cRPG

Off Topic => Historical Discussion => Topic started by: Sir_Senior_the_Eldest on December 17, 2012, 07:56:07 pm

Title: Why do many (eastern) helmets have spikes?
Post by: Sir_Senior_the_Eldest on December 17, 2012, 07:56:07 pm
Hi guys,

I've thought about this question for some time now.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Why do they have this stylistic spike on their head? And I don't want to discuss about design or the "terrifying" look or so.

I train 1h and shield irl from time to time and I thought that this spike could probably be a pain in the wearer's neck (literally).
If you make a side swing above the guys head there are 3 options:

1) The helmet goes with the strike and falls off the guys head or

2) The helmet fits firmly and the strike makes the head move in a not so healthy position or

3) The helmet turns in a way, the guy cannot see anymore or at least becomes confused.

Both are not that good for the guy with the head. Why is this spike still so popular?

Is this impression right? What is your opinion?







Title: Re: Why do many (eastern) helmets have spikes?
Post by: Osiris on December 17, 2012, 09:33:55 pm
 Something i wondered too, its the reason Viking helms with horns are stupid, perhaps its something religious or from the forging process?
Title: Re: Why do many (eastern) helmets have spikes?
Post by: donib on December 17, 2012, 09:35:41 pm
I think it is really aesthetic, you can ask the same why do samurai have a crescent or any other shape on their helmets.

Only logical answer could be, (and i dont know how the smithing techniques were back in the days) is that when they would forge the helmet, they would pour the metal in to a mold, so that is the piece were the metal has been poured in and maybe they just make it look cool in the end.

Take a look at this one

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


you can clearly see a tip on the helmet, might be because of the same reason, molding process.

Again i am just speculating on this, seems as a plausible answer.
Title: Re: Why do many (eastern) helmets have spikes?
Post by: Sir_Senior_the_Eldest on December 18, 2012, 02:28:33 am
Ah ok. Thanks so far. Seems possible to think about the moulding process. After all there are also some eastern helmets without this gigantic spice on top (like for example one like donib's avatar) I think one can cope with such a small spike and still looks awesome  :)

So maybe it was kind of a status symbol for knights on horses (who don't have to worry about lots of side strikes above their head).

A sidenote:
I've read about a problem for British soldiers in the WWs. Their usual helmet was derived from the one my avatar wears, with a wide edge all around. The problem was that it was no rare event, that a soldier who was just wounded by a bullet and fell to the ground could possibly break his neck because of this rim. So even in the 20th century the style played an even more important role than the actual benefit.
Title: Re: Why do many (eastern) helmets have spikes?
Post by: Latvian on December 18, 2012, 03:00:11 am
probably same reason why they made helmets like this   

visitors can't see pics , please register or login



its for style to be swag
Title: Re: Why do many (eastern) helmets have spikes?
Post by: Abay on December 18, 2012, 03:20:26 am
you better use this my friend, you will see more than you expected  :wink:

If you want more specialized answers, you can also use its forums. It is active and supoorted by some professors

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Why do many (eastern) helmets have spikes?
Post by: Adamar on December 18, 2012, 01:57:45 pm
They could charge forward with a headbutt in a desperate move, or take their helmet off and use it as a weapon if they ran out of options, I suppose...
Title: Re: Why do many (eastern) helmets have spikes?
Post by: Prinz_Karl on December 18, 2012, 05:36:20 pm
Fighting with your head could end very stupid: You will lose your protection totaly after the charge and it's easy to charge you back and it's unlike to even create enough impact.

I read that it should deflect hits with swords but I too don't think that the helmet is tight enough on the head to do that. More likely that it was for aesthetic purpose only as you could also attach a hair tail or plumes on it.

Something i wondered too, its the reason Viking helms with horns are stupid, perhaps its something religious or from the forging process?

I don't think vikings really had horns on their helmets...
Title: Re: Why do many (eastern) helmets have spikes?
Post by: Osiris on December 18, 2012, 09:39:17 pm
Fighting with your head could end very stupid: You will lose your protection totaly after the charge and it's easy to charge you back and it's unlike to even create enough impact.

I read that it should deflect hits with swords but I too don't think that the helmet is tight enough on the head to do that. More likely that it was for aesthetic purpose only as you could also attach a hair tail or plumes on it.

I don't think vikings really had horns on their helmets...


i know they dont :D hence the viking helms with horns are stupid. i meant modern day ones but i could have been clearer :P
Title: Re: Why do many (eastern) helmets have spikes?
Post by: djavo on December 19, 2012, 12:59:00 am
This is how buttplug got invented
Title: Re: Why do many (eastern) helmets have spikes?
Post by: Paul on December 19, 2012, 09:13:57 am
Two words: Flying Headbutt
Title: Re: Why do many (eastern) helmets have spikes?
Post by: BlindGuy on December 19, 2012, 10:30:27 am
I think it is really aesthetic, you can ask the same why do samurai have a crescent or any other shape on their helmets.

Only logical answer could be, (and i dont know how the smithing techniques were back in the days) is that when they would forge the helmet, they would pour the metal in to a mold, so that is the piece were the metal has been poured in and maybe they just make it look cool in the end.

Take a look at this one

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


you can clearly see a tip on the helmet, might be because of the same reason, molding process.

Again i am just speculating on this, seems as a plausible answer.

No, you dont pour steel into a mold to make armour.


Only realistic answer is: So 2handers can hold a left swing, look at the floor, and run fullspeed into enemies to do 100 pierce dmg.
Title: Re: Why do many (eastern) helmets have spikes?
Post by: the real god emperor on December 19, 2012, 09:12:53 pm
Eastern helmets have "spikes" cuz we re thousands of kilometers away from the server
Title: Re: Why do many (eastern) helmets have spikes?
Post by: Penitent on December 20, 2012, 01:15:01 am
The helms mentioned above (the bascinet and the avatar helm) have a small point on the top to deflect blows...not due to a molding process.  If the helmet is a perfectly shaped dome, you would try to land a blow directly perpendicular to the helm's "crown" to try and crush it or whatever.  If the top of the helm is slightly angled, creating a point, its harder to land an overhead blow that is perpendicular to the top of the helm.  It is more likely that the blow will glance, or at least have some of the force re-directed so it doesn't all go directly to your skull.

It lessens one of the helms "weak points", in other words.

I have no idea why eastern helms have GIANT spikes though.
Title: Re: Why do many (eastern) helmets have spikes?
Post by: Zanze on December 20, 2012, 01:21:49 am
Stupid obsession with penis-like shapes probably. Who's got the bigger stick = superior. Supposedly.
Title: Re: Why do many (eastern) helmets have spikes?
Post by: Torben on December 23, 2012, 11:42:19 am
basic armor theory here.
this:
to deflect blows...

and the fact that even if penetrated,  the relative armor thickness is higher if penetrated in an angle.  same solution the soviets introduced with their t-34.

less plate diameter resulting in less weight @ higher relative plate diameter concerning the most obvious blow direction.
Title: Re: Why do many (eastern) helmets have spikes?
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on March 03, 2013, 07:52:29 am
Downward blows will deflect to the side, meaning that your skull remains un-split and you live to fight another day (maybe).
Title: Re: Why do many (eastern) helmets have spikes?
Post by: Angantyr on March 08, 2013, 02:50:25 pm
Mainly for fashion, but put the spike into the ground in camp and you have a great rain water collector or soup bowl.
Title: Re: Why do many (eastern) helmets have spikes?
Post by: Paul on March 08, 2013, 04:42:53 pm
Flying headbutt for rageball (when wearing a spiked  helmet)?

y/n
Title: Re: Why do many (eastern) helmets have spikes?
Post by: Thomek on March 09, 2013, 01:58:45 am
To appear taller and deflect blows, then it becomes a style and everything becomes exaggerated.
Title: Re: Why do many (eastern) helmets have spikes?
Post by: Joseph Porta on March 20, 2013, 01:04:07 pm
For the wife, ofcourse!
Title: Re: Why do many (eastern) helmets have spikes?
Post by: Torben on March 20, 2013, 03:12:09 pm
Mainly for fashion, but put the spike into the ground in camp and you have a great rain water collector or soup bowl.

rly?
Title: Re: Why do many (eastern) helmets have spikes?
Post by: Christo on March 20, 2013, 03:34:01 pm
Man I wouldn't put a helmet on my head that had soup in it.

Water is alright and I can imagine that, but not that stuff. lol
Title: Re: Why do many (eastern) helmets have spikes?
Post by: Fringe on March 21, 2013, 12:02:24 am
basic armor theory here.
this:
and the fact that even if penetrated,  the relative armor thickness is higher if penetrated in an angle.  same solution the soviets introduced with their t-34.

less plate diameter resulting in less weight @ higher relative plate diameter concerning the most obvious blow direction.

Think it's best said that it could be used to deflect blows, in a dynamic sense. But being unique to a certain culture, much like all armor is, it's subject to the trends of that culture. In short, many armors are based off of art...in this case Islamic art. Many of these arms and armors were formed off of Islamic iconography, including vegetal patterns, figural representation, and calligraphy.

One thing about this helm in particular was that this helmet was not only seen as just armor, but signified as a kind of religious insignia, the fighter of a Holy War. To answer your question about the disadvantages in melee combat, the turban helmet was mostly intended for heavy cavalry.

So to sum it up, the geometry of the helm is widely based on the art, religion, and effectivity as a defensive helm. Also like it was proposed before, it largely displayed the wearer, who would have been mounted on a large Arabian warhorse, decked out in a vivid display of armor. The conical, bulbous shape is also very characteristic with the Islamic mosques, further signifying cultural and religious influence, showing that geometry was also another important part in Islamic iconography.

This is my personal opinion derived from factual sources, including the metropolitan museum of art's webpage. I also read a book, of which I can't remember the name :(, that was a history of armor and it's dynamic and cultural relevance.

Below is a picture of a Islamic foot soldier, noticeably without the turban helm that is in discussion.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

A turban helmet, like the one that is featured in cRPG.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Why do many (eastern) helmets have spikes?
Post by: zagibu on May 11, 2013, 02:32:41 pm
It's a stylized minaret.
Title: Re: Why do many (eastern) helmets have spikes?
Post by: 51L3NC3R on June 09, 2013, 05:47:59 pm
Early Russian helmets had the spike as holders for their horsehair plume as part of the full military dress
Wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickelhaube---under history (1st paragraph)
Title: Re: Why do many (eastern) helmets have spikes?
Post by: Micah on June 09, 2013, 06:22:09 pm
so obvious that its an antenna for the helmet radio to better hear hot top-ten mosque sounds in battle :mrgreen: