cRPG

Strategus => Strategus Issues => Topic started by: Noctivagant on December 10, 2012, 08:16:44 pm

Title: Siege Shields on the top of the skyladders
Post by: Noctivagant on December 10, 2012, 08:16:44 pm
Afaik its against the rules

Battle http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesupcoming#!?page=battledetail&id=1752

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Title: Re: Siege Shields on the top of the skyladders
Post by: Haboe on December 10, 2012, 08:20:26 pm
Obvious where the advantage lies for ranged:

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Title: Re: Siege Shields on the top of the skyladders
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on December 10, 2012, 08:36:08 pm
Seems legit, nothing to see hear. 

I thought sky ladders are against the rules, so anything on them wouldn't even be the issue to discuss.
Title: Re: Siege Shields on the top of the skyladders
Post by: Haboe on December 10, 2012, 10:21:22 pm
I think basically we want a dev to say if this is within the boundaries of fair play.
Not here to whine about mean enemy's abusing, just want to know where the border between tactics and exploiting is, so we can adjust battle tactics to it.
Title: Re: Siege Shields on the top of the skyladders
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on December 10, 2012, 10:25:54 pm
I always thought sky ladders were illegal, that they had to be touching something on both ends, is that not the case?
Title: Re: Siege Shields on the top of the skyladders
Post by: Haboe on December 10, 2012, 10:30:32 pm
Quote from: CrazyCracka420 on December 10, 2012, 10:25:54 pm
I always thought sky ladders were illegal, that they had to be touching something on both ends, is that not the case?

Im not 100% sure on that anymore, so a devs confirmation on the rules would very much be appreciated.
Title: Re: Siege Shields on the top of the skyladders
Post by: Lt_Anders on December 11, 2012, 03:10:01 am
Except none of those ladders are skyladders.

They all touch the ground at some point. Sky ladders are Ladders built on top of OTHER ladders, not ladders just really high up.

Though to the second point, I believe that the shields would constitute "sky laddering" as they are material built on top of another material(minus siege towers)
Title: Re: Siege Shields on the top of the skyladders
Post by: Vovka on December 11, 2012, 07:05:45 am
looks cool XD
Title: Re: Siege Shields on the top of the skyladders
Post by: Zaharist on December 11, 2012, 07:10:42 am
love it too! well done
Title: Re: Siege Shields on the top of the skyladders
Post by: Andswaru on December 11, 2012, 10:21:35 am
Its just as lame as all other uses of ladders in open field battles, including laying them down on the floor too block horses and flags imo.
Title: Re: Siege Shields on the top of the skyladders
Post by: BASNAK on December 11, 2012, 02:16:39 pm
Lol genius.
Title: Re: Siege Shields on the top of the skyladders
Post by: Haboe on December 11, 2012, 03:32:08 pm
Quote from: Andswaru on December 11, 2012, 10:21:35 am
Its just as lame as all other uses of ladders in open field battles, including laying them down on the floor too block horses and flags imo.

Laying down is realistic (aside from the fact that in real battles they used other stuff then ladders for it)
Skyladders with siegeshields on them defies gravity, so once again i just want to know the rules on this. If skyladdering is allowed i will start using it in my own battles (you simply get shot to pieces if your enemy does this and you don't) if its not allowed i will start paying attention and report future cases of abuse. Currently its a grey area which sucks.
Title: Re: Siege Shields on the top of the skyladders
Post by: Erasmas on December 11, 2012, 03:36:17 pm
Lack of clean and unambiguous rules for Strat again.
 
Title: Re: Siege Shields on the top of the skyladders
Post by: Gurnisson on December 11, 2012, 03:42:00 pm
Quote from: Haboe on December 11, 2012, 03:32:08 pm
Currently its a grey area which sucks.

Pun intended? :wink:
Title: Re: Siege Shields on the top of the skyladders
Post by: Haboe on December 11, 2012, 03:43:54 pm
Quote from: Gurnisson on December 11, 2012, 03:42:00 pm
Pun intended? :wink:

No i hoped we were past that :(

Just happened to be grey order that did it, but thats not the problem here  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Siege Shields on the top of the skyladders
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on December 11, 2012, 04:10:29 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on December 11, 2012, 03:10:01 am
Except none of those ladders are skyladders.

They all touch the ground at some point. Sky ladders are Ladders built on top of OTHER ladders, not ladders just really high up.

Though to the second point, I believe that the shields would constitute "sky laddering" as they are material built on top of another material(minus siege towers)

Thanks for clarifying.  I still think it's retarded to have ladders that have nothing holding them up in the air but the wonky warband physics, but I digress.  Ladders need something to hold them up besides the ground, you can't have a triangle with only one point of contact.

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Title: Re: Siege Shields on the top of the skyladders
Post by: Lt_Anders on December 11, 2012, 04:28:59 pm
Quote from: CrazyCracka420 on December 11, 2012, 04:10:29 pm
Thanks for clarifying.  I still think it's retarded to have ladders that have nothing holding them up in the air but the wonky warband physics, but I digress.  Ladders need something to hold them up besides the ground, you can't have a triangle with only one point of contact.

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Incorrect. You can't have a triangle(or in this case, i'd be a cantilever) being supported only by a roller connection(Engineer terms) otherwise the item will tip the other way, just like a seesaw. Also ladders have 2 points of contact. Even though you can't see them, the second point is very likely at the bottom of ladder as ladders "stop" the moment ANY part of it's model hits "solid" objects.

welcome to the wonkey ladder system. Goes through crenelations on walls, but not walls themselves.  And a host of other "wtf?" things.
Title: Re: Siege Shields on the top of the skyladders
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on December 11, 2012, 04:32:59 pm
I think that's what I said, you can't have a triangle with only 1 point of contact, you'd need 2 points of contact...that's why the sky ladders wouldn't work (what I'm calling sky ladders: a ladder with only one points of contact).  A straight ladder needs to have 2 points of contact to support itself...unless you were to somehow balance it straight up :P
Title: Re: Siege Shields on the top of the skyladders
Post by: oprah_winfrey on December 11, 2012, 06:40:34 pm
Please add little giant ladder systems.

http://www.littlegiantladder.com/
Title: Re: Siege Shields on the top of the skyladders
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on December 11, 2012, 09:14:27 pm
Quote from: oprah_winfrey on December 11, 2012, 06:40:34 pm
Please add little giant ladder systems.

http://www.littlegiantladder.com/

Yeah I just recently got one like this, that's why I was making sure to be clear about the type of ladder :P
Title: Re: Siege Shields on the top of the skyladders
Post by: Le_Mikz on March 05, 2013, 08:59:03 pm
 Soo .. How this will be judged??
Title: Re: Siege Shields on the top of the skyladders
Post by: Shemaforash on March 05, 2013, 09:28:55 pm
Old as fuck
Title: Re: Siege Shields on the top of the skyladders
Post by: vipere on March 06, 2013, 10:10:00 am
Quote
Thanks for clarifying.  I still think it's retarded to have ladders that have nothing holding them up in the air but the wonky warband physics, but I digress.  Ladders need something to hold them up besides the ground, you can't have a triangle with only one point of contact.

Quote
Thanks for clarifying.  I still think it's retarded to have ladders that have nothing holding them up in the air but the wonky warband physics, but I digress.  Ladders need something to hold them up besides the ground, you can't have a triangle with only one point of contact.

Quote
Thanks for clarifying.  I still think it's retarded to have ladders that have nothing holding them up in the air but the wonky warband physics, but I digress.  Ladders need something to hold them up besides the ground, you can't have a triangle with only one point of contact.

Why people just can't get that and still abuse the game physics to have the best performance and k/d

I think we can stop abuse those ladders,  i don't understand why there is no strict ban for that, like 3 days, or more. Make it bannable and those skyladders will magicaly dissapear.

Title: Re: Siege Shields on the top of the skyladders
Post by: KingBread on March 07, 2013, 07:36:48 am
 
Quote from: vipere on March 06, 2013, 10:10:00 am
Why people just can't get that and still abuse the game physics to have the best performance and k/d

I think we can stop abuse those ladders,  i don't understand why there is no strict ban for that, like 3 days, or more. Make it bannable and those skyladders will magicaly dissapear.


Mayby becouse those are not sky ladders ?
Title: Re: Siege Shields on the top of the skyladders
Post by: Malaclypse on March 07, 2013, 09:08:15 am
Quote from: vipere on March 06, 2013, 10:10:00 am
I think we can stop abuse those ladders,  i don't understand why there is no strict ban for that, like 3 days, or more. Make it bannable and those skyladders will magicaly dissapear.

Mostly because, I guess, it's an issue of who to ban. Who threw said ladder and left it up? Do we ban them? Do we even know who they are? Who stood on it? Do we ban them? Do we even know who they are? Who's battle is it? Do we ban them?
Title: Re: Siege Shields on the top of the skyladders
Post by: vipere on March 07, 2013, 09:59:28 am
Quote from: Malaclypse on March 07, 2013, 09:08:15 am
Mostly because, I guess, it's an issue of who to ban. Who threw said ladder and left it up? Do we ban them? Do we even know who they are? Who stood on it? Do we ban them? Do we even know who they are? Who's battle is it? Do we ban them?

They can start with those who are standing on those unrealistic ladders, it's maybe not possible to stop this skyladdering, so lets stop those guys who like abusing it ( skyladdering is bannable, but magical ladders who stand on only one point of contact is not, why ? we all know it's retarded )

No punishment = Players don't care and still do it ( like the door glitch on siege )

if they need to ban 30 players, lets ban them, after that they will understand



Title: Re: Siege Shields on the top of the skyladders
Post by: Mongolista on March 07, 2013, 03:04:23 pm
Quote from: Malaclypse on March 07, 2013, 09:08:15 am
Mostly because, I guess, it's an issue of who to ban. Who threw said ladder and left it up? Do we ban them? Do we even know who they are? Who stood on it? Do we ban them? Do we even know who they are? Who's battle is it? Do we ban them?

Banning the person leading the battle seems legit, for lets say a week for starters and a month for those who keep repeatedly doing that. The person who leads the battle is responsible for who they invite along their side as well as for their manners in the battle, also it should make the others learn not to do that otherwise the one who got banned thanks to these will join their battle next time and do the same shit to them to get them banned, so if you dont want others to do it in your battles, dont do it in theirs...and a bonus ban can go to those who get caught on the SS building such ladders or misusing them (archers, pikemen, xbows).
Title: Re: Siege Shields on the top of the skyladders
Post by: Erasmas on March 07, 2013, 03:14:28 pm
Quote from: Mongolista on March 07, 2013, 03:04:23 pm
Banning the person leading the battle seems legit, for lets say a week for starters and a month for those who keep repeatedly doing that. The person who leads the battle is responsible for who they invite along their side as well as for their manners in the battle, also it should make the others learn not to do that otherwise the one who got banned thanks to these will join their battle next time and do the same shit to them to get them banned, so if you dont want others to do it in your battles, dont do it in theirs...and a bonus ban can go to those who get caught on the SS building such ladders or misusing them (archers, pikemen, xbows).

I do not agree.

1. It depends what the "person leading the battle" means. Is it a person who is "attacker" or "defender"? Does not make any sense. I made some attacks, or defended the fiefs and I did not even participate in some of these battles. Tactical movements on the map are made by specific persons who may have nothing to do with the battle itself. So, is it the commanding person? And who that may be? Do you want to check TS channels to find out who is really commanding? And sometimes you have more than one person commanding different classes.

2. Sometimes you have +50 people in the roster. The person who makes the attack may not be responsible for the roster, or even commanding officer may not be responsible for that (it happens quite often). You cannot control all players. Strat battle is just a roughly organized chaos. You even can not control what happens on the entire battlefield. Sometimes you invite random guys (we all hear that Strat is more or less closed to random guys who are not in clans, so opening up seem a good thing). Sometimes I can hear "do not do it, it is not allowed" and the guy is doing that anyway. Punishment for the person who actually did something wrong is OK, but if you start punishing persons who are commanding the battle seems to be as group punishment - you deprive the clan of the general who may be full of good intentions, (or you punish innocent guy appointed to attack on the map -  see point 1). Show me someone who after few such bans would like to take active part in Strategus.
Title: Re: Siege Shields on the top of the skyladders
Post by: Zox_Fury on March 07, 2013, 03:36:36 pm
One more point is important : Subjectivity. By definition everyone is subjective. You like or dislike some guys and your judgement is inevitably biased intentionnally or not.Everyone see that on football for example when you support a team you re blind to their errors or fault and you re leniant.

 I don't accuse noone but it's human and everyone knows how Grey are held responsible  . I don't say that they re white or dark (ofc they're grey) only that some admins could be a bit tougher against them.

Sky ladders is made by everyone not only one block as some guys tried to explain. Punishment of a team of 30 players in a server  as Crpg is an heresy and counterproductive .

I'm curious to know how you could accused  and on which facts .

That's my opinion and i don't blame anyone .
Title: Re: Siege Shields on the top of the skyladders
Post by: Mongolista on March 07, 2013, 05:23:55 pm
Quote from: Erasmas on March 07, 2013, 03:14:28 pm
I do not agree.

1) The person leading the battle is the one written down on the roster, I do not mean any tactical leading, just the name on the roster, so he either personally makes sure everything is as it should be or trusts smbdy (from his clan who can invite people) enough to rely upon him even when still bearing the responsibility for the actions in the battle. Attacker/Defender does not matter, the side which builds intentional skyladders (and leaves them like that for the archers to misuse it) should be held responsible.

2) You may choose not to invite randomers in your team and get in only people you trust - hence you are liable for your team.

3) Even as a randomer, the person should try their very best not to breach the rules as if you get punished for their actions you will most likely make sure not to invite these for any of your future fights.

4) You may always break the ladders not to let the randomers build intentional skyladders, if the archers make a fucking skyladder nest with siege shields on its end and the whole team lets them doing so, it is only good that the leader of the team gets punished as he let them do it/did not stop them from doing so.

5) Id much rather take this responsibility for my team than seeing this shit happening every second battle because the "builders" of these skyladder nests can always hide in the crowd of 50 people who, by ignoring it, allow them to do so which in the end is almost the same as contributing to the exploit, aint it? I think the responsibility of the leader is still much better solution than banning the whole team of 50 people who did not do anything against their team building the (intentional) skyladders.
Title: Re: Siege Shields on the top of the skyladders
Post by: Phantasmal on March 07, 2013, 05:48:26 pm
I think the best thing would be getting rid of ladders in field battles and implementing some kind of new item to stop/slow down cav (i.e. caltrops). This way we would avoid arguments over unrealistic ladders and the grey area that surrounds them.
Title: Re: Siege Shields on the top of the skyladders
Post by: Lt_Anders on March 07, 2013, 06:33:21 pm
UM FYI this thread is super old and the rules regarding this have since been clarified and put into place.

Discussion over this(and unrealistic ladders) has been beaten to death so much, most people know all the talking points already.
Title: Re: Siege Shields on the top of the skyladders
Post by: oprah_winfrey on March 07, 2013, 06:44:53 pm
Instead of trying to enforce rules that are unenforceable. Or having the "solution" of banning the person that is "leading the battle" for a week/month, I just like to look at it as the ladder has invisible props.

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Oh that ladder that goes up 90 degrees from the grass? Well there is a stake in the middle of it that holds it up. Oh look at that ladder that is hanging off that building, looks like they put a weight at the end to balance it out.
Title: Re: Siege Shields on the top of the skyladders
Post by: Mongolista on March 08, 2013, 01:03:03 pm
Quote from: oprah_winfrey on March 07, 2013, 06:44:53 pm
Instead of trying to enforce rules that are unenforceable. Or having the "solution" of banning the person that is "leading the battle" for a week/month, I just like to look at it as the ladder has invisible props.

Oh that ladder that goes up 90 degrees from the grass? Well there is a stake in the middle of it that holds it up. Oh look at that ladder that is hanging off that building, looks like they put a weight at the end to balance it out.

Reminds me of Circus acts, rather than a mediaval battle but hey, at least sometimes makes sense now:D