Why do people use them?
Do YOU use them?
If so, why?
Tom... That build makes no sense. Get 5 PS, because that is at least viable. Unless you intend to use steel pick.
Still, you won't be able to wear some armours and gloves.
I too played 2h for 3 gens or so, easiest time i've ever had in this game.
What I don't understand is why this game rewards players for effortless kills.
Every patch seems to buff / indirectly buff 2h, why is this?
If so, why?
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people use it because its overpowered, no disadvantages at all. Broken animations and unrealistic insane reach that outranges pretty much all but the dedicated longspears. Human nature is to gravitate to the path of lease resistance and maximum reward.
change all 2h sword thrusts to polearm animation and then you'd actually see some diversity in 2h. its also fault of lazy, apathetic or incompetent devs/balance team. When swords account for 75% or more of 2h dmg/kills, something is wrong. For one, all unbalanced weapons probably need a weight increase of about 25-50% so they have chance to stun just about any sword or weapon in the game.
people use it because its overpowered, no disadvantages at all. Broken animations and unrealistic insane reach that outranges pretty much all but the dedicated longspears. Human nature is to gravitate to the path of lease resistance and maximum reward.
change all 2h sword thrusts to polearm animation and then you'd actually see some diversity in 2h. its also fault of lazy, apathetic or incompetent devs/balance team. When swords account for 75% or more of 2h dmg/kills, something is wrong. For one, all unbalanced weapons probably need a weight increase of about 25-50% so they have chance to stun just about any sword or weapon in the game.
I've been playing 2H since I started but I have an easier time with polearms. Couldn't tell you why. I'd switch to polearms if I gave a damn about my KDR.
I have a harder time dueling polearms than 2H as a HBS 2H user. Length makes up for any speed advantage I have and the positions look relatively similar enough that I get lost sometimes when they feint a lot.. and the darker color of the wood can blend in with ground and make it less obvious than shiney swords and then there's getting clobbed by lolspin backswings :(
Why does it seem like 70% of players use them?
Every 2handed axe got a significant buff to damage last patch, Persian War Axes, Great Bardiche, etc all do around 50 cut damage now, I think it was across the board ~5 more damage? That was done in fact to make 2hands more diverse and popular. You shouldn't shit talk the devs when they are aware and just a few weeks ago addressed the issue with lots of bonus damage across the board to axes, which you conveniently forgot to mention.
Problem is most other 2handers besides the swords simply aren't very good. They are all unbalanced, short, slow, etc. On their own though, I think 38-41 or so cut damage that most top swords have simply isn't that powerful, when everyone is stacking armor. NA metagame has definitely shifted heavily in favor of long pierce weapons as far as polearms are concerned, capable of doing more damage in most scenarios than 2hands can. I feel like there are more shielders and spears than 2handers at most times as well, or at least a good balance of all melee.
2hand stab that everyone complains about gives you crippling weapon stun if you downblock it, good players take advantage of this at every opportunity. 2hand swords also do much less damage on their stabs than most polearms, so I think its balanced there.
I think instead of nerfs, more 2handers should just be added in that give more variety, something 1handers and polearms have a lot of. That is why I recently recommended dedicated thrusting 2handers be added here: http://forum.meleegaming.com/game-balance-discussion/new-two-handed-thrusting-swords-estoc/
Also if you play a lot of Strat battles, they really display a weakness of 2handers. Going into more coordinated, sustained line fighting with shield walls and pikes, 2handers can be at a big disadvantage, and are vulnerable to cav and ranged if they try to flank the formation. But getting past the pikewall and into their formation with a longsword, you can cause a quick burst of destruction that can help break the lines. Pretty realistic I'd say :D
2hand stab that everyone complains about gives you crippling weapon stun if you downblock it, good players take advantage of this at every opportunity.That crippling weapon stun of yours is very easy to avoid because it only happens to very late hitting stabs. Good 2h players never even get their stabs stunned. Besides, only fast weapons like other 2h are able to punish these things. I can rarely get it done with a MW German Poleaxe and I know exactly when it happens.
lets give them like 40pierce so they can just instagib anyone they hit in the head from 180+ distance and have 2 seconds to float it in the air and walk it into someone.Yea! Give me back my old Sword of Tears aka lolpike with old thrust animation and 38 pierce dmg! Do it!
Yea! Give me back my old Sword of Tears aka lolpike with old thrust animation and 38 pierce dmg! Do it!QQ
good old times
You're piker, your argument is invalid :wink:(click to show/hide)
Oh ya this "CRIPPLING" weapon stun is complete bullshit, doesnt do anything to them in normal day to day play. The short 2h swords can practically spam stabs all day now.It does happen on a normal day, and it is a pain.
Since they changed the stab after the turn rate nerf it has been completely borked and OP.
I was telling cmp about instastab abuse last week and how it basically broke cRPG. He said he reverted it last month on EU, but couldn't do it on NA yet. Not sure if that's actually true on EU, I only play strat battles there and am laggy to begin with. Hell in NA strat battles we still have polestagger for some hilariously awful reason.Well, if u do crazy mouse movement, then all stabs will hit. But i did some testing on the 2h, when it stops boucing/glancing if u just stab straight.
I too preferred the old stabs, and the wonkiness of the new thrust is especially noticeable against people of lower ping. I think polearms and 2handers both got screwed up by it, but there's nothing like dueling a 2hander with 30+ less ping than you and being insta stabbed while their arms are still at their chest. Made thrust chambering much more unreliable too, something I basically had down perfect before, especially against polearms. Pikes often seem to to register hits while being tucked into someones chest mid animation just as often, which makes me rage more than 2hands and is much more common on battle/Strat.
I wouldn't care if the thrust animations were actually sped up visually, but now sometimes stabs seem to register with incomplete animations, which is the real annoying thing.
Being griefed by thrust stun in a normal situation usually involves someone blocking you and their polearm buddy stabbing you before you can block. Its usually fine in 1 vs 1s, but a faster attacker can use thrust stun as a window to get inside your reach and possibly get a hit off, or at least getting a footwork advantage. Regardless the game isn't balanced for duels, but battle, and any moments of helplessness (old polestagger, arrow stun, horse bump) are unfun mechanics that easily get you killed.
Why does it seem like 70% of players use them?
Do YOU use them?
If so, why?
Well, if u do crazy mouse movement, then all stabs will hit. But i did some testing on the 2h, when it stops boucing/glancing if u just stab straight.Well, I probably don't have to tell you that up and down movement is not affected by the turnrate nerf and that due to the high position of the 2h stab animation you just move it above and then down into people's faces at any range and you do not glance. Something that is a lot harder to pull of with a 1h.
I tried it against a 1h, and the distance needed was larger than what the 1h needed, before it stopped glancing/bouncing.
Well, I probably don't have to tell you that up and down movement is not affected by the turnrate nerf and that due to the high position of the 2h stab animation you just move it above and then down into people's faces at any range and you do not glance. Something that is a lot harder to pull of with a 1h.
I wouldn't care if the thrust animations were actually sped up visually, but now sometimes stabs seem to register with incomplete animations, which is the real annoying thing.
2h generally has and advantage of reach ( if you do not count thrusting polearms, such as spears), speed and damage over polearm. They are however more expensive.
However, polearm also has a harder swing animation, making it harder for the enemy to block.
What have you been smoking? Have you even taken a look at polearms? All the high tier polearms do more damage than large majority of 2h and are for the most part superior in range to 2h save for 2h thrust (which I thank the gods for, otherwise polearmers would backpeddle spam even more). Price doesn't matter, upkeep of weapons are negligible anyway.True.
You also keep convincing me that you have absolutely no idea about how this game works. Polearms have the most obvious animations.
"Polearm has harder swing animation, making it harder for the enemy to block." :lol:
Yeah, golf swings are a knavery to block!
If I wasn't polearm I would be 2 hander, because manual directional blocking is one of the key features of the game to me..
I too played 2h for 3 gens or so, easiest time i've ever had in this game.
What I don't understand is why this game rewards players for effortless kills.
Every patch seems to buff / indirectly buff 2h, why is this?
2h always was and still is the most powerful and effective (I'm not saying easiest) class of this game. That has different reasons. Firstly 2h weapons have the best animations, which grant them not only superior reach but also a huge speed bonus. In addition to the high speed and reach they also have the biggest damage output.
Another reason for 2h being such an attractive class is the fact, that it's much easier for 2h to get kills in the early levels of the game. Especially archers, throwers and shielders are heavily gimped till the mid-20 levels, while 2h just needs to stack strenght the first few levels so they can use a high damaging axe and start killing.
Polearms got a lot of nerfs (or got hit hardest by them). 2 direction weapons became much less useful than before. They feel shorter with the glances. The 4 direction spears do pitiful damage with side swings, and still the stabs aren't that great. That used to be balanced with their stagger. I wanted polestagger removed, but they should at least have increase side swing damage on spears to compensate. You can increase damage on spears and increase penalty for holding a shield if its about hoplite balance. A lot of the midrange PA's are overshadowed by 2 handers now, and should get some buffs of their own imothat 2h just suffer lack of defence, no mater what you will do you can block 2 directions no more, and ranged force you to move like wicher.
Anyway I felt I should put some thoughts about the "2 hand is easy mode" I see here. Easy compared to what, shielders? I'm not looking to say anything is OP here, just some things people tend to forget about 2handers. To me shielders have the best of both worlds. They have very fast attacks, omni direction block, ability to get out of clusterfucks and towards their team easier, ability to fight easier outnumbered, ability to defend adequately against ranged and they duel 2 hander/pole very well too imo.
Then most can block like a boss after you break their shield and get their speed up, so they can face hug even easier and force you to double+ block
They have awesome access to pierce/blunt and knockdown
The range is the main weakness, but even that is deceptively long, and as a polearmer I don't feel I can dictate range against a shielder. They can just block until they get close enough. This might be something I can work on as a player but often I want to fight shielders up close so they can't get away because then you get the spin/insta left swing
So I don't think its fair to point at 2 handers and say they have it easy when they have to manually block every incoming attack. Its about risk vs reward..if you have omni block and defence against ranged you should find you do less damage or have some other weakness against 2 handers. How many 2 handers do you see that just spam left/right and get kills? Theres like one guy I know who consistently does that but he's practised that style and it can be easily countered
In duel as a 2h/pole I can just do a little dancing, throw some spam at the same time and that will kill half the playerbase.that will kill half the playerbase no matter which weapon you will use.
....aiming for a 12/33 swashbuckler...
...not to forget that 2h can't stop cavalry while polearm can.
...not to forget that 2h can't stop cavalry while polearm can.
Gosh...stopping cav...seing the misery and despair of the stopped enemy as I first slash his horse, then take my time to slash his panicked face as he tries to stand up...I miss that feeling without my GLB...
...not to forget that 2h can't stop cavalry while polearm can.
Gosh...stopping cav...seing the misery and despair of the stopped enemy as I first slash his horse, then take my time to slash his panicked face as he tries to stand up...I miss that feeling without my GLB...
meh, nub and agiwhore, he needs to boost his str, I would need only one swing to cut this pig in half :rolleyes:
With a decent build you CAN stop cavarly with 2hander. Stop them fucking dead.
With a decent build you CAN stop cavarly with 2hander. Stop them fucking dead.
People use them because they're good. Really, really damn good and in my opinion, the most powerful weapon class in the game if you want something that can perform well in almost any circumstance in any given game mode.
I don't use them. Well, at least not anymore. At this point I'm looking for a challenge, and it's just something I can't get with two-handers. I'll probably end up aiming for a 12/33 swashbuckler once I max out my gen bonus.
I too played 2h for 3 gens or so, easiest time i've ever had in this game.
What I don't understand is why this game rewards players for effortless kills.
Every patch seems to buff / indirectly buff 2h, why is this?
You can stop cavalry with any weapon, it just becomes harder the shorter that weapon is.
Damage is based on speed so if a horse is running at you full throttle, the guy misses his attack and you hit his horse chances are it will die (below destrier)
And if you don't kill the horse, you risk that the attack of the rider hits you.
And now newmy old friends cry about OP 2h, while we, old-hats, miss our old Swords of Tears and Cookies :wink:
You're piker, your argument is invalid :wink:
So much of the melee class imbalance could be solved by simply reverting the ass-backwards spin nerf and stab sweet spot buff.As much as I would like that (I'd be sad to lose the instastab for my 2h lolfeints though), it's probably never going to happen. I recommend just playing 2h or or polearm at the moment.
that will kill half the playerbase no matter which weapon you will use.
Why does it seem like 70% of players use them?
Do YOU use them?
If so, why?
people use it because its overpowered, no disadvantages at all. Broken animations and unrealistic insane reach that outranges pretty much all but the dedicated longspears. Human nature is to gravitate to the path of lease resistance and maximum reward.
change all 2h sword thrusts to polearm animation and then you'd actually see some diversity in 2h. its also fault of lazy, apathetic or incompetent devs/balance team. When swords account for 75% or more of 2h dmg/kills, something is wrong. For one, all unbalanced weapons probably need a weight increase of about 25-50% so they have chance to stun just about any sword or weapon in the game.
All the high tier polearms do more damage than large majority of 2h
and are for the most part superior in range to 2h
Polearms have the most obvious animations.
You also keep convincing me that you have absolutely no idea about how this game works.
What others would understand is that polearms generally do more damage than 2h. Is it true?
I will take the example of a 21 str build with 100 wpf against 60 armor. I will post average damage as can be seen from the crpg calculator. I will only list the weapons which do 25 damage or over. Sorry if I forget some.
Polearm (new 75p and 50b lances excluded):
Long maul: 29
Great Long Bardiche:26.5
Great Long Axe:26
Long War Axe:25
Bec de Corbin:25
Two-Handed:
Great Maul:36
Morningstar:29.5
Mallet:29
Persian Battle Axe:28.5
Great bardiche:27.5
Bar Mace:27
Flamberge:26.5
Great Axe:26.5
War Axe:26.5
War Cleaver:26
Persian War Axe:26
Maul:26
Battle Axe:25
Long Iron Mace:25
that will kill half the playerbase no matter whichweaponteam you will use.
2handers usually don't have a shield. but I generally agree with the rest.Plus 1 Kajia. Best summary I've read yet.
and as for the devs: devs are just normal people, they have to sleep and eat and work. so that's that. also, they don't seem to be in favor of full realism, I was proposing something like that too, but you have to think of all the 2hander players right now who would be fucked if that's ever going to happen. it's certainly dangerous to change things that drastically. as I realized, this version of cRPG is not meant to be realistic.
My generic build alt with a +3 heavy bastard sword does better on the ground than any other combination of weapons class and build thus far. As a proof of concept, I've gone ahead and started blatantly swinging my sword with utter disregard for what the other guy is doing and I still come out with a relatively easy kill.
Two handed swords, at this point, are pretty similar in effect to what they used to be prior to the two-handed animation "nerf." The most minute response and skill level is frankly all it takes to use a two handed weapon at this point, in my opinion. The two handed animations reach out to a little shorter than most pole arm weapons (save the longest, two-directional only purist support pole arms).
Also, fuck lightsaber wiggle, and fuck your drag across the screen super turn stab into people for maximum damage, because pole arms can't do it well, and neither should you.
edit; also fuck your point blank prison shank with a greatsword bs, and fuck you.
edit2; also fuck your stab-swing combo which is fucking stupid, because in no instance should you be able to successfully block a 2h attack THEN be rewarded by having to block again because shit fast speed.
because full plate strength build with a champion cataphract and mw heavy lance with a mw 2 slot polearm on back is skill based
My generic build alt with a +3 heavy bastard sword does better on the ground than any other combination of weapons class and build thus far. As a proof of concept, I've gone ahead and started blatantly swinging my sword with utter disregard for what the other guy is doing and I still come out with a relatively easy kill.visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Tl:dr 2h are powerfull and easy for beginners to learn but are a lot of fun for experienced players too!So WHEN will they be fucking nerfed?
even though i am terrible at melee i would rather use them than the simple sword and board easy modeWrong....just try it. Give a noob a 2h sword and give a a 1h and a shield to another noob... be sure the 2h noob will rip to pieces the 1h/shield noob... so what?.
id rather die a death of being shitty in melee than hiding behind a shield
This threat has mostly been load of steaming kakka! Thats all what i have to say about this.
I might go to 1h and for the first time eva put my 2h in the corner. It simply bores me now and ive never been much of a pole/cav/archer type of person.