggest letting people post suggestions for the rules in regards to the "issues" for some a few days before you start the poll in the topic and then including every suggestion in the upcoming polls.
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Well i try to add every potential outcome of the rule into the poll, if i miss something i can add it to the poll later, or start a new poll.
Lets see what the outcome of the first poll is, if i indeed miss things i might take your approach zlisch.
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Well i try to add every potential outcome of the rule into the poll, if i miss something i can add it to the poll later, or start a new poll.
Lets see what the outcome of the first poll is, if i indeed miss things i might take your approach zlisch.
Well adding things later would be bad, as now a days you can't remove your old votes from polls, and people might end up voting for something they regret, a few days will also allow some discussion on the matter, and while discussion mostly is just mercs, a tiny amount of randommers, and a few other people from eastern talking shit about uif and uif and a few random none-uif (like me) talking shit about eastern then most discussion will have a few valid points and it might convince people that voting for something else would be better.
EDIT:
One more thing, why are some rules green already? If it's because the devs personally stated that rule earlier then why isn't spawning at the enemies forward spawn also green?
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In that case if a really valid poll options comes to light in the discussion i will restart the poll with that option added.
I don't want to discuss all options for each rule, since some are rather easy to make (for example, siege shields on ladders, yes or no?)
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I agree that these need to get addressed. "Use common sense" is not a good rule since we are all idiots for playing this horrible game.
I don't think they've been abused as much in NA battles, but preventative measures are good.
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You are approaching from the wrong direction. It is irrelevant what rules you pick if you don't have a clear method of enforcing them.
Things to consider
1) If you can't prove someone broke a rule then it shouldn't be a rule.
2) If it requires an Admin's immediate action then it shouldn't be a rule.
3) Any punishment handed out must be a real deterrent.
So here's my list
Rule #1: Ladders may only be used if BOTH ends of the ladder are attached to solid ground or a castle structure. Any ladder created that fails to meet this criteria, or ladder then later fails to meet it due to destroyed walls, should be destroyed immediately and NOT used at all by either team. This means ladders to and from siege towers are not allowed.
Rule #2: No using enemy forward spawns. Although I would prefer coding so that an enemy setting themselves on a forward spawn will wipe all previous spawn settings so that it is actually a method of capturing spawns.
Rule #3: No camping locations that are only reachable by ladder, once all your flags are down.
Rule #4: No construction sites or ladders to be placed within 1m of a spawn flag. Building a siege tower elsewhere and driving it over a flag is allowed, since by default the tower can be driven off the flag too. Rule deleted as how would you prove which team actually placed a CS on a flag - use of siege equip to block flags should therefore be allowed but remember attackers can block flags being put back up as well so it works both ways.
To report an incident. ONE person should post screenshots, proving the offense happened. Posting multiple times or commenting on an existing post is also against the rules. All posts should be made in a single reporting thread and an admin will assess each report and make a decision, editing the decision into the post accordingly.
Punishment is the same for all offenses including report spamming/whining. 24 hour Strat ban for the army leader on the strat map AND any rank 10 faction members involved in the battle. It is the responsibility of faction commanders to ensure their members and mercs obey the rules.
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Rule #2: No using enemy forward spawns. Although I would prefer coding so that an enemy setting themselves on a forward spawn will wipe all previous spawn settings so that it is actually a method of capturing spawns.
ALready said by chadz that doing this is fine. (http://forum.meleegaming.com/strategus-general-discussion/ridicules/msg678729/#msg678729) It's a smart way to destroy enemy spawn by using it against them. At same instance, if you capture the enemy forward spawn, rather than destroying it, if you make your team spawn there, it becomes "Yours" over the enemies.
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I think caping enemy spawn is FUN and it should be allowed, its the moment that either side can turn the tables and forces the teams to play more carefully.
Tomas : that cs on flag rule can be abused so badly. So you guys thing that its ok to capture all the spawns, put the flags down, and fail to put the last flag down due to CS on it then die at the last spawn of the enemy so they can already put their flags up since its closer to them and I have to walk all the way again.
Its better to remove the spawns if thats the case, its pretty stupid sorry.
To report an incident. ONE person should post screenshots, proving the offense happened. Posting multiple times or commenting on an existing post is also against the rules. All posts should be made in a single reporting thread and an admin will assess each report and make a decision, editing the decision into the post accordingly.
and what will be the consequences? if we don't know who did it nothing will happen? There must be some clear punishment for that.
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B...But I like being able to ride my horse up ladders.
It's the only way to get over a castle wall that's been broken by a catapult. Allows for fun suicide cav charges!
Or, an alternative should be provided, like a ramp. Ramp's are fun.
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B...But I like being able to ride my horse up ladders.
It's the only way to get over a castle wall that's been broken by a catapult. Allows for fun suicide cav charges!
Or, an alternative should be provided, like a ramp. Ramp's are fun.
It will be a vote on whether or not it will be allowed, my guess is that most ppl are fine with horses on ladders, which will be shown by the poll results ^^
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I think caping enemy spawn is FUN and it should be allowed, its the moment that either side can turn the tables and forces the teams to play more carefully.
As I said i'd prefer a coding change so that capping was more tactical instead of simply annoying. If I cap an enemy forward spawn, it should prevent my enemies spawning there making it a proper capture.
Tomas : that cs on flag rule can be abused so badly. So you guys thing that its ok to capture all the spawns, put the flags down, and fail to put the last flag down due to CS on it then die at the last spawn of the enemy so they can already put their flags up since its closer to them and I have to walk all the way again.
How do you prove who put the cs down? You can't have admins constantly watching every fight and once a CS is on top of a my old friend you have no way to see if the flag is up or down or check who put it there. In fact it would be pretty easy to frame someone and with the harsh punishments suggested then that can't be allowed. Unless you can come up with a way to prove consistently who put a site down then it is an unenforceable rule.
and what will be the consequences? if we don't know who did it nothing will happen? There must be some clear punishment for that.
It doesn't matter which of a team's players committed the offense, if it is proven that anybody on a team broke the rules then the army leader and participating faction leaders get 24 hour bans. The point is to make faction leaders responsible for their mercs.
Its a shit set of rules and punishments, but the other alternatives (constant and guaranteed admin supervision or coded fixes) simply aren't practical
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Add the little giant ladder system, all problems with ladders will be solved, because this ladder does everything!
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
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Strat map
1) CMP's rules for not attacking your village to delay your enemy
Red = still working on the rule
Orange = currently a topic or poll is running about this
Green = finished rule
2) Multiaccounting (No - chadz)
3) Accountsharing a) Official (discussion topic + Yes or No - poll) b) Unofficial (No - chadz)
4) StratViever and other tools ( discussion topic + Yes or No - poll)
5) Night time rules ( discussion topic + Yes or No - poll)
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3 is already not allowed afaik, will look it up later, but the big "multiaccountbanwave" was for a big part account sharing. In my opinion managing multiple accounts by yourself is multiaccounting, and thats what accountsharing is (you don't only use your own, but also your friends accounts). I will however check with chadz first if he has time for it, if he says no on this i will not make a topic on it. If he says thats arguable, then a topic will be made.
4.... Is completely different by each tool. One tool (eyecandy) has been added to strat itself, others like the sorted inventory script is being used a lot without any objection, and stratviewer as example is a highly protested and in a completely different category. It might be possible to make a list of things you are allowed to do with a tool, and things you are not, ill check into that later since it will be a bigger task to sort out.
5 guidelines could be made here, but best to be solved by game-mechanics. You can't make a rule like "dont attack at 3AM, cause what is 3am for one guy is 11 pm for the other. This is the case on both NA and EU sides. Also, changing night time when you see an attack incoming is indeed a dickmove, but is best solved by game mechanics (make it take 24h before the changed night time goes into effect)
Sounds reasonable?
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Bad and needless post, sorry.
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Just a warning, any attempt to start flaming on this topic i will report.
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Due to the strat pause till 6th im gonna put this on a low fire for now, ill process what was voted on, and ill open 1-2 new polls soon for some of the yet unresolved rules.
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1.4 Poll closed, rule made.
1.6 Poll closed, rule made.
2.1 Poll closed, rule made.
1.2 Poll undecided, not sure how to handle that one yet. Input from you all is welcome ^^
If you disagree on the rules, you know where to find me ^^
Also, 1.3, laddering from ladders, is anyone sure on whether or not it is possible?
Edit:
Battle: 2.1 added on spawnraping
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Ladders 1.5 added.
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Mayby make final rules copy/paste by chadz or other dev and sticky in this section so that people will never think that its just made by Haboe and its his own fantasy.
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Thats the intention when its finished yes.
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Some extra rules added.
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Anyone with remarks on these rules?
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Anyone with remarks on these rules?
yes, i got one! :shock:
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Haboe, judging by the poll on my strategus viewer topic I'd say that for tools it should be: Yes, however from now on these kind of things should only be allowed with an announcement at development start and with betatesters from various different groups.
34 (26.2%).
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4 answers and the one you picked has only 26%, thats not enough to make it better then the other options :P
Im gonna go with what chadz said, that its good that players make tools for strat, just don't let it break the other rules (for example multiaccounting, your tool is never allowed to perform actions on an other account then your own)
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High time to begin distinguish multiaccounting from accountsharing. How do you imagine multiaccounting tool?
BTW:
Erasmas:
"We do lobby, however, for clear set of rules, and in-game mechanizm that allows to manage other clanmates accounts in sensible, limited and organized manner."
chadz:
"agree with that"
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"In my opinion, tools are allowed. In general, everything that's not disallowed is allowed. Multiaccounting was clearly and multiple times disallowed, tools are ok in my book"
( http://forum.meleegaming.com/strategus-general-discussion/grey-order-strat-announcement/30/ )
Does anyone know how to make such a tool?
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Personally, i think that if you start to allow accountsharing, there is no way to separate it from multiaccounting.
Though, this is up to chadz.
EDIT:
Unless ofc if its by game mechanics.
And for the love of god, if anyone develops a tool like that, let the devs know. Bans are always funny to laugh at, but unnecessary ones are rather sad. (accountsharing is not legal (yet))