cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Haboe on December 15, 2012, 02:17:36 am

Title: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: Haboe on December 15, 2012, 02:17:36 am
Give pikes and longspears the option to overheadstab.
If you don't get what im saying, here a vid with random music over it.


Perhaps needless to say but you block an overhead stab with a... upper block.
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: Artyem on December 15, 2012, 02:55:36 am
no bcuz pik alrdy outstab my MW danesh gratsord nurf pike n longspeer buff 2h stab!
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: fdaslan on December 15, 2012, 03:13:56 am
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Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: Froto_the_Loc on December 15, 2012, 03:22:53 am
Yes, and no.
On one hand, it's realistic and a good addition.
On the other, it's wonky to block and still acts as an overhead, and not a stab.
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: Haboe on December 15, 2012, 03:28:40 am
Yes, and no.
On one hand, it's realistic and a good addition.
On the other, it's wonky to block and still acts as an overhead, and not a stab.

only works as overhead on the blocking part. You block high.
The animation is a stab, but you can't move it up or down like the normal stab. I don't know if you can rear horses with it though.
but its useful to hit the horseman and not the horse. In my experience its harder to hit, but easier headstabs.
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: Jarlek on December 15, 2012, 06:45:52 pm
only works as overhead on the blocking part. You block high.
The animation is a stab, but you can't move it up or down like the normal stab. I don't know if you can rear horses with it though.
but its useful to hit the horseman and not the horse. In my experience its harder to hit, but easier headstabs.
If it is the same high-stab as in WFaS then it rear horses.
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: Haboe on December 15, 2012, 07:16:47 pm
If its added it has to be balanced ofc, so whether or not it will rear horses can always be decided by the devs.
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: Haboe on December 15, 2012, 10:14:12 pm
5k for the first to tell me who this song is from ;)
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: Knitler on December 15, 2012, 10:50:14 pm
Imagine Dragons - Its time, offer will be up.

Idea is still not that good in my mind. I miss that days when you couldnt block with LS, but now it would just be unfair. And with overheadstab .... Nargh. Make my awlpike also have that and it will be like NW i ran away from ^.^
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: Weewum on December 16, 2012, 02:16:31 am
Only for pikes and longspears

And remove blocking ofc.
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on December 16, 2012, 05:17:53 pm
Only for hoplites.
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: Kafein on December 16, 2012, 05:20:00 pm
I'm fine with this if pikes and longspears become unable to block.
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: Skurwiwij on December 16, 2012, 05:33:39 pm
If possible: add same penalty to overhead stab hoplites have, make this attack stab-blockable instead of overhead, add same effect ranged have in body contact but keep blocks.

Would be perfect ^^
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: no_rules_just_play on December 16, 2012, 06:46:18 pm
I'm fine with this if pikes and longspears become unable to block.
if this every happens, it should be impossible to block multiple pikes at the same time. otherwise piking is just useless
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: Zanze on December 16, 2012, 07:02:48 pm
Please add.
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: Kafein on December 16, 2012, 08:16:47 pm
if this every happens, it should be impossible to block multiple pikes at the same time. otherwise piking is just useless

Adding an overhead stab, that would be blocked by an up block, is making blocking multiple pikes (used by players that were gifted with brains) impossible.
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: Haboe on December 16, 2012, 11:29:50 pm
having a piker and 2hander against you is the same story :)

Good footwork, very fast blocking or being a shielder are the best counters  :mrgreen:

But i heard a lot "if they can't block i like it"
Interesting, i must say i am curious how that would redefine the role of a piker.
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: Inglorious on December 17, 2012, 05:03:31 am
The way I envision it happening if this were to be implemented:

Initial poke; as players draw closer together (Pike dominant phase). Then when everyone clashes, secondary weapons (not pikes) become most effective, as opposing lines fold and inter-melee begins and people drop their pikes. Yes they still will be effective even during the mixed melee due to their amazing length and support capability, but if someone was to be surrounded, hypothetically they should either drop it for 2nd'ry or try to jump-spin-stab as they run.
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: BlueKnight on December 17, 2012, 05:58:56 pm
Group of 3 pikers will be impossible to reach if those attacks require different blocks, also... making 4 minute video of 2 attacks.... I guess 1 minute would be enough.

Also stabs in this game behave kinda strange when it comes to hit detection. Adding more stabs won't make game less broken. We need some more advanced mechanics but adding more stabs, really? Stab from a horseman is on the same height as the stab of that longspearman but you can block stab of a horseman with downblock and you would be supposed to block stab from longspearman with upblock?

What can I say... I don't think installing this in crpg is a good idea.
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on December 17, 2012, 11:36:45 pm
That's kind of the point BK (that you can't block 3 pikes stabbing at you at the same time).  Get a shield, or get more people.  As Inglorious said, once you get close enough, those 3 pikemen are pretty useless if they have a 1h/shield or really anyone with a smaller weapon in their face.

The only problem I foresee with this, is trying to determine if the 5 pikes coming at me are up or down stabs :P
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: Moncho on December 17, 2012, 11:40:51 pm
Make my awlpike also have that and it will be like NW i ran away from ^.^

This ^^

Also, if implemented the animations should be a bit more different, would hate to be convinced that it was a lower stab when it actually is a higher one.
And if implemented, hoplites need this
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: BlueKnight on December 18, 2012, 05:35:09 pm
That's kind of the point BK (that you can't block 3 pikes stabbing at you at the same time).  Get a shield, or get more people.  As Inglorious said, once you get close enough, those 3 pikemen are pretty useless if they have a 1h/shield or really anyone with a smaller weapon in their face.

The only problem I foresee with this, is trying to determine if the 5 pikes coming at me are up or down stabs :P
You know... Now when being alone versus those 3 guys you can't kill any one them because you have to keep blocking but if there were 2 of them with upper-stabs and they knew what to do, even surviving could be hard.
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: Haboe on December 18, 2012, 06:14:17 pm
Same if a current piker is with a 2hander...

i don't see the problem in it being hard if you are outnumbered (1v2 or 1v3) Its should be hard.
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: Gravoth_iii on December 18, 2012, 06:48:06 pm
They already tried this didnt they, and removed it because all the other polearms got the same overhead animation then, also overhead poke is kinda annoying to block since it is quite similar to regular thrust.
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: BlueKnight on December 18, 2012, 10:07:44 pm
Same if a current piker is with a 2hander...

i don't see the problem in it being hard if you are outnumbered (1v2 or 1v3) Its should be hard.
You seem not to like 2h weapons...
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 18, 2012, 10:08:52 pm
You seem not to like 2h weapons...
I'm guessing that's 'cause 2h swords generally are brokenly overpowered.
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: Dark_Blade on December 18, 2012, 10:34:39 pm
NO
just no, cuz atm some people can kill another people 1 vs 1 just with running and 1 hit direction... what should be if they shall have 2 directions?
yes if remove blocks for pikes
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: Sivlan on December 18, 2012, 10:36:35 pm
i agree with zlisch and with that topic. i firstly encountered overhead thrusts in Vikingr which is sadly slow, so they didnt do any difference, in Napoleonic wars, they are too fast ( muskets in melee more) if it would be fine balanced, it would make hoplite and pike build users game much more enjoyable and less boring, would give new teamfight tactics, and generally be a step forward putting pikes in to game again as it was long time ago, and against what i had nothing to say :) YES DO IT NOW!
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: Haboe on December 19, 2012, 01:57:49 am
NO
just no, cuz atm some people can kill another people 1 vs 1 just with running and 1 hit direction... what should be if they shall have 2 directions?
yes if remove blocks for pikes

Then 1 of those ppl is chase dieler or muffin, and the other a guy that broke his right mousebutton.
Pike is a lot weaker then the other weapons in duels, and the rare cases of pro players that get to win a duel now and then don't change that ;)

I do however like the idea of removing blocking for pikes and longspears if this would be added.
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: karasu on December 19, 2012, 02:05:55 am
Even if I like the idea itself (kinda makes sense the usage of it) would ruin and create chaos in terms of balance due to the game mechanics.
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: Gurnisson on December 19, 2012, 02:15:33 am
Pikes are fine as they are
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: Augustus on December 19, 2012, 03:32:26 am
I think it would be nice, though, to be able to do pike formations without getting destroyed by a farmer who can down-block.
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: pingpong on December 19, 2012, 11:31:14 am
If no overhead stab is coming, then pikes and long spears need overhead slash back, no matter how ridiculous it looks like it still made them atleast somewhat viable alternative to 2h bundle of sticksry
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: Gravoth_iii on December 19, 2012, 05:19:02 pm
If no overhead stab is coming, then pikes and long spears need overhead slash back, no matter how ridiculous it looks like it still made them atleast somewhat viable alternative to 2h bundle of sticksry

2h and pikes are completely different and viable in different ways, 2h may have a ridiculous stab but pike has small stun and massive reach, in teamfights pikes are way more usefull than 2h as it is. I think pikes would be op with a overhead stab, i mean how are you suppose to block them in teamfights? Its already difficult enough to keep track of blocking down when in big fights.

And by pikes i mean both longspear and pike ofcourse.
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: Gurnisson on December 19, 2012, 05:31:19 pm
but pike has small stun

Excuse me, what did you just say?
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: oprah_winfrey on December 19, 2012, 05:42:23 pm
Excuse me, what did you just say?

Technically they do...its just the same as every other weapon in the game. :D
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: Gravoth_iii on December 19, 2012, 08:55:50 pm
Nono, im pretty sure poles still lock people in place from time to time, not enough to land another hit or anything but when i poke people they get stuck, but when i slash with 1h they can still keep moving after being hit.
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: Ragni_Bross on December 22, 2012, 09:24:01 pm
Give it the high stab, make it a lot cheaper so peasants can buy it early on and still be useful and then make it unable to block. This makes sense and I've suggested it before. Or make it braceable against enemy cav like in Deluge. In other words, make it work like a proper pike.
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: Teeth on December 22, 2012, 09:34:37 pm
Or make it braceable against enemy cav like in Deluge.
There is not a single situation in cRPG where I see bracing a pike having any use.
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: Ujin on December 22, 2012, 09:35:37 pm
Give overhead stab to hoplites only. That's right, i said it.
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: Leshma on December 22, 2012, 09:45:49 pm
Nono, im pretty sure poles still lock people in place from time to time, not enough to land another hit or anything but when i poke people they get stuck, but when i slash with 1h they can still keep moving after being hit.

Not sure about thrust, but it seems that overhead from 2D polearms still stunlocks people.
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: Sir_Winston_Churchill on December 23, 2012, 03:31:10 am
I really like this idea for hoplites. I don't think it's as good for pikes, but the big flaw for hoplites is that they can ONLY stab low. Therefore I think that adding an overhead attack (at least for the shorter spears) would really be beneficial.

In addition, it is also very realistic as Greek hoplites stabbed overhead most of the time. It really surprised me as they are usually depicted (Rome Total War) as stabbing underhand, but I've read quite a few sources that say they fought with overhand stabs primarily. Some pictures just to emphasize the point:

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Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: Weewum on December 23, 2012, 08:41:13 pm
Actually, pike formations would often have pikes held overhead in the renaissance.

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Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: Berserkadin on December 24, 2012, 06:39:40 pm
Giving it to hoplites would make sense in all ways. It's not like hoplites are OP, or flowing over the server. Spear and shield is really not that good as it should be.
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: pingpong on December 24, 2012, 09:06:41 pm
if youre going to add it to spear & shield guys, might just go all the way and add it to all spears + pike then, theyre not gonna get overly OP, infact id say adding it to hoplite builds would make them a bit OP because they can turtle from arsery spam while pikemen cant.
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: Yachdiel on December 24, 2012, 09:41:56 pm
I really like this idea for hoplites. I don't think it's as good for pikes, but the big flaw for hoplites is that they can ONLY stab low. Therefore I think that adding an overhead attack (at least for the shorter spears) would really be beneficial.

In addition, it is also very realistic as Greek hoplites stabbed overhead most of the time. It really surprised me as they are usually depicted (Rome Total War) as stabbing underhand, but I've read quite a few sources that say they fought with overhand stabs primarily. Some pictures just to emphasize the point:

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

I agree with the implementation for Hoplites, as Hoplites usually have a harder time being supporting of their group. With a decreased length, you will always see the hoplite, and know if its an up or down stab. Hoplites have the same minimum distance before being useful and can be taken on 1v1 easily, but are meant to operate as support or in a group of hoplites. 2 1h can swing different ways and can easily kill, 2 hoplites can be easily dealt with. It would be nice to finally feel capable of Hoplite formations.
Title: Re: Pikes and spears, overhead stab
Post by: bredeus on December 25, 2012, 08:02:45 pm
why only pikes? dont forget the spears :)