cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: tizzango on November 05, 2012, 12:19:16 am

Title: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: tizzango on November 05, 2012, 12:19:16 am
Hey guys. I have an idea on how to reduce the amount of whine caused by nerfing the DGS.

At the moment, for typical DGS abusers (like myself), the next best thing in terms of damage/speed/length is the Sword of War. However it is horrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrendously ugly.

I propose the following; make the Sword of War look less like a shit stain. Remove the sheath, and remodel the handle/grip.

I honestly think if the Sword of War looked like a smaller DGS 2handers would have no trouble reverting to it (At least this is an issue i've found with speaking to other people, including myself).

Sword of War           

weapon length: 121
weight: 3
difficulty: 15
speed rating: 93
weapon length: 121
thrust damage: 23 pierce
swing damage: 40 cut
slots: 2

Danish Greatsword
length: 124
weight: 2.5
difficulty: 15
speed rating: 90
weapon length: 124
thrust damage: 25 pierce
swing damage: 41 cut           


They are more or less the same- besides for the notable superior speed on the SoW which is a huge difference for duelists. So just make it aesthetically pleasing. It might stop the whine.

My personal opinion on this patch, somewhat unrelated
I love this mod and the community, I am very grateful that the devs made cRPG and Strategus possible. I am a huge DGS fan but it got nerfed, and I think the nerf was well deserved. I like weapons with fast-ish speed, good length and powerful as shit. I believe that's the point in 2handers- to have weapons over 115 length with devestating power, at the consequences of having no shield and in turn taking arrows bolts lances to the mothafucken' h34d yo'.

TL:DR: I don't want the DGS to be buffed. I want the SoW to look nicer so people won't mind playing with it. SoW is almost the same as the DGS pre-patch.

Please consider this! :D

Love,
tizzango xoxoox
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: oprah_winfrey on November 05, 2012, 12:25:10 am
I think the sword of war looks good as it is.
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: Bjord on November 05, 2012, 12:30:52 am
Fuck 120+ length weapons, Claymore and Longsword all the way. Just got myself a +3 Claymore too. :wink:
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: Leshma on November 05, 2012, 12:32:14 am
I have MW Longsword and MW GGS. Best of both worlds :)
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: Torben on November 05, 2012, 12:35:53 am
whatabout hbs : )
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: Bjord on November 05, 2012, 12:43:59 am
My feelings regarding 2h as well as its internal balance:

Longsword is the best all-purpose, Claymore is the best high-cut meatgrinder 2h, GGS is a deadly stabbing 2h, DGS feels kinda meh atm, Greatsword is the best of both worlds, Flamberge is only good for battle, Two-handed sword is still a piece of shit, Katana is formidable and even deadlier now, Sword of War is the predecessor of DGS' former glory, Heavy Great Sword - never ever tried it, after 2.5 years even :lol:. These are mostly only highest tier swords.

HBS is likely the best dueling weapon, Bardiche is the best siege weapon (all those shielders in siege not to mention easy to handle despite its unbalanced tag), GGS, DGS, vanilla GS and SoW are probably the best battle weapons still.

All in all, I like my Longsword and Claymore. I do want a Bardiche though, and I'm willing to pay a lot to get one.
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: Torben on November 05, 2012, 12:46:30 am
30 str bardiche cataphrac cav ftw!
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: tizzango on November 05, 2012, 12:47:59 am
@Leshma @Anyone who advocates for the shorter 2handers.

In my opinion, the point of being a 2handed hero is that we have big fucking swords that cleave people's heads off. If it were up to me, i'd have an option to buy vinegar as a throwing weapon bring it on EU_1 and then pour it down people's open neck holes. I love hard hitting stuff. 

I don't want to be a 2hander that has a sword almost the same length as a 1handed sword but uses 2 hands to use it. The longsword is only 106 length, and a Nordic Champion/Knighlty Arming sword is 102. That's only a 4 length deficit. Albeit the 4 cut damage difference in favour of the longsword.

With the 2h playstyle you can play it both ways, which is good I guess. I just prefer the big fucking sword approach :D!

and more to the OP, it's to prevent people whining about the loss of the DGS.
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: Bjord on November 05, 2012, 12:52:10 am
lol

Longsword is actually overpowered atm IMO. The only thing that keeps it balanced is it length, but that is easily compensated for by 6-7 athletics.

Also 2h left swing and thrust is longer than all of 1h anims.
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: tizzango on November 05, 2012, 12:59:32 am
I would rather take 37 cut damage to the body, than 32 cut damage to the head (1h left swing).
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: Teeth on November 05, 2012, 01:07:52 am
At the moment, for typical DGS abusers (like myself), the next best thing in terms of damage/speed/length is the Sword of War. However it is horrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrendously ugly
In what universe does the Danish look better than the Sword of War? I think you should rather change your sense of style than change the Sword of War.
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: Gurnisson on November 05, 2012, 01:09:56 am
I do want a Bardiche though, and I'm willing to pay a lot to get one.

10 million. kthxbye
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: Bjord on November 05, 2012, 01:14:50 am
10 million. kthxbye

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: tizzango on November 05, 2012, 01:17:41 am
Hawww haww.

Here's what I want you to do Teeth:

1) Print off a picture of the Sword of War.
2) Show your parents/guardians
3) Look them in the eyes
4) Tell them you think the Sword of War is a good looking sword. Tell them that you like the way the sheath texture blends in with your character's armour. Tell them that the colour orange is a spectacular colour for a sword handle and sheath. And tell them, that the handle-thing that circles 270 degrees is a great feature because it looks like the sword is smiling at you.

Lie to them, Teeth, like I lied.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: oprah_winfrey on November 05, 2012, 01:21:52 am
Hawww haww.

Here's what I want you to do Teeth:

1) Print off a picture of the Sword of War.
2) Show your parents/guardians
3) Look them in the eyes
4) Tell them you think the Sword of War is a good looking sword. Tell them that you like the way the sheath texture blends in with your character's armour. Tell them that the colour orange is a spectacular colour for a sword handle and sheath. And tell them, that the handle-thing that circles 270 degrees is a great feature because it looks like the sword is smiling at you.

Lie to them, Teeth, like I lied.

Oh, now I get it your 12.
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: Bjord on November 05, 2012, 01:23:03 am
Oh, now I get it you're 12.

sorry had to fix it 8-)
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: tizzango on November 05, 2012, 01:28:38 am
Oh, now I get it your 12.

Lighten up dude. I don't see how you could possibly get upset at a post that wasn't addressing you, nor was it harrassing you or anyone? It was a joke, like he joked about my sense of style.

"I'm not upset I just think you are being immature".

Nothing wrong with being immature at the rife age of 21 and a half xoxoxoxoxoxox
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: Osiris on November 05, 2012, 01:44:06 am
Danish is still a very good sword. if all you care about is looks then continue to use it :D if all you care about is which sword has the best stats then tough crap :P your not going to get a sword remodeled for that :P
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: Teeth on November 05, 2012, 01:47:20 am
Hawww haww.

Here's what I want you to do Teeth:

1) Print off a picture of the Sword of War.
2) Show your parents/guardians
3) Look them in the eyes
4) Tell them you think the Sword of War is a good looking sword. Tell them that you like the way the sheath texture blends in with your character's armour. Tell them that the colour orange is a spectacular colour for a sword handle and sheath. And tell them, that the handle-thing that circles 270 degrees is a great feature because it looks like the sword is smiling at you.

Lie to them, Teeth, like I lied.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

It only blends in with your armor if you use a kuyak with a fat pelt on the back, which should tell you something about your sense of style. It has the colour of leather, not orange. Yes, I love the wide handle thing which I think is called a guard. Atleast it has a sheath, unlike the Danish. The wide guard and the thick blade make this sword look badass and practical, instead of that wimpy, unnecessarily decorated thing that doesn't deserve the name great sword.
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: tizzango on November 05, 2012, 02:23:23 am
Kuyak's are overused, but they are nicely done. I like the Northern/Bandity look man.

Anyway to the point, after much deliberation with my mum my council we have came to the conclusion that the sheath does look kinda cool but the smiley handle(guard) sucks- so I won't disagree with you entirely.


@Osiris

I don't love the look of the Danish, I just think it's a lot nicer than the SoW. I do like playing with a fast-ish weapon that has a decent length, as i've mentionedm so I probably will resort to the SoW regardless of it's look.
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: rufio on November 05, 2012, 02:49:42 am
morningstar better than bardiche imo ;)
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: cmp on November 05, 2012, 03:01:53 am
Sword of War is the second best looking two hander after Heavy Great Sword.
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: Jarlek on November 05, 2012, 03:58:45 pm
morningstar better than bardiche imo ;)
We can no longer be friends.
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: Tibe on November 05, 2012, 04:11:40 pm
Why is nobody talking about the "Two handed Sword"? Atleast by reading the stats it seems pretty badass if you have it MW. May actually trade my MW Great Sword for it. But I still need thinking time.
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: Patoson on November 05, 2012, 04:21:26 pm
I totally agree with the OP - the SoW is terribly ugly and poorly designed, compared to the Danish and German greatswords (and so are they HGS and the Great Sword).

There's a reason why people design new models for games (like Counter-Strike): the original models suck.
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: Gurnisson on November 05, 2012, 09:57:23 pm
DGS users after the patch:

(click to show/hide)


Everyone else:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: Bjord on November 05, 2012, 10:00:54 pm
It's crap, now. :(

Good thing I got a MW Claymore. Same speed as the old GS, same cut as a +0 flamberge and a bit longer than Longsword. It's awesome.
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: Brrrak on November 05, 2012, 10:24:16 pm
DGS users after the patch:

(click to show/hide)


Everyone else:

(click to show/hide)

I don't get it, everyone's Hugh Laurie?
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: Leshma on November 05, 2012, 11:35:15 pm
I don't get it, everyone's Hugh Laurie?

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: Angantyr on November 07, 2012, 04:29:51 pm
It only blends in with your armor if you use a kuyak with a fat pelt on the back, which should tell you something about your sense of style. It has the colour of leather, not orange. Yes, I love the wide handle thing which I think is called a guard. Atleast it has a sheath, unlike the Danish. The wide guard and the thick blade make this sword look badass and practical, instead of that wimpy, unnecessarily decorated thing that doesn't deserve the name great sword.
Perhaps the overuse of DGS have made it hang out the throat of parts of the community a bit? :wink: I used to have it the same way with all great swords about six months after WB release when it was suddenly about the only weapon you'd find on the Native duel servers, to the point where I even found the sword ugly.. Don't really have a problem with it anymore.

Each to their own, but where exactly do you see decorations on the Danish Great Sword, I don't see even one? :) Though visibly late period this is a sword with a clearly utilitarian design, the ricasso being for half-swording, the pommel, grip, crossguard, fuller, edge, ridge and point otherwise practical and undecorated.


Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: Kafein on November 08, 2012, 01:55:21 am
Even though great swords with scabbards in the back look immensely more cool than without, it's not very realistic.

Those swords are longer than your arm, how are you supposed to get them out of the scabbard ? Doing so would be extremely awkward and slow. I remember reading from a more or less trustworthy source that back scabbards were in fact never used for melee weapons except a few non-European exceptions but I don't remember which website it was.


So actually this means we shouldn't put weapons on our backs at all. I suggest to make all weapons without a side sheath unsheathable.
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: Angantyr on November 08, 2012, 02:51:33 pm
Yes, there's no support for (Europeans) carrying longer arms on the back in neither the archaeological nor the historical record.
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: OpenPalm on November 09, 2012, 09:29:25 am
I think the real question is... is there evidence for pikemen leaping around in battle, deftly stabbing enemies heads in the fray, taking them on mano-a-mano?
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: Falka on November 09, 2012, 01:18:00 pm
Hey guys. I have an idea on how to reduce the amount of whine caused by nerfing the DGS.

I have watched recently Wayne pwning everyone on the server with German GS. Maybe he's just that good, unlike some others who cried so hard, but it looked like he had no problem with new stats of GS. So maybe Danish and German are still decent weapons and there is no need to whine... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: Bjord on November 09, 2012, 01:49:05 pm
He's also sporting a 27/15 build with only a tribal warrior outfit, I think. Not sure.

That would explain the efficiency; high damage coupled with next to no wpf penalty and high speed bonus due to movement speed.

Most greatsworders use 15.0+ weight on armours too.
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: BlindGuy on November 09, 2012, 01:56:00 pm
The SoW looks cool. The Danish, apart from having a stupid name (No Greatswords that looked like that were developed in Denmark or are mentioned in any Danish military treatcize that I have found), looks like a ceremonial sword that would shatter on impact, due to it's length and that the blade would far outweigh the pommel, making it also unbalanced. That many fans of this sword watch Anime I don't doubt, since it is a fantasy weapon, but don't say the SoW looks bad. It doesn't. It looks fairly realistic and very badass. Admitedly, to sheath or unsheath this weapon would take unslinging the sheath from the back, upending, then reslinging the sheath while taking hold of the sword. This would probably take a little longer than animations in crpg XD
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: Patoson on November 09, 2012, 01:59:56 pm
I got myself a Sword of War, and now I admit that the model is really nice. It's the traditional design for a greatsword, I guess. But the textures are still poor, even on the highest settings.
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: Falka on November 09, 2012, 02:47:41 pm
But the textures are still poor, even on the highest settings.
Textures are plainly awful, blade looks weird, all in all I don't like SoW. Danish, German and HC looks much better in my opinion.
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: Angantyr on November 09, 2012, 04:55:19 pm
The SoW looks cool. The Danish, apart from having a stupid name (No Greatswords that looked like that were developed in Denmark or are mentioned in any Danish military treatcize that I have found), looks like a ceremonial sword that would shatter on impact, due to it's length and that the blade would far outweigh the pommel, making it also unbalanced. That many fans of this sword watch Anime I don't doubt, since it is a fantasy weapon, but don't say the SoW looks bad. It doesn't. It looks fairly realistic and very badass. Admitedly, to sheath or unsheath this weapon would take unslinging the sheath from the back, upending, then reslinging the sheath while taking hold of the sword. This would probably take a little longer than animations in crpg XD
Wrong on all accounts, actually :)

The Oakeshott Type XVIIIe ('the Dane') is a XVIII variant found several places in 15th century Medieval Denmark and Scandinavia.

(click to show/hide)

Receives very good critique at the myarmoury test of a modern replica here  (http://www.myarmoury.com/review_at1592.php). And here (http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=7984), another description from the same place, which is a leading website on historical armaments.

Quote
The Dane is an example of one of the more advanced or extreme blade designs in the history of the European sword

Quote
This is a sword that really breaks the misconception of the slow and awkward two-hander


Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: BlindGuy on November 10, 2012, 05:57:28 pm


Receives very good critique at the myarmoury test of a modern replica here  (http://www.myarmoury.com/review_at1592.php).

Sorry, i stopped reading their description when they got one of the basic laws of turning moments wrong in the 2nd paragraph XD

Maybe in future rely on sources who finished school!

Also, the measurements used there in comparisson to cRPG would make the male model in cRPG barely 5 feet high...some Danes...
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: Angantyr on November 10, 2012, 06:16:06 pm
Please be more specific, what basic law did the author get wrong and where? And what do you mean about the measurements compared to cRPG, that the model is too long in-game?
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: Camaris on November 10, 2012, 07:05:34 pm
Sorry, i stopped reading their description when they got one of the basic laws of turning moments wrong in the 2nd paragraph XD

Maybe in future rely on sources who finished school!

Also, the measurements used there in comparisson to cRPG would make the male model in cRPG barely 5 feet high...some Danes...
And you are the pro-scientist?
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: Strider on November 10, 2012, 07:26:20 pm
I completely agree. The only reason I don't use the Sword of War is because of the bigass shealth on the back. It's just not part of my style/look. I would definatly love it if the shealth on the back was completely removed.
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: Paul on November 11, 2012, 02:36:15 pm
He means this:
The long grip really helps to control the long blade. A large sword will typically be slower than a shorter one, due to the fact that the further away the tip is from the center of rotation, the slower it moves. Having a longer grip allows the user to balance this out better, and leads to a very quick blade despite its size.
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: Kafein on November 12, 2012, 05:08:09 pm
He means this:
The long grip really helps to control the long blade. A large sword will typically be slower than a shorter one, due to the fact that the further away the tip is from the center of rotation, the slower it moves. Having a longer grip allows the user to balance this out better, and leads to a very quick blade despite its size.

I would like to ask a physicist how the laws of the universe should be changed to make this true.


One thing is evident though, a longer blade will put more weight further away from the grip, unbalancing the weapon. I may be wrong but I think if you want to reduce the total weight of the weapon and keep the same balance and blade, it's better to make the grip longer and reduce the weight of the pommel. Of course if the grip is too long, the weapon becomes awkward to use.
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: Angantyr on November 13, 2012, 02:42:59 pm
Thank you for the clarification, Paul.

@Blindguy, perhaps getting some physics theory wrong shouldn't make you disregard everything a historical fencing instructor says about the handling characteristics of a weapon he's actually put to practical use?
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: EponiCo on November 14, 2012, 03:04:25 am
I would like to ask a physicist how the laws of the universe should be changed to make this true.


One thing is evident though, a longer blade will put more weight further away from the grip, unbalancing the weapon. I may be wrong but I think if you want to reduce the total weight of the weapon and keep the same balance and blade, it's better to make the grip longer and reduce the weight of the pommel. Of course if the grip is too long, the weapon becomes awkward to use.

Shouldn't the center of mass move at the same speed (in m/s) given the same strength of wielder for both swords (if the weight equal)? Then the longer sword should have a smaller angular speed (=how fast you can swing), I guess. Also the longer sword is probably heavier (=slower).
In a wider grip you have more power (but your hands must move faster to compensate but I think that is not the problem).
Title: Re: Reducing the whine for DGS users.
Post by: Artyem on December 15, 2012, 03:02:48 am
buff 2h swings it takz 2 hitts 2 kil enmy wit 2h sord shud alwyz b 1